Iraq Thinks About Leclerc MBT

[Almaleki]

.....

my comment : Iraqi MoD Minister Had a look on the Leclerc Tanks Factory ... he liked them ... ( Addressed from the Mod TV show on Iraqi Governmental Channel ) But still they will be too expernsive for Iraq ... and after Georgia Criss ... well who knows will France really reduce her Best Tank Arsenal to just 100 Tank that looks long shot for me ...

the Article :

According to the French-writing “Zone militaire” (www.opex360.com) website, and according to the French newly-born White paper, the number of Leclerc main battle tanks (MBTs) should decrease down to a hundred only.

These tanks which are phased out of service might be sold on the secondhand market. It could represent a good bargain for a country in need of ground force development. France expects an Iraqi delegation to come for ordnance procurement.

The Iraqi government has already stated that they were willing to buy secondhand “Gazelle” helicopters from the French ALAT (British AAC or American AAVN – means Army Aviation) as they have to replace them by some “Tigre” choppers. Moreover, they would be interested in buying some operationally capable MBTs at a lower price, i.e. Leclercs.

However, the future negotiations are deemed to be likely to stall for the Iraqi government does not have much room for maneuvers . For instance, the delegation might try to have the Iraqi debt canceled while the French might be paid cash.

Morocco might be interested in buying some Leclerc main battle tanks as well. Rabat is thought to be willing to get a fifty-tank batch even if they had already preferred some F-16s rather than RAFALE fighter a/c before.

Taken from this article (in French): http://www.opex360.com/2008/07/18/des-chars-leclerc-en-irak/


......

NOTE : Sarkozy has Invested about Iraq Paying in Oil for Weapons ...

Cheers ,
Almaleki

[Ryan UK]

Hmm Leclercs odd choice

Iraq has just purchased M1A1s why would they now consider Leclercs

Has the Leclerc ever been involved in battle e.g Invasion of Iraq? If so what was its success rate?

[Grim901]

Hmm Leclercs odd choice

Iraq has just purchased M1A1s why would they now consider Leclercs

Has the Leclerc ever been involved in battle e.g Invasion of Iraq? If so what was its success rate?

No it hasn't seen major action, only peacekeeping stuff in Kosovo and Lebanon. Apparently they were judged "satisfactory."

Why would they have been in the invasion of Iraq? The French weren't in that war if I remember correctly. If you meant the first gulf war, they weren't in service then.

[eckherl]

I mentioned this earlier in a prior post about possible Leclerc purchases for Iraq, the French tried but could not work out the deal, possible U.S intervention. There is also the mention out there that is coming to light that France also tried to sell Leclercs to Saudi Arabia for AMX 30 replacement but with frustration on both sides of the table the Saudis have looked to other countries.

[Duffy]

This is ether an old story or wishful thinking,Iraq requested 280 there training for them now hear a quote below and link .

“Currently, the first four American tanks are at Besmaya Range Complex, with another 18 to be delivered within the next month. The 22 tanks will be used to train 11 Iraqi tank crews in each of thirteen future 45-day rotations. Iraq has purchased 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks, scheduled for delivery in August 2010.”

M1 Abrams Tanks for Iraq (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/)

[Ryan UK]

No it hasn't seen major action, only peacekeeping stuff in Kosovo and Lebanon. Apparently they were judged "satisfactory."

Why would they have been in the invasion of Iraq? The French weren't in that war if I remember correctly. If you meant the first gulf war, they weren't in service then.

Apologies I should have made it clear, I meant the 1st gulf war.

[eckherl]

This is ether an old story or wishful thinking,Iraq requested 280 there training for them now hear a quote below and link .

“Currently, the first four American tanks are at Besmaya Range Complex, with another 18 to be delivered within the next month. The 22 tanks will be used to train 11 Iraqi tank crews in each of thirteen future 45-day rotations. Iraq has purchased 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks, scheduled for delivery in August 2010.”

M1 Abrams Tanks for Iraq (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/)

What does the M1A1 purchase have to do with what is being discussed, Leclercs along with other tank models have been offered to Iraq and that is not wishful thinking.

Also, another M1A1 140 tank batch has already been approved, training is not only taking place in Iraq, logistical, maintenance and other forms of officer training is being conducted in the U.S.

[Duffy]

What does the M1A1 purchase have to do with what is being discussed, Leclercs along with other tank models have been offered to Iraq and that is not wishful thinking.

Also, another M1A1 140 tank batch has already been approved, training is not only taking place in Iraq, logistical, maintenance and other forms of officer training is being conducted in the U.S.

Do you think they can afford them. I would think Iraq has quite a shopping list but how deep are there pockets?

[GI-Gizmo]

I mentioned this earlier in a prior post about possible Leclerc purchases for Iraq, the French tried but could not work out the deal, possible U.S intervention. There is also the mention out there that is coming to light that France also tried to sell Leclercs to Saudi Arabia for AMX 30 replacement but with frustration on both sides of the table the Saudis have looked to other countries.

The Saudi formula for mechanized warfare is very odd, a logistical nightmare. I think they have an armored brigade with US equip, one with French equip, one with Russian and so on and so on. It makes no sense to have so many different platforms [MBTs, IFV/APCs, SPA, etc.] going at once.
The interoptobility, parts and engineering problems must be immense.
Sorry so off-subject, the posts about Saudi and tanks just made me think about the mixed brigades they have.

[eckherl]

Do you think they can afford them. I would think Iraq has quite a shopping list but how deep are there pockets?

Actually they could afford them if they would of gone that route, oil is one heck of a bargaining tool. They also came close to purchasing T-84 but I suspect that we threw a monkey wrench into that plan also, spoils go to the war victors.

[Duffy]

Actually they could afford them if they would of gone that route, oil is one heck of a bargaining tool. They also came close to purchasing T-84 but I suspect that we threw a monkey wrench into that plan also, spoils go to the war victors.

Yes I suppose it does. I hope it works out for Iraq in the long run the Abraham's probably would not have been my first choice for them.

PS Didn't mean to but into your discussion.

[eckherl]

The Saudi formula for mechanized warfare is very odd, a logistical nightmare. I think they have an armored brigade with US equip, one with French equip, one with Russian and so on and so on. It makes no sense to have so many different platforms [MBTs, IFV/APCs, SPA, etc.] going at once.
The interoptobility, parts and engineering problems must be immense.
Sorry so off-subject, the posts about Saudi and tanks just made me think about the mixed brigades they have.

Nothing with Russian land equipment so far but that will more than likely change due to Saudi not going with Leclerc and a host of other modern French vehicles. Russia currently has a hand shake agreement for BMP3 and T-90 purchases with also possibly the sale of S400. T-90 series will replace AMX-30 series and M-60 series tanks, the units that currently field these are your secondary units (reserve). The M1 series will still be their premier tank as evidence to the recent signing with General Dynamics of a major upgrade package that will be handled in two parts, they will also be upgrading their M113 series vehicles.

And yes, I to would have to say that with all the different models in circulation or what is in storage could cause a logistical nightmare at times.

[Waylander]

I would go as far as saying that it is for sure that this is going to cause a logistical nightmare in times of need.

I just can imagine the difficulties of a field maintenance point which has to handle 3 different types of tanks alone, not to talk of all the other vehicles.

I don't start with the logistics system which has to provide the spares and ammo...

[eckherl]

Yes I suppose it does. I hope it works out for Iraq in the long run the Abraham's probably would not have been my first choice for them.

PS Didn't mean to but into your discussion.

Which tank would you of preferred that they go with, and feel free to contribute anytime that you wish, your opinion is important to us also.

[eckherl]

I would go as far as saying that it is for sure that this is going to cause a logistical nightmare in times of need.

I just can imagine the difficulties of a field maintenance point which has to handle 3 different types of tanks alone, not to talk of all the other vehicles.

I don't start with the logistics system which has to provide the spares and ammo...

It could get real scary during a war time situation.

[Waylander]

As for the Iraqis going with Abrams.

One shouldn't underestimate moral.
Their tankers got hammered by western designs in 2 wars.
I bet that wasn't healthy for the opinion they have of their Ts.
And it is unimportant if this reputation is deserved or not.

Abrams or any other modern western MBT gives them the feeling to finally have the advantages they lacked during ODS and OIF. That there is much more to a capable armored coprs than a modern MBT is unimportant when one condisders moral.

Actually under current circumstances I think Abrams were the best choice.
They were able to get them fast and with american troops still in country organizing training and support for the new Abrams units is much easier.

If one would put aside the current political situation a Leclerc Tropicaine or a Leopard 2 might have been as good a choice as the Abrams.
Maybe even a bit better as they can live with a reduced logistical tail (for example less fuel hungry and it is easier to get good mechanicians for the diesels than for a turbine).

[eckherl]

The M1 series turbine will eventually get phased out of service and we will have a engine pact that gets at least 30% better fuel consumption at the minimum, this is part of the TIGER engine pact program that Iraq and Australia are signed on to with the U.S, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will soon follow suite if they already have not.

New M1 series engine pact designation is: LV100-5

[Duffy]

Which tank would you of preferred that they go with, and feel free to contribute anytime that you wish, your opinion is important to us also.

eckherl I was going to say something along the T-72 lines.being that some of the former tankers would be familiar with the and maintenance is simpler. The turbine was a concern. I wasn't aware of the LV100-5 engine pac. Western equipment don't like to be neglected.

@ Waylander the moral is a good point but there a flip side to that. If they think the loses were only do to equipment and go into battle over confident there going to get slaughtered again.You also make a great point about US troops being in country for training and support on the Abraham's.

[Waylander]

@Duffy
Sure, as I said a good armoured coprs needs more than just new shiny tanks but at least it is a start.

I would also think that one might be able to retrain them in more western orientated tank tactics more easily if you put them into a new tank instead of one they are familiar with. Much easier than to fall into bad habits.

Out of personal concerns about the T-90 family I wouldn't opt for them if I could chose.
On the other hand they are defenitely worth a look if other options are too expensive as they offer alot bang for the buck.
And as you said i is easier to convert T-72 trained crews and maintenance personal. But I don't think this is a big point as it isn't that hard to train them onto other tanks instead.

@Eckherl
Thanks for the infos.
I didn't know that the plans for a new power pack have matured that much.
Do you have further infos about the new one?

[eckherl]

I would have to agree inregards to moral, the Iraqi T-72 did not really give them the true offensive capability that they have now with the M1A1, match this with a turret that offers additional room for the crew, better training and moral sky rockets.

The LV100-5 has been around for awhile now, this is the actual engine pack tested in the now shelved Crusader SPH project, this engine actually runs on fewer parts and I should add that its also a gas turbine engine. We should see it within 5 to 7 years, this is when Honeywell predicts that we will not get too much rebuild life cycles out of the old GT engine pacs.

[DavidDCM]

Is there an approximate number on how many of the current Iraqi tankers are veteran personnel who already served under Saddam in '03 and how many of them are new recruits?

[Duffy]

Double post

[Duffy]

Is there an approximate number on how many of the current Iraqi tankers are veteran personnel who already served under Saddam in '03 and how many of them are new recruits?

This is pritty dated, but I dont see to much info out there on personal. I will keep an eye out.
"Although the vast majority of officers, NCOs and about 60 percent of the soldiers recruited had previous military experience, “we had our work cut out for us,”

Operation Iraqi Freedom (http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/training_closeup/050104.htm)

[eckherl]

This is pritty dated, but I dont see to much info out there on personal. I will keep an eye out.
"Although the vast majority of officers, NCOs and about 60 percent of the soldiers recruited had previous military experience, “we had our work cut out for us,”

Operation Iraqi Freedom (http://www.tradoc.army.mil/pao/training_closeup/050104.htm)

I would say that the 60% figure is probably close.

[Almaleki]

This is ether an old story or wishful thinking,Iraq requested 280 there training for them now hear a quote below and link .

“Currently, the first four American tanks are at Besmaya Range Complex, with another 18 to be delivered within the next month. The 22 tanks will be used to train 11 Iraqi tank crews in each of thirteen future 45-day rotations. Iraq has purchased 140 M1A1 Abrams tanks, scheduled for delivery in August 2010.”

M1 Abrams Tanks for Iraq (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/)

Iraq Ordered Annual Buy of 140 Tank ... salvaged from U.S. Army Stocks ... with new Things ,,, Tiger is on of these ... 22 Tanks were Leased from the United States Army That is in Iraq All ready .. Iraq will take 35 Tanks every 3.5 Months .... An American Blog Editor named DJ Elliot have already said that if Iraq wants to finish its 60 Armored Battalion they will need annual Sales until 2022 .... So ,, Bought/loaned/donated Tanks from other countries would be an open Choice ... there is Korea ( K1 , K1A1 , Old salvaged M48 ) , France ( Leclerc , AMXs ) , Greece ( M60 . M48 ) , Czech ( T-72 ) and other Nato countries under CFE

cheers

[Almaleki]

eckherl I was going to say something along the T-72 lines.being that some of the former tankers would be familiar with the and maintenance is simpler. The turbine was a concern. I wasn't aware of the LV100-5 engine pac. Western equipment don't like to be neglected.

@ Waylander the moral is a good point but there a flip side to that. If they think the loses were only do to equipment and go into battle over confident there going to get slaughtered again.You also make a great point about US troops being in country for training and support on the Abraham's.

.....

The Iraqi Army Officials Hate something named " T-72 "/ " T-55 " Because the were slammed Hardly in 3 Wars with those Tanks ... not i say the are wrong ... because they are right ... T-72 cant move against Saudi Tanks and it would be outnumbered from Iranian Tanks .... it is simply " Old Fashion " as soon as possible i think that Iraq will retire this RUBBISH ... and as soon as these 2100 Tank iraq is thinking about ( Target of Phase2/3 60 Armor BN )

Morale is a Changing Point .... Exactly for Arabs .... not like Any other Countries ,, Arabs even before Islam were know for Bravery .... and Morale did well ... Maybe Iraqis Lost 3 Wars cuz of Equipment but the real reason was that Iraqis Did not have Morale ... I know people Shot themselves to not fire on other muslim ( Gulf War 1 )and none knew what was the reason of us Against 30 Nation ( But Saddam !!! )

So dont Underestimate Morale ... Arabic wars / wins were all driven by morale and songs ...

Cheers ( I know i am talking like a racist )

[Almaleki]

As for the Best Tank for Iraq is Defenitly Abrams ... but not all of the 2100 Tanks should be M1A1

[Duffy]

.....

The Iraqi Army Officials Hate something named " T-72 "/ " T-55 " Because the were slammed Hardly in 3 Wars with those Tanks ... not i say the are wrong ... because they are right ... T-72 cant move against Saudi Tanks and it would be outnumbered from Iranian Tanks .... it is simply " Old Fashion " as soon as possible i think that Iraq will retire this RUBBISH ... and as soon as these 2100 Tank iraq is thinking about ( Target of Phase2/3 60 Armor BN )

Morale is a Changing Point .... Exactly for Arabs .... not like Any other Countries ,, Arabs even before Islam were know for Bravery .... and Morale did well ... Maybe Iraqis Lost 3 Wars cuz of Equipment but the real reason was that Iraqis Did not have Morale ... I know people Shot themselves to not fire on other muslim ( Gulf War 1 )and none knew what was the reason of us Against 30 Nation ( But Saddam !!! )

So dont Underestimate Morale ... Arabic wars / wins were all driven by morale and songs ...

Cheers ( I know i am talking like a racist )


Almaleki You don't sound like a racist at all. I never underestimated moral. I did over look it. I was pointing out that over confidence can be just as dangerous.

[eckherl]

Iraq Ordered Annual Buy of 140 Tank ... salvaged from U.S. Army Stocks ... with new Things ,,, Tiger is on of these ... 22 Tanks were Leased from the United States Army That is in Iraq All ready .. Iraq will take 35 Tanks every 3.5 Months .... An American Blog Editor named DJ Elliot have already said that if Iraq wants to finish its 60 Armored Battalion they will need annual Sales until 2022 .... So ,, Bought/loaned/donated Tanks from other countries would be an open Choice ... there is Korea ( K1 , K1A1 , Old salvaged M48 ) , France ( Leclerc , AMXs ) , Greece ( M60 . M48 ) , Czech ( T-72 ) and other Nato countries under CFE

cheers

I have mentioned this also during prior posts that we could see M-60 series tanks serving in Iraq until additional modern equipment is available. For the ROK K1, that would be stretching it, current plans with priority is to get rid of all M-47 and M-48 tanks serving in ROK units, bring the K1 up to K1A1 firepower, K2 will be a slow process for the ROK with maybe a hold on mass production due to Global Economics and other priorities. You guys could still make the Ukrainians happy and go the T-84 route, just make sure that you guys pick up some BM42M with your purchase, either alloy should work.;)

[Almaleki]

Thx All ...

Well Iraq Mentioned Before that he is really interested in Co-Production with SK .... ( i hate to Add S with it ,, Korea was / is One country for me ) ... well ,, the Ukres and all of the West Russia Countries had Disappointed Iraqi Military Officials from 2005 ... Serbia , Ukrania and Czech ... their Deadlines were not as great as there Offers ... but not less than that every option is Opened ... But a Mix of M1A1 and Salvaged/Old/Donated Tanks such as Leclercs , M48 , T72 . T91 , M60 , M47 will be Great to be second line to M1A1s ,,, but if Iraq want to Build its Tank Force in 15 Years Timeline ... well ,, why do we stress ourselves in Logistics ... ??? Lets Buy 2100 Tank ( even the economic Side looks Far !!! )

Cheers