SAS training Afghan troops Ruled out

[Rayna]

From the article i posted yestersay, US: Fight for us, you may need us - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10586805) came this one, ruling out the NZSAS training Afghan troops. Key rules out SAS training Afghan troops - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10587050) I find it interesting that Key has grown some balls so to speak and telling the USA "no" after his stance backing Don Brash's views on Iraq when it came to issue and then withdrawing his statements once we realized how sour it was. Its good to see that the party isn't just doing everything Uncle Sam wants anymore.


I find it interesting that they wanted us to train their troops, a country that even after the fall of the teliban opted for "Family Law" which legalized martial rape and much else. While i do believe we have a part in assisting the US in attempting introduce a democracy and eliminating the terrorism in the middle east but I really don't think it is anywhere near appropriate for us to help train the Afghan military when they still seem to opt back to anti democratic ways when they are no longer under such ruling.

What is everyones thoughts?

[OPSSG]

I don't think that it is unusual for the US to request for more contributions from their allies (at their time of need), unless your country wants to adopt a non-aligned position - which will carry with it certain implications, like the need to increase your defence spending. You can always opt out from the call for help - just don't expect the US to opt in to help you in your time of need.

IMO, be glad that your SAS is well regarded enough to be requested for.

[Rayna]

I don't think that it is unusual for the US to request for more contributions from their allies (at their time of need), unless your country wants to adopt a non-aligned position - which will carry with it certain implications, like the need to increase your defence spending. You can always opt out from the call for help - just don't expect the US to opt in to help you in your time of need.

IMO, be glad that your SAS is well regarded enough to be requested for.

Oh no I not outraged, as I mentioned I support troops there supporting the USA and other countries that are there. Helping eliminate the Taliban and other terrorist groups, protect certain village, govt officials etc Just not in the line of training afghan troops. I support what they have been doing already but what i was meaning when our government saying no. In the instance of the their "help us or else attitude" can be described as bullying.

[OPSSG]

In the instance of the their "help us or else attitude" can be described as bullying.

We both live in small states and both our countries need external security partners. We cannot choose what happens in the external environment but we can choose how we react to such requests.

IMO, the US 'bullying' is very mild compared to actions by other lesser powers. Read up about Indonesia-Singapore relations in relation to the 2007 sand dispute (read post #36 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-defense/new-zealand-invasion-8720-3/) of the link provided) and the arbitrary arrest arrest of a Singapore citizen that occurred. That is bullying.

[dave_kiwi]

Of course one has appreciate the irony here - under Labour, the 'government' that 'killed' ANZUS, the SAS deployed three (3) times to the 'Ghan -- and I think from memory, with a lot less publicity than now.

The SAS, during this time, received a Presidential Commendation, and a NZ VC was awarded.

In this morning's NZ Herald, John Key is stating its a "line ball call" re SAS deploying -- my guess will be, now that Key has "thumb'd his nose" at the Yanks, the SAS will go.

[Rayna]

We both live in small states and both our countries need external security partners. We cannot choose what happens in the external environment but we can choose how we react to such requests.

IMO, the US 'bullying' is very mild compared to actions by other lesser powers. Read up about Indonesia-Singapore relations in relation to the 2007 sand dispute (read post #36 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-defense/new-zealand-invasion-8720-3/) of the link provided) and the arbitrary arrest arrest of a Singapore citizen that occurred. That is bullying.

Point taken, of course its mild.I don't think the US, would ever stoop down that low if so, other nations wouldn't be to happy.

And update of this issue SAS going back to war a line-ball call - PM - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10587295)

My opinion would be of course to keep the SAS there but not in training their troops, both Labour and National agree on this. If we had to, have our other troops train not the SAS. Keep assisting in other areas covert and overt.


Of course one has appreciate the irony here - under Labour, the 'government' that 'killed' ANZUS, the SAS deployed three (3) times to the 'Ghan -- and I think from memory, with a lot less publicity than now.

The SAS, during this time, received a Presidential Commendation, and a NZ VC was awarded.

In this morning's NZ Herald, John Key is stating its a "line ball call" re SAS deploying -- my guess will be, now that Key has "thumb'd his nose" at the Yanks, the SAS will go.

That's what i was thinking :) ... And i think that labour did more than they were letting on as well. We sent troops at the start and didn't even tell anyone... I think Nicky Hager was suppose to publish something about their secret war on terror but that was a few years back when Hallow Men was released but this far ahead now i guess not.

[p.l.rue]

From the article i posted yestersay, US: Fight for us, you may need us - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10586805) came this one, ruling out the NZSAS training Afghan troops. Key rules out SAS training Afghan troops - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10587050) I find it interesting that Key has grown some balls so to speak and telling the USA "no" after his stance backing Don Brash's views on Iraq when it came to issue and then withdrawing his statements once we realized how sour it was. Its good to see that the party isn't just doing everything Uncle Sam wants anymore.


I find it interesting that they wanted us to train their troops, a country that even after the fall of the teliban opted for "Family Law" which legalized martial rape and much else. While i do believe we have a part in assisting the US in attempting introduce a democracy and eliminating the terrorism in the middle east but I really don't think it is anywhere near appropriate for us to help train the Afghan military when they still seem to opt back to anti democratic ways when they are no longer under such ruling.

What is everyones thoughts? The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

[Rayna]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

You are right, They are able to fund these small terrorist groups by higher pay compared to the Afghan army by drug trafficking.
The issue with pay is for them to be able to pay more, they would have to raise taxes to a already deprived nation or cut spending on things that need it more than ever the result of the second is similar. Another issue would be if they did rise pay for the countries military, the opposite would do the same. So in a way, us training them would be counter productive.

[steve33]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

You mention the UK on a friday night through to sunday well if you are talking about people getting drunk and being louts not everyone does that and if you think living under strict sharia law is the way to go you should try living in an area controlled by the taliban in Pakistan i,m sure you would have a great time.

Who cares about Afganistan? well maybe after a terror attack planned by Al Qaeda from Afganistan kills a member of you family you will care.

[steve33]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

As for cobbling together an AK from a variety of sources they are far better funded than having to resort to that they are making millions from drugs.

[p.l.rue]

You mention the UK on a friday night through to sunday well if you are talking about people getting drunk and being louts not everyone does that and if you think living under strict sharia law is the way to go you should try living in an area controlled by the taliban in Pakistan i,m sure you would have a great time.

Who cares about Afganistan? well maybe after a terror attack planned by Al Qaeda from Afganistan kills a member of you family you will care.
Firstly Arganistan is not a country but a collection of tribes in which NATO has placed itself in the middle.Unfortunately our millitary might is wasted on outdated concepts of design and application. The shoot and scoot tactics of the anti government forces means that Nato is on the back foot all the time though there are notable successes generally at the expense of the local population. If NATO pulled out they would start shooting at one another again. These people love conflict,200yrs ago the uk lost an army there doesn't our the British parl;iament read history, you cannot tactically do anything with a location which is in the stone age.As for international terrorism thats in the hands of God not man. If you think you can shoot these people into submission I suggest the people who would like an object lesson join the british army or the us marines they're good and show me the way. Engleesi britanee maffi muhkt as the saying goes

[Rayna]

Firstly Arganistan is not a country but a collection of tribes in which NATO has placed itself in the middle.Unfortunately our millitary might is wasted on outdated concepts of design and application. The shoot and scoot tactics of the anti government forces means that Nato is on the back foot all the time though there are notable successes generally at the expense of the local population. If NATO pulled out they would start shooting at one another again. These people love conflict,200yrs ago the uk lost an army there doesn't our the British parl;iament read history, you cannot tactically do anything with a location which is in the stone age.As for international terrorism thats in the hands of God not man. If you think you can shoot these people into submission I suggest the people who would like an object lesson join the british army or the us marines they're good and show me the way. Engleesi britanee maffi muhkt as the saying goes

Something i feel i should bring up here is you are looking at the political aspects of it. How about the serious human rights violations? Woman are forbidden education under Taliban rule and a few other extremists groups. Woman who are caught are flogged and have acid thrown on their faces. Woman are confined to their homes. Woman have their clitoris's cut out (so they aren't able to enjoy intercourse) and usually in a very unpleasant manner. In area's where the Taliban rules, they have restricted schools to teaching only what they believed should be taught. Their interpretation of the Quran. So I am someone who cares about Afghanistan because I take stuff like this personally.

There are so many people that want to get out and don't want to be under that ruling. A few years ago we accepted a few refuges. They came here not knowing English but he was encouraging his the woman in his family to get an education, get out working and learn English wanting to change. I have run in to some of those girls today, now they fully speak English got partners and are at polytechnics learning and starting new lives.

But that aside what we are doing here Old traditions die hard, We can't get them to change after only a few years of being there. How they live, think and act will take time to change. Generations.

[p.l.rue]

Something i feel i should bring up here is you are looking at the political aspects of it. How about the serious human rights violations? Woman are forbidden education under Taliban rule and a few other extremists groups. Woman who are caught are flogged and have acid thrown on their faces. Woman are confined to their homes. Woman have their clitoris's cut out (so they aren't able to enjoy intercourse) and usually in a very unpleasant manner. In area's where the Taliban rules, they have restricted schools to teaching only what they believed should be taught. Their interpretation of the Quran. So I am someone who cares about Afghanistan because I take stuff like this personally.

There are so many people that want to get out and don't want to be under that ruling. A few years ago we accepted a few refuges. They came here not knowing English but he was encouraging his the woman in his family to get an education, get out working and learn English wanting to change. I have run in to some of those girls today, now they fully speak English got partners and are at polytechnics learning and starting new lives.

But that aside what we are doing here Old traditions die hard, We can't get them to change after only a few years of being there. How they live, think and act will take time to change. Generations.
Please pass on
Hi Rayna
I hear where you're coming from. Unfortunately society in the mddle east, Baluchistan and Afganistan isn't. There is also a case that a greater part of the male part of UK males would agree with the Arab-eeya view of women as non beings other than the focus of mans will. Women will get equal justice when wealth is spread across their daily bread and famillies have time to stand back and enjoy the view. The daily grind of existance does not allow women to find an equal place. There was hope as a female judge/cleric was doing valuable work, but she was slotted a while ago. This was an incredibly beatiful area,rugged mountains coming down to the lush areas below, the evening silence broken now with high flying jets waiting to be called in for ground support requirements. The obscenity continues. That so much wealth can be thrown into destruction when it could be used to build. The inconsistencies are profound, weapon systems that are recycled no part numbers match (everything has to be humped across the border areas ) and female children used to check the viabillity of a growing area incase of anti-p mines. Some of the ied's shells have origionated from unguarded ammo dumps in Iraq, Iran is not helping and the border areas of Pakistan are leaky as hell. I know where you're coming from Rayna. Have u Pashti or bolluch origions. P

[Marc 1]

Gross waste of well trained soldiers. If NZ is going to train the ANA, regular troops would be a much better option, particularly those with experience as instructors in training establishments.

Leave the SAS to do what they do best.

[recce.k1]

Gross waste of well trained soldiers. If NZ is going to train the ANA, regular troops would be a much better option, particularly those with experience as instructors in training establishments.

Leave the SAS to do what they do best.
I'd agree with that sentiment (mind you, I'm speaking from an uninformed non-military background). From Rayna's second link in her first post, some selected quotes:

American vice admiral William Sullivan has told the Herald New Zealand's Special Air Service troops are ideally suited to a "mentoring" role. This would involve the SAS training Afghan army units and fighting the Taleban.

Operational Mentor and Liaison Teams, dubbed "omelettes", play an important role in the war because they are training the Afghan Army and police so international forces can eventually leave.

The danger arises from the mentor troops being paired with their less-able Afghan counterparts on missions rather than relying on their own loyal and highly trained colleagues.

"It is more than just training and pushing them out the door. It is going with them when they go out the door.

"They go with them on operations and they live with them. They help them plan missions. It is an ideal role for your SAS."

In March, Australian mentor Mathew Hopkins was shot dead by the Taleban, and a just-released report has revealed serious failings by the Afghans the corporal was mentoring.

It says the locals played only a limited role when the joint patrol came under heavy fire and the Australians had to take control even though there were far fewer of them and they were only there in support.

I'm not sure I agree with the Admiral saying "It is an ideal role for your SAS". Perhaps maybe for other elements of NZ's Regular Forces (but these guys are already stretched, being a small Army and all that) so probably have little capacity to assist. Granted though, the training of the ANA is important.

When the NZSAS last deplyed to Afghanistan in 2005 their mission was to "specialise in long-range reconnaissance and "direct action missions (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10328524)". "
Surely the NZSAS would be wanting to do more of that?

[StevoJH]

As Marc said, probably a better use of resources to look for former instructors that are still in the non spec-ops portion of the army, whether they are reservists or regulars, and send them over as mentors. I'm guessing the older the soldier the better even (don't they respect their elders over there?).

[Rayna]

Marc 1, recce.k1 - Good to see others are thinking around the same lines.
And I am sure the SAS would be wanting to be doing more of that. Although have never met one to asked what they would want to be doing.

StevoJH - Former Instructors? This might be an idea but how ready would they be to go into Afghanistan?

[recce.k1]

What's the current situation regarding private contractors becoming/being available in significant numbers (if not already?) for ANA training in Afghanistan?

After all, like most Armies, there apparently is or was a very far share of former NZ Army senior & experienced ranks (including those vital NCO's) working for them (hundreds?) in Iraq! :D

And can we contract them back to the NZ Army for training even? Thus freeing up experienced RF training staff for deployments (or ANA training)? I'm sure NZDF personnel would welcome the experience (both ways).

Anyway back to the discussion, if NZSAS not likely to train ANA (unless it was a SF arm perhaps? However I simply suspect PM Key's reasoning not to may possibly be from the Aussie SAS mentoring experience eg NZDF & ADF assess these things, right, and it's not the kiwi's cup of tea?) and would rather operate alongside with other SF's then surely the NZSAS would be better placed there, after all they are quite at ease operating in the extreme and varying conditions there etc.

[Kip]

I'd rather our SAS do the jobs they are trained for and know they can do well, rather than expect them to do jobs they aren't trained to do. Send them over for those tasks alone. I'm sure they are needed.

[OPSSG]

StevoJH - Former Instructors? This might be an idea but how ready would they be to go into Afghanistan?

All armies have instructional positions and 'schools', so what he is saying is send some infantry trained instructors who are currently in 'schools'. :)

[steve33]

I believe it would be a bad idea to put our SAS with poorly trained Afgan troops and put the SAS at huge risk.

They are trained to be stealthy and would lose that having lower quality troops around them.

One thing that springs to mind was a doco about the Green Berets that i watched on sky and they were on a mission with some afgans,they were listening to the Taliban on the radio and the Taliban knew they were somewhere in the area but didn,t know where it was dark when the Afgans in the convoy turned on there headlights and lit up the convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED that they had close by killing two green Berets.

[StevoJH]

I believe it would be a bad idea to put our SAS with poorly trained Afgan troops and put the SAS at huge risk.

They are trained to be stealthy and would lose that having lower quality troops around them.

One thing that springs to mind was a doco about the Green Berets that i watched on sky and they were on a mission with some afgans,they were listening to the Taliban on the radio and the Taliban knew they were somewhere in the area but didn,t know where it was dark when the Afgans in the convoy turned on there headlights and lit up the convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED that they had close by killing two green Berets.

That is the job of the US Army Special Forces though (Green Berets). Their reason for existing, the job they were created to do, is going into another country and training local troops. The SAS, whether British, Australian or New Zealander have a primary role of Recon, Counter-Terrorism and insertion behind enemy lines etc. Training local troops is not one of their main specialities.

And if it is, then the SASR can come back to Australia and work on forming up the second training battalion that the Army needs to keep up with the current recruits.

[p.l.rue]

That is the job of the US Army Special Forces though (Green Berets). Their reason for existing, the job they were created to do, is going into another country and training local troops. The SAS, whether British, Australian or New Zealander have a primary role of Recon, Counter-Terrorism and insertion behind enemy lines etc. Training local troops is not one of their main specialities.

And if it is, then the SASR can come back to Australia and work on forming up the second training battalion that the Army needs to keep up with the current recruits.
I keep banging on about the Afgans can teach us a thing or two. Essentially the issues are intelligence driven,unfortunately theres not a lot of it about in theatre. They could be taught barrack room soldierin but this would not help with the tactical requirements on the ground. ANZAC SAS has always operated to fill the needs of its own national security, would it be willing to train a defence force a percentage who will definately be Taliban infiltrators
who will pass back info if they are deeply buried or rejoin forces to inform of training intelligence. Not a good idea.
There are in excess of thirty clans/tribes (Karzai heads but one by agreement) Language (Baloch and Pashtoon) with other tongues and dialects. Arabic with a heavy palastinian patoise is treated with suspision. Farsie in the border ares with Iran is also spoken. Divisions can also be religious. South of Afganistan is Baluchistan which eats into Iran and pakistan its not on the map, but they just treat every body with suspicion. Their claim to fame is probably like the Irish in the UK and the USofA they built the UAE. They are of extra ordinary physic being over 6ft tall hazel/grey eyes and tough as nails they always smell as though they ve been in a forest fire. There is no easy solution to the issues brought up, except in the tradition of the gulf to do a deal and make an offer the Taliban can't refuse and deal them in, battling these guys is not the way to solve the issues. Rayna hit the nail on the head unwittingly if u can solve the issues of the women folk u will have a nation state this might happen in the next thousand years. The US green beanies solved local issues in Vietnam with their A and B teams but an innoculation program with the infants stopped them dead when the VC chopped off the infants arms this has also happened in Afganistan. The whole location from Israel to India is one Armagedon waiting to happen to have had an insane Tex red neck like Bush as president beggars belief. Roll on death demobs to far away.

[dave_kiwi]

Every one relax - SAS off to the 'Ghan to do what they do, oh so well

From NZ Herald:

SAS heading back to Afghanistan

Special Air Service troops will again be sent to Afghanistan, Prime Minister John Key announced today.

SAS heading back to Afghanistan - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10589859).

Not unexpected - but at least Key showed some backbone :-)

[KiwiRob]

In the NZ Herald today it said the SAS would go in 3 rotations over 18 months, 70 troops per rotation, how many troopers are in the NZ SAS?

[Rayna]

New Today from the New Zealand Herald - SAS will face stronger Taleban - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10589940)

Cabinet's plans for Afghanistan

Three rotations of 70 Special Air Services troops over 18 months.

Withdraw soldiers in the Provincial Reconstruction Team over the next three to five years.

Send more aid and civilian experts to work in policing, agriculture, health and education.

Appoint a "development adviser" to the Provincial Reconstruction Team to oversee change.

Name a senior diplomat as ambassador to Afghanistan and base him or her there rather than in Tehran as at present.



Much better idea than the idea of the SAS training up the Afghan army and everyone is correct when they say it will be counter productive and put them in danger. It isn't what they are trained to do but so far this looks good.

[Rayna]

Sorry guys, i didn't see that those guys posted similar links as well....
I never got any notification of any replies.... Strange.

[p.l.rue]

Sorry guys, i didn't see that guy guys posted the links as well....
I never got any notification of any replies.... Strange.
For all purposes prejudicial to safety and interests of the state. You will never know, even the government will never certain of disposition for security reasons. Other less friendlies will be reading this lot.

[Rayna]

For all purposes prejudicial to safety and interests of the state. You will never know, even the government will never certain of disposition for security reasons. Other less friendlies will be reading this lot.

Was that a reply to my comment about the article?

[p.l.rue]

Was that a reply to my comment about the article?
Nah kiwi rob PLR

[Rayna]

I have never been that fond of the journalism on our "60 Minutes" programme but tonight they have an piece on the SAS in Afghanistan. Might be worth recording/watching.

[anan]

Just saw this forum and thread. Any thoughts here on the ANAAC?:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/afghan-national-army-air-corps-8808-2/
The ANAAC needs foreign trainers aside from the US, Brits, Indians and Czechs that are helping right now. China, South Korea, Singapore, and Japan are possible candidates. India could also boost its existing advising presence.

Broader question of Afghanistan:
The international community has three missions:
-help the ANSF improve security in the short run
-increase Afghan capacity (ANSF, civilian GIRoA institutions, other Afghan institutions) over the medium term
-facilitate economic development over the long run so that the Afghans can afford to pay for their increased capacity (current GIRoA revenues of $600 million are one tenth of GIRoA steady state expenditure of $6,000 million.)

It is far cheaper in international blood and treasure to increase ANSF capacity than to fight for them. This, therefore is the primary medium term mission of ISAF. This is why SAS and other special forces need to assigned the mission of training ANSF special force commandos.

My view is that the most of ISAF needs to convert to an SFA (Special Force Augmentation) type (with some variations) model. Currently 4th Bde, 82nd Airborne is deploying in Afghanistan as an SFA.

I would super embed one ISAF advisory brigade HQs in every ANA Corps and Division HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory battalions in each ANA bde HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory companies in every ANA battalion. Similarly super emded with the ANP. Transition all battlespace in Afghanistan to the ANSF. Transition all reconstruction and PRTs to the ANA. Fight the war through them.

[steve33]

Just saw this forum and thread. Any thoughts here on the ANAAC?:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/afghan-national-army-air-corps-8808-2/
The ANAAC needs foreign trainers aside from the US, Brits, Indians and Czechs that are helping right now. China, South Korea, Singapore, and Japan are possible candidates. India could also boost its existing advising presence.

Broader question of Afghanistan:
The international community has three missions:
-help the ANSF improve security in the short run
-increase Afghan capacity (ANSF, civilian GIRoA institutions, other Afghan institutions) over the medium term
-facilitate economic development over the long run so that the Afghans can afford to pay for their increased capacity (current GIRoA revenues of $600 million are one tenth of GIRoA steady state expenditure of $6,000 million.)

It is far cheaper in international blood and treasure to increase ANSF capacity than to fight for them. This, therefore is the primary medium term mission of ISAF. This is why SAS and other special forces need to assigned the mission of training ANSF special force commandos.

My view is that the most of ISAF needs to convert to an SFA (Special Force Augmentation) type (with some variations) model. Currently 4th Bde, 82nd Airborne is deploying in Afghanistan as an SFA.

I would super embed one ISAF advisory brigade HQs in every ANA Corps and Division HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory battalions in each ANA bde HQs. Super embed ISAF advisory companies in every ANA battalion. Similarly super emded with the ANP. Transition all battlespace in Afghanistan to the ANSF. Transition all reconstruction and PRTs to the ANA. Fight the war through them.

Training Afgan commandos is one thing going on missions witht them is something else,i commented earlier in a post about the U.S Green Berets on a mission with Afgans and they were out at night and these afgan morons turned the lights on in there Hilux and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED killing two Green Beret.

There is no way our SAS should be put in that position.

[Rayna]

Training Afgan commandos is one thing going on missions witht them is something else,i commented earlier in a post about the U.S Green Berets on a mission with Afgans and they were out at night and these afgan morons turned the lights on in there Hilux and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban saw it and detonated an IED killing two Green Beret.

There is no way our SAS should be put in that position.

Agreed, they aren't the most organized and skilled. I do agree that they need to be trained. But the SAS is not trained to train foreign military's I mentioned before that it would be counter productive from what they are supposed to do. This is why trainers should be sent there, people who do train the military. Wither is a few from NZ, Australasia or the United States. Keep the SAS doing what they are doing and what they were trained to do. Not train the troops or go out on missions with them, that would just get them killed.

[anan]

Rayna, I disagree. SAS shouldn't mentor traditional ANA, but they should mentor ANA special force commandos. Look at what an amazing success US SOCOM had in training and mentoring the Iraqi Special Operations Forces. The same can be achieved with Afghans.

[Rayna]

Rayna, I disagree. SAS shouldn't mentor traditional ANA, but they should mentor ANA special force commandos. Look at what an amazing success US SOCOM had in training and mentoring the Iraqi Special Operations Forces. The same can be achieved with Afghans.

Perhaps your right, perhaps it would help but here we go "70 of the elite troops would be deployed for up to 18 months, in three rotations." That's how many are going back that's how many we can supply. We are a small country although we have is of good quality its still very small. We don't have much to offer in the way of quantity.

Would we be able to spare them for mentoring roles? Perhaps that is why we should send up instructors/tutors/trainers to do what they do best?

This goes back to the question though which didn't really clearly state in my first post. Who are we really training? I understand that training them is essential, I mean we cannot do it ourselves but What happens if we put in all this effort for training their troops only for someone with who would undo all that's done and worse? Nothing has been set in stone now but still its something to consider.

[p.l.rue]

[QUOTE=Rayna;180029]Perhaps your right, perhaps it would help but here we go "70 of the elite troops would be deployed for up to 18 months, in three rotations." That's how many are going back that's how many we can supply. We are a small country although we have is of good quality its still very small. We don't have much to offer in the way of quantity.

Would we be able to spare them for mentoring roles? Perhaps that is why we should send up instructors/tutors/trainers to do what they do best?

This goes back to the question though which didn't really clearly state in my first post. Who are we really training? I understand that training them is essential, I mean we cannot do it ourselves but What happens if we put in all this effort for training their troops only for someone with who would undo all that's done and worse? Nothing has been set in stone now but still its something to consider
Firstly there is no comparison between Arabic speaking Iraq and Afganistan.Iraq has its own problems with the divisions created by the British mandate that drew borders without consideration of its inhabitants. Three cultural areas are involved and each would n't take a leak on the other if they were on fire. Saddam did his best to exterminate the northern and southern inhabitants. Once the cultural devide iwas bridged Iraq was in terms relatively easy to rebuild its army. The mistake there was to disolve the army in the first place, but having learned the hard way our American brothers have re-installed the old hands. There are other issues as dollars do strange things to people.
Afganistan is another ball game and they dont want to play ball. For NATO troops altitude is a real problem the other is language how do you instruct? The best idea is we all go home the Soviets gave it their best shot the UK lost an army out there a couple of hundred years ago and we are about to go to the wall with NATO. All the effort and loss of life allowed a miniscule part of the population to vote. What are we trying to do and whats the end game, another stack of dead bodies.
Pierre La Rue.

[riksavage]

Less of an issue for NZ, but if NATO fails in A-Stan due to a lack of resolve by selected members the organisation is dead in the water, it will lose all credibility. There is so much more at stake than dealing with a localised insurgency at the micro level. It's also far to simplistic an argument to compare Britain and Russia's experience to that of NATO's, all three had very different strategic objectives.

[p.l.rue]

[QUOTE=riksavage;180092]Less of an issue for NZ, but if NATO fails in A-Stan due to a lack of resolve by selected members the organisation is dead in the water, it will lose all credibility. There is so much more at stake than dealing with a localised insurgency at the micro level. It's also far to simplistic an argument to compare Britain and Russia's experience to that of NATO's, all three had very different strategic objectives Please inform me so I can pass on the message to co sphere NATO. At a personal level only Xe has a clue. Pierre.

[Rayna]

Pierre - be careful with your quoting, you seem to chop half it off and its hard to determine where the quoted post ends and where your one starts..
Its asy if you want to only quote a select amount. Highlight and select that text but dont remove the [/quote] stuff unless you are removing everything...

And on an off topic question, is it me or has this forum lost its Skin?

[Gremlin29]

Rayna, I disagree. SAS shouldn't mentor traditional ANA, but they should mentor ANA special force commandos. Look at what an amazing success US SOCOM had in training and mentoring the Iraqi Special Operations Forces. The same can be achieved with Afghans.

I don't know enough about NZ SAS to comment intelligently about whether they should or should not be mentoring however it is worth pointing out that training foreign military/fighters is US Army SF meat and potatoes, that is their primary mission. NZ SAS (as with any other SF types) should stick to their mission/tasking. If they don't have a training mission, they shouldn't be misused that way, it would be a waste of a highly valuable resource.

[p.l.rue]

Pierre - be careful with your quoting, you seem to chop half it off and its hard to determine where the quoted post ends and where your one starts..
Its asy if you want to only quote a select amount. Highlight and select that text but dont remove the stuff unless you are removing everything...

And on an off topic question, is it me or has this forum lost its Skin?[/QUOTE]

Could be, I dont know? what I do know is the only guys who are on message in Afganistan are the civilian ops. The millitary jazzed it for medicines sans frontiers big time with hearts and mind program 4 got slotted, now no medics in the field. The locals know there is a limited military application so they are keeping right away from NATO field service medics. U must understand these people just want to be left alone. They dont want to pay taxes into a carrupt regime, they dont have anything anyway. NATO steamed in approx 35 square miles of dope being grown when the talliban had the patch and reducing. Now dope is up to 350/380 square miles (CIA figures). The government passes laws which even the talliban would not take on conjugal rights etc. Im back out in the UAE in a few days then over into N Afganistan for 10 days will pass on if anything interesting occures. They are going to have to do a deal with these guys (Taliban) sorry my English can be rocky. Do U speak French. P.