80 Al-Zarrar tanks given to Pakistan Army

[saraab]

Yesterday's Daily Jang Karachi reported that the first Al- Zarar batch will be commisioned on the 19th this month.

But what i have been hearing and reading is that there are approx 20 already in service.

source :
[admin edit: Post news from credible sources - not from website which copies from other websites and does not list the actual source of the information!]

Maybe, the ones shown there are the proto types.

Anyone ???

[Bilal_Khan]

Likely, anyways the Al Zarrar is on par with the T-72 right ??

[WebMaster]

I believe I read in an article that Al Zarrar is T-59 upgraded!

[Bilal_Khan]

I believe I read in an article that Al Zarrar is T-59 upgraded!

Yeah, but it has a 120mm Smooth Bore Gun, better engine, and a lot of other stuff.

[WebMaster]

I don't think it has night vision/combat capabilities, does it?

[Red aRRow]

Yes it has WEBS. :D

[Roger Smith]

What is the difference in combat capability and better in quality between
Al-Zarar and Al-Khalid? :?

[general]

The AK is much better

[big_evil]

yeah man! I wana know this too...All I've been reading up and finding info about is Al-Khalid. Then some time back I read abt Al-Zarar tank... when did this come in? n watz the difference between Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar??? anyone to help?

[Red aRRow]

Al-Zarrar is a Pakistani upgrade to the T-59 tank. So it is just an improvement over the tank which is quite old and thus comes with added drawbacks. The upgrades add nightvision and new cannons (I think.)
The Al-Khalid on the other hand is a brand new tank which was constructed in accordance with the needs of the army. This tank has auto tracking, night vision, auto loaders, bi-axis stabilized sights, AA maching gun which can be remote operated from inside, the works.

So obviously!!! the Al Khalid is better than the T-59 upgrade.

[fieldmarshal]

al- zarrar has been around for a lot longer than they say.......by a year or so....it has been in service with some armoured corps regements........i had the pleasure of sitin in 1 at kharia belongin to 24 cavalery.......in this was more than a year back.......... :)

[suleman]

Al Zarrar tank given to Army

(Updated at 1245 PST)
ISLAMABAD: Al Zarrar tank constructed with the collaboration of Heavy Industries Texila, Pakistan and China is handed over to Pakistan Army on Thursday, Geo news channel reported.

On the hand-over ceremony, President General Pervez Musharraf said that Defence of Pakistan is inevitable.

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2004-daily/26-02-2004/main/update.shtml#19

This will certainly a boost for Pakistan army espacially for offencive units.Pakistan soon will have a strong armour and will be in a position of giving a solid punch to enemy in case of agression.

[The Watcher]

Whats this topic doing in flash points? :lol

[saraab]

80 Al-Zarrar tanks handed over to army
ISLAMABAD, Feb 26: President Pervez Musharraf handed over on Thursday 80 indigenously modernized and upgraded Al-Zarrar tanks to the Pakistan Army and 25 armoured personnel carriers (APC) to the police.

A high mobility all-weather tank with an "image stabilized fire control system" and capable of day and night operations, Al-Zarrar is an upgraded version of the T-59 tanks of Chinese origin.

Speaking at the handing over ceremony at the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT), President Musharraf said Pakistan did not want to embroil itself in an arms race but would maintain a minimum level of deterrence for the country's security.

The tanks' indigenous adaptation was a cost-effective solution in the country's military development, he said. The HIT plans to manufacture hundreds of Al-Zarrar tanks for armoured formations of the army in next few years.

The president said security, integrity and solidarity of the country would never be compromised. "Pakistan is conscious of its priorities towards economic development and poverty alleviation, but within these limitations the security of nation and the integrity and solidarity of Pakistan will never be compromised," said the president.

He said today's event demonstrated maturity of our indigenized defence production capabilities and self-reliance. Pakistan remained aware of the debilitating effects of the sanctions in the past, he added. "We follow a very cost-effective and affordable solution which forms the hallmark of all our military development," he added.

Gen Musharraf said Pakistan's strategy of minimum deterrence in conventional and un-conventional fields was a very cost-effective concept. He said in conventional deterrence and also to realize the offensive nature of our defence strategy, armour plays an effective role.

"It gives an offensive punch to the army." The president said: "It is this offensive punch which will end any war on a positive note." The armour corps, he said, ought to be very proud of itself for getting the very latest tanks in the world.

In the coming years, they would be getting Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar and T-80 UD tanks, putting them along with the best armoured forces in the world, he added. The new tanks were released only days after the army also received the indigenously developed solid fuel short range Hatf-3 missile which has a range of 290 kilometres.

President Musharraf had earlier this month announced that an intermediate range ballistic (IRBM) solid fuel missile Shaheen-2 would also be ready for testing soon. -DPA/ APP
:mrgreen
[sources]
http://www.jang.com.pk/jang/index.html
http://www.dawn.com/2004/02/27/top2.htm

there was also a suplement released by jang karachi yesterday about the event describing Al-Zarrar's and the security vehicle "Muhaffiz"

[saraab]

i posted the same news in another thread after not seeing it there

:smokingc: :smokingc:

[Red aRRow]

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/userpics/normal_Al-Zarrar-DefenceTalk.com088.jpg

Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf, standing in a vehicle, reviews a parade of Pakistan-made Al-Zarar tanks in Taxila, 40 kilometers (25 miles) northwest of Islamabad, Pakistan, Thursday, Feb. 26, 2004, in this photo released by Pakistan's Press Information Department.

************************

The upgrade has breathed new life into the old T-59s. The cannon has been changed to a 125mm chrome plated smooth bore, new armour has been added, a new computerized fire control system has been installed, extra grenade launchers on both sides of the turret, bi-axis stablized night vision sites for the gunner etc. etc. etc.
All in all 54 major upgrades have been done.

[Roger Smith]

Pakistan is now an expert in making MBT. The first to roll out was Al-Khalid second is Al-Zarrar and when would the third MBT to be roll out and what would be the name? :?

[mysterious]

I think for now; Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar should be more than enough for the requirements of the Pakistani Army. They should now constiture their resources towards improving the PAF with advanced jet and providing PN with more vessels! :cop

[Roger Smith]

I think for now; Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar should be more than enough for the requirements of the Pakistani Army. They should now constiture their resources towards improving the PAF with advanced jet and providing PN with more vessels! :cop

Well, you have a good point.

Now Pakistan should concentrate on getting new hardware for PAF & PN. :smokingc:

[SABRE]

i agree. PAK armed forces must invest more on PAF & PN(S). After all PAF is the one which has kept te enemy on back fut during all the battles is fought. The new JF-17 were tested successfuly last yr. & would join ove PAF in 2006 so there is an investment in PAF but still the PN(S) needs more although France has shifted its Sub-Marine tech tp Pakistan PN(S) must demand for atleast one Career & Fleet.

[Red aRRow]

Here is an older picture of the Al-Zarrar. This one is an earlier prototype.

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/userpics/Alzarrar-DefenceTalk.com099.jpg

[Roger Smith]

Here is an older picture of the Al-Zarrar. This one is an earlier prototype.

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/userpics/normal_Alzarrar-DefenceTalk.com099.jpg


Nice picture and very impressive! :smokingc:

Al-Zarrar is basically a Chinese T-59 with certain modifications.

[mysterious]

Well they aren't just "certain" modifications but 54 MAJOR Up-grades/Modifications to it!

[zali]

Doesn't anyone think we have already spent enough on tanks that will never be used, fighter jets that are only likey to be used for aerobatics? Lets set military spending aside and start spending more on education and healthcare. Instead of developing a new plane, why not shut down all the mad madrassas and set up new schools? Would be a much better use of money. And at the end of the day, the most potent weapon you can have is an educated, healthy and motivated population. :)

[corsair7772]

Doesn't anyone think we have already spent enough on tanks that will never be used, fighter jets that are only likey to be used for aerobatics? Lets set military spending aside and start spending more on education and healthcare. Instead of developing a new plane, why not shut down all the mad madrassas and set up new schools? Would be a much better use of money. And at the end of the day, the most potent weapon you can have is an educated, healthy and motivated population. :)

I woudve agreed with u if it hadnt been for 1 teeny weeny lil fact. An educated, healthy and motivated population gets slaughtered the same way an underfed, impoverished and uneducated does. While i maintain tht im not a hyper extremist and war mongerer the fact remains tht the economy takes some time to get started and time is simply wat we dont have. Indian extremists are pushing for an attack on pakistan somewhere around 2010 by which time most of Indias military hardware would be functional. Therefore we must spend more on defence at a time like this while still keeping our economy within acceptable limits without cutting down on defence. Once we get the deterrent hardware we need we can concentrate more on our educational and economical field as no military can function without a strong economical backing.

[Red aRRow]

There should always be a balance in a country's spending. Defence is of paramount concern to any country.

Anyways the picture I posted above is an old one.
Here is the latest with Gen. Mushy posing at front. :smokingc: :smokingc:

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/albums/userpics/Mushy.jpg

[Roger Smith]

Doesn't anyone think we have already spent enough on tanks that will never be used, fighter jets that are only likey to be used for aerobatics? Lets set military spending aside and start spending more on education and healthcare. Instead of developing a new plane, why not shut down all the mad madrassas and set up new schools? Would be a much better use of money. And at the end of the day, the most potent weapon you can have is an educated, healthy and motivated population. :)


Zali........I salute you for the aforementioned statement. :idea:

You are one of the decent, mature and intelligent guy on this forum. :smokingc:

[mysterious]

Doesn't anyone think we have already spent enough on tanks that will never be used, fighter jets that are only likey to be used for aerobatics? Lets set military spending aside and start spending more on education and healthcare. Instead of developing a new plane, why not shut down all the mad madrassas and set up new schools? Would be a much better use of money. And at the end of the day, the most potent weapon you can have is an educated, healthy and motivated population. :)

I dont think at this stage, a country like Pakistan can stop spending on military and equipment while increasing amounts to be spent on education and healthcare. ONLY Pakistan ARMY is able enough to face the Indian ARMY at this point in time! PAF and PN are pretty much in chaos because of non-acquisition of advanced arms and equipment. Look at India, day by day you keep hearing news of it buying this and it buying that; stock piling and enhancing equipment and military hardware inventories! What are you going to do with better education and healthcare when in the near future India decides to attack you? It goes hand in hand; you have to balance the act of spending on social services as well as the military! Pakistan right now, desparately needs advanced figher jets and more naval vessels!! :cop

[Winter]

I dont think at this stage, a country like Pakistan can stop spending on military and equipment while increasing amounts to be spent on education and healthcare. ONLY Pakistan ARMY is able enough to face the Indian ARMY at this point in time! PAF and PN are pretty much in chaos because of non-acquisition of advanced arms and equipment. Look at India, day by day you keep hearing news of it buying this and it buying that; stock piling and enhancing equipment and military hardware inventories! What are you going to do with better education and healthcare when in the near future India decides to attack you? It goes hand in hand; you have to balance the act of spending on social services as well as the military! Pakistan right now, desparately needs advanced figher jets and more naval vessels!! :cop

More?...Hmm...

I would curious to hear your definition of 'enough.'

:frosty

[mysterious]

I dont think at this stage, a country like Pakistan can stop spending on military and equipment while increasing amounts to be spent on education and healthcare. ONLY Pakistan ARMY is able enough to face the Indian ARMY at this point in time! PAF and PN are pretty much in chaos because of non-acquisition of advanced arms and equipment. Look at India, day by day you keep hearing news of it buying this and it buying that; stock piling and enhancing equipment and military hardware inventories! What are you going to do with better education and healthcare when in the near future India decides to attack you? It goes hand in hand; you have to balance the act of spending on social services as well as the military! Pakistan right now, desparately needs advanced figher jets and more naval vessels!! :cop

More?...Hmm...

I would curious to hear your definition of 'enough.'

:frosty

Yeah I meant it when I said "more". I think it has enough to do pretty serious damage to Indian Navy and its harbours but yeah we need more to be at exactly half of Indian Navy's power or a little more than that to put up a MORE solid defence! :cop

[Winter]

Yeah I meant it when I said "more". I think it has enough to do pretty serious damage to Indian Navy and its harbours but yeah we need more to be at exactly half of Indian Navy's power or a little more than that to put up a MORE solid defence! :cop

Half of the Indian Navy's power?...But what if that requires thirty new warships? Or an aircraft carrier? And to get there means spending, say, 10% of the GDP for instance?

[mysterious]

Yeah I meant it when I said "more". I think it has enough to do pretty serious damage to Indian Navy and its harbours but yeah we need more to be at exactly half of Indian Navy's power or a little more than that to put up a MORE solid defence! :cop

Half of the Indian Navy's power?...But what if that requires thirty new warships? Or an aircraft carrier? And to get there means spending, say, 10% of the GDP for instance?

LOL PN doesnt need an aircraft carrier as it doesnt have any blue water navy ambitions unlike the Indians. And getting half their number doesn't mean getting 30 new ships! I can imagine how much u're dreaming. Buying just 10 would do perfect if you have read the latest inventories of the two navies as of late 2003!!! PN just needs a defensive force not an offensive one!

[Winter]

LOL PN doesnt need an aircraft carrier as it doesnt have any blue water navy ambitions unlike the Indians. And getting half their number doesn't mean getting 30 new ships! I can imagine how much u're dreaming. Buying just 10 would do perfect if you have read the latest inventories of the two navies as of late 2003!!! PN just needs a defensive force not an offensive one!

I used it as an example.

[mysterious]

Yeah I know. Thats why you need to pay more attention to the rest of my post.

[Frozen Hell]

So they made some 54+ changes/upgrades to it. Does anyone know what are they? :?

[mysterious]

So they made some 54+ changes/upgrades to it. Does anyone know what are they? :?

If you search through related posts you will find the info there. I think there's a thread or post from someone that clearly mentions it all. But yeah; one thing's for sure! There are 54 major upgrades done to it!

[Winter]

Yeah I know. Thats why you need to pay more attention to the rest of my post.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me: I didn't say Pakistan needed an aircraft carrier, I was emphasising my question on the matter of more, or what is needed, whether it be an aircraft carrier or not, a fleet of ten new SSKs, acquirement of Type-x MANPAD, etc.

:frosty

[mysterious]

Yeah I know. Thats why you need to pay more attention to the rest of my post.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me: I didn't say Pakistan needed an aircraft carrier, I was emphasising my question on the matter of more, or what is needed, whether it be an aircraft carrier or not, a fleet of ten new SSKs, acquirement of Type-x MANPAD, etc.

:frosty

I understood you very well. Get over the aircraft carrier. I just said PN didnt need that cuz u used it as an example and I just said even 10 more vessels would be enough for PN. Thats abt it. :smokingc: MORE and ENOUGH go together.

[Winter]

I understood you very well. Get over the aircraft carrier. I just said PN didnt need that cuz u used it as an example and I just said even 10 more vessels would be enough for PN. Thats abt it. :smokingc: MORE and ENOUGH go together.

I'm afraid you've lost me. :?

------------

A country must judge for itself what to budget and where to spend it, based around several factors, including it's assessment of it's strategic situation. Like shamayel said, it's a matter of balance. Sacrificing the economy for defence will backfire and vice versa, in some cases...Case in point: North Korea and the Soviet Union.

[mysterious]

I KNOW that!!! I was talking abt something else that u've lost me on I suppose! chill :smokingc:

[Revival_786]

Pakistan's economy is going strong, and Pakistan needs the mininum deterance. What Pakistan is doing is justified.

[mysterious]

Pakistan's economy is going strong, and Pakistan needs the mininum deterance. What Pakistan is doing is justified.

Thats exactly what I said in my earlier posts but yeah, the balancing act is also very necessary between military spending and economic spending otherwise things can become pretty ugly! :smokingc:

[Red aRRow]

:cop :cop Discussion is about Al-Zarrar tanks, NOT about military spending. There is a separate thread for that. :cop :cop

[mysterious]

LOL. I was just wondering when some Mod would say that. Thnx Shamayel :smokingc:

[darklegent]

Can anyone come up with the actual number of upgraded Al-Zarrar that will be produced from the original 1200+ T-59 that are in the inventary.

[lamdacore]

Aren't al-zarrar and al-khalid for desert combat only? I remember reading it in some newspaper. Can someone please explain on the terrain these tanks were designed for!

thnx!

[corsair7772]

Rough terrain to generalise the whole thing. But theres no reason to stop them from operating in the Sialkot, Punjab and any other region except perhaps to the extreme north.

[darklegent]

Chech out this link for the original T-59 when produced first by China in the 1960's.

http://www.mainbattletanks.czweb.org/Tanks/etype59.htm

This is a COOL site regarding what the upgrades to the T-59 were carried out and what it looks like now.
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/tanks/t59.html

*All these sites have a copyright so plz do not copy anything that will offend the original site provider.

[mysterious]

Pretty impressive I must say. Seems like the T-59s had a new life breathed in to them! :smokingc:

[tatra]

Aren't al-zarrar and al-khalid for desert combat only? I remember reading it in some newspaper. Can someone please explain on the terrain these tanks were designed for!

thnx!

Most tanks are not designed for a specific terrain but have to be able to deal with a variety of terrains. However, for desert warfare, you may want to add a few items like additional dust-filters, air-conditioning, bigger side-skirts to reduce the amount of dust being thrown up by tracks. If you were headed for snow, you might add a heater. If you were headed for marshly terrain, you might used a wider track (compare MT-LB and MT-LBv). I think marshly or very mountenous terrain are the only cases for which I know vehicles have been specially designed (generally resulting in a lighter vehicle)

[gf0012-aust]

Dust is the single biggest threat for a tank in a desert theatre. The US was going through dust filters every day on some tanks in Kuwait.

It plays havoc with aircraft/helicopter engines as well.

[adsH]

remmber thisgf the pakistanis did design there tanks for desert combat they have deserts too the baloch desert and the sind dert then so i would say if the basic plat form is a T8u improved upwards then it would certainly be a competiter for the russian t90 (which BTW can now shoot its tank rounds lol while its haveing trasiant over heating erorr (russian turbine engine aren't good in deserts)). the british tanks had the sand dust problem too we had a raow over here in the MOD which is responisble for R&D and new fixes they just didn't have the adjustment ready for the tanks when the MBT tanks left for iraq but theyr ok now.

[Roger Smith]

Pretty impressive I must say. Seems like the T-59s had a new life breathed in to them! :smokingc:


Mys.....Al-Zarrar MBT is basically the old T-59s with new paint and new cosmetic, that is end of story. I hope my comments is not offending any individual. :smokingc:

[The Watcher]

roger al-zarrar is t-59 with over 53 upgrades < thats does not qualify as "new paint and new cosmetic" another example of typical indian with typical comment on down grading anything and everything related to pak. pathetic souls! :roll

[tatra]

... including 125mm gun!

[Roger Smith]

roger al-zarrar is t-59 with over 53 upgrades < thats does not qualify as "new paint and new cosmetic" another example of typical indian with typical comment on down grading anything and everything related to pak. pathetic souls! :roll


Watcher..........You are too sensitive on any Pakistani issue.

Naturally, if T-59s are being upgraded to Al-Zarrar, obviously and understandably there would be some changes here and there with the instruments totalling 53 upgardes.

Read this article, POF (Pakistan Ordinace Factory) is making consumer goods and unable to make military hardware. POF to manufature consumer goods. this is from a Pakistani news media DAWN and not any Israeli or Indian propoganda.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/10/top6.htm

Please live in reality and stop picking on me at every first opportunity you have. :)

Thank you for your attention on the above aspect and take care. ;)

[The Watcher]

roger, read if you can:

ISLAMABAD, March 9: The Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) plans to manufacture items of commercial use to diversify its activities to achieve capacity utilization to offset budgetary constraints for defence requirement.

For any company to survive it must diversify. It must make products that consumers can use and make products only national military forces can use. It helps the company find a new market and new way to make extra capital while maintaining the same industry infrastructure. Its a smart move ahead and nothing wrong with it besides, we are not discussing investment plan of POF. I don't know why you keep introducing irrelevant crap in all most all of your replies when you feel you've lost one argument!

53+ MAJOR upgrades, one should not take that lightly as paintjob and some cosmetics... what would you know? Only think you would care about is how to degrade and demean pakistan and things related to it.

[adsH]

POF is not makeing consumer good because they can't make weapons its because the requirment of weapons is negative the demand is not there any more. the decision is based on the economic prinicpals where the actual potencial to manufacture and the actuall production is different. so if the actuall potencial is not used it is a waste of resource namely labour which is un economical as all the skilled labour are constant so if there is nothing to make at that point ie u have fished makeing the stuff u were spose to make it is a drain of your resource to not make any thing so thats the reson why they have started secondary production. not becuase they suck at makeing what they were orignally spose to make.

[adsH]

diversity is a good ideia so if u don't have a considrable demand u can switch to another product there fore u don't let ur product prices fall and the demand can be controlled this is what is wrong about other defence industries which are so specific that diversity is impossible.

[adsH]

POF dose not make tanks it makes samll combat arms HIT makes tanks which is not going through under utilization.