Spanish Navy is considering buying F-35B

[Alonso Quijano]

Lockheed Martin argues that the F-35 is the only possible replacement for the Harrier Spanish Armada


13/05/2009 (Infodefernsa.com) - The U.S. company Lockheed Martin exhibited for the first time before a group of journalists at its Spanish factory Forth Worth (Texas, USA) for the vertical takeoff fighter F-35B should be stated that the substitute natural Harrier aircraft currently in service with the Spanish Armada.

The new fifth-generation fighter, still under development, incorporates many cutting-edge technologies and its invisibility to radar and has a single jet engine, which in its naval version, operating in vertical takeoff and landing and has overcome with better evidence of the required vertical thrust.

The first test pilot and director of assessment F35B, Jon Beesley, assured reporters that the new naval fighter, the Navy hopes to recruit to provide the Strategic Projection Ship Juan Carlos I, will have a range of fighter approximately 600 miles and more stealthy, invisible to the radar-F22., Europa Press reported.

Officially, Spain is not a partner in the consortium of several industrial countries that finance the development of the airplane while the Spanish Armada has privately expressed his interest in the match F35B by Lockheed Martin that it would be one of the candidates to replace in a few years the Spanish Harrier.

According to the newspaper business, staff of the Spanish Armada is already in the facilities of Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, familiarizing themselves with the new aircraft, which demonstrated, he adds, that the stake of the U.S. multinational for making this new client Spain plane, has no reverse and has officially begun.

Single plane

The JSF program general manager, Tom Burbage, said that the new game out for its operational and meets "all" the qualities that characterize the four previous generations of fighter aircraft. He emphasized that his company hopes to get a game "killer" and while "affordable" compared to other combat aircraft in service. "It will be a single plane," he predicted.

Located at one of the naval fighters, who starred in the pilot's first flight with vertical takeoff F35 stressed that, when fully operational, the 'Lightning II' will be "ten times more effective in combat missions than any fighter that the preceded it in military aviation.

It also stressed its ability to survive and their interoperability, in addition to its ability to network with other weapon systems. Finally, the JSF over the previous game as combat aircraft to be multi-conceived from its development to complete any task operation.

Lockheed Martin also showed the Spanish press to the final assembly line of the three versions of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), the F35A, B and C (conventional take-off vertical and short take-off). The model of interest to Spain and has made fourteen test flights.

¿European Option?

The Business Daily says that the experts do not consider that there may be a viable option European F35B to medium term. However, since the division of EADS Military Air Systems in Spain is a different version for the successor to the Harrier. Unofficial sources from the company told the business daily that the naval version of the Eurofighter is no longer a mere project, and proceed to negotiations with the Spanish Armada.

Since EADS is believed that the game could be "navalizado" with little difficulty, thanks to its short take-off run of only 700 meters, and the availability of the vector nozzles designed by the Spanish company ITP, among other things.

[Alonso Quijano]

News link:

Lockheed Martin defiende que el F-35 es el único sustituto posible a los Harrier de la Armada española - infodefensa.com - Información Defensa y Seguridad (http://www.infodefensa.com/esp/noticias/noticias.asp?cod=1464&n=Lockheed%20Martin%20defiende%20que%20el%20F-35%20es%20el%20%FAnico%20sustituto%20posible%20a%2 0los%20Harrier%20de%20la%20Armada%20espa%F1ola)

[Grim901]

That comes as no surprise. Every nation that wants to replace the harrier has only the F35 to turn to, it's the only STOVL craft in development as far as i'm aware.

As for a navalized Eurofighter, I can't see how that would be an alternative for anyone except Britain with full sized carriers on the way. The only other who could use it (not that they'd need to) would be the US and France. unless Spain is planning some revolutionary alteration to the Eurofighter or a big new carrier I can't see that happening.

[Alonso Quijano]

something is said that the Spanish company ITP wants to restart the X-31 project, but with the engines of the Eurofighter jet and vector developed by ITP.

Spain Wants To Test X-31 With Eurofighter Engine, Thrust-Vectoring Nozzle | Defense Daily | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6712/is_2_210/ai_n28831364/)

[ASFC]

something is said that the Spanish company ITP wants to restart the X-31 project, but with the engines of the Eurofighter jet and vector developed by ITP.

Spain Wants To Test X-31 With Eurofighter Engine, Thrust-Vectoring Nozzle | Defense Daily | Find Articles at BNET (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6712/is_2_210/ai_n28831364/)

That article is 8 years old. If they where going to do it something would have happened. And depending on how many Spain would want could be expensive to develop, and as I understand Spains economy is not brilliant right now for such a project. At least with F-35 you could share the R&D costs with the other nations buying it.


Since EADS is believed that the game could be "navalizado" with little difficulty, thanks to its short take-off run of only 700 meters, and the availability of the vector nozzles designed by the Spanish company ITP, among other things.

:lol3 A Navalised Typhoon for STOBAR or CATOBAR operations would be expensive, therefore I think STOVL Typhoon would be more expensive, not including that the Spanish Navy would need a new Carrier to allow for the takeoff length!

[Alonso Quijano]

I said well maybe not, I just wanted to say that much commented eurofighter shipbuilding. :confused:

I know it would be a very expensive project.
anyway so if it is a reality that is creating some ITP jets to gain more maneuverability in the typhoon.

[Alonso Quijano]

A Navalised Typhoon for STOBAR or CATOBAR operations would be expensive, therefore I think STOVL Typhoon would be more expensive, not including that the Spanish Navy would need a new Carrier to allow for the takeoff length!

our carrier (PDA), is already near the end of its operational life and many people believe that the LHD (JCI) is not its substitute.
some believe that there will be a new aircraft carrier ...
but I imagine this would be a project to within about 10 years.

I do not think we have a new aircraft carrier, now we do not need and whether we need a wing engaged in a particular time may use the LHD.

[citizen578]

Aside from the fact that such a project is blatently beyond the capabilities of Spain (I don't mean that dorogatorially) and even the UK... what would be the point? Spain can achieve the objectives of it's defence agendas using the Juan Carlos + F35 (or even it's current Harriers). There seems little sense to expand into an unneccessary and totally draining capability.

Look at the RN for example, it is (despite our constant moaning) a very sizable military force, yet will struggle to provide escorts for it's two incoming carriers. The Spanish Navy does not stand a snowball's chance in hell of gaining this capability, without completely destroying it's ability to mount the kind of defence/warfare it actually needs.

I'd also draw your attention to this article:

El recorte de dinero en la Armada deja bajo mínimos las misiones de seguridad nacional - Nacional - Nacional - ABC.es (http://www.abc.es/20090518/nacional-nacional/recorte-dinero-armada-deja-20090518.html)

Rough translation:


Severe budget situation a threat to national security missions

Three of the four submarines are still not seaworthy, and the patrol boats to monitor the coasts are casualties of cuts

Budget cuts implemented for this exercise by the government of Rodriguez Zapatero to the armed forces have left the Navy at its lowest level for its internal security functions, such as monitoring costs, the high and increasing cost of foreign missions. Since March, three of the four submarines in the fleet are stopped, remain low for the old patrol in the Straits and start Cantabric although the first of their replacements will not be ready until late 2010.
The Navy applied the bulk of its budget on the maintenance of large frigates, which are vessels for foreign missions-now the "Numancia" and "Blas de Lezo" in Indian Ocean waters near Somalia in mission against piracy, but has to cut to maximize the deployment and monitoring in coastal mainland, the waters of the Straits and islands. Furthermore, it is bound to extra savings on courses, training and fuel.
The most dramatic advance has been the casualties of the patrol boats, starting with the oldest deployed for surveillance in the Strait. It started in January by the "Acebedo," which was in the recovery of Perejil and followed in April with "Candido Perez. By docking and subsequent scrapping of the advance patrol of the class' Barceló 'continue in the coming months of the classes' Anaga' and 'Dragonera "inside the austerity plan launched by the Navy and was revealed by ABC.
After tying patrol in the Strait this summer will begin the same process in the Cantabrian break the "Marola" which is based in Santander. Ships are coming to the end of its useful life, but with which the Spanish Armada had entered into service until its replacement, the new ships at sea action (BAM), much larger and better equipped, according Navantia, the public the building, inheriting Bazán not begin to be ready until late 2010.
In the shipyards of San Fernando (Cadiz), the company had planned to deliver to the Navy the first BAM in September next year and every six months until a more complete your order for four units at the end of 2011. Until then, monitoring missions and rescue costs, the core of the patrol, will be much reduced.

Navy sources admit that they are doomed to end the habit of always having a network at sea patrol ready to act to make the boat of the Guardia Civil or the customs service, "when you leave something" At the submarine fleet breakdowns are higher than the low which saves defense budget. Three, only one works. Defense saves fuel and allowances "sea days" of the crew.
The more modern, the "Tramontana" -25 years in service, suffered a breakdown last December to end a "great hull" (full review dismantling piece by piece) and has not been out to sea. Remains at the base of Cartagena and Navantia claim that they do not have news that will be delivered for review.
The oldest and the first submarine of the series' August ', the' Galerna ", delivered to the Navy in 1982, this year is" great hull. After the crash of the 'Tramontana', suffered a leak when he was 300 meters under water, the Navy also ordered to tie her sister the 'Mistral', which is only serving the 'Siroco' pending review and that by reason of acts of the Armed Forces Day will be the basis for issuing a special program on the FAS.
«Burla al Congreso» "Burla to Congress'
The Ministry of Defense, in parliamentary answers on the accident said the "Tramontana" was limited to informing the House, four months later, it has opened an investigation into what happened and that "value" decorate the crew that saved the life and the submarine in a show of skill and reflexes. The Member who asked the question, Arsenio Fernandez de Mesa, as a "mockery" to the Congress' alleged response "because it is a simple refusal to provide the required data.
Navantia also expects the Navy completes its investigation into the failure of the "Tramontana" to make your own opinion, reviewing the past and consider the amendments helmets for other submarines to prevent further accidents.
Los S-80, para 2013 The S-80, 2013
The replacement of the four submarines of the Navy is not expected until late 2013, when Navantia has to deliver the first of the modern S-80 ordered. In the following two years, the company must serve another three to complete the renewal of the series' August ', which will then more than thirty years of service.


If someone could verify/discredit that acticle I'd be very interested to hear, as I've no idea how accurate it is.

If the above sounds harsh, it was not my intention. It's simply a point about keeping realistic about future developments.

[Alonso Quijano]

explains, Spain is now at a sensitive time, as the world Spain is in crisis.
but you have to add it to our patrol and submarines are already old and we also have to comply with international missions.
Spain has boats in Somalia, we are in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Kosovo and I think somewhere else.
Now with the withdrawal from Kosovo are going to send more troops to Afghanistan.
all this coupled with a crisis and the government which in fact is to save money at the moment with things that do not need.
Spain is beginning to retire old coastal patrol vessels to be replaced in 2010 by the new patrolmen BAM, which will be bigger with more capacity.
also we are saving money, taking 3 of 4 submarines in dry dock, 2 of them work and the other 2 have to do a review because of an accident suffered by the "Tramontana" with a leak.
is not much enthusiasm in having a 100% ready in a few years we will begin to receive the new S-80 submarine-art capabilities and oceanic.
Spain is currently the only danger is that its costs are immigrants who come in boats and for that we have the Civil Guard.
Spain what it is doing now that crisis is to invest money in international missions and cut where you need it least, that there are no coastal patrol does not mean that we have no warships and frag prepared for any emergency.

not currently have an underwater menace that threatens our shipping in the Strait and in our islands, if the 4 submarines estubiesen well, almost 4 would be moored at the port, so Spain wants to save money by leaving a 3 timp submarines in dry dock and make a review.

This is wrong?, "we are in crisis ...

a link to see the new patrolmen (BAM):

Resultados de la Búsqueda de imágenes de Google de http://www.infodefensa.com/noticias/imgs/BAM1dentro.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.infodefensa.com/noticias/imgs/BAM1dentro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.infodefensa.com/esp/noticias/noticias.asp%3Fcod%3D1234&usg=__7XDMzQOS7GoVZcWcxyvISth4Myw=&h=274&w=300&sz=93&hl=es&start=3&sig2=KGdV_6sivMbWgLpH8zlYzw&um=1&tbnid=NUausk5ZCyDfjM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpatrulleros%2BBAM%26hl%3Des%26rls%3Dc om.microsoft:es:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GTKR_es%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=etYZSvbEFoPSjAeGm-T1DA)

With a maximum displacement of 2490 tons and 93.9 meters in length, this new multipurpose patrol has the ability to navigate to 20.5 knots with a range of between 3,500 and 8700 miles.

Equipped with four engines and a crew of 35 sailors and the other 80 people on board this vessel has means of active defense and passive management platform and integrates the combat system 'Scomber.

With an estimated cost of 340 million euros per unit, each BAM may board a helicopter and is able to ocean surveillance missions, combating terrorism, pollution and drug trafficking.

and a link to see a video of the new submarine S-80:

Innova: Submarino S-80 (Fábrica de Ideas) - RTVE.es (http://www.rtve.es/mediateca/videos/20081030/innova-submarino-s-80-fabrica-ideas/326709.shtml)

[zeven]

That comes as no surprise. Every nation that wants to replace the harrier has only the F35 to turn to, it's the only STOVL craft in development as far as i'm aware.

As for a navalized Eurofighter, I can't see how that would be an alternative for anyone except Britain with full sized carriers on the way. The only other who could use it (not that they'd need to) would be the US and France. unless Spain is planning some revolutionary alteration to the Eurofighter or a big new carrier I can't see that happening.

what about Rafale M ??

[ASFC]

what about Rafale M ??

On a Carrier Spain is likely to be able to afford and operate??

our carrier (PDA), is already near the end of its operational life and many people believe that the LHD (JCI) is not its substitute.
some believe that there will be a new aircraft carrier ...
but I imagine this would be a project to within about 10 years.

I do not think we have a new aircraft carrier, now we do not need and whether we need a wing engaged in a particular time may use the LHD.

Whilst I agree the new LHD is not a full blown Carrier, I suspect what new Harrier replacement Spain will buy will be constrained by what can be operated of any new Carrier and the LHD, for commonality and cost reasons.

[zeven]

On a Carrier Spain is likely to be able to afford and operate??



Whilst I agree the new LHD is not a full blown Carrier, I suspect what new Harrier replacement Spain will buy will be constrained by what can be operated of any new Carrier and the LHD, for commonality and cost reasons.

You're probably right.

[swerve]

our carrier (PDA), is already near the end of its operational life and many people believe that the LHD (JCI) is not its substitute.
some believe that there will be a new aircraft carrier ...
but I imagine this would be a project to within about 10 years.

I do not think we have a new aircraft carrier, now we do not need and whether we need a wing engaged in a particular time may use the LHD.
It can't be a substitute for PdA unless Spain is willing to accept a cut in both aviation & amphibious capability of the Armada, which seems unlikely immediately after building up both.

JC1 makes sense as a primarily amphibious ship, with a secondary role as an auxiliary carrier, & that implies a main carrier. Such a carrier would have to be STOVL, or the auxiliary carrier capability of JC1 would become useless. That implies F-35B, as there is no other STOVL aircraft in production, under development, or planned.

[swerve]

...a link to see the new patrolmen (BAM):

Resultados de la Búsqueda de imágenes de Google de http://www.infodefensa.com/noticias/imgs/BAM1dentro.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.infodefensa.com/noticias/imgs/BAM1dentro.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.infodefensa.com/esp/noticias/noticias.asp%3Fcod%3D1234&usg=__7XDMzQOS7GoVZcWcxyvISth4Myw=&h=274&w=300&sz=93&hl=es&start=3&sig2=KGdV_6sivMbWgLpH8zlYzw&um=1&tbnid=NUausk5ZCyDfjM:&tbnh=106&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpatrulleros%2BBAM%26hl%3Des%26rls%3Dc om.microsoft:es:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GTKR_es%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=etYZSvbEFoPSjAeGm-T1DA)

With a maximum displacement of 2490 tons and 93.9 meters in length, this new multipurpose patrol has the ability to navigate to 20.5 knots with a range of between 3,500 and 8700 miles.

Equipped with four engines and a crew of 35 sailors and the other 80 people on board this vessel has means of active defense and passive management platform and integrates the combat system 'Scomber.

With an estimated cost of 340 million euros per unit, each BAM may board a helicopter and is able to ocean surveillance missions, combating terrorism, pollution and drug trafficking.
I can't believe they really cost that much! That's incredibly expensive, for what it is. Are you sure that isn't the construction cost of all four combined? That would be 85 million each, which sounds more like it.

[citizen578]

With an estimated cost of 340 million euros per unit

I also thought ''blimey, you could get yourself 2 or 3 modern frigates for the same price''!

Alonso,
You're right that these are tough times for the military budgets, which is all the more reason not to expand into an unaffordable capability. Spain should not be looking at gucci bits of new kit, if it means sarcificing it's ability to conduct bread and butter operations to keep it's borders secure.

[swerve]

... these are tough times for the military budgets, which is all the more reason not to expand into an unaffordable capability. Spain should not be looking at gucci bits of new kit, if it means sarcificing it's ability to conduct bread and butter operations to keep it's borders secure.
Replacing PdA with another STOVL carrier, suitable for F-35B, isn't "expanding into a ,,, capability". It is, as closely as possible, maintaining an existing capability. And it won't cost anything for a few years, by which time the current economic crisis should be over.

Keeping Spains borders secure needs mostly coastguard equipment, these days. Naval & air force equipment which can assist the coastguard are also useful, e.g. the BAMs, maritime patrol aircraft (note that Spain has bought some CN-235 Persuader for exactly this role, to save having to use more expensive & capable upgraded P-3s). It's all in hand, & affordable.

[citizen578]

Replacing PdA with another STOVL carrier, suitable for F-35B, isn't "expanding into a ,,, capability". It is, as closely as possible, maintaining an existing capability. And it won't cost anything for a few years, by which time the current economic crisis should be over.



I was responding to this:


our carrier (PDA), is already near the end of its operational life and many people believe that the LHD (JCI) is not its substitute.
some believe that there will be a new aircraft carrier ...
but I imagine this would be a project to within about 10 years


To have a dedicated STOVL carrier, as well as the JCI, is an expansion in capability, which does not seem supportable, when Spain cannot afford to keep much of its current fleet at sea. I accept that the financial crisis is having an effect on deployments etc, but if the Spanish Navy is this sensitive to financial strain then you have to wonder how on earth they will support such a fleet, even after economic recovery.

[swerve]

I was responding to this:
I know.

[Alonso Quijano]

I also thought ''blimey, you could get yourself 2 or 3 modern frigates for the same price''!

Alonso,
You're right that these are tough times for the military budgets, which is all the more reason not to expand into an unaffordable capability. Spain should not be looking at gucci bits of new kit, if it means sarcificing it's ability to conduct bread and butter operations to keep it's borders secure.

've got two right, the price of new ships action maritima (BAM) is 340 million euros "4 units".

http://www.belt.es/noticias/2005/mayo/25/fa.JPG

I also thought ''blimey, you could get yourself 2 or 3 modern frigates for the same price''!


rather, the new frigate F-105 will cost 700 million euros Spain, only one ...

[Alonso Quijano]

I was responding to this:



To have a dedicated STOVL carrier, as well as the JCI, is an expansion in capability, which does not seem supportable, when Spain cannot afford to keep much of its current fleet at sea. I accept that the financial crisis is having an effect on deployments etc, but if the Spanish Navy is this sensitive to financial strain then you have to wonder how on earth they will support such a fleet, even after economic recovery.


I do not understand that what they want to do.
Spain wants to remove or pull them away from patrol and these stone-age.

http://xornalgalicia.com/archivo/enero/acebedo-archivo.jpg

not planning to repair and modernize them for only one more year of life

as of now the task of border control in our waters will guard civilian boats.

http://infodefensa.com/noticias/imgs/patrullero.jpg

To address the growing challenges to the border control of our waters, the Civil Guard was equipped with a modern ocean-going vessels, the style of the U.S. Coast Guard. A vessel of 73 meters in length and 1,700 tons of displacement.

and on this page you can watch all kinds of boats, patrol boats and has the Civil Guard and Customs to monitor our shores today.

Resultados de la Búsqueda de imágenes de Google de http://www.losbarcosdeeugenio.com/loba/imagenes/fotos/barcos/LBAA/SMGC-M24-RioCervera.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.losbarcosdeeugenio.com/loba/imagenes/fotos/barcos/LBAA/SMGC-M24-RioCervera.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.losbarcosdeeugenio.com/loba/paginas/LBAA.html&usg=__t1oOAanJh3aBeG_OnMF7jgRnBFM=&h=315&w=550&sz=32&hl=es&start=72&sig2=AGWHHnPdbI60DGeHh8ODjw&um=1&tbnid=gVQRXdUWCW1NcM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpatrullero%2Bde%2Bla%2Bguardia%2Bcivi l%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Des%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:es:I E-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GTKR_es%26sa%3DN%26start%3D54 %26um%3D1&ei=yPMaSvD3KtLR-QaP1YXQDg)

nor want to spend much money on these submarines that appear to be the epoch of isaac peral.

Archivo:Spanish-submarine-Galerna.jpg - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Spanish-submarine-Galerna.jpg)

we want this:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7057/s80at1.jpg


Spanish navy can keep all your ships?
the answer is YES.

Could have a new carrier?
Yes, because if we buy a new aircraft carrier to sell or give the PDA down.

Could Spain maintain a new aircraft carrier and the LHD?
YES, that when the LHD and the service withdrew Spain 2 Duke landed class Pizarro.

and finally, which country has all their ships while sailing the oceans for no reason?
in Spain when a ship does not have a mission or some maneuvers, the boat is usually in port maintenance and saving costs useless.

[StingrayOZ]

Any word on what spain wants to replace is carrier? How many airacraft are they looking at? 1 for 1?

The JC1 is such a spiffy looking ship and being very compatable with the F-35 would be a reasonable place to start.

With say 12 aircraft, you would be looking at around 1200t of fuel to last 14 days before resupply.

This is simular to the amount of aviation fuel carried by the USMC wasp class. (still a lot less than 8500t in a CVN). I don't know but this would appear to about doubling fuel space for the JC1 (I have heard around 700t). This is a minium, more would be better(say to 2000t, 3000t even better). Adding 4 weapon lifts.

Ideally I would allow aircraft to take off/land regardless of what state the lifts are in. So adding a 10m plug, so that the rear lift can be indesposed, but still launch aircraft. But the existing layout is workable.

Rear dock could be reduced or removed to make additional room.

I would imagine in surge conditions up to 24 F-35 could be crammed on board. However you would need sub weekly resupply to operate at this level.

These modifications would make a carrier about ~2 times more efficent at running fixed wing airops as a regular JC1.

But If you build 3 (or 2) JC1's each operating ~6 x F-35B's with a share pool of 3 for maintence. Then you have a carrier that can very effectively operate 18 aircraft (21 carried, 21 surge). You have 3 launch/recovery areas (can be located in different areas of the battlespace), room for helo ops, 2100t of aviation fuel, 6 aircraft lifts, 3 weapon lifts, way more hanger space (CVN sized combined), way more surge capability (like 36 aircraft if you could spare a resupply ship to continually refuel them as they would deplete 700t in a few days at any intense sortie rate). One ship could be customised by having extensive aircraft mainence facilities, but shared between all 3 ships.

And you would also have huge amphibious capability.

Perhaps a JC1 with the following modifications, 2 additional weapon lifts, 300t additional aviation fuel store. These combined would mean a 2 ship fleet would have:

4 aircraft lifts
2000t avation stores (~300 sorties)
6 weapon lifts
9500m2 of deck space
6600m2 of hanger space

Quiet reasonable. Fuel stores are still light (20% of a CVN), but as long as the carrier is operating with allies or not too far for a high frequency low volume decent supply line to be established. Ideally you would have 2000t of aviation fuel onboard each. Then you could increase the tempo of sorties to a reasonable level so you could operate 18 aircraft between them.

[StevoJH]

For starters, modifications to the JCI class to turn them into real carriers would be:
- Remove the Well Deck
- Engines for 25+ Knots
- Increased Munitions stores and improved munitions handling equipment.
- Vastly increased fuel bunkerage for Jet fuel.
- Leave aft lift as is (its designed like that so Chinooks can be stored in the hanger.

Stingray, as far as i can tell they already have 2 lifts, that is plenty given the size of the airgroup, plus given the take off run needed for STOVL aircraft, those lifts should keep up with the take offs anyway.

[StingrayOZ]

Well until the F-35 is operational we won't know exactly how it will perform, but the british have a extra long runway for heavy take offs. An extra 10m would be useful.

I wonder how to increase its speed, two additional pods powered by two additional LM2500.

Maybe sacrifice the lower deck for additional engines, fuel, weapons and spare stores.

[StevoJH]

Well until the F-35 is operational we won't know exactly how it will perform, but the british have a extra long runway for heavy take offs. An extra 10m would be useful.

I wonder how to increase its speed, two additional pods powered by two additional LM2500.

Maybe sacrifice the lower deck for additional engines, fuel, weapons and spare stores.

HMS Invincible Runway: ~170m
JCI runway: 202m
HMS Queen Elizabeth will be 280 metres long but i'm not sure how much of this will normally be used for take offs since i'm fairly sure the JBD's are around halfway down the flight deck.

[swerve]

I wonder how to increase its speed, two additional pods powered by two additional LM2500.

Maybe sacrifice the lower deck for additional engines, fuel, weapons and spare stores.
1. Still got the wrong hull shape. Needs some remodelling.
2. Er - yes. Of course.

For starters, modifications to the JCI class to turn them into real carriers would be:
- Remove the Well Deck
- Engines for 25+ Knots
- Increased Munitions stores and improved munitions handling equipment.
- Vastly increased fuel bunkerage for Jet fuel.

When you say "Remove the Well Deck", do you mean remove the whole dock/heavy vehicle deck, not just the dock itself?. You shouldn't need all that volume for the extra bunkerage, munitions stores & engines.
Also -
Change hull shape (currently designed for maximum internal volume & modest cruise speed. It's inefficient for higher speeds)
Increase flight deck area.

Whoops! We've designed a new ship.

Tell you what: let's start with Cavour. :D

[Alonso Quijano]

huauuu!

I first want to clarify that the JCI is "not an aircraft carrier."
The JCI is a strategic projection ship, "created for assignments with Marines amphibians, heavy trucks, landing craft and all materials and logistics.
It also has a hospital.
The JCI is so if you have a platform that can be used to support our carriers PDA, or its substitute when in dry dock.
The JCI is designed to provide some air support to troops landing.
if we want an aircraft carrier with all the capabilities to make it a perfect carrier, we had not designed the JCI, we would have created another type of vessel, maybe something like this:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2420/nuevosproyectosizar02jj3.jpg

some 30,000 tons and only dedicated to the work of an Air Force board.


The JCI is designed for landings amphibians but is also a multipurpose Swiss army knife, in other missions if you want to use single carrier, you can use throughout the warehouse to store airplanes and helicopters, deck also with type harrier fighter or F-35B, take your hand and a supply ship as our future BAC to provide all the fuel you need.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6708/g455bac20cantabria20600fj9.jpg

but I repeat that JCI is not an aircraft carrier "and therefore does not have the same characteristics that can have a good carrier, but if it can be used as an additional platform.
logically, and if the ship is full of heavy tanks and soldiers, the only aircraft which can provide is the one at cover and little more.