Varyag Moved to Drydock?

[Feanor]

While on another forum, I found this interesting piece of information. Photos of the Varyag in drydock.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc60/FeanorHighElven/0e0a815e0aa245a0992c734.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc60/FeanorHighElven/24e526u.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc60/FeanorHighElven/3d432f5e956247bd867d80c.jpg

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc60/FeanorHighElven/938c6947115f4a7d8b145a2.jpg

Can anyone confirm this?

[AegisFC]

Found this over at Galrahn's blog.

http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/04/if-chinese-aircraft-carrier-moves-2.html

The ex-Varyag was moved to the other side of Dalian shipyard today, most likely for the purposes of being fitted out. Based on the 3rd photo below, it looks to me (and I am ready to be corrected) that the carrier has been moved to 38.937131N / 121.611831E, which is about a 2 mile trip by sea.


It'll be interesting to see how long it stays in dry dock.

[Feanor]

Wasn't it bought with the agreement that it will never be used for combat again? And wouldn't they still need some sort of navalied Flanker to use it anyways?

It'll be interesting to see if a contract does eventually come through on re-opening the Su-33 production line.

[AegisFC]

Wasn't it bought with the agreement that it will never be used for combat again? And wouldn't they still need some sort of navalied Flanker to use it anyways?

It'll be interesting to see if a contract does eventually come through on re-opening the Su-33 production line.

I'm not quite sure to be honest. I do know that the story is convoluted, supposedly the ship was bought by a Chinese company that wanted to turn it into a theme park (China has several of these already), that company was later revealed to be a sham and now we have the ship being refitted.

The ship may never be fully fitted out as a warship, they may just want it for training purposes before building their own.

[tphuang]

Wasn't it bought with the agreement that it will never be used for combat again? And wouldn't they still need some sort of navalied Flanker to use it anyways?

It'll be interesting to see if a contract does eventually come through on re-opening the Su-33 production line.
I don't know the original condition of purchase, but I can see that there could be some agreement under the table at the time. They certainly didn't want to alarm the world with that purchase, so they would obviously say that it will never be used for combat. But I'm sure the Ukrainians knew that it wasn't meant to become a floating theme park.

As for naval fighter, there are probably two domestic project going on right now. There is the J-11BJ that I think already has a prototype (don't know its flight status), but I think it will probably be similar to the T-10K they got from Ukraine. (They also are likely to do training in Ukraine, it's clear that Ukraine is involved in this. But it's played down to not make anyone look bad.) And then, they also have a project for a next generation naval fighter that is apparently going to be able to do supercruise.

[hyalitemarine]

Recent (September 2009) photographs of the Shi Lang (Varyag) show that significant resources have been expended to rid the vessel's superstructure of outdated EWS. If the Shi Lang was strictly a non-combat & training platform, there would be no need for the expensive & radical superstructure modifications, as existing EWS would simply be adapted to the existing housings with only minor changes.

Given that the Chinese have bothered with an Island do-over, it is likely that the Shi Lang is more than just a training vessel. The Shi Lang will be fitted with state-of-the-art EWS that requires the radical superstructure redesign. Outfitted in the latest EWS technology, China intends for the Shi Lang to be the equal of any other nation's capital ships, in peace or combat.

[Feanor]

Would you by any chance happen to have links to those photos?

[hyalitemarine]

Vs 3728


3729

[Toptob]

China Air and Naval Power (http://china-pla.blogspot.com/)

This guy keeps a close eye on the chinese armed forces. And he thinks they're defininetly doing something with the varyag.

And why shouldn't they? Because they said so? I doubt China cares about that.

[kev 99]

I believe that last photo is has been rather heavily edited.

[Crusader2000]

Vs 3728


3729



I seriously doubt that many still believe that China is not going to return the ex-Varyag to Service. Which, is clearly evident by the pace of reconstruction.

[hyalitemarine]

It seems that popular opinion has deemed the totally stripped island photo of last month to be a photo-shopped fake, which I agree, since only the single, length wise, image seems to exist.

The correct state of the carrier seems to show about 50% or so removal of the Island, as supported by numerous photos taken by different angles. Some people claim that the Island tear down to this current level is complete and that Island rebuilding with the requisite EWS is underway.

No photos have leaked out as of yet of the hull area below the line of site inside the dry-dock area.

Here's one of the purported latest photos of Varyag/ Shi Lang.

[Crusader2000]

It seems that popular opinion has deemed the totally stripped island photo of last month to be a photo-shopped fake, which I agree, since only the single, length wise, image seems to exist.

The correct state of the carrier seems to show about 50% or so removal of the Island, as supported by numerous photos taken by different angles. Some people claim that the Island tear down to this current level is complete and that Island rebuilding with the requisite EWS is underway.

No photos have leaked out as of yet of the hull area below the line of site inside the dry-dock area.

Here's one of the purported latest photos of Varyag/ Shi Lang.


Very interesting photo............Personally, I've always thought the Island was excessively large in the first place. Clearly, this is just another piece of the puzzle. Showing the world that the ex-Varyag is going to return to service. As China would have no reason to totally rebuild the Island. Just to turn the ship into somekind of Amusement Attraction.

[Feanor]

I don't think anyone of us took the amusement park claims at face value. The question is 1) when and 2) training or actual combat use.

[Crusader2000]

China Defense Blog: A full scale mockup of the Varyag is under construction near Wuhan. (http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/10/full-scale-mockup-of-vargyag-is-under.html)

[Salty Dog]

China Defense Blog: A full scale mockup of the Varyag is under construction near Wuhan. (http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/10/full-scale-mockup-of-vargyag-is-under.html)

Nice pics. It would be interesting to see if this facility shows up in Google Earth.

[Crusader2000]

Nice pics. It would be interesting to see if this facility shows up in Google Earth.


Clearly, China is shifting its New Carrier Program into HIGH GEAR!

[Crusader2000]

It seems that popular opinion has deemed the totally stripped island photo of last month to be a photo-shopped fake, which I agree, since only the single, length wise, image seems to exist.

The correct state of the carrier seems to show about 50% or so removal of the Island, as supported by numerous photos taken by different angles. Some people claim that the Island tear down to this current level is complete and that Island rebuilding with the requisite EWS is underway.

No photos have leaked out as of yet of the hull area below the line of site inside the dry-dock area.

Here's one of the purported latest photos of Varyag/ Shi Lang.


Did you see these pics?

China Defense Blog: A full scale mockup of the Varyag is under construction near Wuhan. (http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2009/10/full-scale-mockup-of-vargyag-is-under.html)

[swerve]

Nice pics. It would be interesting to see if this facility shows up in Google Earth.
Google Earth is not updated very frequently. The pictures of my garden, for example, are a few years out of date.

Someone has checked, & the pictures for that area are too old to show this structure.

[Crusader2000]

I wonder how the PLAN J-15 is progressing? Is it a direct copy of the Russian Su-33 or a Chinese Naval Development of the current PLAAF Flanker?

[Feanor]

It's probably a mix of the two.

[Crusader2000]

It's probably a mix of the two.


In what way???

[Feanor]

Well they have the T-10K, but it doesn't seem to be enough, as they were recently trying to negotiate a deal for a limited number of Su-33. So I take it they will borrow what they can from the T-10K, but will need to develop parts of the required technology themselves.

[Crusader2000]

Well they have the T-10K, but it doesn't seem to be enough, as they were recently trying to negotiate a deal for a limited number of Su-33. So I take it they will borrow what they can from the T-10K, but will need to develop parts of the required technology themselves.



Seems like I read something many years ago. About China purchasing the plans for the Su-33???

[tphuang]

well, they also bought a su-25UTG off the Ukrainians, so they have 2 naval aircrafts that they can study in developing their own naval fighter. We don't know exactly what it will be until it comes out. Most likely, the biggest difference will be inside, not outside.

[Crusader2000]

Funny, it sounds like the Russians are giving up there Su-33's for new Mig-29K's. While, the Chinese develope a domestic Model of the PLAAF Flanker. Which, is very similar to Russian Su-33's. (i.e. J-15)



Personally, I think the PLAN is getting a better deal.;)

[turin]

The Russian Su-33 are coming to the end of their service life. The production line for this aircraft does not exist anymore. On the other hand, the Mig-29K is in production for the Indian carrier, possibly with additional orders for more carriers later on. Therefore for the Russians its just common sense to simply build more Mig-29K for their own need. The Chinese on the other hand have to spend quite some money on R&D in order to get what they need. No synergies there.

Last but not least the capabilities of the new Mig-29K have increased signifcantly over the older model developed in Soviet times.

[Crusader2000]

The Russian Su-33 are coming to the end of their service life. The production line for this aircraft does not exist anymore. On the other hand, the Mig-29K is in production for the Indian carrier, possibly with additional orders for more carriers later on. Therefore for the Russians its just common sense to simply build more Mig-29K for their own need. The Chinese on the other hand have to spend quite some money on R&D in order to get what they need. No synergies there.

Last but not least the capabilities of the new Mig-29K have increased signifcantly over the older model developed in Soviet times.



All very true. Yet, China had expressed a great deal of interest in the Su-33 for its future carrier program. Now China will go it alone with its own Naval Version of the Flanker and Russia will get nothing????:confused:

[StevoJH]

All very true. Yet, China had expressed a great deal of interest in the Su-33 for its future carrier program. Now China will go it alone with its own Naval Version of the Flanker and Russia will get nothing????:confused:

No, Russia will get Mig 29K's, which have already had their development paid for by the Indian Navy.

[Crusader2000]

No, Russia will get Mig 29K's, which have already had their development paid for by the Indian Navy.

My point was Russia could also get paid for the development of the Su-33 for China.


Remember, India is purchasing more and more Military Hardware from the West. So, Russia needs to see to anyone that is buying.........

[Feanor]

China wasn't willing to get a large enough order of Su-33s. That's probably another reason for why the VMF got the MiG-29K. Also it's pretty clear that Russia is orienting more towards long term partnership with India then China, who insists on developing it's own hardware.

[Crusader2000]

China wasn't willing to get a large enough order of Su-33s. That's probably another reason for why the VMF got the MiG-29K. Also it's pretty clear that Russia is orienting more towards long term partnership with India then China, who insists on developing it's own hardware.


True, from recent press reports. It was "claimed" that China was only interested in a limited number of aircraft. (i.e. Su-33's) Yet, wouldn't it be in Russia's interest to at least make some money off the deal??? Especially, considering that China would likely just go it alone and develop its own Naval Version of the Flanker without Russia's Help!


Also, while its obvious that India will continue to buy Military Hardware from Russia. It is in fact purchasing more and more equipment from the West and the US in particular. (P-8's, C-130's, E-2D's, etc. etc.) So, Russia's relationship with China is paramount. Especially, if its hope to be a viable player in the Global Export Arms Market.


Really, the next decade or two are critical for Russia. Remember, its Military Aircraft Sales are small and its Naval Construction is on a sharp decline. Only is Air Defense Systems are generating any reasonable interest from the market............

[turin]

Russias relationship to China in terms of arms supplies is dwindling and coming to an end, not because of choices Russia made, but because of those by China. A truly cooperative effort, such as with India on several aspects, never really existed between Russia and China. Its not in Chinas interest, so much is clear from pretty much any R&D program they got going. Russia and China are geopolitical rivals, their day-to-day politics follow mutual interests in some regard, but do not imply close cooperation. That much can be seen even in regard to aspects, where they follow somewhat of a similar course in opposition to the US. Their cooperation via the Shanghai organization and their bilateral military training exercises in my opinion serve much more as a confirmation and reassurance of friendly mutual relations rather than a more intense strategic cooperation

On the other hand, India does have some vital interest in cooperation with Russia. They both want to keep China in check, yet do not have contested geopolitical areas between the two of them. Their cooperation on the level of arms procurement proved far healthier for Russia, in the combination of income, long-term commitments and the respect of intellectual property.

What it comes down to in this case, as was noted before, is, that China would have bought a couple of Su-33. Not enough to justify a profitable export order for Russia, but enough for China to see the design in detail and go indigenous on their own terms later on. Russia would end up doing a favor to a geopolitical rival, as far as the Pacific theater is concerned, but would not get anything significant out of it. The Chinese of course, still can develop and produce that fighter in her own right, but it will take them longer, causing more costs and overall delay their effort, all of which is in Russias interest. It wont hurt the Russians more than it already has (because of the tech transfers that occurred in the past).

India has always been manouvering between arms procurements from the West and from Russia, its one of their strategical objectives. For this very reason they will never completely abandon Russia as a partner in this regard. China on the other hand will abandon any foreign cooperation as soon as they can do it on their own, as far as significant programs are concerned. Every major procurement they had in the last decade shows that very well.

[Crusader2000]

Russias relationship to China in terms of arms supplies is dwindling and coming to an end, not because of choices Russia made, but because of those by China. A truly cooperative effort, such as with India on several aspects, never really existed between Russia and China. Its not in Chinas interest, so much is clear from pretty much any R&D program they got going. Russia and China are geopolitical rivals, their day-to-day politics follow mutual interests in some regard, but do not imply close cooperation. That much can be seen even in regard to aspects, where they follow somewhat of a similar course in opposition to the US. Their cooperation via the Shanghai organization and their bilateral military training exercises in my opinion serve much more as a confirmation and reassurance of friendly mutual relations rather than a more intense strategic cooperation

On the other hand, India does have some vital interest in cooperation with Russia. They both want to keep China in check, yet do not have contested geopolitical areas between the two of them. Their cooperation on the level of arms procurement proved far healthier for Russia, in the combination of income, long-term commitments and the respect of intellectual property.

What it comes down to in this case, as was noted before, is, that China would have bought a couple of Su-33. Not enough to justify a profitable export order for Russia, but enough for China to see the design in detail and go indigenous on their own terms later on. Russia would end up doing a favor to a geopolitical rival, as far as the Pacific theater is concerned, but would not get anything significant out of it. The Chinese of course, still can develop and produce that fighter in her own right, but it will take them longer, causing more costs and overall delay their effort, all of which is in Russias interest. It wont hurt the Russians more than it already has (because of the tech transfers that occurred in the past).

India has always been manouvering between arms procurements from the West and from Russia, its one of their strategical objectives. For this very reason they will never completely abandon Russia as a partner in this regard. China on the other hand will abandon any foreign cooperation as soon as they can do it on their own, as far as significant programs are concerned. Every major procurement they had in the last decade shows that very well.

Well, I agree with the majority of your remarks. Yet, I see India moving more and more to the West. So, my point is Russia needs to foster every Arms Relationship. Regardless, if its China or whoever. Its also worth noting that while China has come along ways. It still has areas that it need significant help with. (Submarines for example) Plus, the fact that Russia needs to keep the US in check. In some ways more than China. As the US is the leader of several major Military Alliances. Which, are vastly more powerful than China.

[turin]

Again, this is no choice to be made by Russia. China would have to come forth with the prospect for large-scale orders or long-term cooperation, as they did in the past with the Su-27SK/J-11 program or, in naval matters, their orders for SSKs. This will not happen anymore, the Chinese enquiries about any tech transfer conceivable have made that very clear. The only thing they currently need in somewhat larger numbers is large transports and tankers (also as airframes suitable for AEWC conversion), ie. Il-76s. Incidentally the only current contract between the two countries adresses this issue. There is a smaller, but still productive demand for helos as well, but thats it.

India on contrast still orders large amounts of Russian hardware, see their ongoing procurement of T-90s (local manufacturing plus kits) and plans to induct significant numbers of foreign systems, as with the MRCA competition.

Naturally Russia likes to have a share in any market, so there is no decision for or against anyone, but as I tried to show, the Chinese do not offer any kind of deal that would be productive and lucrative for Russia.

Btw: the Chinese sub development is now a stand-alone program. There is no prospect there for Russia making any kind of money. whatsoever. Russia is not playing the good samaritan helping out with know-how that can just as well backfire later on. That would simply be foolish.

[Feanor]

True, from recent press reports. It was "claimed" that China was only interested in a limited number of aircraft. (i.e. Su-33's) Yet, wouldn't it be in Russia's interest to at least make some money off the deal??? Especially, considering that China would likely just go it alone and develop its own Naval Version of the Flanker without Russia's Help!

I think I had a conversation on the subject with you before Crusader. The deal was completely unprofitable, because of the small numbers ordered, and a need to restart the production line for what is essentially a different airframe.

Really, the next decade or two are critical for Russia. Remember, its Military Aircraft Sales are small

Small compared to what? Or is the giant MKI program small? Coupled with many other Flanker orders from abroad, the aviation industry is perhaps the more successful of Russian defense industries.

[Crusader2000]

I think I had a conversation on the subject with you before Crusader. The deal was completely unprofitable, because of the small numbers ordered, and a need to restart the production line for what is essentially a different airframe.

You are correct that it would hardly be profitable for Russia to produce a hand full of new built Su-33's for China alone. Yet, Russia could have at least provided Technical, Design, and maybe even some Components for the Project. Instead China will develop its own Version of the Naval Flanker and Russia gets nothing.:(


Small compared to what? Or is the giant MKI program small? Coupled with many other Flanker orders from abroad, the aviation industry is perhaps the more successful of Russian defense industries.

Respectfully, other than the MKI being produced in India for the IAF. The Flanker has been sold in relatively small numbers worldwide. Though, I will agree that the aviation sector as a whole. Is the most successful of the Major Defense Industries with in Russia.

Yet, with that said I think you are missing my point. Over the last decade or two Russia's biggest customers were India and China. Now India is purchasing more and more equipment from the West and China producing more and more of its own.

In short Russia will need to find new customers and get whatever business it can from wherever in can. Regardless, of the size and scope.

[Feanor]

In other words Russia needs to diversify. Yes. And it's not like they haven't been trying.

The Su-33 bet (at least it seems to me) is that the Chinese need our help badly enough to make a larger order. Apparently that gamble hasn't paid off.

[Crusader2000]

In other words Russia needs to diversify. Yes. And it's not like they haven't been trying.

The Su-33 bet (at least it seems to me) is that the Chinese need our help badly enough to make a larger order. Apparently that gamble hasn't paid off.


Really, China would be "wise" to leverage Russian Military Technology for its own advancement. Yet, seems content to go it alone? Which, is a big mistake in my opinion.

[plasmahawk]

In other words Russia needs to diversify. Yes. And it's not like they haven't been trying.

The Su-33 bet (at least it seems to me) is that the Chinese need our help badly enough to make a larger order. Apparently that gamble hasn't paid off.

Agree on diversification for Russia but have big doubts on the Chinese improvements. I sat eagerly awaiting the show of the New and unique hardware at the 60th anniversary parade this October First. The H-6s flying over Tien Men was weak. I rarely sink to using words such as weak, but the Chinese have been banging on a plane that is 40 years old, some modifications are made, its lighter, has new engines ( out of the Il 76 I think ) and some radar and internal improvements. But come on, 40 years, and Chinese have not produced a Tu22 or B1 or a V-Bomber type aircraft? Or had taken this time to do a redesign, to at least create an Myasichev style M4 bomber with better range?

The fact that the strategic bomber of choice for a nation willing to flex its geopolitical strength is a Tu-16, puts me into great doubt about the aircraft carrier's unique capability. Who knows can they get the J11 to be airworthy alone, or with Ukraine's help? Or will they just go and buy some US World war 2 planes, maybe some Phantoms and F-8s to fly off the Varyag for the next fourty years.

I am not trying ( I repeat again ) to be very anti/bashful, but the parade of never before seen technologies, composed of nothing remarkable really lowered my expectations of China's military capability and its R&D.

H6-DU tanker at the parade : http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/china60_10_01/c22_20570501.jpg


Plasma

[HKSDU]

Really, China would be "wise" to leverage Russian Military Technology for its own advancement. Yet, seems content to go it alone? Which, is a big mistake in my opinion.
What sort of system does China need of Russia to leverage its advancement? Besides helo and transports which are the main systems much of China systems are either on par or surpasses that of Russian origin. Another reason why China wants to do it alone, is cause they want to build up their domestic technology sector by providing projects to their own firms, rather then relying on another nation. Which sometimes results in delay in delivery date, cost increase, poor quality, heft price tag, and the extras that are needed to run the system.

I personally find one reason why India is always in joint-development with Russia, is its inability to domestically produce or manufacture significant modern military systems. Relying on another nation for military system is never good, as they can simply cut off the supply when they feel like it. And you'll be standing there, without a domestically developed military system manufacturing line.

Another topic about the Su-33, I've posted a long and detailed explanation on my personal thinking of why the Su-33 deal didn't go through on either the Su-33/Flanker thread awhile ago.

[Crusader2000]

What sort of system does China need of Russia to leverage its advancement? Besides helo and transports which are the main systems much of China systems are either on par or surpasses that of Russian origin. Another reason why China wants to do it alone, is cause they want to build up their domestic technology sector by providing projects to their own firms, rather then relying on another nation. Which sometimes results in delay in delivery date, cost increase, poor quality, heft price tag, and the extras that are needed to run the system.

I personally find one reason why India is always in joint-development with Russia, is its inability to domestically produce or manufacture significant modern military systems. Relying on another nation for military system is never good, as they can simply cut off the supply when they feel like it. And you'll be standing there, without a domestically developed military system manufacturing line.

Another topic about the Su-33, I've posted a long and detailed explanation on my personal thinking of why the Su-33 deal didn't go through on either the Su-33/Flanker thread awhile ago.



China has made great strides. (i.e. J-10 for example) Yet, its still a very long ways from catching the Russian's and unlike India. It doesn't have access to European or US Military Technology!


Remember, the current J-10 is approximately the equal of many western designs. Many of which are decades old. Other designs like the Chinese Badger Bomber are flat out obsolete. Then let's talk of China's Submarine Fleet! (Noisy)


In short China has shown great improvement. Yet, that hardly means they are at parity or can go it alone anytime soon.

[HKSDU]

China has made great strides. (i.e. J-10 for example) Yet, its still a very long ways from catching the Russian's and unlike India. It doesn't have access to European or US Military Technology!


Remember, the current J-10 is approximately the equal of many western designs. Many of which are decades old. Other designs like the Chinese Badger Bomber are flat out obsolete. Then let's talk of China's Submarine Fleet! (Noisy)


In short China has shown great improvement. Yet, that hardly means they are at parity or can go it alone anytime soon.
True, the J-10 does match many modern mainstream fighters, which are decades old. But that being said it doesn't necessarily mean obsolete due to it being in service for decade or so. Most airforces still have Cold War era fighter based designs, even the USAF itself. I said "much" of Chinese systems not all, there are still areas which China still lag behind Russia, areas of Heli, Transport, Engines (though its marine engines are starting to pick up pace).

SSN/SSBN are debatable, cause we really have no specifications or even close estimations to their performances. I wouldn't say China submarine forces are noisy, well not all of them. Russian bought Kilo is one of the quietest submarines in service around the world. Then you got the modern Song/Yuan class submarines, Ming/Romeo yeah there obsolete though they are mostly for training/reserves. The Badger or H-6 is indeed an old design though it’s still has its role as a missile carrier for LACM. The USAF also utilizes old obsolete systems; one example is the B-52, produced in the mid 1950's. Despite being obsolete or old it still has its role as a bomb carrier.

Indian have a more flexible option of European Union, USA, Russia. Though reliant is too heavily on foreign military systems, making its domestic technology sector lag behind as if it was more domestic. Another factor is that you cannot export the system because the rights aren’t yours, so you’ll have an export restraint unless the other party gives you the authority.

[Toptob]

What sort of system does China need of Russia to leverage its advancement? Besides helo and transports which are the main systems much of China systems are either on par or surpasses that of Russian origin.

Maybe the material that is in service with the Russian armed forces. But there's no doubt in my mind that Russian industry is far superior in production capabilities and design.
Furthermore, it could very well be that the Chinese are on par, but not that much through effort of their own. Even the designs that are 'original' are not groundbreaking, and doubtlessly have had a lot of input from other sources i.e. espionage and the sort.
And it go's to show, because China is still dependant on import for its jet engines. Apparently those designs proved more difficult to steal then those of airframes.

I think Russia did good not selling any SU-33's to the Chinese, they would've bought three and then steal the design. Just as they steal any other design in any other field of industry (as you might suspect, this pisses me off, as I used to study industrial design so I know the Chinese scourge)

Let them think of something themselves, I'd go even further and say lets boycot china period. With everything but above all, dont let em look at your military equipment.

But that's not what this thread is about, so my apologies for the offtopic.
[ontopic]
Why would they build a mockup for training which they cannot land aircraft on? Are they gonna train launch procedures or something? Seems a little much just for that.. I dont get it, please explain why they build such a big and axpensive building to put a mock up flanker on it?

[Salty Dog]

Why would they build a mockup for training which they cannot land aircraft on? Are they gonna train launch procedures or something? Seems a little much just for that.. I dont get it, please explain why they build such a big and axpensive building to put a mock up flanker on it?

The PLAN should conduct launch and recovery procedure/training at their airfields.

The mock up will most likely be used for aircraft flight deck handling and spotting which for folks with no experience will be quite a challenge. PLAN would not able to do this on their carrier in the shipyard.

Other tasks such as sorting out flight deck markings and aircraft tie downs, aircraft refueling/rearming, flight deck emergencies, etc. can be done at the mock up flight deck.

The "island" mock up itself could be a training facility for aircraft controllers and to sort out new combat systems configurations (recall the AEGIS facility in Moorestown, NJ).

I wonder if the mock up has aircraft elevators.

IMO a serious commitment for PLAN's carrier program.

[HKSDU]

Maybe the material that is in service with the Russian armed forces. But there's no doubt in my mind that Russian industry is far superior in production capabilities and design.
Furthermore, it could very well be that the Chinese are on par, but not that much through effort of their own. Even the designs that are 'original' are not groundbreaking, and doubtlessly have had a lot of input from other sources i.e. espionage and the sort.
And it go's to show, because China is still dependant on import for its jet engines. Apparently those designs proved more difficult to steal then those of airframes.

I think Russia did good not selling any SU-33's to the Chinese, they would've bought three and then steal the design. Just as they steal any other design in any other field of industry (as you might suspect, this pisses me off, as I used to study industrial design so I know the Chinese scourge)

Let them think of something themselves, I'd go even further and say lets boycot china period. With everything but above all, dont let em look at your military equipment.

But that's not what this thread is about, so my apologies for the offtopic.
[ontopic]
Why would they build a mockup for training which they cannot land aircraft on? Are they gonna train launch procedures or something? Seems a little much just for that.. I dont get it, please explain why they build such a big and axpensive building to put a mock up flanker on it?
Harsh words, this isnt a political or country bashing thread, so keep it relevant to military affairs. Steal well China did buy the initial designs or was willing to, so its moreso reverse-engineering. I wont jump into this stealing and China copies everything debate cause I'm just sick of explaining or commenting on it. I'll just finish this part on China is 3rd Nation ever to launch a man into space, so that stamps a symbol on how China technology level is.

The building that replica the Carrier I'm sure the PLA wouldn't go through all the effort and cash to make something irrelevant and useless. Who knows deck procedure training or something maybe. Personally thoughts are a training/ testing ground in choosing carrier deck personal. Go through procedures, safety, signaling, positions, emergency actions, deck preparation. Just few possibilities on the purpose of the building maybe.

[tphuang]

Agree on diversification for Russia but have big doubts on the Chinese improvements. I sat eagerly awaiting the show of the New and unique hardware at the 60th anniversary parade this October First. The H-6s flying over Tien Men was weak. I rarely sink to using words such as weak, but the Chinese have been banging on a plane that is 40 years old, some modifications are made, its lighter, has new engines ( out of the Il 76 I think ) and some radar and internal improvements. But come on, 40 years, and Chinese have not produced a Tu22 or B1 or a V-Bomber type aircraft? Or had taken this time to do a redesign, to at least create an Myasichev style M4 bomber with better range?

The fact that the strategic bomber of choice for a nation willing to flex its geopolitical strength is a Tu-16, puts me into great doubt about the aircraft carrier's unique capability. Who knows can they get the J11 to be airworthy alone, or with Ukraine's help? Or will they just go and buy some US World war 2 planes, maybe some Phantoms and F-8s to fly off the Varyag for the next fourty years.

I am not trying ( I repeat again ) to be very anti/bashful, but the parade of never before seen technologies, composed of nothing remarkable really lowered my expectations of China's military capability and its R&D.

H6-DU tanker at the parade : http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/china60_10_01/c22_20570501.jpg


Plasma
I don't really see what your point is. If they have a need for tanker and it takes time to develop the transport needed for a tanker, then why not convert an existing platform that can be produced relatively quickly. As for something like H-6K, it gives them something that can carry 6 long range LACM and be used against pretty much every target that they would want to engage against in possible conflicts. In terms of current requirements, the H-6U tanker and H-6K bomber pretty much achieves all immediate requirements while they are waiting for the large transport to be developed. It's not about getting all platforms that are flashy and modern, but rather getting platforms that are useful for their needs.

China has made great strides. (i.e. J-10 for example) Yet, its still a very long ways from catching the Russian's and unlike India. It doesn't have access to European or US Military Technology!


Remember, the current J-10 is approximately the equal of many western designs. Many of which are decades old. Other designs like the Chinese Badger Bomber are flat out obsolete. Then let's talk of China's Submarine Fleet! (Noisy)

In short China has shown great improvement. Yet, that hardly means they are at parity or can go it alone anytime soon.
They are certainly at parity with West in many areas like the new strategic LACM, ballistic missile technology, HQ-9, ZTS-04, their many new UAV designs, J-10B, KJ-200/2000, the many new Y-8 Surveillance planes they have and 054A. As for submarine fleet, they actually have more modern diesel subs than any other navies when you add in Yuan, Kilos and Songs. You show very little understanding actually.
Maybe the material that is in service with the Russian armed forces. But there's no doubt in my mind that Russian industry is far superior in production capabilities and design.

Care to name anything in Russia armed force right now that matches 052C, 054A, 071 LPD, KJ-200/2000, new Chinese PGMs, KD-88, BZK005, BZK006 and the many Y-8 special missions platform they just developed?

Furthermore, it could very well be that the Chinese are on par, but not that much through effort of their own. Even the designs that are 'original' are not groundbreaking, and doubtlessly have had a lot of input from other sources i.e. espionage and the sort.
And it go's to show, because China is still dependant on import for its jet engines. Apparently those designs proved more difficult to steal then those of airframes.

they haven't stolen any air frames recently. They got license production and ToT. You obviously missed that part.

I think Russia did good not selling any SU-33's to the Chinese, they would've bought three and then steal the design. Just as they steal any other design in any other field of industry (as you might suspect, this pisses me off, as I used to study industrial design so I know the Chinese scourge)

As I mentioned many times before, the Russians are not selling su-33s because China wanted to make a small order and the Russians couldn't justify re-opening production line for such small orders. And they are already developing naval flanker and a model of which is on the wuhan training platform. Without Russian help, it'd just take them longer. The Ukrainians have certainly never stopped assisting China's naval air programs.

Let them think of something themselves, I'd go even further and say lets boycot china period. With everything but above all, dont let em look at your military equipment.

But that's not what this thread is about, so my apologies for the offtopic.

Why would they build a mockup for training which they cannot land aircraft on? Are they gonna train launch procedures or something? Seems a little much just for that.. I dont get it, please explain why they build such a big and axpensive building to put a mock up flanker on it?
You clearly have no clue what you are talking about and have spent too much time reading strategypage.

They have a similar training center on land for nuclear submarine. The bridge should be the same as the ones in future carriers allowing for testing the electronics/radar on the island + training crews on using them. The floors below the roofs will be a replica of the rooms in the real carrier, allowing training the crews for real operation.