Syria get new MiG-31Es and MiG-35s

[Ibizan Hound]

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/104125/syria-getting-mig_31es,-mig_29s:-dia-chief.html

Syria get new aircraft but they are still going to need competent training with the weapons. Most of their current aircraft are of poor value. Syria had one MiG-21 or 25 that simply fell out of the sky near Israel. That's not going to help them.

[IPA35]

It does not say anything about MiG-35...

But this would be a good thing for Syria, would balance the regional power a bit...

[ROCK45]

We heard this before. I wouldn't count on this happening this article mentions Yak-130s and Mig-29M's M2 so it's basically fluff.

Besides Syria's AF is a mess a few Mig-31s if even delivered would do nothing but become added targets. Syria falls into the same class of Iran in many ways just too many years of no new aircraft to be effective.

[Feanor]

Actually I would rate Iraq a bit higher. They have some indigenous aviation industry, which means we can expect a lot of their airforce to at least be flyable.

[IPA35]

You mean Iran?

How about there F-5 copy?

Some questions...

Is there a production line for the MiG-31E?
Is there a proper production line for advanced MiG-29's?
I know they built planes for Algeria but the RuAF only buys MiG-29K's when they should actually buy MiG-35...
Isn't the SU-30/35 a better plane for the job?

[ROCK45]

Hi Feanor
I would rate Iran's a little better then Syria as far repair and service I meant pure aircraft wise, both country's fleets are old and out dated. Both lack effective modern training and the maintenance levels for both is questionable.

Showing a few F-5 want-to-be paste on types is not the same as a operational combat ready fighter. I feel the same way about Iran's F-14s flying them nice and in straight lines for some news clip is long way from pulling Gs and going in and out of afterburners.

I'm not a Mig-31 fan in general for hunting down packs of B-52 bombers yes there effective and for recon flights. The long range missiles never seem to be deployed and the Mig-31s magical radar doesn't impress me, it's to old of a design to be effective. If it was that good some form of it would be in Russia's best Flankers.

There very fast and can fly straight very nicely but always thought Russia should have retired them years ago. I know there are Mig-31 fans out there that won't agree with me. For me at least it's a cold war interceptor designed to fight waves of B-52's, just can't see if be effective against modern fighters nor modern cruise missiles.

[Ibizan Hound]

You mean Iran? Iran's airforce is better than Syria's as far as maintenance. Iran has too few fighters to be a serious threat. Iran has under 150 fighter which includes F-14s and MiG-29s. They can put up a good fight but no dominance would be expected from them. If anything Iran should operate these aircrafts. When was Syria's last dogfighting exercise???? Syria has GOOD aircraft but they do not practice maintenance as they should. Syria has atleast 14 SU-27s, over 50 MiG-29s and a few MiG-31s already.

Isn't the SU-30/35 a better plane for the job? Many of the aircraft already out can match the newest nonstealth fighters. Now many aircraft are simply bigger and more expensive. For instance, Russias Su-30s beat the US F-15s in a dogfight. But so what?? So have the Europeans defeated F-15s in dogfight with MiG-29s with similiarly clean win scores.

For many purchasers it's a matter of what's more effecient cost-wise and the familiarity of the aircraft. The MiG-31s can get the job done better than many of these newer aircrafts and is much more affordable. 10-15 MiG-31s for the price of 1 MiG-35 when the MiG-31 works just perfect.

The MiG-31 is also better for quick, surprise attacks in hard to get areas. In Desert Storm the MiG-25 zoomed past like 6 aircraft to pick off an F/A-18 Hornet. It was a poor aircraft ONLY because the Foxbat's radar range was shorter than all other aircraft, being detected before it could even see the enemy itself. The MiG-31 has this same strength without this radar range handicap.

[ROCK45]

Ibizan Hound
Syria has atleast 14 SU-27s, over 50 MiG-29s and a few MiG-31s already.

No Flankers
No Mig-31s


The MiG-31 is also better for quick, surprise attacks in hard to get areas.
The Mig-31 doesn't surprise anybody or anything huge RCS and huge heat source.

In Desert Storm the MiG-25 zoomed past like 6 aircraft to pick off an F/A-18 Hornet.
Not really the way it happen more of a lucky shot fired blindly into a large group of aircraft. Others can explain it better changes to were made to correct this type of breakdown to how AWACS operate.

When was Syria's last dogfighting exercise
Iran's no better really I think the quote of 150 fighters is way to high.
F-5 older then time itself (great aircraft)
Mig-29 a squadron or so mostly A models, a few ex-Iraqi's
J-7 - were talking fishbed here
I think a few ex Iraqi F-1?
Handful of Su-25 (good platform but few in number)
Su-24 - there best but tactical striker
F-14s - Flying for some stupid parade in straight lines isn't air to air combat pulling G and using the afterburners is much different.

Iran's AF is most late 70s and at best early to mid 80s, nothing more. Iran hasn't bought any replacement aircraft in years period. Paste on F-5's and mounting early model Hawk missiles onto aircraft doesn't cut in real air to air combat.

Iran has the most overrated air force in the Gulf region.

[anan]

How well would the F/A 50 light attack aircraft the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force) is buying stack up against the Mig 31s and the rest of the Syrian air force?

[Viktor]

How well would the F/A 50 light attack aircraft the IqAF (Iraqi Air Force) is buying stack up against the Mig 31s and the rest of the Syrian air force?

It could not even think to stand up to MIG-31 ...

[Viktor]

The Mig-31 doesn't surprise anybody or anything huge RCS and huge heat source

Thoes the fact that it can supercruise mutch faster than the F-22 and at the same time cover more distance suprise your?

It has hudge RCS and IC .. but at the same time able to speed up to Mach 3+ at 25km atitude ... try dealing with that?

Iran's no better really I think the quote of 150 fighters is way to high.
F-5 older then time itself (great aircraft)
Mig-29 a squadron or so mostly A models, a few ex-Iraqi's
J-7 - were talking fishbed here
I think a few ex Iraqi F-1?
Handful of Su-25 (good platform but few in number)
Su-24 - there best but tactical striker
F-14s - Flying for some stupid parade in straight lines isn't air to air combat pulling G and using the afterburners is much different.


Iranian airforce is older than time itself but I remember reading about some kind of modernizations (or was it just repair) ... anybody know something more about it?


I'm not a Mig-31 fan

I am.

The long range missiles never seem to be deployed and the Mig-31s magical radar doesn't impress me

210km+ R-33S with SARH guidance is deployed dont you worry ...
New radar specs are about to be something of a wonder but what have you heard to make you not impressed?

it's to old of a design to be effective

No its not. Its just designed for special mission in purpose and now is being added multirole capability. (now they even carry Kh-41 :D )

There very fast and can fly straight very nicely but always thought Russia should have retired them years ago

Well no retirement will happen until PAK-FA enters in numbers as its only plane that can replace that monster.

At supersonic speeds achiving 5g is excellent .... besides during one crash landing by MIG-25 flown by rookie pilot MIG-25 acchived 11.5+g before breakup ... :D

For me at least it's a cold war interceptor designed to fight waves of B-52's, just can't see if be effective against modern fighters nor modern cruise missiles.

It can .. with new radar, R-37 active guidance/Kh-31A/P/P2/Kh-31/ECM/ECCM/R-33S etc ... it is once more freacking Mach 3 monster in the sky witch ALWAYS flys 5 miles above you ....

[Ibizan Hound]

Thoes the fact that it can supercruise mutch faster than the F-22 and at the same time cover more distance suprise your?

It has hudge RCS and IC .. but at the same time able to speed up to Mach 3+ at 25km atitude ... try dealing with that?



Iranian airforce is older than time itself but I remember reading about some kind of modernizations (or was it just repair) ... anybody know something more about it?Iran have upgraded their MiG-29s up to SMT standars and a few are said by Iranians to be MiG-35s now. Iran, I know, have upgraded their Su-24 Fencers. Iran has only around 150 known fighter aircraft but are said to be producing like 60 MiG-29 Fulcrums and may have some indigenous aircraft as well.
Iran is also getting ne helicopters but they are low in number when it comes to fighters. However they are said to have this number
30 Azaraksh
30 saegehs
55 Tomcats
42 MiG 29s
6(?) MiG-31s this was according to IAF flying and detecting unknown radar signatures from Iran which some have said were MiG-31s.:nutkick

Iran also have 5-10 MiG-25 Foxbats but they are in storage not service.

[ROCK45]

Hi Viktor
I knew I would bump into a few Mig-31 fans with my statements. That's what makes this forum interesting.

Ibizan Hound
Iran have upgraded their MiG-29s up to SMT standars and a few are said by Iranians to be MiG-35s now.
That's a big claim since the Mig-35 isn't even in production and about the SMT very very few of the worlds Fulcrums have been upgrade to such levels. Installing a re-fueling probe doesn't make an SMT. Google SMT Fulcrums go through web sites then go back to your sources and tell us how this could be possible. Can you provide a link to such claim?

6(?) MiG-31s this was according to IAF flying and detecting unknown radar signatures from Iran which some have said were MiG-31s
Then it must be true right????

30 Azaraksh - Besides some pro Iranian web site does anybody really know anything about this so-called type?
30 saegehs - Besides some pro Iranian web site does anybody really know anything about this so-called type?
55 Tomcats - I'm a Tomcat fan but come on
42 MiG 29s - This number seems high to me can you provide a non pro-Iranian site to support this number?

Thanks

[Feanor]

So first thing is first. I have never in all my internet wanderings ran across a reliable source that stated that anyone outside of Russia and Kazakhstan operates the MiG-31. I've also never seen any export contracts. Only rumors. Please, if anyone here wishes to claim otherwise provide some support for those claims. And I mean evidence. :)

Rock45 just to give you a heads up, Iran does produce fighters. Small, and not very effective fighters, but fighters none the less. Generally they're either the equivalent of an F-5 (usually copied from it) or the two completely domestic types are similar to a jet-trainer in terms of size and I'd wager to guess in terms of capability also. That's a pretty big step forward, compared to Syria. Those fighters can at least be serviced and flyable, and used in local conflicts.

[ROCK45]

Hi Feanor
I'm aware of Iran's claim moving on.

[Haavarla]

Feanor;171550]So first thing is first. I have never in all my internet wanderings ran across a reliable source that stated that anyone outside of Russia and Kazakhstan operates the MiG-31. I've also never seen any export contracts. Only rumors. Please, if anyone here wishes to claim otherwise provide some support for those claims. And I mean evidence. :)



Hi Feanor.
Think i read some place that the Mig-31 never was intended to make sale/export.. Beside Kazakhstan that is.

Most certain it was stated under the cold war era.

So Ukrain never received any Russian Mig-31, i mean station there under the cold war?


So perhaps Russia are willing to export a few Mig-31 these days?

[Feanor]

There is a MiG-31E, from what I understand aimed mainly at the Chinese and Indian markets. However no contracts ever emerged to my knowledge. Iirc Kazakhstan inherited theirs from the Soviet days.

[Viktor]

Hi Viktor
I knew I would bump into a few Mig-31 fans with my statements.

And I knew you know I will come ... LOL :D


That's what makes this forum interesting.

Thats whats forum is about.

[Ibizan Hound]

Hi Viktor
That's a big claim since the Mig-35 isn't even in production and about the SMT very very few of the worlds Fulcrums have been upgrade to such levels. That didn't stop Iran from acquiring these.

[ROCK45]

Ibizan Hound
That didn't stop Iran from acquiring these.
One isn't a real fighter nor is it produced the other only a few SMT's have been ever made and sold. You also said Iran has 42 Mig-29sYou made the claim back it up if you can.

Also while your at it don't forget Iran's Mig-31s
Another member asked for for evidence as well
Feanor
Only rumors. Please, if anyone here wishes to claim otherwise provide some support for those claims. And I mean evidence.

Hi Ibizan Hound if I said the USAF had 300 F-22s I would asked to support that claim. Yemen has some and very little is known about them, Algeria return 15 or so of them, Maybe Feanor might know but nobody really knows if the rest of Algeria's order was even made? I can't seem to lock that down. Aircraft #048 in Peru's AF might be one, (that's not confirmed but this aircraft spotter assures me it is).

Nothing is wrong with taking pride in ones country & Air Force but when you don't buy replacement or new aircraft in 10 or 15 years or even more, your not going to have them. You can't get around that.

This site says between 24 to 40 Fulcrum but don't know if this is good source. I question sources that say between this number and that number with such a wide difference between the two numbers, most would. Off the top of my head I remember 16/19 with a small handful of ex-Iraqi's. 40 would be two squadron I don't remember anybody covering Iran's AF and stating (2) Fulcrums squadron. I didn't know India help with Iran's Fulcrums maybe some India poster can shed some light on that.
http://uskowioniran.blogspot.com/2008/05/iriaf-mig-29-fulcrum-in-action.html


This web site shows Iran a little differently
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce-equipment.htm

Four years old
Iran's Air Forces: Struggling to Maintain Readiness
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2422

[Feanor]

That didn't stop Iran from acquiring these.

Iran operates neither the SMT nor the MiG-35 to my knowledge. However there is a possibility that the Fulcrums they have were upgraded, and I missed it. They did recently upgrade their Su-24MK. Please do provide a reliable source for your claim.

[SkolZkiy]

MiG-31 in IRan ?? in Syria?? You joke?? May be MiG-25 =) this is possible =)
China has several MiG-31 - very very old =) only RU and Kz have them

[Ibizan Hound]

Ibizan Hound

One isn't a real fighter nor is it produced the other only a few SMT's have been ever made and sold.
The MiG-35 IS a real fighter and Iran is said to have either upgraded to this or purchased a few of these. Since you don't know, then you just don't know. But you can't argue on basis of YOUR ignorance of the fact. Iran also have upgraded their MiG-29s to SMTs. You may feel intimidated by it or whatever but they have done it. Right now they may be getting atleast 50 more.

[ROCK45]

Ibizan Hound
The MiG-35 IS a real fighter and Iran is said to have either upgraded to this or purchased a few of these.

But you can't argue on basis of YOUR ignorance of the fact.

Iran also have upgraded their MiG-29s to SMTs.

You may feel intimidated by it
Never by Iran's armed forces that's for sure

In this forum you need to back up your statements I'll let the mods handle this.

[Feanor]

The MiG-35 IS a real fighter and Iran is said to have either upgraded to this or purchased a few of these. Since you don't know, then you just don't know. But you can't argue on basis of YOUR ignorance of the fact. Iran also have upgraded their MiG-29s to SMTs. You may feel intimidated by it or whatever but they have done it. Right now they may be getting atleast 50 more.

Ibizan Hound the MiG-35 has airframe differences. You cannot upgrade existing MiG-29 airframes to the MiG-35 level as far as I know. No MiG-35's have been produced serially. If you wish to claim otherwise you need to provide a source. You also specifically mention that the Iranian Fulcrums are upgraded to the SMT standard. Once again a source is necessary to back up this claim.

[Ibizan Hound]

Ibizan Hound the MiG-35 has airframe differences. You cannot upgrade existing MiG-29 airframes to the MiG-35 level as far as I know.That's the same thing I thought. They even look different. Maybe, they ment purchases.
No MiG-35's have been produced serially.Based ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE. You can't make these bogus assertions. I've seen a few fly. Iran ands China both signed a pact with Russia to keep weapons transfers private and nonpublicized. There's a host of Westerners and Israelis who argue that Iran doesn't even have Sunburns or S-300s though Iranians know better. So I say leave it at what they what they want to know. If they are interested enough they'll do the research like other people usually do.
People like you also believe the Russian claim that they haven't sold Syria Pantsyrs. We know Syria has Pantsyrs but are we to provide argue with you that they do? Sam here.

[Feanor]

Iran does not have either Sunburns or S-300 systems. Unless you have evidence otherwise, that is the situation as it stands.

You say you have seen the MiG-35 fly. Do you mean in person? Or on the internet?

As for the Pantsyrs, that is a confirmed sale. 50 units have been sold to Syria, out of which 10 have theoretically transfered to Iran.

Once again, provide evidence for your claims. Otherwise your claims are worthless.

[Viktor]

The MiG-35 IS a real fighter and Iran is said to have either upgraded to this or purchased a few of these. Since you don't know, then you just don't know. But you can't argue on basis of YOUR ignorance of the fact. Iran also have upgraded their MiG-29s to SMTs. You may feel intimidated by it or whatever but they have done it. Right now they may be getting atleast 50 more.

No MIG-35 has being made till today ...
No MIG-31 in Iran
No S-300 in Iran
No Pancir-S1 in Iran
No MIG-29SMT in Iran
no nothing ...

Old airforce ... asymetrical response navy oriented (I would be funny to see its clashes with USN - althrow I belive it is posible for them to acquire Sunburn or even Club-N in its modernization or perhaps over China we cant tell for sure that it has or ahs not it)

Obsolite land force that still can punch a nice blow if used properly. ...
Nice helicopter force ....

and its best thousands of missiles armed with explosives but at the same time with nuclear or biological agens .... so if that crazy Arhameđad goes nuc all he needs to do is press that red button couple of thousand times and all will be gone ... in 1000km radius ....

Another thing is enought trained people to use ATGM/MANPADS/AK/RPG/IED/PKM witch is good enough to criple any modern force in partisan tactics ....

So thats it ...

[Feanor]

Viktor out of the 50 Pantsyrs sold to Syria, allegedly 10 were transferred to Iran. We can't outrule some numbers of them being there. I suspect that if they do have any, they will be reverse engineered if possible.

[Viktor]

Viktor out of the 50 Pantsyrs sold to Syria, allegedly 10 were transferred to Iran. We can't outrule some numbers of them being there. I suspect that if they do have any, they will be reverse engineered if possible.

Well Im aware of such deal but asa UAE financed Pancir-S1 project I guess they will be the first to recive Pancirs witch btw came ot production line at the end of 2008 and start of 2009 ... so I dont belive even Syria still has them ...

Secont it takes time to train people and time for those people to train Iranians so I guess even when they got them they wont be opreational for some time.

Posibility of Iranians copy-pasting Pancir-S1 is 0%.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The MiG-35 IS a real fighter and Iran is said to have either upgraded to this or purchased a few of these. Since you don't know, then you just don't know. But you can't argue on basis of YOUR ignorance of the fact. Iran also have upgraded their MiG-29s to SMTs. You may feel intimidated by it or whatever but they have done it. Right now they may be getting atleast 50 more.

The MiG-35 is a DEVELOPMENTAL program designed for the Indian MRCA competition and is NOT in production. Neither is the MiG-29M AFAIK. There are NO MiG-35's flying around today, only a single demonstrator that is not combat capable.

I have never heard or read anything about Iranian MiG-29's being upgraded to SMT standard. Remember SMT is a specific upgrade program (like MLU for the Viper) and just because Iranian MiG-29's have undergone a modernization program doesn't mean they have SMT's.

As for the MiG-31.

Guys the MiG-31 is a strategic defense platform. It is intended as a counter to strateghic aircraft, and in secondary counter ISR (anti AWACS) and Recce roles. It is excellent at this, and arguably the worlds best defense against strategic air power.

HOWEVER it is NOT an air superiority fighter and it was never intended to be. The Flanker family is far more capable in this role, it is much more flexible and much more able to deal with tac air assets at virtually any regime. This is why everyone is buying flankers and not foxhounds. Unless you want to shoot down large aircraft at long range, Flanker is the superior platform. The Foxhound is totally optimized as a counter to the strategic aircraft. Its raw performance, sensors, weapons and aerodynamics are superbly optimized for taking out strategic aircraft at long range, and it is a superb counter for US strategic air power (well conventional assets anyway), but it is not a capable air superiority fighter, which is why no one uses them in this role. Thinking they are is pretty much fanboy fantasy.

As for the Syrians, I cant see any reason why they have the requirement for such a platform, none of their neighbors have strategic air assets, they would be much better buying Su-30's. There is probably a Foxhound market in China and India but not the middle east. I think this article is bogus.

[Viktor]

As for the MiG-31.
Guys the MiG-31 is a strategic defense platform. It is intended as a counter to strateghic aircraft, and in secondary counter ISR (anti AWACS) and Recce roles. It is excellent at this, and arguably the worlds best defense against strategic air power.


Besides strategics assets you mentioned MIG-31 is also optimizet for hunting down fast low-flying cruise missiles.

New MIG-31 now have multirole capability .. meaning if right circumstances you could live to see MIG-31 attack on enemy ships with Kh-41 :D
They also carry R-77/KH-31 and all kinds of other lovely Russian missiles ...
You can now perform SEAD missions with it ... so it gained many new optiones it was not designed for initialy ...

Of course Syria would NOT to my knowledge got any of that nice capabilities .. MIG-31E mentioned for Syria is basicly MIG-31B with major dowgraded capabilities.



As for the Syrians, I cant see any reason why they have the requirement for such a platform, none of their neighbors have strategic air assets, they would be much better buying Su-30's. There is probably a Foxhound market in China and India but not the middle east. I think this article is bogus.

Well why not ... mobile EW platform idealy suited for shooting down anything that flys low no matter how fast ... althrow If I was president of Syria would not consider them until S-400/MIG-31BM combo was offered ... :D

[A.Mookerjee]

In my opinion, the nations of the Middle East, should be made into a demilitarized zone, because, the region being so similar in cultural values, there is no need for the nation of the Middle East to harbor suspicions about her neighbor. The reason for the insecurity is not the Middle East nations, but the potential military capabilities of these nations. During the 'Cold War', the Cold War extended to the Middle East as a natural consequence. All the Middle East wars fought, could have been avoided by the former Soviet Union, and the USA, if they had so deemed. Now, I hope that the economic rivalry between Russia and the USA, does not spill over to the Middle East. In fact, the invasion of Afghanistan, by the Soviet Union, is the cause of the unrest in Afghanistan(which is not a part of the Middle East).Peace in the Middle East, is the precursor to peace for the whole Muslim community all over the world. Perhaps, the Shia-Sunni divide can be seen in the West Bank and Gaza, where the people are not feeling hopeless being at the mercy of Israel, but at the irreconcilable differences between the Shia-Sunni divide. The Shia's and the Sunni's should be reconciled, as they believe in a common God, and also in their Prophet.