Germany to acquire F-35 for the Luftwaffe

[Falstaff]

This may be a bit surprising for most of us, but Germany's defence secretary Jung in a parliamentary debate (broadcasted by TV) just stated that Germany will buy F-35s as a replacement for the remaining Tornado fleet in the past-2015 timeframe. He said that chancellor Merkel talked about the matter with president Obama during their meeting last week. And the interesting thing is, as Germany would never accept a plane they can't modify to their requirements, the delivered F-35s will not be completely outfitted but be ready to be stuffed with German and European stuff, e.g. a European AESA etc. The German F-35 is to be named the "Eurolightning" and will have a sophisticated set of non-lethal or less than lethal weapons designed to provide a whole new level of peacekeeping.

Apart from the fact that this was rumoured for quite a long time, this makes sense to me. At least the F-35 will be able to fulfill the Tornado ECR-role and add a few things. And a completely indigenous Tornado replacement would take some time...

[Onkel]

Yes, but sadly they will aquire just 50 Eurolightnings to replace 85 remaining Tornados. Maybe they want to replace the others with drones?

[winnyfield]

... The German F-35 is to be named the "Eurolightning" and will have a sophisticated set of non-lethal or less than lethal weapons designed to provide a whole new level of peacekeeping.
...

:p: Modern Germany

First a peacekeeping version of a Leopard 2 MBT now a fighter bomber.

[Feanor]

Do you have a link by any chance?

[swerve]

:onfloorl: Nice one.

[Onkel]

From Germanys Air Force Site:


By 2015, therefore, a new electronic warfare aircraft is scheduled to make its appearance – one based on the F 35 airframe, with strong self-defense capabilities as well as electronic attack potential. The so called "Eurolightning" is based on the "Joint Strike Fighter" F 35 and has 90% commonality with its counterpart, just as its predecessor the ECR-Tornado was based on the robust Tornado IDS fighter bomber. At present, the Eurolightning is slated to be the only dedicated electronic warfare aircraft in the Luftwaffe´s future force – and since the USA is the only western country with such aircraft by now, it would become the sole source of tactical jamming support for NATO air forces as a whole.

The F-35 Lightning II is a major multinational program which is intended to produce an “affordably stealthy” multi-role strike fighter that will have three variants: the F-35A conventional version for the US Air Force et. al.; the F-35B Short Take-Off, Vertical Landing for the US Marines, British Royal Navy, et. al.; and the F-35C conventional carrier-launched version for the US Navy.

The Eurolightning will use the F-35A conventional version as its base, and add a new mission system developed by EADS, including a revolutionary non lethal weapon system for peacekeeping operations.

http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLNzKId_dxB8lB2F7O-pFw0aCUVH1vfV-P_NxU_QD9gtyIckdHRUUAl64xJQ!!/delta/base64xml/L0lJWWtna3p1NkNTWUpDZ3BSQ2dwUkNncFJBISEvWUNZTUFBQU FFTUFBQUNDRUFBQU1NR0lBQUtLS0tLS0tPT0tNQkpGSkZCSk5E TkRCTkxITEhCTEEvNElVR1JZUWpyRTVST1FydjFqQ3MySENOeV ZzT1ViakhZYzQzQklBIS82XzIwX0dMTy83XzIwXzFBRzYvMS9z aW1wbGUvc3BmX0FjdGlvbk5hbWUvc3BmX0FjdGlvbkxpc3Rlbm VyL3NwZl9zdHJ1dHNBY3Rpb24vJTB0cmlnZ2VyU2VhcmNoLmRv #7_20_1AG6

Sounds a little bit expensive. What is more, I´d prefere a solution based on the Typhoon. There´s no need for the expensive F 35.

[Vivendi]

:onfloorl: Nice one.
I would like to add that a Norwegian Newspaper reported this morning that Norway will not buy F-35 after all.

I strongly suspect we will be getting the German Tornadoes. It all fits together now...


Edit: I cannot offer a link since I cannot find it on the electronic version of the newspaper, seems it is only in today's printed version...
V

[Waylander]

It really took me by surprise when I read that in the newspaper this morning. But in the end it is just a logical step forward to a capable Tornado replacement.

Good decision by our government!

[Aussie Digger]

From Germanys Air Force Site:

Sounds a little bit expensive. What is more, I´d prefere a solution based on the Typhoon. There´s no need for the expensive F 35.

Actually, most people expect that the Typhoon will cost more to acquire than the F-35A...

Either way, the new "mission system" will have to be designed and integrated onto the platform of choice, so what is likely to be cheaper then?

Just as I've argued over in the "Spanish Air Force" thread, adding a few more Typhoons, to an already large Typhoon based inventory, adds little overall capability enhancement.

Adding a VLO fighter aircraft TO that already capable fighter force, adds significantly GREATER capability, IMHO. Not that I think it will happen...

[Falstaff]

Do you have a link by any chance?

Some details have leaked to the media after all...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany_buys_eurolightning.html (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fool_Day)

[Grand Danois]

Snigger !

[nikola_281]

Did anybody bother to check the date?

[kato]

Almost as good as the "Violet Bumper Sticker" (for female drivers) that 28 (!) German radio stations were jointly doing today.

[longbow]

:D:D nice one:onfloorl:

[swerve]

Did anybody bother to check the date?
Of course. What do you think my - and some other - replies meant?

I hope Falstaff doesn't mind, but I took the liberty of re-posting his missive elsewhere. I credited him, of course. One person did jump on it as justifying his belief that all the Eurofighter partners are desperate to get out of buying any more & want F-35 instead. :onfloorl:

[Vivendi]

Related news from the Vatican:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ae95ec0e0-4020-48b8-bdd8-3328397be010


NATO and the Holy See will now develop a PfP Individual Partnership Programme detailing their cooperation. This will concentrate on developing interoperability between the Swiss Guard and NATO forces. It is not clear whether this will require replacement of the Swiss Guard's pikes. The Vatican has also offered to host a centre of excellence for chaplaining as well as an exercise next year dubbed Cooperative Catholic in which chaplains from NATO countries will practice their skills in built up areas.


And just in case anybody are still in doubt with regards to my previous post in this excellent thread:

http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aftenposten.no%2Fnyheter%2Firik s%2Farticle3009040.ece&sl=no&tl=en

;)

V

[Falstaff]

I hope Falstaff doesn't mind, but I took the liberty of re-posting his missive elsewhere. I credited him, of course. One person did jump on it as justifying his belief that all the Eurofighter partners are desperate to get out of buying any more & want F-35 instead. :onfloorl:

No, i don't mind. On the contrary, I always wanted to start an internet myth :D

Thanks to y'all for taking part in this little april joke, I'm a littlebit disappointed though that nobody actually fell for it... due to the quality of this forum's members I guess.

[karan583]

This may be a bit surprising for most of us, but Germany's defence secretary Jung in a parliamentary debate (broadcasted by TV) just stated that Germany will buy F-35s as a replacement for the remaining Tornado fleet in the past-2015 timeframe.

Perhaps Bill Sweetman's news about the sudden up-turn in the F-35 program reached Germany causing this surprising decision. :)

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9154cf03-3ecb-4a6a-99e4-f549be89494b&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending

[Feanor]

No, i don't mind. On the contrary, I always wanted to start an internet myth :D

Thanks to y'all for taking part in this little april joke, I'm a littlebit disappointed though that nobody actually fell for it... due to the quality of this forum's members I guess.

I fell for it. :(

[Vivendi]

I fell for it. :(
I would probably have believed it, if Falstaff did not write about Germany replacing a lot of the F-35 stuff with their own, including the AESA radar..... Now that sounds rather unbelievable....

Also, on second thought, given the current commitment to the Eurofighter in combination with a financial crisis, the whole announcement was rather fishy, OTOH Falstaff is normally a very reliable person, so perhaps he could have fooled me if he had skipped the replacement part. :)

I would not be too surprised if Germany change their mind and purhcase a few F-35, perhaps in the post-2020 time frame. Once F-35 is flying I think it will be hard to claim a first-rate air-force without having some 5. gen a/c in the inventory.

V

[Onkel]

I beg this won´t happen. If Germany will feel the need to have a stealthier Aircraft, it will shurely search for an european partner to build common european platform. Perhaps France or Sweden, perhaps some junior partners. The last non-european Airframe bought by Germany was the F 4 back in 1974 even this plane should just close the gap, till the european Fighter was available. All right, they bought some P 3 from the nederlands and pimped it with EADS-Antennas - but it was very cheap to get. And shure, the EUROHAWK bases on global hawk, perhaps they allso will buy some reapers, but these are small numbers, i guess again to close some gaps untill they can build their own big UAVs-

[swerve]

...
I would not be too surprised if Germany change their mind and purhcase a few F-35, perhaps in the post-2020 time frame. Once F-35 is flying I think it will be hard to claim a first-rate air-force without having some 5. gen a/c in the inventory.

V
I think the plan is to buy stealthy UCAVs for the "first day of war, kick the door in" role. There are major development programmes underway.

[Onkel]

I think the plan is to buy stealthy UCAVs for the "first day of war, kick the door in" role. There are major development programmes underway.

Yes, there are:

"The DLR-project UCAV-2010 aims at providing numerical and experimental procedures for the development and assessment of technologies for Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles (abbr. UCAV). Key tasks of the project are the identification of relevant technologies as well as the provision of numerical and experimental procedures for the development of UCAV’s. With the technologies and procedures provided, one is enabled to:

to evaluate whether a given UCAV-configuration satisfies the requirements of a mission
to design UCAV-configurations on the basis of mission constraints
to enhance and improve UCAV-relevant technologies
to devise enhanced methods for the UCAV-design and the application of UCAV-specific technologies
Specifications and forecasts from Germany’s Federal Ministry of Defence (BMVg), from Germany’s Federal Office of Defence Technology and Procurement (BWB) and from the industry for defence technology are the basis for the project. Some of the major prognoses and specifications are:

possible air force demand for UCAV’s from 2020
estimated development time: 8-10 years
intended use: airborne and onshore combat of mobile targets
maximum survivability through:
high manoeuvrability (higher load factors compared to manned aircrafts)
passive counteractive measures (minimal signatures for radar / infrared / acoustics)
Prototypes resulting either from experiments or from the pre-design phase and the detailed design phase may be used to demonstrate the use of UCAV-relevant technologies. Thus, one objective of the project is to develop an integrated, multi-disciplinary prototype of an unmanned combat air vehicle that contains various optimised technologies. This prototype will be tested and evaluated through a virtual flight.

Overall, the objectives aim to devise enhanced technologies for the development of unmanned combat air vehicles, "best practice" methods for the pre-design phase and the detailed design phase as well as the provision of software for multi-disciplinary computation of high-order methods."
http://www.dlr.de/sc/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5141/8654_read-11626/

[Onkel]

German UCAV
Like BAE, the German part of EADS Military Aircraft Systems developed
a flying proof-of-concept small UCAV in secret and without collaboration. When EADS finally revealed the Barracuda, the company said it proved that it is “able to independently develop and test a demonstrator for future agile, autonomous and network-capable unmanned mission systems.”

But four months after the sole Barracuda first flew in Spain, it crashed in September 2006, the result of a software failure. Meanwhile, EADS officials sought partners and said the Barracuda project was aimed at producing a reconnaissance vehicle rather than one dedicated to combat, though the air vehicle had obvious potential for both missions. No partners were forthcoming.

So in 2007, EADS developed and showed its concept of a modular “Advanced UAV,” obviously less stealthy than the Barracuda, with different configurations for loitering, high-altitude surveillance and low-altitude flight over enemy territory. The German government sought to involve France and Spain in this project, since all three countries had stated requirements for a medium-altitude long endurance (MALE) UAV for reconnaissance.

Last December, EADS announced that the three countries had agreed to fund a
15-month risk reduction study, led by Germany. Each country is providing ?21 billion ($32.3 billion). An EADS spokesman told AIN that the company’s military air business units in all three countries were contributing to the study. Also involved, and studying a radar sensor, are the EADS Defence Electronics business unit, plus Thales of France and Indra of Spain.

However, the Barracuda is not dead. Last December, EADS also revealed that it is leading a research-and-technology program funded by the German defense ministry for an “agile UAV within network-centric environments [NCE].” Finland had agreed to participate and other European nations, “such as Switzerland,” were also welcome to join.

The Agile UAV-NCE project will last until 2013, will cost ?43 billion ($66.2 billion), and will include flight trials of reconnaissance and sensor-to-shooter missions. An EADS spokesman told AIN that this UAV “would look like the Barracuda.”
http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-news-page/article/amid-calls-for-collaboration-ucav-efforts-split-in-three/

[kato]

And shure, the EUROHAWK bases on global hawk, perhaps they allso will buy some reapers, but these are small numbers, i guess again to close some gaps untill they can build their own big UAVs-
Eurohawk is not meant to be a stopgap, but a solution. Although it will likely be supplemented by a smaller system in the future to replace the middle tier still provided by Tornado Recce.

Reapers won't be bought, the financial department of the Bundeswehr seems pretty much settled on IAI Heron-TP (Eitan), which is slightly larger than the Predator/Reaper.

Any future UCAV will - under current considerations - be bought as a straight replacement of the Tornado ECR, and will very likely focus on an initial-entry and SEAD/DEAD role.

[Vivendi]

I think the plan is to buy stealthy UCAVs for the "first day of war, kick the door in" role. There are major development programmes underway.

To me it seems that quite a lot of development is needed before UCAVs are ready, and this again implies that it will take a long time to get an operational system, but I may be wrong.

If it takes a very long time, there may still be a need to go for F-35s for Germany. Alternatively, Germany may have to accept they lack important capabilities in an increasingly hostile environment, until the UCAV technology matures.

These are my (non-expert) thoughts, anyway :)

V

[Onkel]

Oh, Germany knew ten or fifteen Years ago about it´s lack of Stealth-technology. I don´t know the reasons, but since then nobody seemed to bother. Apart from Barracuda most design were not made for stealthiness. Taurus and all those small UAVs are cost-optiized, not stealthoptimized. Only our navy seems to care for stealth

[swerve]

The predecessors to EADS Deutschland were working on RCS reduction in the 1980s. Had a fighter project going for a while, using F-117 style facets, before anyone outside the USA knew about the F-117. The principles are, of course, not at all secret.

I would think that the limiting factor is money, not skills.

[oldsoak]

Lampyridae

- the Europeans have had quite some experience in stealth - but as swerve points out - money ( and the fact there was no pan-european approach ) limited its application.

[Parmenion]

UCAV
The european stealhty strike future will be based on this:
http://www.defesanet.com.br/rv/le_bourget_05/imagens/dassault/17_nEUROn.jpg
Dassault nEUROn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn)

Claims that the europeans are deep in the dark regarding stealth technology are just lame. Ok the US have a lead but thats about all.

[justone]

The european stealhty strike future will be based on this:
http://www.defesanet.com.br/rv/le_bourget_05/imagens/dassault/17_nEUROn.jpg
Dassault nEUROn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn)

Claims that the europeans are deep in the dark regarding stealth technology are just lame. Ok the US have a lead but thats about all.

The europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology The Germanys signed agreement in order to get the F-35 best believe that

[swerve]

The europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology The Germanys signed agreement in order to get the F-35 best believe that
Justone, check the date of the first post in this thread, & read the responses. It was a joke. There is no agreement. Germany is not buying F-35.

As for "europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology " - look up Replica, Taranis, Neuron, & Lampyridae. The last was a 1980s project, so should not be taken as representative of the current level of European stealth technology, of course.

[Falstaff]

Finally sombody fell for it. Yes!

[Parmenion]

The nEUROn is an alive and kicking project with all partners commited to the cause.

The europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology
:hul...

[METEORSWARM]

Drones

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


minute 0.24


demostration tecnology.



YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[justone]

Justone, check the date of the first post in this thread, & read the responses. It was a joke. There is no agreement. Germany is not buying F-35.

As for "europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology " - look up Replica, Taranis, Neuron, & Lampyridae. The last was a 1980s project, so should not be taken as representative of the current level of European stealth technology, of course.

i read the first tread all I'm saying is that if it was going to happen some agreement would be signed i should have said that at first

[PeterCrisp]

The only reason Europe is behind on Stealth of financial not about the ability to produce aircraft. Stealth is extremely expensive and Europe has opted to not have it as a main feature but I'm fairly sure they could have made the Eurofighter stealthy if they had plumped up the extra funds for R&D.

Saying Europe doesn't have the ability is rather insulting as we also have a fair few clever people who could work out how stealth works. Whether or not we have the manufacturing capability to build them is another matter and it's that that would be the main stumbling block I feel as it's not like WW2 where you can just tell a car factory to swap to building Spitfires or Mustangs as I'm sure stealth tech uses a fair few unique fabrication techniques that would be extremely expensive to build up from the point we are now.

[swerve]

Peter,

stealthy aircraft are being constructed in Europe as we type. They're not manned, but they're stealthy. Numerous stealthy features have been incorporated into Rafale, Typhoon & Gripen. The basic shapes are not stealthy, but they were fixed, more or less, too early. The special manufacturing techniques (e.g. RAM) are all available in Europe. They've not been incorporated as much as in the F-22 & F-35 because of cost & timing. The USA was doing it before Europe, & spent the money to make it work. We're doing that now - but we're not designing new manned aircraft.

[METEORSWARM]

Europe look for uva stealth and ucas stealth hight altitude,for joined to air forces,with typhoon (near 600 in Europe),rafale and gripen + f 35 b,uva and ucas 100km to front typhoon rafale and gripen and f-35.Typhoon,rafale excellent arquery extra low range + f-35b.


You want disuassion easy,use meteor(250km),change cargue explosive by nuclear charge and FUSION SENSOR HEAT MISILE,you have nuclear BVRAAM,dont need high precision,high impact,destroy multiples targets,can launched 200km vs air base,base military,the weapom first and last day.:onfloorl:


Its joke:cool:

[Verstandwaffe]

The europeans are in the dark on the new stealth technology The Germanys signed agreement in order to get the F-35 best believe that


Myabe, maybe not, maybe you would get as surprised as US when in Germany paying visit to MBB, US officials found something strange, less hyped than "glorious" american technology but very similar in design, the Lampyridae.

This thread was a joke (right?) but maybe if Germany brings back plans for a LPD who knows maybe some VTOL JSF could be joining the Bundeswehr

[Vivendi]

Finally sombody fell for it. Yes!

Go visit militaryphotos.net, in the General Discussion section -- a guy called *zeven* found your joke, did not check the date, and presented it as news... After a few posts somebody noticed it was a joke... :D Poor *zeven* has now asked the mods to close the thread but I think it's still open.

V

[Falstaff]

Go visit militaryphotos.net, in the General Discussion section -- a guy called *zeven* found your joke, did not check the date, and presented it as news... After a few posts somebody noticed it was a joke... :D Poor *zeven* has now asked the mods to close the thread but I think it's still open.

V

Oh thanks mate, this is so awesome. :onfloorl: Even when somebody said it was a joke they keep on discussing. Thanks a lot for this link!

[Aussie Digger]

Moved according to requests as this thread was originally intended as an April fool's joke.

Sorry folks, Germany has no announced plans to acquire the F-35 Lightning II aircraft.

That is all.

[Crusader2000]

This may be a bit surprising for most of us, but Germany's defence secretary Jung in a parliamentary debate (broadcasted by TV) just stated that Germany will buy F-35s as a replacement for the remaining Tornado fleet in the past-2015 timeframe. He said that chancellor Merkel talked about the matter with president Obama during their meeting last week. And the interesting thing is, as Germany would never accept a plane they can't modify to their requirements, the delivered F-35s will not be completely outfitted but be ready to be stuffed with German and European stuff, e.g. a European AESA etc. The German F-35 is to be named the "Eurolightning" and will have a sophisticated set of non-lethal or less than lethal weapons designed to provide a whole new level of peacekeeping.

Apart from the fact that this was rumoured for quite a long time, this makes sense to me. At least the F-35 will be able to fulfill the Tornado ECR-role and add a few things. And a completely indigenous Tornado replacement would take some time...



Do you have a link???:confused:

[Falstaff]

Do you have a link???:confused:

Yes, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fool_Day) one. And an advise as well, read the rest of the thread :rolleyes:

[Crusader2000]

Yes, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fool_Day) one. And an advise as well, read the rest of the thread :rolleyes:


I was just surfing the forum and replied to the original post............



That said, I doubt it will be funny when Germany does acquire the F-35......;)