Spanish Air Force

[Templario]

Greetings to everybody, I'm a new member of the forum.
First of all I must apologize for my bad English, despite it I think we'll be able to understand each other (that's the important point).

I would like to start a new thread about the Spanish Air Force, with pictures and so.
I hope you enjoy it ;)


PD: Why is not possible to post pictures? It's a pity :(

[Templario]

SPANISH AIR FORCE



91 F-18 Hornet M+ (The "M+" is the new Spanish upgraded standard for the F-18 Hornet, nowadays the Spanish F-18 hornet is the most advanced F-18 among the foreign countries that use this fighter, the Spanish F-18 M+ cockpit is the same of the Superhornet)

http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/6778/0473025nw1.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6717/avc00070229vq2.jpg


103 EF-2000 (At his moment we have about 30 fighters, we're waiting for the rest)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7080/29569zorh6.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8632/avc00070149sm8.jpg


55 Mirages F1M (They're totally upgraded, being one of the best fighters at "ground atack", you can see the cockpit)

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/1894/eukc3ake1.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6348/dassaultmiragef1msy6fx1.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/1/4/0598418.jpg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/8/3/3/0844338.jpg


22 Nortrop F-5 B (Used for trainment, but they can also be used in case of conflict)

http://i25.tinypic.com/33f5bn9.jpg


92 CASA C-101 (Trainment)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2138/oiacy8ky2.jpg


12 C-130 Hércules (Transport)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5142/245j50ksa4.jpg


103 CASA C-212 (Transport)

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/2223/avc00071395nh5.jpg


20 CASA CN-235 (Transport)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3046/pict7852vlk0720casa20cnbn5.jpg


12 CASA C-295 (Transport, sea patrol and ASW war)

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_C-295_lg.jpg


3 Airbus A-310 (Multi-mission)

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2298/avc00071776cl7.jpg


4 BOEING 707 (Transpor and Intelligence missions)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9714/avc00070305co7.jpg


8 P3 ORION (Sea Patrol and ASW war)

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/709/avc00033754dl3.jpg



I'll post another day the helicopters.

The spanish is a small Air Force, but it's well trained and prepared.

Greetings

[Alonso Quijano]

Spanish Air Army would have to start doing something with the F-18 and Harriers.
everything points to a future F-35, the bad idea that is not like in Spain.

[ROCK45]

Welcome to the forum Templario
I'm interested in learning about the Spanish Air Force so post away.

Welcome to the forum Alonso Quijano
Do you mean the F-35 isn't liked or do you mean the Harrier and/or F/A-18?

[Templario]

Thak you for the Welcome ROCK ;)

I've just posted some information and pictures about the Spanish Air Force, but it must be approved by the Moderation Team or so.
I think we have to wait :rolleyes:

Greetings

[Alonso Quijano]

Welcome to the forum Templario
I'm interested in learning about the Spanish Air Force so post away.

Welcome to the forum Alonso Quijano
Do you mean the F-35 isn't liked or do you mean the Harrier and/or F/A-18?

rock45 thanks.

Spain was interested in participating in the project F-35 but dropped back when the Americans only took money and no transfer of technology.
Furthermore the F-35B is the substitute for our natural harrier aircraft carrier Principe de Asturias and the new BPE, there is something else ...
Is the F-18?
is said to make a joint purchase between the air force and navy so that it leaves the most economical F-35 and replace the F-18, but the Air Force does not like the F-35.
reasons is not lacking, only to see delays and problems the project, in addition to expensive ...
and all for you that you sell a version of export that has nothing to do with the American version.
I do not know what think of the Spanish government but not yet spoken to regarding the replacement of the F-18 and Harrier.

[Ryan UK]

How many eurofighters were ordered for the Spanish airforce? How many have been delivered so far and are there any operational squadrons yet?

Also what sort of Helicopter Fleet do the spanish currently operate?

Cheers

[ROCK45]

Hi Alonso Quijano
Alonso Quijano
no transfer of technology

The US spent billions and billions of dollars on the R&D side we can't just give it away in a sense. If Spain bought a 100 F-35s it still wouldn't add up to the money spent designing and making the F-35. Like the AESA radar were not just going to give it away its business customer pay for the right to own it not to know how it was made. I'm saying that in a nice tone not trying to be mean.

I'm not saying you do buy too many people dislike like the F-35 even before it's finished. I don't understand that it's not even out of the testing stages and nor in full production yet?

I'm a Typhoon fan anything you can tell us about Spain's models or it's future?

Does Spain's pilots like their Hornets?

Thanks

[Alonso Quijano]

How many eurofighters were ordered for the Spanish airforce? How many have been delivered so far and are there any operational squadrons yet?

Also what sort of Helicopter Fleet do the spanish currently operate?

Cheers

87 Eurofighters was ordered but it is believed that the end will be reached by the 103 Eurofighters low of about 18 F-old is in the Canary Islands.
now I think we have some 36 Eurofighters running.
besides we have about 100 F-18, 20 Harriers, 40 fighters F1M/BM mirages.

Helicopter TIGRE but we have few, just opened a factory to start production albacete TIGRE more.
e have also signed for the purchase of 45 NH 90 helicopters.
Sea King helicopters, cougar, superpuma ...

[Alonso Quijano]

Hi Alonso Quijano


The US spent billions and billions of dollars on the R&D side we can't just give it away in a sense. If Spain bought a 100 F-35s it still wouldn't add up to the money spent designing and making the F-35. Like the AESA radar were not just going to give it away its business customer pay for the right to own it not to know how it was made. I'm saying that in a nice tone not trying to be mean.

I'm not saying you do buy too many people dislike like the F-35 even before it's finished. I don't understand that it's not even out of the testing stages and nor in full production yet?

I'm a Typhoon fan anything you can tell us about Spain's models or it's future?

Does Spain's pilots like their Hornets?

Thanks


Spain seems to be waiting to see what happens with this project, I can only say that it does not seem very enthusiastic about the F-35, in fact the F-18 is a modernized avionics and Harriers were in fact the same for them at least 10 years more of life ...

[Templario]

Well, I notice moderators haven't approved my post yet.

A Brief Recopilation of Spanish Air Force:

Combat planes

* 91 F-18 M+ (The "M+" is the Spanish upgraded standard for the F-18 hornet, in fact our F-18 M+ are the most advanced among the foreign countries that use this fighter. The cockpit is the same of the Superhornet)
* 103 EF-2000 (At this moment we just have about 30, the rest are coming as soon as they're being built)
* 55 Mirages F1M (They're totally upgraded, and they're considered some of the best fighters at "ground attack").
* 8 P3 Orion (Sea Patrol and ASW fight, totally upgraded with the Spanish FITS system of CASA)


Other Planes

* 22 F-5 B (Trainment, but in case of conflict they can be used in combat missions).
* 92 CASA C-101 (Trainment)
* 12 C-130 HERCULES
* 103 CASA C-212
* 20 CASA CN-235
* 12 CASA C-295 (Some of them have the role of Sea Patrol and ASW fight)
* 3 Airbus A310
* 4 BOEING 707 (Intelligence and Special Missions)



Compared with other Air Forces ours is a small one, despite it I have to say that it's very well trained and prepared.
There are also other minor planes for secondary roles, but they're not "important".

Later I'll post something about the Helicopters ;)


By the way, there are no moderators here? I want my posts with pictures and links to be approved as soon as possible .... please :p: :D


Cheers

[ASFC]

* 103 EF-2000 (At this moment we just have about 30, the rest are coming as soon as they're being built)



Where did you get 103 from? The Eurofighter website still states that Spain still only plans for 87? Where have the extra 16 aircraft come from? Or when do they plan to order the extra 16?

Even before the reduction in orders in the mid-90s by all partner nations, Spain only planned on buying 100 Typhoons.

[Templario]

Where did you get 103 from? The Eurofighter website still states that Spain still only plans for 87? Where have the extra 16 aircraft come from? Or when do they plan to order the extra 16?

Even before the reduction in orders in the mid-90s by all partner nations, Spain only planned on buying 100 Typhoons.



Spain firstly ordered 87 + 16 Optional EF-2000, and everyone here knows that those 16 optional planes are coming, as this is what the "Ejército del Aire" wants, you will see ;)

You can check this information in any site you want, for example, in the oficial site of EADS:

Spanish Eurofighter - Eurofighter of the Spanish Air Force. As one of the four partner nations (Germany, Spain, Great Britain and Italy) in the largest European cooperation programme Spain has ordered 87 Eurofighter, plus options for further 16 aircraft.

http://www.eads.com/1024/en/gallery/ds/mas/eurofighter.html


The only country I know which is planning to reduce the number of EF-2000 is Italy, because of economical problems with the F-35 Program.

cheers

[ASFC]

Well, its news to me, as it doesn't *seem* to appear in any of the Typhoon PR before.

Cheers.

[swerve]

It was in the PR whenever options were mentioned, which wasn't often. I don't know whether the Spanish options are still extant. IIRC Italy also had some options, but they lapsed. I think there was a deadline by which they had to be renewed, & Italy informed NETMA it did not intend to take them up. I don't know what Spain did.

That EADS link is from a few years ago. It would be nice to see a recent source, clarifying the current status of the options.

[Aussie Digger]

Combat planes

* 91 F-18 M+ (The "M+" is the Spanish upgraded standard for the F-18 hornet, in fact our F-18 M+ are the most advanced among the foreign countries that use this fighter. The cockpit is the same of the Superhornet)

What is the basis of this claim?

[StevoJH]

What is the basis of this claim?

From a couple of quick internet searches i don't believe the Spanish F/A 18A's to have been upgraded as much those belonging to some of the other users. For example i could not find evidence of them being equiped with APG-73.

For example the Australian F/A-18A's have been upgraded with the avionics of the F/A-18C and have the APG-73, among other upgrades as part of the HUG program.

[ROCK45]

Hi Templario
Can you provide a link to Spain's F-18M, I did a quick Google search on it and only found this old source:
Hornet for Spain
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?bg=87&id=12

I know this source is dated but I did learn a few things about Spain's AF and Spain's Hornets. You perk my interests I never heard of a F/A-18M Hornet before so if you can please provide more information thanks.

[Alonso Quijano]

I have found here is a page in Spanish but I translate it:

http://www.saorbats.com.ar/Noticias/NoticiasEspanolas.htm

The first modernized F-18 aircraft took off at Getafe
Delivery of the aircraft to the Air Force confirmed the end of the year. This afternoon, the first modernized F-18 aircraft had taken off from the EADS CASA facilities in Getafe. The flight test was conducted by Commander Gandarillas, pilot testing CLAEX (Logistics Center Armaments and Experimentation), and has proved a success. During the 55 minutes that lasted the flight the pilot has established the perfect operation of the airplane. Following the modernization program, all aircraft now submit the following new features:

A computer with a multiprocessor Tupac tactical high-speed, six buses 1553 to wing tip, four-channel digital graphics and associated software.
Two multifunction color displays
Improved communication systems (new radio Have-Quick II)
An INS / GPS navigation to a precision
Ability to complete identification of targets
External lighting and cockpit compatible with night vision
Camera and recording system for digital mission
Preinstalling MIDS
IDM (Improved Data Modem), the latter being certified.
For the final acceptance of F-18 and 12-62 enrolled before delivery of the airplane at Ala 12, is expected to carry out test flights to check the avionics systems, communication and navigation installed.

Interested in upgrading a total fleet of 67 aircraft (including the retrofit of 2 prototypes used in the process of certification of new systems) operated by the Torrejon, and Ala 12 Ala 15, Zaragoza, and will extend for a period of another three years until the contract ended. This upgrade also means a great effort for the whole team involved in the EADS CASA program, from the production area, shop and flight line to our staff moved in CLAEX, working since last January at full pace, following a timely prescribed timetable and once again showing its preparation and highly skilled. Iran aircraft hangar slowly through the MRO, guaranteeing the operation of the Air Force and security of air defense.
The modernization of the F-18 is now one of the most important programs for the Air Force, which will meet its objectives of increasing the operational capabilities of the plane to Spain and ensure a better interoperability with other allied forces in international missions.
The Software Group's Logistics Center Armaments and Experimentation (CLAEX) Air Force and EADS CASA have actively collaborated in the design and software development and integration and testing of new avionics equipment, as well as the complete development Software integration of the modified system.
The modernization contract was signed on 29 December 2003 at a value of approx. 186 million Euros.

Source: Press Release from EADS Defense and Security Systems from 22 November 2004

[ROCK45]

Iran aircraft hangar slowly through the MRO, guaranteeing the operation of the Air Force and security of air defense.

Hi Alonso Quijano and thanks for posting up more information but I'm confused how does "Iran aircraft hanger slowly through etc, fit into talking about Spain's Hornet's being upgraded? Are they talking with these changes Spain's Hornet's could beat Iran's defenses or something?

Thanks

[Alonso Quijano]

if you look at the F-18 fighter jets to modernize and 67 are not 81 as stated Templario, a difference of 14 F-18, these 14 F-18 upgrade will not think are going to take off in the islands canarias, this makes us suppose that Spain will buy access to more than 16 Eurofighters has an option to purchase.
there is nothing official but I do not know what everyone says ...

[Alonso Quijano]

Hi Alonso Quijano and thanks for posting up more information but I'm confused how does "Iran aircraft hanger slowly through etc, fit into talking about Spain's Hornet's being upgraded? Are they talking with these changes Spain's Hornet's could beat Iran's defenses or something?

Thanks

I think it is a problem of translation, only said that "going to go through the hangar"
:confused:

[Aussie Digger]

From a couple of quick internet searches i don't believe the Spanish F/A 18A's to have been upgraded as much those belonging to some of the other users. For example i could not find evidence of them being equiped with APG-73.

For example the Australian F/A-18A's have been upgraded with the avionics of the F/A-18C and have the APG-73, among other upgrades as part of the HUG program.

According to Raytheon, the Spanish Hornets do not operate the APG-73, so presumably they are still running the original APG-65 radars?

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/apg73/index.html

Not there is anything majorly wrong with this, but it is not as capable as the APG-73, which is a developed version of this radar...

The capabilities listed in the Spanish Hornet upgrade project, have also been incorporated in Australian and Canadian Hornets, with some capabilities (such as APG-73 radar and ALR-67(v3) RWR) that do not seem to have made it onto Spain's Hornets.

Of course, running a new fleet of Eurofighters, might make such upgrades uneconomical. Australia and Canada have no other fighter to rely upon, at present...

[Alonso Quijano]

accurate!
Spanish all the effort is "now" in the Eurofighter which made them all believe in tranche 3.
also thought to change the radar CAPTOR eurofighter the new AESA radar CAESAR.
What also changed the radar of the F-18, "I have seen many pictures of F-18 and jockeying Eurofighters together, I imagine that if a mission a combination of the two well.

[Templario]

Sorry for my late responding, I've benn busy.

Well, what I wanted to say with F-18 M is that in Spanish Air Force that "M" means they're modernized, in fact in Spain those F-18's are called C-15 M ;)
The "M" is just a Spanish nomenclature.

Yes, people here is right, our F-18's weren't equiped with the new APG-73, but they have other important upgrades.
This is what I could find, I don't think you understand Spanish so I'll try to translate them into English. The MLU was:

* New Tactical Computer TPAC with a high speed multiprocessor, 6 1553 buses along the wings, 4 digital graphic channels and new asociated software.

* New HUD

* 2 new colour multifunction screens with high definition.

* Digital tactical maps system.

* MUFC multifunction screen of frontal control.

* Digital colour camera video (for debriefings).

* CIT, Combined Interrogator and Transponder, of INDRA.

* EGI, Embed GPS and Inertial System (GPS and INS integrated) AN/ASN-172

* Filters for FM VOR/ILS inmunity

* Installation of MIDS (Firstly it was "pre-installed", but it was succesfully installed in 2009)

* Integration of AMRAAM, IRIS-T and Meteor.

* ARC-210 Have Quick II radio with anti-jamming.

* Outdoor and Indoor cockpit ilumination, compatible with night vision goggles.

* IDM, improved data modem (a low capacity data-link for text message exchanging or target image sendig without breaking radio silence)


Despite this MLU there were done other upgrades:

* "Alertador" (in English? - Radar Warning Receiver) INDRA ALR-400

* "Dispensadores" (in English? - Counter measure dispensers - flare/chaff) AN/ALE-47

* SQ-600, a precise localization system of emissions.

* ALQ-500 perturber.

* Integration of Paveway III bomb

* Integration of BPG-2000 bomb.

* Integration of Taurus missile.

* 22 "barquillas" (in English? - targetting pods) Litening II and 4 Reccelite (They will be upgraded Litening III with the IR sensor).


These upgrades were done in 67 aircrafts of 91.
I think the other 24 aircrafts have other minor upgrades, but I don't have information about it. Those 24 F-18 are in the Canary Islands.

Talking about the number of EF-2000 the 16 options haven't been rejected, so it's very possible they come. (In fact they will come, count 103 EF-200).

Cheers ;)

[Templario]

I have opened a new thread of pictures about the Spanish Air Force here:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=170827#post170827


I hope you like it.

Cheers

[Aussie Digger]

S

Yes, people here is right, our F-18's weren't equiped with the new APG-73, but they have other important upgrades.
This is what I could find, I don't think you understand Spanish so I'll try to translate them into English. The MLU was:



Yep, they've had a pretty extensive upgrade, but without offence intended, there are other F/A-18A/B/C/D aircraft, that are of a higher specification than these.

Out of fairness, Countries like Australia, Canada and Finland, who don't operate any other fighter aircraft, understandably need a higher specification aircraft, because they don't have anything else...

Moving away from this, has there been any talk in Spain of acquiring the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in years to come, to replace F-5, F-1, F/A-18, and Harrier etc?

A dual F-35/Eurofighter Typhoon force, would be a force to be reckoned with...

[Alonso Quijano]

Yep, they've had a pretty extensive upgrade, but without offence intended, there are other F/A-18A/B/C/D aircraft, that are of a higher specification than these.

Out of fairness, Countries like Australia, Canada and Finland, who don't operate any other fighter aircraft, understandably need a higher specification aircraft, because they don't have anything else...

Moving away from this, has there been any talk in Spain of acquiring the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in years to come, to replace F-5, F-1, F/A-18, and Harrier etc?

A dual F-35/Eurofighter Typhoon force, would be a force to be reckoned with...


no, it appears that Spain does not think of time as the F-35.
in your day to get into Spain was offered the project but did not like the terms to be offered.
I am sure that some day buy F-35B to replace the Harriers of our aircraft carriers but for the moment nothing was said officially.

[Alonso Quijano]

I like Spain for the new F-15 silence.
combined with the typhoon would be a more than respectable air force ...:p:

[Feanor]

I like Spain for the new F-15 silence.
combined with the typhoon would be a more than respectable air force ...:p:

This would leave them awfully short on penetration capabilities. I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.

[Alonso Quijano]

This would leave them awfully short on penetration capabilities. I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.

was a joke, it just said that I like that plane.

[Alonso Quijano]

I found an article that talks about the hornet Spanish:

Efficiency and versatility.

In its role as interceptors, the EF-18 aircraft can use the excellent modernized missile AIM-120B / C U.S. AMRAAM medium range. The inclusion of this material, which can incorporate up to four missiles on the pylons of the aircraft subalares, along with the installation of an interrogation signal and a transponder, has revolutionized the air-air capability of the device. Moreover, short range missiles and AIM-9JULI L (modernized) Sidewinder, were soon joined by the IRIS-T, the fourth generation, and integrated in the Eurofighter.
The Hornet features make reconnaissance aircraft, with the pod of the Israeli firm Rafael RECCELITE that thanks to the MLU can be placed at the focal point of clamping, which increases their effectiveness.

Regarding the attack on the ground, their capacity for using the Maverick missile and a wide range of pumps and smooth braking, has joined in the upgraded machine as the total capacity FBL (Fighter Bomber Laser/Caza- Laser bomber). This qualification, awarded by NATO, allowing the Hornet attack missions with bombs guided by laser in any condition-teorológica me, whether day or night. For these vital tasks, the tool is the laser designators FLIR-LTD/R-LST Rafael Litening II, third generation. Antiradar missiles AGM-88 HARM, and secondarily on the Maverick, trained to destroy the radars and other systems of enemy air defenses.

Have also incorporated new weapons systems for laser-guided equipment, such as the U.S. smart bombs GBU-24 Paveway III, who joined the direction of the laser-guided by GPS, and Spanish busters bombs GPGs-2000 manufactured by EXPAL (Explosives Alavesa), used for guiding the laser head to the GBU-24, manufactured by U.S. company Raytheon. With regard to the missions have antiship missiles AGM-84D Harpoon-1.

As integrated-type cruise missile Taurus KEDP-350, and with them the possibility to launch stand-off, or out of reach of enemy defenses, thanks to its range of over 350 km, electronic system, self-defense and stealth capabilities, the versatility of the EF-18 is absolute.

Nobody knew, when they were finally selected and purchased the equipment in the early eighties, in the midst of the controversy and hostility to the wise decision of some politicians and media, which could achieve this efficiency and versatility. One of the main "guilty" of this important operational life, which led to even participate in attack missions during the conflict in former Yugoslavia, which was scheduled CLAEX, collaborated and integrated successive upgrades of the device. Highlights of this work, among other things, an ongoing series of developments in the software, or OFP (Operational Flight Program), which give a great deal of independence to the Air Force regarding the manufacturer and the United States.

[swerve]

... I would think that the Typhoon/JSF mix would be far more balanced. Then again personally, I think that the F-35 alone would be sufficient as the main fighter. It could be procured in larger numbers, and is by far the most advanced fighter available to spain.
But it isn't available yet. The Typhoon will have been in service 10 years by the time Spain could put its first F-35 into service.

[Templario]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy, there's no plans in the "Ejército del Aire" for buying F-35, and personally I think it's a good decission.
The F-35 is a wonderful fighter (at least seems to be), but I see some things I don´t like for replacing our F-18, for example:

* It has only 1 engine
* It has less space for weapons
* It's not at 100 % of capabilities (The 100 % version is only for USA)
* It doesn't reach Mach 2
* It's ugly (well ... that's only my opinion :onfloorl:)

I'd like to buy more EF-2000 instead of buying F-35.

Another good option would be making a new european consortium and building our own plane.

Germany-France-Spain (3 countries with no F-35's) would be an interesting alliance to construct a new plane :rolleyes:


Cheers

[Alonso Quijano]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy

put a link where you could say that the Navy is interested in the Spanish F-35B?

if an official site better. :rolleyes:

[Aussie Digger]

Spain only wants the F-35B for the Navy, there's no plans in the "Ejército del Aire" for buying F-35, and personally I think it's a good decission.
The F-35 is a wonderful fighter (at least seems to be), but I see some things I don´t like for replacing our F-18, for example:

* It has only 1 engine

- So does the F1 Mirage and the Harrier II...

* It has less space for weapons

- Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...

* It's not at 100 % of capabilities (The 100 % version is only for USA)

- Not exactly fair. No Country EVER gets a fighter as good as the US provides for herself.

* It doesn't reach Mach 2

- Neither does the Hornet. F-35 is likely to be faster in operational configuration than just about any other fighter (except of course the F-22) due to reduced drag on the airframe, thanks to internal weapons and sensors.
* It's ugly (well ... that's only my opinion :onfloorl:)

- Well, one can't argue opinion...

I'd like to buy more EF-2000 instead of buying F-35.

Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?

Another good option would be making a new european consortium and building our own plane.

Germany-France-Spain (3 countries with no F-35's) would be an interesting alliance to construct a new plane :rolleyes:


Cheers

You will need replacements for the Hornets before this aircraft could ever get off the ground...

[Alonso Quijano]

Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...


Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?


if you use all these points to bear arms loses much stealth capabilities, "the main attraction of this airplane."

[Templario]

- So does the F1 Mirage and the Harrier II...

But the F-18 (the fighter which would replace) is a twin-engine ;)
For replacing a twin-engine I want another one.

It's been demonstrated plenty of times that a twin-engine is much more reliable than a plane with just 1 engine.


- Not true. F-35 has 10 hard points in total, Hornet only has 9... F-35 has only "2" rails for A2A missiles. Hornet has 4. F-35 therefore can carry a much greater variety of weapons, basically - more hard points = more weapons...

And if you use all those hard points the stealth capability goes down :rolleyes:.
And if a F-35 is not stealth (and remember that our version wouldn't be as stealth as the american one) then .... what's the good point about the F-35? It's like another F-16 (well, with several electronic improvements and so).


- Not exactly fair. No Country EVER gets a fighter as good as the US provides for herself.

I know, and that's why I prefer to buy a plane at 100 % of capabilities, like the EF-2000 or another one.


- Neither does the Hornet. F-35 is likely to be faster in operational configuration than just about any other fighter (except of course the F-22) due to reduced drag on the airframe, thanks to internal weapons and sensors.

If I want a plane for replacing our F-18 I want it to be more capable in all characteristics.
And yes, the F-35 is more capable than the F-18 ... but not enough in my opinion.



Why? You already have a good number of them.

Is more of the same "legacy" 4th gen fighters, going to provide more capability than new "stealthy" 5th gen fighters?

I think so.

If we want a fast plane which can carry more weapons and we don't focus in the stealth capability the option is the EF-2000, not the F-35.

And in fact I consider more important the speed and weapon capabilities than the stealth (If the F-35 carries all the weapons loses its stealth capability).


You will need replacements for the Hornets before this aircraft could ever get off the ground...

Maybe, but I still think that developing a new plane is a good option, as we design what exactly we want, and of course it's good for our industry.

A project like this woulkd take us about 15 years to develop, so I consider it's a fair period of time for replacing our F-18.


Cheers

[swerve]

put a link where you could say that the Navy is interested in the Spanish F-35B?

if an official site better. :rolleyes:
The Armada is currently building a ship designed to operate the F-35B. Its Harriers have a limited remaining life. What other conclusion can there be?

[Alonso Quijano]

The Armada is currently building a ship designed to operate the F-35B. Its Harriers have a limited remaining life. What other conclusion can there be?

our new ship in the Navy (the BPE), can operate with many different types of ships, but that does not mean you have to buy the F-35B, and is manufactured to operate with allies in NATO.
I suppose that if the substitute natural harrier is the F-35B but for the moment our government is silent.

[Aussie Digger]

But the F-18 (the fighter which would replace) is a twin-engine ;)
For replacing a twin-engine I want another one.

It's been demonstrated plenty of times that a twin-engine is much more reliable than a plane with just 1 engine.

Tell that to the residents of San Diego California...

Anyway, actually it hasn't. The most reliable modern fighter jets in-service are the USAF current F-16s...

And if you use all those hard points the stealth capability goes down :rolleyes:.
And if a F-35 is not stealth (and remember that our version wouldn't be as stealth as the american one) then .... what's the good point about the F-35? It's like another F-16 (well, with several electronic improvements and so).

1. The radar cross section of the F-35 will increase if it carries weapons, that is true. However, it's frontal RCS will still be lower than any other fighter (bar the F-22) and the LO treatments in relation to IR signature and it's emcon (emission control) features will not be affected in the slightest by external weapons carriage. It's "stealth" as you call it, will still be greater than any other fighter, even carrying external weapons.

ANY other fighter Spain can operate however in the next 20 years, can not operate in a VLO configuration. F-35 can. No other STOVL fighter will be developed in the next 20 years.

Interesting tactical opportunities present themselves when operating a "stealth/legacy jet" force with "sleepers" operating in full VLO condition operating alongside "visible" jets...

Such a tactic is impossible without the VLO...

I know, and that's why I prefer to buy a plane at 100 % of capabilities, like the EF-2000 or another one.

Unfortunately such generic statements are meaningless. We are not talking about mathematical equations here, but combat aircraft.

What percentage of the US capability will Spain get?

How does that percentage compare to the known capability of Spain's in-service aircraft and potential threats?

What are the costs involved?

Preferences are all well and good, but it is a silly way of measuring potential combat capability...

If I want a plane for replacing our F-18 I want it to be more capable in all characteristics.
And yes, the F-35 is more capable than the F-18 ... but not enough in my opinion.

I'm guessing you haven't seen the US Government GAO report on F-35 effectiveness, compared to legacy US Navy aircraft (including the F/A-18)?

It's available here:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04900.pdf

In short the GAO, a known F-35 critic, rates the F-35 as:

- 9 times more capable than AV-8B Harrier II

- 5 times more capable than F/A-18A+ (USMC variant) and F/A-18C/D (USN variant)

- 50% more capable than F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet.

I tend to think it might be capable enough... (Page 11, this information can be found).

If we want a fast plane which can carry more weapons and we don't focus in the stealth capability the option is the EF-2000, not the F-35.

But that's half the problem right there. Planes that HAVE to carry external stores, generate enormous amounts of drag, which affects performance, speed and agility.

A Eurofighter Typhoon, loaded up with the same amount of fuel (it needs external tanks to match the F-35's internal fuel load) as the F-35 and the usual weapons load of 2x 2000lbs and 2x AMRAAM will not be any "faster" because of parasitic drag.

And in fact I consider more important the speed and weapon capabilities than the stealth (If the F-35 carries all the weapons loses its stealth capability).

Reality doesn't work like that, I'm afraid.

Large external stores create drag, which decreases potential performance. (Drag directly affects acceleration and top speed). Carrying your weapons and fuel internally means you have less overall drag, even though internal weapons and that much fuel, forces a "boxy" airframe design, the drag penalty of the "boxy design" is FAR less than the drag penalty on external stores.

Large external stores, limit your agility, because of vibration and "G force limits" on the carriage of external stores. A clean Typhoon might be a more agile aircraft than the F-35, and I say "might" because virtually no-one actually knows for sure and those that might are unlikely to say so, but clean performance is irrelevant when discussing combat, because no aircraft will enter combat "clean".

Because of this, a Typhoon loaded up with 3x external tanks (what it needs to match the F-35's internal fuel load), 2x 2000lbs weapons and 2x AMRAAM, plus a targeting pod, all carried externally will not be more agile than the F-35 carrying the same load, internally.

Yes, one can argue that the Typhoon can "punch off" it's external stores and regain the possible performance and agility advantage it possesses, however that option has a name. It's called a "mission kill" which means the Typhoon is prevented from conducting it's mission.

I'm not sure that is a sound method of achieving one's aims on a regular basis...

Maybe, but I still think that developing a new plane is a good option, as we design what exactly we want, and of course it's good for our industry.

A project like this woulkd take us about 15 years to develop, so I consider it's a fair period of time for replacing our F-18.


Cheers

Design is always a compromise. Even the F-22 has compromises which effect overall capability.

The budget available to Spain, Germany and France combined, does not begin to approach the budget the USA has invested in it's 5th Generation fighter aircraft, and whilst this method of assessment is simplistic, it's rather arrogant to believe, in my opinion, that achieving or exceeding what the US has achieved, can be done so on a massively smaller budget...

[Aussie Digger]

if you use all these points to bear arms loses much stealth capabilities, "the main attraction of this airplane."

Much but not all and no-one ever said that EVERY fighter in a fighter package has to carry external weapons...

Some "sleeper" aircraft with "full stealth" and some with less "stealth" but more weapons, will be a VERY dangerous combination to try and fight...

[Alonso Quijano]

Much but not all and no-one ever said that EVERY fighter in a fighter package has to carry external weapons...

Some "sleeper" aircraft with "full stealth" and some with less "stealth" but more weapons, will be a VERY dangerous combination to try and fight...

many people believed so, I found this on a forum:

is an airplane that is very young, the countries that have contributed to it have done so only with money, the U.S. technology shares, and when they will arrive safely to the aircraft many bugs and polishing things. If you buy after you arrive later, OK, but you have already tried a product with fewer bugs.

Then there is what its supposed stealth, the F-35 takes very little of arms, and you will most ultilice that most of the time outside with weapons, so all you have paid for the stealthy, is to shit.

The plane will not stop gaining weight (and price), was initially assumed that was going to be a lightweight fighter, F-16, but is becoming an obese, like the F-16 also, the difference is that the F-16 was doing as they grew, that allowed the engine (had a bestial drive), but the F-35 and comes directly obese, and not change the engine will hold little more = money yet.

[ROCK45]

I would not classified an F-16 a lightweight fighter anymore not since the Block-40 stage, it's grown.

Alonso Quijano
was initially assumed that was going to be a lightweight fighter,
Why would assume a F-35 would to be a lightweight fighter for?

Alonso Quijano let them finished making it first maybe you'll change your mind once a more finished product is released?

My two cents I think the F-35 will be used basically like a F-16/18 bomb truck and not in a stealth mode most of the time. That 40,000 lbs thrust plus engine will haul a lot of iron to the target. Or used in a mixed role first clear any air threat and then bomb the the hell out it.

[Aussie Digger]

many people believed so, I found this on a forum:

is an airplane that is very young, the countries that have contributed to it have done so only with money, the U.S. technology shares, and when they will arrive safely to the aircraft many bugs and polishing things. If you buy after you arrive later, OK, but you have already tried a product with fewer bugs.

Then there is what its supposed stealth, the F-35 takes very little of arms, and you will most ultilice that most of the time outside with weapons, so all you have paid for the stealthy, is to shit.

The plane will not stop gaining weight (and price), was initially assumed that was going to be a lightweight fighter, F-16, but is becoming an obese, like the F-16 also, the difference is that the F-16 was doing as they grew, that allowed the engine (had a bestial drive), but the F-35 and comes directly obese, and not change the engine will hold little more = money yet.

What is this supposed to prove? The poor english aside, it shows little to no comprehension of anything to do with air combat whatsoever.

The F-35 is hardly "obese". Obese compared to what?

For instance your F/A-18A's current specs are:

Length: 17.1m.

Span: 12.3m.

Height: 4.7m.

Empty weight: 10,810kgs. (23,782lbs)

Maximum takeoff weight: 25,401kgs. (55,035lbs).

Internal fuel load: 4926kgs. (10732lbs. Internal and external max fuel - 17,553lbs of fuel).

Maximum payload - (external fuel, weapons sensors): 20521lbs (9372kgs).

Weapons payload if max external fuel carried - 4446kgs (9781lbs).

Thrust: 35400lbs.

Here are the specifications of the F-35A:

Length: 15.4m.

Wing span: 10.7m

Height: 4.6m.

Empty weight: 9980kgs (21956lbs).

Maximum takeoff weight: 22,680kgs. (60,000lbs)

Internal fuel only (not even bothering to count external, it's unlikely to ever need it): 8409kgs (18848lbs).

Payload capacity (weapons and external fuel): 18863kgs (41500lbs).

Thrust: 43,000lbs with F-135. F-136 has not yet demonstrated" operational" thrust figures.

What this means is:

1. F-35 is a physically smaller and lighter fighter than the F/A-18A when empty.

2. It has much greater thrust (7600lbs more).

3. It carries more fuel internally than the F/A-18A can even carry in total. (18484lbs versus 17700lbs) and the F-35A has 4 of it's 6 external hard points "plumbed" for external fuel, meaning it could carry 4x external fuel drop tanks if needed.

4. It has a greater capacity to carry weapons than F/A-18A. (18863kgs v 9372kgs). More hard points and ability to carry a greater weight of weapons.

5. The F-35A is at the beginning of it's developmental lifespan. Assuming the F-35A has no "room for growth" is arrogance personified and is plainly wrong in many different respects.

There is absolutely no comparison, between the capabilities of the two aircraft, without even considering the stealth, advanced avionics etc, the F-35 has.

[swerve]

...
F-18
Empty weight: 10,810kgs. (23,782lbs)
Maximum takeoff weight: 25,401kgs. (55,035lbs).
Internal fuel load: 4926kgs. (10732lbs. Internal and external max fuel - 17,553lbs of fuel).
Maximum payload - (external fuel, weapons sensors): 20521lbs (9372kgs).
Weapons payload if max external fuel carried - 4446kgs (9781lbs).

Here are the specifications of the F-35A:
Empty weight: 9980kgs (21956lbs).
Maximum takeoff weight: 22,680kgs. (60,000lbs)
Internal fuel only (not even bothering to count external, it's unlikely to ever need it): 8409kgs (18848lbs).
Payload capacity (weapons and external fuel): 18863kgs (41500lbs).

[pedantic mode]
All those conversions are wrong, to some degree. The last is the least bad, just being a conversion from a round figure, using a rounded conversion ratio, to s puriously precise figure. The others, though . . .

Apart from the 22680/60000, where there's obviously been some finger trouble (22680 kg is approximately 50000 lb - 60000 lb is 27215 kg), they're mostly the product of a conversion from round numbers (e.g. 22000) of pounds to kg using a pretty exact conversion ratio (about 2.205 or 2.2046), then converted back using a rounded (2.200) ratio. Some don't even match that.

Tut-tut.
[/pedantic mode]

[Alonso Quijano]

calm the F-35 is a big plane, I just put some comments that said many people in other forums ... :D

Many people in Spain want the F-35 but there are always skeptics who criticize.

My personal opinion is that F-35 is an aircraft that is still not well and tried to do well in Spain to await future results to qualify for purchase.
for now our future is a fleet of typhoons combined with modernized F-18.
It is enough to control our only possible threat, "Morocco."
to a lesser extent Algeria.:nutkick

[Aussie Digger]

calm the F-35 is a big plane, I just put some comments that said many people in other forums ... :D

Many people in Spain want the F-35 but there are always skeptics who criticize.

My personal opinion is that F-35 is an aircraft that is still not well and tried to do well in Spain to await future results to qualify for purchase.
for now our future is a fleet of typhoons combined with modernized F-18.
It is enough to control our only possible threat, "Morocco."
to a lesser extent Algeria.:nutkick

A lot of people believed the world was flat for a long time too. Belief alone didn't make them correct...

Swerve,

Yep, there is a lot of difference in the measurements around. Each of those I took off various sites...

There is no doubt in my mind however that the F-35 is smaller physically and lighter (when empty) than the F/A-18A fighter aircraft.

This if nothing else, disproves the "obese" tag that is commonly given to the platform.

Of course it is heavier when fully loaded, but IF an F/A-18 COULD carry as much fuel and ordnance, then it too would be similarly heavier...

[swerve]

...
Swerve,

Yep, there is a lot of difference in the measurements around. Each of those I took off various sites.....
Actually, I wasn't querying the weights themselves (as you say, a lot of variation - and I don't know which ones to believe) but the relationship between the Imperial & metric weights.

[Alonso Quijano]

Now Brazil is considering the purchase of 36 new fighters, and this can be extended till buy 100 new fighter jets.
the Brazilian Air Force to select 3 different planes to assess:

F-18 Super Hornet, Dassault, which offered the French Rafale, and Saab, the Swedish Gripen NG offers.
Brazil also has aircraft carrier purchased from France.
Why not evaluate the F-35?, Are the Brazilian people who think the earth is flat?, Or simply the F-35 does not meet your expectations?

[Sea Toby]

While the British and the Australians hope to have enough Lightning IIs within ten years, Spain and Brazil know they won't receive any within ten years. If they need aircraft within five years, their only solution if to buy now. They can't afford to wait much longer.

Look at the Australians, they couldn't wait to replace their F-111s another five to ten years and bought a similar number of Super Hornets. But they are waiting for the Lightning IIs to replace their legacy Hornets.

[Alonso Quijano]

I read once that Australians were very goats with the delivery of F-35, not even able to saw a F-35 to cope successfully against a Sukhoi 30 or 35 ...
These delays forced you to buy an super hornet and then continue to spend money on F-35.
Spain till within about 10 years will not need a replacement for the F-18, but because Brazil needs it and does not have the F-35, I guess that is why the U.S. refuses to make any transfer of technology.

[Templario]

Tell that to the residents of San Diego California...

Anyway, actually it hasn't. The most reliable modern fighter jets in-service are the USAF current F-16s...

But mate, we're not talking about the US Air Force requirements, we're talking about Spanish Air Force requirements, which are very different from the american ones.

Ask the norwegians about their F-16, because they have crashed about the half of the total F-16 they had. Why? I don't really know :unknown, but I assure you that if those planes had been twin-engines they wouldn't have crashed in such number ...

Americans already have many twin-engines, with F-18, F-15 (a fighter I love ;)) and now F-22 .... they have a huge air force, so they just don't care if they have some fighters with 1 engine. If they crash or something they can afford to replace it without problems.

But Spain? Spain has a small Air Force, so we need a 100 % reliable fighter, and a twin-engine is much more reliable than a 1 engine fighter ;)

(We also have they experience of the Mirages F1, we had about 75 ... now we have 55).



1. The radar cross section of the F-35 will increase if it carries weapons, that is true. However, it's frontal RCS will still be lower than any other fighter (bar the F-22) and the LO treatments in relation to IR signature and it's emcon (emission control) features will not be affected in the slightest by external weapons carriage. It's "stealth" as you call it, will still be greater than any other fighter, even carrying external weapons.

ANY other fighter Spain can operate however in the next 20 years, can not operate in a VLO configuration. F-35 can. No other STOVL fighter will be developed in the next 20 years.

Yes, you're right, the F-35 has many virtues, and that's why we're going to buy it for our Navy .... but I think that's all.

I think it's more probable to buy some Superhornets to replace the older non upgraded hornets than buying F-35.

We still have to wait and see the F-35's performance, and maybe our thoughts change and we decirde to buy it, who knows ... :lol:

Cheers



Ps: By the way, I have updated the photo's thread: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171250#post171250

Hope u like it

[ASFC]

Yes, you're right, the F-35 has many virtues, and that's why we're going to buy it for our Navy .... but I think that's all.



Why, exactly, would any self respecting air force allow its countries naval aviation to own a better fighter aircraft than it does?

If your Navy buys F-35, I suspect that your air force will want some of the action aswell, or at least another platform which is as advanced as it.

That sort of competition does exist between National Air Forces/Service, and shouldn't be discounted quickly. I have watched the Competition between the RAF and FAA here in the UK practically destroy the FAAs fighter/carrier capability.

[Aussie Digger]

Now Brazil is considering the purchase of 36 new fighters, and this can be extended till buy 100 new fighter jets.
the Brazilian Air Force to select 3 different planes to assess:

F-18 Super Hornet, Dassault, which offered the French Rafale, and Saab, the Swedish Gripen NG offers.
Brazil also has aircraft carrier purchased from France.
Why not evaluate the F-35?, Are the Brazilian people who think the earth is flat?, Or simply the F-35 does not meet your expectations?
There concern, just like the RAAF with it's acquisition of Super Hornet, is schedule.

I am a fan if the F-35, I don't think there is much doubt about that around the place, but one thing it will not do is provide a combat capability in the 2010 - 2012 timeframe.

In Australia's case, the Super Hornet is an interim choice until F-35 IS able to 'step up'. In Brazil's case, they need a new fighter before they could ever get the F-35. However the current tender for 36x aircraft is only the first phase of their fighter replacement project...

[Vivendi]

There concern, just like the RAAF with it's acquisition of Super Hornet, is schedule.

I am a fan if the F-35, I don't think there is much doubt about that around the place, but one thing it will not do is provide a combat capability in the 2010 - 2012 timeframe.

In Australia's case, the Super Hornet is an interim choice until F-35 IS able to 'step up'. In Brazil's case, they need a new fighter before they could ever get the F-35. However the current tender for 36x aircraft is only the first phase of their fighter replacement project...
AD, I think it's more than timelines that caused F-35 to drop out of the race.

Some sources claim that the reason was issues with technology transfer:

http://www.forecastinternational.com/abstract.cfm?recno=151424

SAO PAULO, Brazil - Lockheed Martin has just decided not to enter its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in Brazil's Project FX-2 fighter requirement. According to the company, the decision was based on the requirement for technology transfer.


Other sources suggest a combination of reasons:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/brazil-embarking-upon-f-x2-fighter-program-04179/

F-35 industrial partnership and technology transfer issues proved too difficult to overcome, so Lockheed is offering an F-16BR instead.
...
Unfortunately, technology transfer issues were not the F-35’s only problem. Other barriers to an F-35 win included questions surrounding air-air performance against Venezuela’s SU-30MKs, the low likelihood of deliveries before 2016, and its single engine design.
Of course I disagree with the view that there are any questions around F-35 a2a performance against SU-30MKs (or any other 3. or 4. gen a/c) for that matter. Tech transfer, offsets, and perhaps issues with timelines could have been contributing factors is my guess.

Also, if we look at past Brazilian tenders, perhaps one should not discount the possibility that F-35 will be ready by the time Brazil is ready to order ...


V

[Alonso Quijano]

of any similarity with the F-35 Yakovlev Yak-141's 87 years, is it pure coincidence?

[Templario]

Why, exactly, would any self respecting air force allow its countries naval aviation to own a better fighter aircraft than it does?

If your Navy buys F-35, I suspect that your air force will want some of the action aswell, or at least another platform which is as advanced as it.

That sort of competition does exist between National Air Forces/Service, and shouldn't be discounted quickly. I have watched the Competition between the RAF and FAA here in the UK practically destroy the FAAs fighter/carrier capability.

Well, the fact is that only our Navy wants the F-35B.
At the moment our Air Force is not interested in the F-35.
We will see what happens when we have to replace the F-18 ...

[Salty Dog]

AD, I think it's more than timelines that caused F-35 to drop out of the race.


This is the only valid reason the F-35 didn't make it into the F-X2 competition. AFAIK the FAB was keen to acquire the F-35, however it would not meet their acquisition time table. Lockheed Martin offered the F-16BR along with a transition plan to the F-35. The F-16BR was cut in the 1st round.

[Aussie Digger]

AD, I think it's more than timelines that caused F-35 to drop out of the race.

Some sources claim that the reason was issues with technology transfer:

http://www.forecastinternational.com/abstract.cfm?recno=151424 (http://www.forecastinternational.com/abstract.cfm?recno=151424)

See Salty's reply below...



Other sources suggest a combination of reasons:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/brazil-embarking-upon-f-x2-fighter-program-04179/


Of course I disagree with the view that there are any questions around F-35 a2a performance against SU-30MKs (or any other 3. or 4. gen a/c) for that matter. Tech transfer, offsets, and perhaps issues with timelines could have been contributing factors is my guess.

Also, if we look at past Brazilian tenders, perhaps one should not discount the possibility that F-35 will be ready by the time Brazil is ready to order ...


V

If the F-35 struggles against SU-30, then F/A-18E/F, Rafale and Gripen are going to be absolutely useless.

Seems the Brazilian Air Force doesn't agree with this idea however, given it evaluated the Sukhoi jet extensively a few years back, when Sukhoi announced it was "90% certain" it had won the F-X competition with the SU-30.

As is the case with Brazil's fighter program, DID, being a firm advocate of the Air Power Australia cult, struggles to comprehend reality at times...

I even had to pull a photo off Wikipedia once to convince them that the upgraded FFG frigates in RAN service, were keeping the Mk 13 launcher and gaining Mk 41 VLS. They argued extensively with me, that the Mk 41 VLS HAD replaced the Mk 13 and thus the FFG's were dangerously "ill-equipped" for their air warfare role...

[Vivendi]

This is the only valid reason the F-35 didn't make it into the F-X2 competition. AFAIK the FAB was keen to acquire the F-35, however it would not meet their acquisition time table. Lockheed Martin offered the F-16BR along with a transition plan to the F-35. The F-16BR was cut in the 1st round.
I found it strange that the "F-16BR with the transition plan to the F-35" was cut in the first round, if timelines was the only reason F-35 was not offered. This is what I did not understand.

Unless the offer from LM was so crappy compared to the others that Brazil decides to go for another, cheaper stop-gap? I find it hard to believe that SH and Rafale are cheaper than F-16, but I may be wrong? If I am not wrong, only Gripen NG is left on the table as a cheap, relatively capable stop-gap until F-35 becomes available.


V

[Aussie Digger]

I found it strange that the "F-16BR with the transition plan to the F-35" was cut in the first round, if timelines was the only reason F-35 was not offered. This is what I did not understand.

Unless the offer from LM was so crappy compared to the others that Brazil decides to go for another, cheaper stop-gap? I find it hard to believe that SH and Rafale are cheaper than F-16, but I may be wrong? If I am not wrong, only Gripen NG is left on the table as a cheap, relatively capable stop-gap until F-35 becomes available.


V

If the timetable IS an issue, then the Gripen NG would seem to have very little chance. Rafale and Super Hornet can be ordered pretty much "off the shelf".

Gripen NG is a development aircraft, that doesn't even have a radar yet and hasn't completed it's testing and development on the airframe and engine integration. With the radar, they only chose a development partner (it's second one) a couple of days ago...

Whilst it's no doubt a good opportunity to get in early on the development of a 4.5 gen fighter, it won't be in-service any time soon...

[swerve]

Gripen NG is a development aircraft, that doesn't even have a radar yet and hasn't completed it's testing and development on the airframe and engine integration. With the radar, they only chose a development partner (it's second one) a couple of days ago...
First development partner. The supply of an array for Saab-Ericsson to use as a development tool was always intended to be separate from the selection of a development partner for the definitive radar. Thales was only ever one of three or four contenders for the development partner (Selex, Raytheon & maybe Northrop Grumman being the others), despite being chosen to supply the test array.

BTW, the NG is, in theory, available with the current Gripen radar. The NG isn't an all-new aircraft, it's a set of incremental upgrades, not all dependent on each other. You'll be able to retrofit the avionics upgrades to older Gripens without the airframe or engine changes, for example.

[Aussie Digger]

BTW, the NG is, in theory, available with the current Gripen radar. The NG isn't an all-new aircraft, it's a set of incremental upgrades, not all dependent on each other. You'll be able to retrofit the avionics upgrades to older Gripens without the airframe or engine changes, for example.

Indeed, and this is where I see it being most successful. Countries who want a heavier fighter with more range, would be more likely just to buy one initially, I'd suggest.

Extent Gripen users will be wanting upgrades in future years though, I would expect, hence it's a smart idea to do it this way.

Possible new-build orders and probable upgrade paths...

[swerve]

Agreed. As an upgrade path, it has the potential to be successful in a modest way even if no all-new airframes are sold, & for sales of even a small number of new aircraft to be viable. It makes second-hand Gripens, & new-build non-NG Gripens, more attractive.

I don't see large numbers of Gripen NGs being sold, though, unless it's bought by India, which I think is unlikely. Scores rather than hundreds.

[Aussie Digger]

Agreed. As an upgrade path, it has the potential to be successful in a modest way even if no all-new airframes are sold, & for sales of even a small number of new aircraft to be viable. It makes second-hand Gripens, & new-build non-NG Gripens, more attractive.

I don't see large numbers of Gripen NGs being sold, though, unless it's bought by India, which I think is unlikely. Scores rather than hundreds.

Yep and all those recently retired A/B model Gripens, with relatively low flight hours, are going to decrease the chances of new build orders.

Sweden is reducing her Gripen fleet, to around 100 I think? Didn't she originally order 200+?

That's a LOT of aircraft that are seemingly already available, for an aircraft type that has attracted a few international orders, but all relatively small...

I see Bulgaria and Greece have already been offered some...

[Salty Dog]

If the timetable IS an issue, then the Gripen NG would seem to have very little chance. Rafale and Super Hornet can be ordered pretty much "off the shelf".

Gripen NG is a development aircraft, that doesn't even have a radar yet and hasn't completed it's testing and development on the airframe and engine integration. With the radar, they only chose a development partner (it's second one) a couple of days ago...

Whilst it's no doubt a good opportunity to get in early on the development of a 4.5 gen fighter, it won't be in-service any time soon...

The acquisition timetable was an issue for the F-35, but most likely not for the Gripen NG as it is one of the three F-X2 finalists.

[Aussie Digger]

The acquisition timetable was an issue for the F-35, but most likely not for the Gripen NG as it is one of the three F-X2 finalists.

I agree, but what does the SAAB proposal actually include? Bulgaria, Romania and Greece have been offered second hand Gripens initially, with new builds "down the track", when they are ready.

NG IS a development fighter. They are developing the AESA, which I presume is included in their response, from scratch. The airframe has been redesigned somewhat, especially with landing gear and fuel tank arrangements, the weapons load configurations are different and the flight testing to verify these changes has yet to be done.

Only a demonstrator has been created so far and for a significant flight test program, they are going to need more than one aircraft to conduct it in any sort of rapid timeframe, yet I haven't seen any announcements of money going towards building more development aircraft...

Being the cynic that I am, it seems to me, that such will only occur, once a buyer decides to fund it...

[Salty Dog]

I agree, but what does the SAAB proposal actually include? Bulgaria, Romania and Greece have been offered second hand Gripens initially, with new builds "down the track", when they are ready.


AFAIK it's the Gripen NG variant, new builds only for F-X2.

Nice information on the used Gripens, makes me wonder about the Indian MRCA program.

[Vivendi]

I agree, but what does the SAAB proposal actually include? Bulgaria, Romania and Greece have been offered second hand Gripens initially, with new builds "down the track", when they are ready.

Saab seems to claim that NG can be ready 24 months after signing the contract; second hand Gripens delivered 6 months after signing the contract:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/104336/sweden-offers-gripen-to-greece.html

I think Saab indicated last year that NG can be ready by 2012, if a customer needs it by that time.


NG IS a development fighter. They are developing the AESA, which I presume is included in their response, from scratch. The airframe has been redesigned somewhat, especially with landing gear and fuel tank arrangements, the weapons load configurations are different and the flight testing to verify these changes has yet to be done.

Saab has been working on the AESA for several years, partly in R&D projects with Selex, the selected partner for AESA development:

http://www.saabgroup.com/SaabGroup.Web.WebSite/Templates/PressRelease.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7BC0AA8263-9E03-4267-89C7-7FFBC109CD63%7D&NRORIGINALURL=%2Fus%2FMediaRelations%2FPressreleas es%2Fpressrelease.htm&NRCACHEHINT=Guest&Print=yes&Print=yes&Year=2006&PressreleaseId=139674

The mods to the airframe we've talked about before; they are rather small, with minimal changes in aerodynamics. Also a CFT changes aerodynamics, and planes getting a CFT are of course tested, but not to the same extent as a new plane, and few would claim that an a/c with CFT is a "new" a/c.

V

[swerve]

NG IS a development fighter. They are developing the AESA, which I presume is included in their response, from scratch. The airframe has been redesigned somewhat, especially with landing gear and fuel tank arrangements, the weapons load configurations are different and the flight testing to verify these changes has yet to be done.

Only a demonstrator has been created so far and for a significant flight test program, they are going to need more than one aircraft to conduct it in any sort of rapid timeframe, yet I haven't seen any announcements of money going towards building more development aircraft...

Being the cynic that I am, it seems to me, that such will only occur, once a buyer decides to fund it...
Of course it needs flight testing, but it isn't an all-new aircraft, & doesn't need the same level of testing as an all-new aircraft would. The airframe is mostly the same. The demonstrator was rebuilt from an old Gripen, flying 10 months after the decision was taken to go ahead. The aerodynamics are only slightly changed, & shouldn't need much change to the software. Radar development isn't from scratch. Work on the back end has been going on for years, though I think at a fairly low tempo. IIRC Ericsson had a Raytheon array connected to a modified PS/05A back end on a test bench a long time ago, & may have flown it - though not in a Gripen.

The Swedish government agreed to fund the NG 4 months after it was launched.

[Josef]

Spanish Air Army would have to start doing something with the F-18 and Harriers.
everything points to a future F-35, the bad idea that is not like in Spain.

It's supposed to be F-16s.

NATO standard in Spain until 2030?

[Alonso Quijano]

It's supposed to be F-16s.

NATO standard in Spain until 2030?

F-18 I do not think we will last more than 10 years ...