Midtguardian Navy

[Bozoo]

Midtguardia is an imagined country between the borders of Sweden and Norway, partly manefested in the H0 scale (1:87). It is imagined with a 100 km coastline, a capital city on the seaboard behind a sprawling archipelagos and a major international merchant shipping fleet.

In addition to the capital city, I am modelling the Midtguardian defence forces (if interested, please refer to the other two Midtguardian defence threads on Army and General defence)

The navy currently consists of a Vosper Fast patrol boat, an ex US Coast Guard cutter, a German type modern LCU and 3 old WWII vintage landing craft.

I now have the opportunity to purchase one custom produced ship model of my own choice. I would like some input as to which class of ship I should commission. I am thinking of a general purpose frigate, perhaps along the lines of a British type 23 Duke class frigate. Nothing substantially bigger, as this model would be more than one meter long.

Possible roles:

Fleet flag ship
C3I for landing operations
escort duty (in cooperatoin with allied shipping)
counter blockade operations

The ship must have some ASW capability and sufficient air defence not to be entirely helpless on its own. Good coms and room for staff.

Main sub hunting/mine hunting capability by land based CH 53 helicopters

Planned additions to the navy will be 6 coastal subs and 2 - 5 missile patrol boats.

Please, no discussion about whether or not the Midtguardian society can support such a vessel, just take my word for it, it can. What I need is to find the best ship.

Suggestions for the missile partol boats are also welcome. I will retire the Vosper when the new boats are on line.

[ASFC]

The ship must have some ASW capability and sufficient air defence not to be entirely helpless on its own. Good coms and room for staff.

Type 22 B3. A bit bigger than a Type 23, plenty of room for staff, good Point Air Defence, Good ASW, 1-2 Helos (depending on Hanger size), CIWS, harpoon etc. Sounds just like what you want, if a little bit big.

[Bozoo]

Type 22 B3. A bit bigger than a Type 23, plenty of room for staff, good Point Air Defence, Good ASW, 1-2 Helos (depending on Hanger size), CIWS, harpoon etc. Sounds just like what you want, if a little bit big.

The Broadsword class bathch III of which the Cornwall is a typical example. Not exactly very handsome ships though. 8 Harpoons SSMs, dual Sea Wolf 6 cell SAMs, Goalkeeper CIWS and even twin 20mm Oerlikons, DP main gun in addition to two 3 cell ASW torpedo tubes and a towed array, 32 kts top speed and 7000 nm range, as well as hangar facilities for two helos and the operations space makes it a fine suggestion. It is quite big though. At loa 143 meters the model will be just over 1,5 meters long.

I can see however that this ship may be as close as I can come to a flag ship that can operate independantly and be able to hold its own to some extent. I especially like the CIWS as this gives the ship a measure of self protection and the main gun.

Any other suggestions?

[Aussie Digger]

What about an Abaslon class frigate?

http://www.casr.ca/id-danish-naval-projects-absalon.htm

Gives a nice RO-RO transport, a limited Amphibious warfare capability, plus a strong frigate capability (if equipped with sufficient sensors/radar systems) and with a good growth capacity (the Danes want to integrate a genuine AAW capability I believe, with 3D radar and SM-2).

A seemingly excellent design for a small navy, I should think.

[Bozoo]

What about an Abaslon class frigate?

http://www.casr.ca/id-danish-naval-projects-absalon.htm

Gives a nice RO-RO transport, a limited Amphibious warfare capability, plus a strong frigate capability (if equipped with sufficient sensors/radar systems) and with a good growth capacity (the Danes want to integrate a genuine AAW capability I believe, with 3D radar and SM-2).

A seemingly excellent design for a small navy, I should think.

Thank you! Seems to be just the ticket. I'll be checking this alternative extensively.

[hvidtfeldt]

You can actually buy a model of the Absalon class from Billing boats.
But what about the new danish patrol frigates derived from the Absalon class ?

Link in danish with 3-D models

http://http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/Billedserier/2006_Patruljeskib/Patruljeskib.htm (http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/Billedserier/2006_Patruljeskib/Patruljeskib.htm)
http://http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2008/0201_NyeFregatter.htm (http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2008/0201_NyeFregatter.htm)


For a missile patrol caft I suggest the danish Willemoes class

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm200/fsorensen/Ships/IMG_0476.jpg Or the quite similar swedish Spica/Norrköping boats
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm200/fsorensen/Ships/P6170016c.jpg

[Bozoo]

[QUOTE=hvidtfeldt;167769]You can actually buy a model of the Absalon class from Billing boats.
But what about the new danish patrol frigates derived from the Absalon class ?

Link in danish with 3-D models

http://http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/Billedserier/2006_Patruljeskib/Patruljeskib.htm (http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/Billedserier/2006_Patruljeskib/Patruljeskib.htm)
http://http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2008/0201_NyeFregatter.htm (http://www.navalhistory.dk/Danish/SoevaernsNyt/2008/0201_NyeFregatter.htm)

Thanks for the update. The Abalon was a new aquaintance on the Billing roster that I didn't know about. Unfortunately, the model is scale 1:100 which is not acceptable as all units must be strictly scale 1:87. This poses a major problem as there is a lot of 1:100 and 1:72 scale ships and aircraft, scales that one might consider reasonably close, but experience has shown that the difference is clearly visible.

The Abalon is a very interesting concept as it seems uniquely flexible. It will definitely be able to fulfill a number of roles in the Midtguardian navy.

One of these is the counter blockade role. AS a small country with only one deep sea harbour and a large merchant navy as well as a potential conflict with both Norway and Sweden due to the fact that none of these have ever formally recognised Midtguardia, it is of importance to secure access to the sea. An Abalon class ship would be a major presence and ensure a blockade cannot be enforced without the blockading nations having to allocate serious rescources as well as ensuring that these rescources will be at a very visible risk. The greatest risk would of coarse come from our six planned coastal subs, but the Abalon class would be a very visible contestant and a major asset in the ensuing public relations war.

[Bozoo]

Another role is flag waving. The ship seems uniquely suited for this.

I would be very interested in projecting an area air defence envelope, thus specialising the ship as an air defence frigate if possible. What would be a good sensor/weapons suite? I would think a phased array radar would be a good idea. What would this look like.

Such a capability would enhance the country's entire air defence stature and would even be able to protect the capital when in port. Or is this realistic?

The ability to transport even tanks is very interesting. Because of the archipelagos surrounding the capital, the navy as it exists today is more or less constructed to enable transport of military units to the many islands to deny these to an enemy, as well as a means to circumnavigate land forces threatening the borders, staging a landing and attacking such forces from behind. The Abalon class would be excelent as a command ship.

[Bozoo]

But what about the new danish patrol frigates derived from the Absalon class ?
Link in danish with 3-D models

For a missile patrol caft I suggest the danish Willemoes class


I think the Absalon class is better suited as my only big ship. Do you know what the angled black panel on what looks as the aft stack on the Frigate 3 D drawings are? Is it a radar sensor or some sort of IR deflection device for exhaust fumes?

I'm not sure about the Willemoe class though, it seems somewhat outdated?

[OPSSG]

I'm not sure about the Willemoe class though, it seems somewhat outdated?

Depending on your preferred size and availability of scale models you may want to consider the 3 listed, as they have different capabilities:

(i) Armidale Class Patrol Boat (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/armidaleclass/);

(ii) Laksamana Class Corvettes (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/laksamana/) (I know you like naval guns, so I suggested this); and

(iii) Gowind Corvettes (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gowind_corvettes/).

Cheers

[ASFC]

May I suggest another Danish class-the Flyvefisken class. It can be fitted out for Surveillance, MCM, Combat, SAR, Mine laying and can carry similar weapons to the Absalon class (OTO 76mm, Harpoon, Sea Sparrow) and shares the flex system.

[Bozoo]

Depending on your preferred size and availability of scale models you may want to consider the 3 listed, as they have different capabilities:

(i) Armidale Class Patrol Boat (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/armidaleclass/);

(ii) Laksamana Class Corvettes (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/laksamana/) (I know you like naval guns, so I suggested this); and

(iii) Gowind Corvettes (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/gowind_corvettes/).

Cheers

Thanks for your feedback on this. The most interesting of these three is the Laksamana class, which are more or less mini frigates with more or less the same capabilities in a smaller hull. Very well equipped and well armed, these are obviously independant fighting platforms in thier own right.

The Armidale is not sufficiently armed for my purpose and the Gowinds are too big and expensive. I do like the Flyvefisken class that ASFC suggested.

Now, the role I have envisaged for the missile boats is first of all to lurk around in the archipelagos, hide behind islands and buschwak enemy forces making their way towards the coast. Between them, the missile boats, the coastal subs and the landbased big guns of the coastal fortress would prove quite an obstacle I think.

Small hulls and shallow draught are therefore important attributes, as well as SSMs.

In many aspects the Flyvefisken class with its 76 mm DP cannon and its Harpoon SSMs with a draught of 2,6 meters seems a very good proposition.

But I'm very intrigued with the Laksamana class. I like their overall capabilities with guns, SSMs, SAMs, ASW and sensor suite makes for very capable weapon systems within the confines of a 62 metre hull.

I think an ideal Midtguardian navy would be as follows:

1 Absalon class
2 Laksamana class

Together these three ships would constitute a combat group able to mount counter-blockade operations of some force, as well as flag-waving, anti pirate operations and escort duties in co-operation with allied forces.

3 Flyvefisken class equipped as missile boats
1 Flyvefisken class equipped as mine vessel
1 Flyvefisken class equipped as submarine support vessel

6 Type 209 coastal submarines

1 LSU
3 LST

The Absalon class will be my first order. The Landing boats are already in the inventory and the subs will be made from scratch by myself. I'll have to wait with the Laksama class and the Flyvefisken boats. This is going to cost me a shitload of money, but by the saints, I'll have the best H0 scale navy in the world by the time I'm through. Just think about the fantastic site the naval base will be!

By the way, I'm just six weeks away from taking delivery of my first Hawkeye, in Royal Midtguardian livery. I'll post pictures as soon as its delivered.

[OPSSG]

Please remember to upgrade/update the radar on the Laksamana Class Corvettes to the Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D volume search radar (and also found on the Absalon class) for a more modern solution and provide for a UAV and a USV for these vessels to fully kit them up. :)

BTW, I would strongly recommend that you never plan in 1s for navies, so please consider reducing the number of other assets (like the LSTs or submarines) so that you can afford 2x Absalon class vessels. This will ensure that x1 will always be available (even if the other goes in for refits or repairs).

You may also want to consider standardizing even the surface-to-air and surface-to-surface missiles across the whole fleet, in the interest of logistics commonality.

[Bozoo]

Please remember to upgrade/update the radar on the Laksamana Class Corvettes to the Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D volume search radar (and also found on the Absalon class) for a more modern solution and provide for a UAV and a USV for these vessels to fully kit them up. :)

BTW, I would strongly recommend that you never plan in 1s for navies, so please consider reducing the number of other assets (like the LSTs or submarines) so that you can afford 2x Absalon class vessels. This will ensure that x1 will always be available (even if the other goes in for refits or repairs).

You may also want to consider standardizing even the surface-to-air and surface-to-surface missiles across the whole fleet, in the interest of logistics commonality.

Is there really room for UAV and USVs on the Laksamana class? They allready seem quite cluttered. But such equipment should definatly be included in the Absalon class. Good point about upgrading the Laksamana class corvettes with the Thales radar, allthough this has to be somewhere in the future as the Absalon will allready be overtaxing the MDF defence budget for 2009.

I have a representative visiting Vietnam at the moment looking in on a couple of different factories because he is setting up a production line for some model boats for his business. He's going to be my liasson over there to get production of the Absalon class going. I'll have to decide on the specifics as to the weapons choice and sensor suite within a month or so to be able to specify the external design of weapons and sensors.

I would like to enhance the air defence capabilities of the Absalon to be able to establish an area defence envelope around the ship, ideally to enhance the air defence situation around the capital when the ship is in harbour. The Thales SMART S Mk 2 is, as far as I can discern, a radar suitable for such a role. Is that correct? Could you suggest a weapon system?

I see your point about ordering a sistership. Unfortunately, the LSTs are allready there and the subs are cheap to build. The second Absalon would probably come at the expense of the "Flyvefisken" missile boats, as these would cost somewhat more than an Absalon. I will take it into consideration though.

By the way, I'm setting up the armoured brigade for photos. Just to show you guys its not just words.:cool: The parade will take place sometime next week.

[OPSSG]

Is there really room for UAV and USVs on the Laksamana class? They allready seem quite cluttered. But such equipment should definably be included in the Absalon class. Good point about upgrading the Laksamana class corvettes with the Thales radar, allthough this has to be somewhere in the future as the Absalon will allready be overtaxing the MDF defence budget for 2009.

If you are only operating x1 Absalon class (which has hanger space for 2 helicopters), then I would not recommend the Laksamana class corvettes and ask you to consider the Nakhoda Ragam Class or F2000 family of vessels. There are 3 actual vessels available for sale as they have been rejected by Brunei. These vessels can potentially provide your fleet with better anti-submarine capabilities than the acquisition of the Laksamana class, as you can deploy anti-submarine helicopters or a VTOL UAV like the Fire Scout (http://www.vtol.org/uavpaper/NavyUAV.htm) from their decks (there are no helicopter hangers in this class of vessel).

F2000 or Nakhoda Ragam (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/) class designed for and rejected by Brunei (see pixs) (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/nakhoda3.html) may be a better choice. It has been suggested that the lack of trained personnel (http://www.shippingtimes.co.uk/ite808_brunei.htm) in the Royal Brunei Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Brunei_Navy) resulted in their rejection. I do not think these allegations provide a complete picture of the arbitrated dispute and the Brunei navy enjoys a very close relationship with the RSN.

Modern anti-submarine warfare often uses multiple helicopters, VTOL UAVs or USVs to deploy dipping sonar (like HELARS) in conjunction with towed variable depth sonar (like the ALOFTS system) both of which are used by the USN and the RSN (see post #108 for details) (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6411&page=8). Please note that the Nakhoda Ragam class is equipped with a hull mounted sonar. A towed fish sonar like the ALOFTS system can be recommended for your Absalon class frigate/muti-purpose vessel (which has the Atlas Elektronik ASO 94-01 hull-mounted sonar (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/absalon/)), as a towed fish system (in conjunction with dipping active sonar and passive sonar) adds important detection capabilities in littoral waters, IMHO. This approach to submarine detection is often called multi-static sonar and you should read up on this area (links are provided in the RSN thread, see posts #80-#89 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6411&page=6) & #108 (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6411&page=8)).

I think the F2000 family has more space for these types of systems and a helicopter deck is also useful for the launch and recovery of small UAVs or VTOL UAVs. With VUIT-2 (for the Apache) (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/mfc/MFC-Apache_VUIT-2_ProductCard.pdf), LM is developing a capability for helicopters and UAVs to share streaming video, significantly extending the video relay range of line-of-sight UAVs. IAI Malat and HAL (http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/exclusive-chetak-uav-insideout.html) is exploring a Naval Rotary-wing UAVs (NRUAV) platform (which is currently for surface warfare).

Is there really room for UAV and USVs on the Laksamana class? They already seem quite cluttered. But such equipment should definitely be included in the Absalon class.

The point on carriage of UAVs is covered earlier and there are various methods for recovery of small UAVs (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/targets/fitch.pdf) on ships. You should check them out yourself. Further, an USV (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/technology/usvmppr.pdf) can be a 7m boat, no reason why it cannot be carried aboard any reasonable sized navy vessel (in fact Naval technology has a pix of a 7m boat carried on the Laksamana class). Again please see the RSN thread for the 2 different types of USVs operated by the RSN.

By the way, I'm setting up the armoured brigade for photos. Just to show you guys its not just words.:cool: The parade will take place sometime next week.

I am looking forward to pictures of your parade.

[Bozoo1]

Bozoo is back as Bozoo1. The Midtguardian navy decided to commision 5 Blink class missile gunboats of Norwegian design. Delivery any day. OPSSG; do you know how to post pictures. I never got around to having the parade, but had an excibition where about half my forces where presented. I've got pictures.

[OPSSG]

Bozoo is back as Bozoo1. The Midtguardian navy decided to commision 5 Blink class missile gunboats of Norwegian design. Delivery any day. OPSSG; do you know how to post pictures. I never got around to having the parade, but had an excibition where about half my forces where presented. I've got pictures.

I think you can start a Midtguardian models thread and post in the Military Models forum (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-models/) in DT - it's just a suggestion.

IMHO, the best approach take your pixs and host them in your favourite image hosting website. Next you can insert these hosted pixs in your new thread, like so: (IMG) [provide http location] (/IMG), that way we can see the pixs immediately in the Midtguardian models thread. If want to see coding examples, please click a reply to any of my posts in my pix thread, see - US Chief Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr. visits Singapore (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/military-photos-videos/us-chief-army-gen-george-w-casey-jr-visits-singapore-9471-4/). You'll see the coding necessary to insert hosted images and YouTube videos.

I hope to see your model parade pixs soon. :)

[matthew22081991]

I notice I am too late but I'll comment as to what I would have suggested anyway.

This would have been a Type 22. Britain's got Type 22s that will have to go sooner or later. They have the size for staff (so good as flagship, often used as such for NATO) and are perfectly effective all-rounders, with excellent ASW capabilities. They are escort ships and Britain uses them with NATO plenty so that's that covered. Dunno about C3I but have no doubt they must be perfectly capable in that too, since they are used as flagships it would make sense.

Please, no discussion about whether or not the Midtguardian society can support such a vessel, just take my word for it, it can.

Well I am a regular over to good old Mitguardia and must say the economic crisis has hit them hard haha ;)

How'd you come up with the name anyway?

[1805]

how about 3-4 enlarged visby class with 2 x 57 or 76mm guns and 2 x 8 cell VLS for ESSM/Harpoon etc 1250t maybe diesel powered 35kt, longer range and 21" spearfish torpedo for ASW

[Bozoo1]

I notice I am too late but I'll comment as to what I would have suggested anyway.

You're not really too late. The missile boats will be delivered in February and I'm still considering one, or maybe two frigates.

The financial crisis has had no influence on Midtguardian defense spendings, on the contrary, as funds are available on an unprecedented scale at the same time as suppliers are cutting their prices.

At the moment we are upgrading the airforce transitioning from F 4 to Eurofigthers.

The name Midtguardia, is derived from the old Norse name Midgard, which means "the place in the middle" and refers to the human habitat in the Norse mythology, between Valhall (heaven) and Hel (hell). It seemed a fitting name as the country's simulated position between Norway and Sweden governs its politics.

[Bozoo1]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will do just that and post on the military models.

I'll also try to post the link to some pictures here. Meanwhile some pictures can be found on facebook.com by searching for Midtguardia Defence system group. There is one picture of the gunboat on order, and one of a squadron from the armoured regiment. The main pictures are from the Midtguardian airforce base, Anki, with pictures from the infrastructure as well as aircraft. The comments are in English for your benefit.:)

[Feanor]

T be honest purchasing the EF makes little sense. Why not the Gripen? Or if you're looking for a purchase that isn't dependent on Norway or Sweden, get some refurbished F-16s or even refurbished Fulcrums. Those could come very very cheap. And typically, if handled well, will cost less to operate in the long run, then the large and sophisticated EF.

[Bozoo1]

T be honest purchasing the EF makes little sense. Why not the Gripen? Or if you're looking for a purchase that isn't dependent on Norway or Sweden, get some refurbished F-16s or even refurbished Fulcrums. Those could come very very cheap. And typically, if handled well, will cost less to operate in the long run, then the large and sophisticated EF.

I need a modern air defense fighter as this is my main worry. I have managed to buy 12 machines and hope to get another 24 giving me 36 fighters, and thus stopping the upgrade of my F 4s. I'll use these as as maritime strike aircraft and for Wild Weasel duties. I can't get Gripens as the Swedes hate my guts and availiable F 16s are old and require major maintenance work for every flight hour.

And again - there just aint no F 16's around in my scale.:)

[Feanor]

New-build F-16s are available. After refurbishing, if it's a major purchase, you can get them in very good condition and maintenance won't be a major issue. Finally the used and refurbished Fulcrum market is still huge. And a whole lot cheaper then a new EF.

Also, just to give an idea, the Malaysian airforce has under 30 fighter jets.... :)

Again the EF, a big ticket item, makes little sense. No F-16s for your scale? What scale models do you use? Just curious.

[matthew22081991]

At the moment we are upgrading the airforce transitioning from F 4 to Eurofigthers.

That's quite a leap in capability.

I can't get Gripens as the Swedes hate my guts.

Why? I always took them as such friendly people :P

The comments are in English for your benefit.

Don't get any ideas about making us speak Mitguardian in the comments, I approve of English entirely!!! :P

[Bozoo1]

New-build F-16s are available. After refurbishing, if it's a major purchase, you can get them in very good condition and maintenance won't be a major issue. Finally the used and refurbished Fulcrum market is still huge. And a whole lot cheaper then a new EF.

Also, just to give an idea, the Malaysian airforce has under 30 fighter jets.... :)

Again the EF, a big ticket item, makes little sense. No F-16s for your scale? What scale models do you use? Just curious.

The scale is H0, that is 1:87, which is the universal scale for model railroads. The model railroad that I started up with 49 years ago is what Midtguardia sprang out of, which means that there is en entire civilian infrastructure as well, specifically downtown Gustavsberg, in addition to the defense forces.

The fact is, the only jets that are available are the F 4, the A 10, the EF and the F 104, and even those very difficult to come by. The EFs are no longer on the market and there was therefore run a production line specifically for me.

I do see your point about the number of aircraft though. I know Austria bought just 15 EFs. Midtguardias problem though is that both Sweden and Norway wants their territory back and I have to have sufficient forces to discourage any rash decisions. The 12 EFs already in my inventory will be enough for air policing, but hopelessly outmatched by Norways 50+ F 16s and Swedens 120+ Gripens. Obviously, I could never hope to match this, but a combination of 36 EF's and a possible future Patriot battery (hugely expensive in H0 scale) might make Midtguardias adversaries think twice.

[Bozoo1]

That's quite a leap in capability.



Why? I always took them as such friendly people :P



Don't get any ideas about making us speak Mitguardian in the comments, I approve of English entirely!!! :P

Yes I know, it will be quite the challenge to make the world speak Mitdguardian. Take a look at the Midtguardia thread in Military Models if your interested, where the discussions may be more appropriate regarding the forum topic