Help needed: current use of T-34's

[Falstaff]

Dear folks,

while the use of T-34 tanks during WW2 and the 50's is well documented and some good sources can be found for operational use of this tank until 1973 in the middle east, despite intensive research I couldn't find anything about the current use of it apart from that one T-34 obviously was used in 1995 in Bosnia in an attack on UN troops and a foggy statement saying that in 1996, at least 27 countries had some of them in service.
I would be very grateful if somebody could provide me with sources (german or english, online or offline, or a contact adress) about the use of soviet as well as chinese-built T-34 tanks for military purposes after 1973 and, most important, at present. And, very important too, have there been upgrades to it after 1969? Perhaps you live in a country that still uses this legendary machine and can provide pictures or more?

Thanks in advance
Falstaff

[Feanor]

North Korea allegedly still operates some. Though it's unclear whether they're operational or sitting in depots.

[Tavarisch]

Not likely, those things are way too outdated. They are probably in depots, like Feanor suggests or, traditionally, they could be used for parades. Russia had one May 8th Parade with a T-34. (I forgot which particular year, but I do remember there were T80s on ground as well.)

Some 27 countries operated them until 1996. Believe it or not, people actually buy those things for private reasons. (Wikipedia states that one can cost between 20,000 USD to 40,000 USD)

[eckherl]

Dear folks,

while the use of T-34 tanks during WW2 and the 50's is well documented and some good sources can be found for operational use of this tank until 1973 in the middle east, despite intensive research I couldn't find anything about the current use of it apart from that one T-34 obviously was used in 1995 in Bosnia in an attack on UN troops and a foggy statement saying that in 1996, at least 27 countries had some of them in service.
I would be very grateful if somebody could provide me with sources (german or english, online or offline, or a contact adress) about the use of soviet as well as chinese-built T-34 tanks for military purposes after 1973 and, most important, at present. And, very important too, have there been upgrades to it after 1969? Perhaps you live in a country that still uses this legendary machine and can provide pictures or more?

Thanks in advance
Falstaff

Research Cuba, they still have T-34/85s active in service. Also Egypt and Syria modified bunches of them to SPH haulers for 122mm, these are most likely still used for reserve units.

[Kosovo=Serbia]

My friend (M-2001 gunner) shoot at it every day , army use them for target practicing

[Falstaff]

Not likely, those things are way too outdated.

That would be a shame as in my article on the current military use of T-34 I would have to say "there is none".

However, although my research so far isn't exactly encouraging, I still think there must be some out there. I think a T-34 in working order might still be useful to keep civilians in line and make some huts shake in some african civil war.
Yes, it is outdated. But it is also very rugged, built to be maintained with a hammer and a sickle (;)) and its engine will run on everything that has a slight resemblance to diesel. It is basically an all-terrain-vehicle with a big gun.
If I were an african dictator or war lord and I had some of these in working condition, why not use them, and if only to strengthen a roadblock against MG-equipped pick-up trucks. Africa is full of antique armour and arty pieces.
E.g., as of 2004 the military of somaliland had some left in active service. And I guess they were used there, I just can't find anything about it.

So, if by any chance you're an african dictator or warlord, please contact me.

@eckherl & Feanor: Thanks for your replies, yes, both Cuba and North Korea list them as active (300 and 250 respectively). However, I can't find information on how they are employed and in what condition they are.

The T-34's upgrade history in the Middle East is impressive, they made a lot of things out of this tank, from SPH to tank destroyers. I would imagine that even these days, there are upgrades, perhaps on an individual vehicle basis, as many parts are interchangable with the T-54/55/Type 59.

[nikola_281]

Hey Falstaff,

the T-34's (as a combat unit) were used by the Yugoslav People's Army in 1991 for the siege of Dubrovnik. They were of a size of a tank platoon and they were coming from Podgorica (capital of Montenegro). Later on the T-34's were augmented by the T-55's (I can't remember from where those guys came).

While the T-34's were approaching Dubrovnik they were going in column as the configuration of terrain didn't allow them to spread out. Somewhere near Dubrovnik first tank was hit and the column was stuck there for some time (until they managed to pull out the crew and remove the tank from the road). That tank was most probably hit by an M80 "Zolja" (Yugoslav made 64 mm RPG which is similar to the Soviet RPG-18). All of the crew were injured.

Regards

[Feanor]

You won't find anything reliable on the DPRK military. I've looked quite a bit, and the internet is empty. So unless you can find sattelite pics, I'm guessing we will never know.

[eckherl]

You won't find anything reliable on the DPRK military. I've looked quite a bit, and the internet is empty. So unless you can find sattelite pics, I'm guessing we will never know.

Nope, they do not call them a secretive state for nothing, but they still have them in accordance with U.S and ROK military channels but they most likely are for the reserve type units, they do not throw anything away.

[Feanor]

Nope, they do not call them a secretive state for nothing, but they still have them in accordance with U.S and ROK military channels but they most likely are for the reserve type units, they do not throw anything away.

They still don't have enough APCs to outfit their regular infantry units. :rolleyes: Honestly their military makes so little sense militarily, that it makes me wonder whether they actually expect to ever have to use it.

[eckherl]

They still don't have enough APCs to outfit their regular infantry units. :rolleyes: Honestly their military makes so little sense militarily, that it makes me wonder whether they actually expect to ever have to use it.

Yea they are really old school, military training for them starts with everyone as soon as they get to elementry school, they are trained at a very young age to use SKS and AK-47 rifles with the mind set to kill Americans. Military infrastructure and vehicles are really in sad shape and they played the nuke trump card to keep everyone at bay I suspect.

[F-15 Eagle]

North Korea still uses Mig-17s,19s, 21s and 23s. The only modern fighter is the Mig-29 but only 40 are in use I think and those are not even the new ones just the old ones from the 80s.

Seriously why Mig-17s and 19s? What use could they have?:onfloorl:

And its not just their Air Force its their entire military not only do they have out dated and obsolete weapons but they have very little fuel, spare parts and very poor training. The 1 million men in their military probably only get one meal a day for food so their probably not even in fighting condition because their starving for God's sakes!

South Korea's 600,000 or so strong military could wipe them out in just a few weeks because the North still plains for the old Cold War style military doctrine.

[Feanor]

From what I can gather the food shortage is over.

I don't think they can deliver their nukes. I'd use them as nuclear landmines rather then as conventional nuclear bombs.

[kato]

Seriously why Mig-17s and 19s? What use could they have?:onfloorl:

China is tinkering with the possibility of using them as drone "cruise missiles" essentially.

[Feanor]

They use MiG-17s and MiG-19s because they probably can't replace them with anything more modern.

[Falstaff]

Hey Falstaff,

the T-34's (as a combat unit) were used by the Yugoslav People's Army in 1991 for the siege of Dubrovnik. They were of a size of a tank platoon and they were coming from Podgorica (capital of Montenegro). Later on the T-34's were augmented by the T-55's (I can't remember from where those guys came).

While the T-34's were approaching Dubrovnik they were going in column as the configuration of terrain didn't allow them to spread out. Somewhere near Dubrovnik first tank was hit and the column was stuck there for some time (until they managed to pull out the crew and remove the tank from the road). That tank was most probably hit by an M80 "Zolja" (Yugoslav made 64 mm RPG which is similar to the Soviet RPG-18). All of the crew were injured.

Regards

Nikola,

thank you,
that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Do you know if there are any available reports or books about it?


@eckherl:
I know you were a tanker over in South Korea, have you been briefed you might be facing T-34's?

[eckherl]

Nikola,

thank you,
that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Do you know if there are any available reports or books about it?


@eckherl:
I know you were a tanker over in South Korea, have you been briefed you might be facing T-34's?

I have attended OPFOR briefings that T-34/85s were in storage, we could only speculate that they would of been given to reserve type units. Also they still manufacture 85mm ammunition for their Type 63 and T-85 light tanks.

[eckherl]

North Korea still uses Mig-17s,19s, 21s and 23s. The only modern fighter is the Mig-29 but only 40 are in use I think and those are not even the new ones just the old ones from the 80s.

Seriously why Mig-17s and 19s? What use could they have?:onfloorl:

And its not just their Air Force its their entire military not only do they have out dated and obsolete weapons but they have very little fuel, spare parts and very poor training. The 1 million men in their military probably only get one meal a day for food so their probably not even in fighting condition because their starving for God's sakes!

South Korea's 600,000 or so strong military could wipe them out in just a few weeks because the North still plains for the old Cold War style military doctrine.

One question I would like to ask you, if around 85% of their artillery is massed around the DMZ and at condition red how does ROK handle this without getting their capital wiped off the face of the earth. Also who ever stated that their active military recieves one meal a day.

[eckherl]

From what I can gather the food shortage is over.

I don't think they can deliver their nukes. I'd use them as nuclear landmines rather then as conventional nuclear bombs.

I can only hope that they do not have the means to deliver them effectively, but the nuke issue is something that ROK or the U.S is will to take any risk on especially with them working with Iran inregards to rocket technology.

[Beatmaster]

i do not know or this is the right information but take a look:

T-34 Tank
The T 34 battle tank was the mainstay of the Soviet tank armies throughout the Second World War and the most important tank produced during that conflict.

Created in 1939, the T 34 design aimed at mechanical simplicity and an ease of manufacture in large quantities. Production began in June 1940. Between 1941 and 1945, 39,698 were built which comprised 68% of Soviet tank output. The new tank was fast, with a top speed of 32 mph, strongly-armed and benefited from well-sloped protective armour which had a maximum thickness of 3.5 inches (100mm).Its diesel engine gave it greater range than its German counterparts, a vital factor in the vastness of Russia.

In action from the end of 1941, the T 34 played crucial roles in the encirclement of the German 6th Army at Stalingrad in 1942-3 and the Battle of Kursk in 1943, eventually coming to dominate the war on the Eastern Front. From the end of 1943 onwards, the T 34 was re-armed with an 85mm gun mounted in a redesigned turret, thicker armour and an extra crew member (commander, gunner, loader, driver & hull gunner).

Production of the T 34/85, of which this is an example, continued until 1964 and totalled 12,000, with many being supplied to Warsaw Pact countries and their allies. It served in the Korean War and the Arab-Israeli Wars until 1973.

This is a Quote from a English book, Hope this helps

[F-15 Eagle]

They use MiG-17s and MiG-19s because they probably can't replace them with anything more modern.

They can do what everyone else does and buy new Su-30s from Russia, I'm sure they will sell them after all they let Iran buy them why not North Korea?

One question I would like to ask you, if around 85% of their artillery is massed around the DMZ and at condition red how does ROK handle this without getting their capital wiped off the face of the earth. Also who ever stated that their active military recieves one meal a day.

The ROK has a very powerful air force and their army has much better tanks and artillery. Not as big in numbers but much more advanced and modern. Plus I doubt more than 10% of their artillery is operational at any given time and those are out dated from the late 50s and early 60s.

[eckherl]

They can do what everyone else does and buy new Su-30s from Russia, I'm sure they will sell them after all they let Iran buy them why not North Korea?



The ROK has a very powerful air force and their army has much better tanks and artillery. Not as big in numbers but much more advanced and modern. Plus I doubt more than 10% of their artillery is operational at any given time and those are out dated from the late 50s and early 60s.

What does ROK capabilities have anything to do with what I asked you, everyone knows how much advancements in war fighting technologies that they have, my question was what do you do with the artillery that is already massed along the DMZ pointing to the south, speculating that only 10% of it is operational could be a fatal error on your part along with the average North Korean soldier eats only one meal a day and is starving to death. There is a big reason why the ROK and U.S would just rather leave them alone.

[Feanor]

They can do what everyone else does and buy new Su-30s from Russia, I'm sure they will sell them after all they let Iran buy them why not North Korea?

Well lets see.... how much money would it cost? ;) And Iran did not buy ANY Su-30 from Russia. If you're referencing the Jerusalem Post article about a ~200 Su-30 deal with Iran, they're full of sh*t.

The ROK has a very powerful air force and their army has much better tanks and artillery. Not as big in numbers but much more advanced and modern. Plus I doubt more than 10% of their artillery is operational at any given time and those are out dated from the late 50s and early 60s.

The question here is what to do with large numbers of WWII level unguided artillery pieces. Why do you think they're inoperable? They're simple to maintain, don't require anything advanced to keep them running, and don't need any real targetting systems given the quantities we're talking about.

[Crunchy]

Currently Vietnamese People's Army uses the remaining T-34s as targets for exercises.

[nikola_281]

Nikola,

thank you,
that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Do you know if there are any available reports or books about it?



You are very welcome Falstaff, but you are fishing in the dark here. You will hardly find any credible source for this one and many other events that occurred during that war.

Let's start with those tanks from Podgorica. The army (mainly reserve units) were sent to Dubrovnik with support of the prime minister who has been the biggest supporter of Slobodan Milosevic and his politics. Later on the same guy who is still the prime minister (imagine that, this happens still in Europe) changes his POV and tends to become a very good friend of Croatians and almost everything (I mean here on the more detailed events) that has happened there has never been published and will hardly ever be.
BTW, beside that RPG ambush and loss of one tank that platoon didn't encounter any serious resistance during their mission.

The T-34's were used in the Yugoslav People's Army until 80's when the Army started to put them in reserve. Some of those retired T-34's were used to form independent battalions and platoons intended to protect airports and strategically important locations. As soon as the war broke out the T-34's were again reactivated and engaged into actions. They were mainly used as infantry support units or for a stationary fire support. Because of their poor armour thin sheet metal plates were mounted to enhance their protection. But in reality, as there was a lack of those metal plates the crews were mounting anything that could have enhanced their protection (wheel tires, wood, sandbags, empty ammo boxes...). The T-34's were too old and they couldn't endure this war and most of them were quickly retired.

During their withdrawal from Kosovo in 1999, armoured units of Yugoslav Army left one specially modified T-34 that served as an engineer vehicle. It's not known if that T-34 was used to fit its purpose or was just left on the field as a target (decoy) for the NATO jets.

Regards

[lancejackCF]

the taliban operated anything they could get their hands on in 2001 including t34-85s they were probably destroyed before they even reached the frontlines though

[eckherl]

the taliban operated anything they could get their hands on in 2001 including t34-85s they were probably destroyed before they even reached the frontlines though

Really, that is a first for me, are you sure that they were not T-55 and T-62 tanks.

[lancejackCF]

Really, that is a first for me, are you sure that they were not T-55 and T-62 tanks.

serving family member told me hes not 1 2 exaggerate he was operating around Kabul before it fell 2 NA i was suprised maybe he meant a variant of some sort but still

[lancejackCF]

on earlier posts the KPA isnt exactly modern but they still have enough material, personnel and defenses to give the ROK a run for their money, with massive american support its a different story, like feanor said u dont need targeting systems if u have such huge(i honestly don t kno the number) amount of fire (rockets systems and guns) on such a relatively small piece of frontage, the mig 17s 19s r all 4 ground attack - not effective but eventually some will get through

[kato]

T-34 in the East-German Army (KVP and NVA):

T-34/76:
- received starting around 1953 for KVP, used (about 220 units?)
- most (all?) units transferred to NVA 1956
- likely phased out 1958-1960
- at least 156 chassis rebuilt to T-34T, remainder probably sold

SU-85:
- received around 1953 for KVP, used (46 units); also several dozen SU-100, no clue where they ended up
- phased out 1958
- all chassis rebuilt to T-34T/TB (SFL)

T-34/85:
- acquired likely 1953: 360 used units for KVP; 1955-56: 280 units from Polish production for KVP; from 1956: 600 used units for NVA (all used units: from USSR)
- most KVP units transferred to NVA, around 70 units retained for border troops
- phased out from general service around 1969-1970
- retained for border troops until ~1985
- about half of border troop units put in storage then, 33 units scrapped in 1989/90

T-34T armored tractor / T-34TB armored salvage tractors:
- not identical to Soviet SPK-5 and WW2 T-34T/TT-34
- rebuilt from T-34/76 and SU-85 (SFL) chassis 1959-1962 (202 units total)
- phased out from general service around 1970
- about 60-80 units stowed in two new reserve "salvage battalions"
- "salvage battalions" dissolved 1989
- all units sold for civilian use or scrapped in 1989/1990

---------------------------------------------------------

Austrian T-34:

- 37 units (all T-34/85) taken over from USSR in 1955
- 19 units put in fixed positions in early 70s
- fixed positions consisted of the complete tank in a concrete bunker (not just the turret, like done with Centurions)
- last unit removed from fixed position October 2007 (!!) - [pic] (http://www.bmlv.gv.at/images_skaliert/11503-2007d_bp_637x471_1237310415.jpg)

[FutureTank]

Currently Vietnamese People's Army uses the remaining T-34s as targets for exercises.

And not only for targets. Someone I used to know saw some from a car at a training base 4 years ago. They were sitting under covers painted in fresh glaringly green paint with something written on the turrets and huge white numbers on them (full turret height). When he asked a guide, he was told this is the parade training unit! This guy reckoned there were at least 3-4 rows of sheds with maybe a dozen spaces each, but he could not tell if they were all with a T-34/85 in them because all he could see was the 3-4 of the end sheds. They even had edges of everything painted in white like the Soviet Army used to for Victory parades in the Red Square.

[Crunchy]

And not only for targets. Someone I used to know saw some from a car at a training base 4 years ago. They were sitting under covers painted in fresh glaringly green paint with something written on the turrets and huge white numbers on them (full turret height). When he asked a guide, he was told this is the parade training unit! This guy reckoned there were at least 3-4 rows of sheds with maybe a dozen spaces each, but he could not tell if they were all with a T-34/85 in them because all he could see was the 3-4 of the end sheds. They even had edges of everything painted in white like the Soviet Army used to for Victory parades in the Red Square.

Sorry,but if forum-members check around the mil sites in the last few weeks you will see that the T-55s are going through upgrades, while the few T72 are reserved for best units. There are no T34/85 in active service.
But usually Vietnamese military parades include some "historic components/gear", so what is mentioned, might be those units, which are kept in "proper" condition for some parades, but not for service.