Nuclear Subs for India

[dragonfire]

Indian Navy has projected a need for 10-12 nuclear powered subs in the next 10 years. India has an announced "no first strike" policy in terms of a nuclear conflict. The most widely accepted second strike platforms are the nuclear tipped missiles launched from a submerged or otherwise deployed nuclear powered submarine. India clearly lacks in this respect having not even a single nuc-sub currently deployed. In this light I would like to invite discussions on the needs for nuclear subs for india, discussions can revolve around numbers, classes for acquisition, missiles for delivering effective retaliatory strikes, sub required vs. not required debates, reactor details and discussions etc

Would request Mod checks in order to prevent uncessary posting which could result in thread shut down, preferably posts which dont adhere can be removed than the shut down of healthy discussions

[Feanor]

Where has India stated the need for 10-12 subs? Please post an MoD/DoD source.

[Bang-Bang]

As this thread is to discuss the IN subs , Here i got something

How viable is a surgery which requires a healthy patient to be in a hospital bed for one-third of his life? That is the approximate analogy for the mid-life upgrade for this submarine INS Sindhukirti, the Dry Dock Queen. Four submarines are stuck in such protracted upgrades. Not surprisingly, just nobody is accountable .

During An interview to News Channel CNN IBN7 Admiral Suresh Mehta Said That 48% Subs of IN are in dry dock to repair .

New Delhi: Over-emphasis on indigenous work is hurting India's readiness for war.

As India's vital submarine arm struggles with dangerously low numbers, a top-end submarine has been taken out of the fleet for a repair programme.

The shocking revelations of the report were:

Only seven of India's 16 submarines are available for combat at any time.

10 of these 16 ageing submarines will be due for phase-out by 2012.

To maintain current numbers, one submarine needs to be inducted every two years but there's been no addition since 2001.

India's only submarine-making facility in Mumbai was kept idle for 12 years.


http://ibnlive.in.com/news/are-we-battle-ready-navys-submarine-repair-costs-india-maritime-security/82616-3.html .

[dragonfire]

Where has India stated the need for 10-12 subs? Please post an MoD/DoD source.

Couldnt find an exact MoD/DoD source - but the point has been stated in several articles, 3 of which i have posted below


http://www.idrw.org/2008/12/16/russia_likely_to_lease_shchukab_class_nuke_subs_to _india.html

http://defense-technologynews.blogspot.com/2008/12/russia-offers-to-lease-india-several.html

There is one more link from *************.com - but its not showing correctly - wonder why ? in case u need to refer its the site and then /reports-4110



Also would advise you to visit the link bang bang mentioned above, it shows a glaring inavailability of subs (only 7 are available, one sub will take 10 yrs to refit etc) in the IN

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/are-we-ba...y/82616-3.html .

[Bang-Bang]

Well so its seems that IN is really desprate to have some good nuc powerd subs , I also posted a thread earlier : Russia to Lease Shchuka-B Class Submarines to India (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8541).

The Russian offer comes as Indian Navy has formulated a 20 year plan to produce indigenously 24 conventional submarines. New Delhi had also contracted for two nuclear submarines from Moscow, but navy has projected that in the next 10 years India would need to acquire or build another 10-12 nuclear subs. These nuclear submarines would be similar to the 'Nerpa'class, which was involved in an accident in November during final sea trials in Sea of Japan.

As one of Russian official said " Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class " .

Several :D intresting :unknown


i also want to know that how many years a sub take to ready for service .

[dragonfire]

Well so its seems that IN is really desprate to have some good nuc powerd subs , I also posted a thread earlier : Russia to Lease Shchuka-B Class Submarines to India (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8541).

The Russian offer comes as Indian Navy has formulated a 20 year plan to produce indigenously 24 conventional submarines. New Delhi had also contracted for two nuclear submarines from Moscow, but navy has projected that in the next 10 years India would need to acquire or build another 10-12 nuclear subs. These nuclear submarines would be similar to the 'Nerpa'class, which was involved in an accident in November during final sea trials in Sea of Japan.

As one of Russian official said " Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class " .

Several :D intresting :unknown


i also want to know that how many years a sub take to ready for service .

Well i think the leasing is for 3 subs - NATO designate AKULA-II class attack subs with an option of buying them at the end of the 10 year lease period. ATV program is for anywhere between 3-5 subs. So that takes care of about 6-8 nuc-subs.

This is what I think Indian nuc-sub inventory should look like in 10-15 years

Nuclear Subs -

SSBN - 6

SSN - 9

SSGN - 3 (we will need long range cruise missiles for tht)

Tactical Subs

India should have submersibles (2man-16man) may be 12-18 for spec ops - its reported they already have Cosmos CE-2F/X100 for the MARCOS teams

Conventional Powered

The existing subs are going to go including the Sindhugosh class, the newer ones will serve for some more time (only about 4-5), the foxtrot and Shishumar class will be retired

There is an order for 6 scorpenes and an evaluation process in on for ordering 6 more (HDW will probably win this one) under project 75 - That makes 12

So that constitutes about 16-17 subs and as such the plan is for 24 subs which means another 7-8 should be ordered or built (wonder why there is no domestic conventional sub building program - design to delivery - indegenious, one would assume sub building of conventional nature would help in assimilating knowledge for building nuc-subs)

To answer your last question - India has been planning and not yet delivered the ATV - it started 20 yrs ago, however first time players (china and India do take more time owing to the complexity of the deal)

[dragonfire]

yesterday i saw a video on you tube which was featuring spec ops forces of india - namely the MARCOS and sone desert commando / spec force. It featured the Cosmos CE-2F/X100 (it looks so non lethal in bright green color) and it wasnt looking like an ideal platform for spec ops either - it can only carry 2 ppl and it is not an enclosed sub which means shorter range beacuse of the oxygen capacity for the team (tanks). what would be an ideal platform for a spec ops forces wrt to submersibiles and midget subs - read somewhere that the SEALs has a 16+2 man capable vehicle called ASDS (Advanced Seal Delivery System) which sounds like a paltform capable of inserting a small strike team

Maybe India should develop or procure something like that instead of 2 man submersibiles

come to think of it Cocaine smugglers use bigger submersible - he he - pls dont trash me

[dragonfire]

Brazil has inked a deal with DCN for building scorpenes and one of which will be a nuc-powered sub, for which the "non-nuclear" part of the sub will be built by france, perhaps india should look at this program as a model, it already has miniature reactor program for its ATV project and it is already building scorpenes. Bingo - new domestic nuc-sub program to accelerate speedier acquisition of nuc-subs - although at about 60-70 mts length it sounds like a small platform for a modern nuke sub

[kev 99]

This is what I think Indian nuc-sub inventory should look like in 10-15 years

Nuclear Subs -

SSBN - 6

SSN - 9

SSGN - 3 (we will need long range cruise missiles for tht)

Even if you include the 3 Russian subs in that list you are still looking at building 15 Nuclear subs in 15 years when India has not even built one previously, there's no way that is achievable.

[harryriedl]

Even if you include the 3 Russian subs in that list you are still looking at building 15 Nuclear subs in 15 years when India has not even built one previously, there's no way that is achievable.
when it takes most nations to build one in 5 years
for example Los Angeles (SSN-688) was ordered in 1971 and was commissioned in 1976
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Los_Angeles_(SSN-688)

USS Virgina was ordered in 1999 and commissioned in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Virginia_(SSN-774)
a UK an example HMS Trafalgar was ordered in 1977 and wasn't commissioned till 1983

the French took a similarly long time to build an SSN
as Rubis (their 1st vessel) was ordered 1977 wasn't commissioned till 1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubis_(S_601)
Akula class Vepr was also built in 5 year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_K-157_Vepr

You couldn't build 15 nuke subs in 15 years especialy if you haven't even built your own SSK its not doable not even the cold war superpowers(of a single class in a single yard) could achieve that a SSN a year.

[Feanor]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.

[harryriedl]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.
curious would the Russian sell 6 SSN or SSGN I can't imagine them wanting to sell so many unless it was 6 of death traps which have been decommissioned for decades

[kev 99]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.

But then that would require the Russians to build them, do they even have the capacity to do that in the timescale involved? even if they sold old ones to India they would have to build replacements one a 1 for 1 basis or face an overall reduction in numbers.

[Feanor]

But then that would require the Russians to build them, do they even have the capacity to do that in the timescale involved? even if they sold old ones to India they would have to build replacements one a 1 for 1 basis or face an overall reduction in numbers.

6 submarines over 10 years? I would think it's possible. Not cheap, but definetly possible.

[dragonfire]

Guys, India already has an ATV project which is supposed to deliver btw 5-6 nuc-subs, 2 akula-II's will be leased and then probably acquired (after lease terms of 10 yrs). So that gives us plans in place already for 7-9 subs within the time frame as such right.

So then what is pending is about 7-8 subs. now in my earlier post i wrote how an indian scorpene can be designed to accomadate a nuc-reactor, given tht this would be small sub it still is a nuc sub, at a lower end of one such sub tht leaves a gap of 6-7 subs

Now for this 6-7 subs one could approach, russia, french or the US

am sure 6-7 subs in 12-14 yrs is doable

[kev 99]

6 submarines over 10 years? I would think it's possible. Not cheap, but definetly possible.

Depends how many yards Russia has left able to build Nuclear subs really.

Dragonfire - Indian ATV project delivering 5 - 6 subs in 15 years? I would be amazed if it could deliver that after not building a single nuclear sub before, if you don't believe me look into the problems involved in the Astute class caused by the UK not ordering any nuclear subs for years

Your numbers seem to have come down from 18 boats to up to 15 (5 - 6 ATV, 2 Russian leased and 6 to 7 from elsewhere).

[dragonfire]

Depends how many yards Russia has left able to build Nuclear subs really.

Dragonfire - Indian ATV project delivering 5 - 6 subs in 15 years? I would be amazed if it could deliver that after not building a single nuclear sub before, if you don't believe me look into the problems involved in the Astute class caused by the UK not ordering any nuclear subs for years

Your numbers seem to have come down from 18 boats to up to 15 (5 - 6 ATV, 2 Russian leased and 6 to 7 from elsewhere).


Good Point - wrong math by me - head bang, head bang lol

ATV - 5-6
Akula - 2
Total - 7-8

Proposed
Scorpenes nuc-subs ala brazil - 1 / 2

Other subs - 6-8

Total - 14 to 18 subs

Besides which there could be a possibility tht India can develop a newer class from the ATV project and the SSGNs could be acquired

To partly solve some probs in russian manufacture - how about India acquiring some ownership rights in those companies - Indian companies like HAL etc through a SPV could buy into the new aircraft manufacturing corp as well as some shipyards - it could prevent the probs with groshkov from rcurring and also give rusian additional funds, besides which indians can do a better job at marketing stuff to non-traditional customers of russian armaments

[harryriedl]

at this rate their be lucky to get any
Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-to-india.html

interesting to see if this is another issue with Russia over defense

[SkolZkiy]

Strange, after the incident on Nerpa RuOfficials said that this sub would be included into RuNAVY and won't be leased to India.
About Gorshkov - India has already agreed to pay more.

[kev 99]

Strange, after the incident on Nerpa RuOfficials said that this sub would be included into RuNAVY and won't be leased to India.
About Gorshkov - India has already agreed to pay more.

Everything I see in the press about Russian arms sales or about Russian military seems to get contradicted almost immediately, Nerpa going to India then not, then never was going to India, Russian naval bases being built in friendly nations like Lybia, then this is denied then reported again.

[gf0012-aust]

again, my comments about significant shifts between India and Russia due to procurement difficulties on current programs is being reinforced with each month.

my sources within IG are stating that it's becoming more noticeable that they will be unable to meet their new force design objectives via Russia. Western builders have quietly been approached and I know of at least two where backdoor negotiations were initiated a year ago - and are now becoming more important.

The supplier-buyer matrix is changing....

----------------------------------------------------------------

Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

(Source: ddi Indian government news; issued Jan. 21, 2009)

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.

[tphuang]

again, my comments about significant shifts between India and Russia due to procurement difficulties on current programs is being reinforced with each month.

my sources within IG are stating that it's becoming more noticeable that they will be unable to meet their new force design objectives via Russia. Western builders have quietly been approached and I know of at least two where backdoor negotiations were initiated a year ago - and are now becoming more important.

The supplier-buyer matrix is changing....

----------------------------------------------------------------

Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

(Source: ddi Indian government news; issued Jan. 21, 2009)

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.
which Western shipbuilder would be allowed to build nuclear subs for India though? Or are you referring to carrier here, which is sort of expected.

[gf0012-aust]

which Western shipbuilder would be allowed to build nuclear subs for India though?

I can't see any western power except France doing it.

[kay_man]

I can't see any western power except France doing it.

Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.
India has already built 1 ATV and will buld more.
Also it is licence producing Scorpenes.
So i believe from here on India could do with tech inputs rather than the buying the whole sub.:confused:

[gf0012-aust]

Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.

It's a technology issue - India does not have any exposure or experience in acoustic management.

a sub without decent signal management is - "just a sub"

[dragonfire]

Well i dont see why any western power has to build nuclear subs for India.
India has already built 1 ATV and will buld more.
Also it is licence producing Scorpenes.
So i believe from here on India could do with tech inputs rather than the buying the whole sub.:confused:

Apart from the ATV project India has not built any submarine by itself (and the ATV is not complete yet) not even conventional subs, only licensed production of a couple of HDW 209/1500 Shishumar class subs and the current Scorpene production. Bottom Line is India needs subs and it should excercise all options for it

[kay_man]

Apart from the ATV project India has not built any submarine by itself (and the ATV is not complete yet) not even conventional subs, only licensed production of a couple of HDW 209/1500 Shishumar class subs and the current Scorpene production. Bottom Line is India needs subs and it should excercise all options for it

the thing is that i dont think you can sell or buy a nuke sub.
you can rent one i guess and develop one but not buy.

[funtz]

The only way to do it is to do it and keep on improving as you do it.

As far as the nuclear sub is concerened, developing them, constant improvment and coming out with successive generations is going to lake a long long time, otherwise we will keep on paying the russians/french/americans etc. of second hand/dumbed down technology.

[dragonfire]

the thing is that i dont think you can sell or buy a nuke sub.
you can rent one i guess and develop one but not buy.

Is this part of some treaty which prevents technology being sold to other states, if so pl mention which treaty/ agreement/ arangement/ this is covered under

[dragonfire]

It's a technology issue - India does not have any exposure or experience in acoustic management.

a sub without decent signal management is - "just a sub"

gf0012-aust: could you pl point me to some online reading material about this - would like to know more, also how would you rate the PLAN and PN in the same aspects

Also is there any restriction on sale of nuclear submarines by nuc powers

[lalitghag]

Name: Advanced Technology Vessel
Builders: Shipbuilding Centre (SBC), Vishakapatnam
Operators: Naval flag of India Indian Navy
In commission: 2010 (est.)
Building: 3
Planned: 6
Completed: 0
Active: 0
General characteristics
Type: SSBN
Displacement: 5,500 – 6,500 tons (Est.)
Length: 104m (341.2ft) (Est.)
Beam: 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft: 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Propulsion: Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 40% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed: 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement: 100
Sensors and
processing systems: USHUS Sonar
Armament: 12 * Sagarika
or 4 * Agni-III (Under development)

[dragonfire]

Name: Advanced Technology Vessel
Builders: Shipbuilding Centre (SBC), Vishakapatnam
Operators: Naval flag of India Indian Navy
In commission: 2010 (est.)
Building: 3
Planned: 6
Completed: 0
Active: 0
General characteristics
Type: SSBN
Displacement: 5,500 – 6,500 tons (Est.)
Length: 104m (341.2ft) (Est.)
Beam: 15m (49.2ft) (Est.)
Draft: 9m (29.5ft) (Est.)
Propulsion: Nuclear: one pressurized water reactor (PWR) using 40% enriched uranium fuel (160-190MW); one turbine (47,000hp/70MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller. (Est.)
Speed: 12-15 (surfaced) 30-34 (submerged). (Est.)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (984.2ft). (Est.)
Complement: 100
Sensors and
processing systems: USHUS Sonar
Armament: 12 * Sagarika
or 4 * Agni-III (Under development)

Only one ATV is under construction - the ATV once commisioned may even become only a technological demonstrator, however the govt is planning 5-6 of them, i hope they change the design a bit after the first 3 a bit longer, stealthier, with a better power plant for which the re-fueling requirments should be after longer periods

[dragonfire]

News Update

'India's secret N-submarine project nearing completion'
12 Feb 2009, 0346 hrs IST

In a boost to India's long-standing aim to have "a nuclear weapon triad", defence minister A K Antony on Wednesday said the secretive
programme to construct indigenous nuclear submarines was on the verge of completion now.

"Things are in the final stage now in the ATV (advanced technology vessel) project. There were bottlenecks earlier...they are over now," said Antony, during the ongoing Aero India-2009 here.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Indias-nuke-submarine-is-in-final-stages-Antony/articleshow/4114292.cms

--

Well the article goes on to state tht there are 3 nuc-subs being constructed now, so i would be wrong in my earlier posts. Good news is the Defense Minister's statements about how the problem areas have been resolved, could be interpreted that the subs will get into the trials without any further delays.

My only concern was the projected completion date of 2025 if the first hull has been integrated with the Miniaturised Reactor it leaves about 16 years for the rest four which averages out to 4 yrs, but the report talks about three subs undergoing construction which means simultaneous efforts - makes one wonder....

The cost factor also looked good at 14K crore (@ 40/dollar it's 3.5 Billion USD) for 5 subs. Yeah the report says 5 subs - all SSBNs. I hope they develop a longer range variant of the Project K-15 sagarika SLBM though as a the primary second strike nuclear deterrent

[dragonfire]

Russia's Nerpa nuclear sub starts sea trials in Far East

VLADIVOSTOK, July 31 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Nerpa nuclear attack submarine, damaged in a fatal accident during tests in November last year, started on Friday the second stage of new sea trials, a source involved in the tests said.

The vessel resumed sea trials on July 10 in the Sea of Japan following extensive repairs. The first stage of new sea trials was successfully completed on Monday.

"The submarine left dock at the Vostok repair facility in the town of Bolshoy Kamen in the Primorye Territory and headed for the Sea of Japan," the source said.

Russia's Nerpa nuclear sub starts sea trials in Far East | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire (http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090731/155684564.html)
-
The sea trials of the future IN INS Chakra has started and this after the on-board disaster of Nov'08 comes as a welcome relief for IN - as this will look better for it's Russian collaboration. Also the first operational nuc-sub in this century for IN would be the INS Chakra and not the INS Arihant as per the schedule mentioned in the article

[Zaitsev]

Is this part of some treaty which prevents technology being sold to other states, if so pl mention which treaty/ agreement/ arangement/ this is covered under

I dont think it falls into any treaty..hte thing the governments wont let a technology which has been developed with lot of toil and hardwork and research just being sold like that for some money....its like this...do you imagine india to sell its nuclear sub techniology to any country now that it has developed one

[dragonfire]

I dont think it falls into any treaty..hte thing the governments wont let a technology which has been developed with lot of toil and hardwork and research just being sold like that for some money....its like this...do you imagine india to sell its nuclear sub techniology to any country now that it has developed one

The Indian ATV programme itself was in cooperation with Russia. As was evident from the fact that Russian emmisaries were present at the launch cerimonies and the Russians were thanked by the PM. I doubt India will sell it's nuc-sub tech, but perhaps russia would be a better seller anyways, they have the tech and need the money too

[kay_man]

The Indian ATV programme itself was in cooperation with Russia. As was evident from the fact that Russian emmisaries were present at the launch cerimonies and the Russians were thanked by the PM. I doubt India will sell it's nuc-sub tech, but perhaps russia would be a better seller anyways, they have the tech and need the money too

not to mention indian shipbuilders will be busy for many years to come trying to fullfill IN requirements alone.

[dragonfire]

not to mention indian shipbuilders will be busy for many years to come trying to fullfill IN requirements alone.

Oh yeah, with around 35 ships of various sizes being built for the IN - it is definitely good news for the ship builders, also subs are being built - the ATV project's hull is being built by L&T - a new entrant in this space - all together this means a lot for the Learning curve for Indian shipbuilders. Apart from nuc-subs and scorpene subs, stealthy destroyers, frigates and interceptor boats as well as corvettes being bult there is also the Aircraft Carrier being built. Altogether :india

Facilities at MDL, GRSE, Cochin Shiyard, L&T's Gujarat facilities, Goa ship yard are the main players. The exposure will be good for India to eventualy evolve as a cost effective ship building destination

[dragonfire]

Wiki is now stating that India is planning to build a different class of SSBNs which would be longer than the recently launched Arihant Class as well as SSNs which would perform attack and escort duties to the SSBNs. The numbers would be 3 for the new class of SSBNs and 8 for the SSN. The second hull of the Arihant class is under construction, earlier reports suggest a number of 3 for the Arihant class. Which means a total of 6 SSBNs in two classes and 8 SSNs, totaling 14 Nuclear powered Submarines and probably two Russian subs on Lease

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Indian_Navy)

[kay_man]

Wiki is now stating that India is planning to build a different class of SSBNs which would be longer than the recently launched Arihant Class as well as SSNs which would perform attack and escort duties to the SSBNs. The numbers would be 3 for the new class of SSBNs and 8 for the SSN. The second hull of the Arihant class is under construction, earlier reports suggest a number of 3 for the Arihant class. Which means a total of 6 SSBNs in two classes and 8 SSNs, totaling 14 Nuclear powered Submarines and probably two Russian subs on Lease

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Indian_Navy)

This is quite old news.
Although larger SSBNs and nuclear attack subs seem like the next logical step, so for its only speculation. No concrete news on it from any reliable source.

[tphuang]

Wiki is now stating that India is planning to build a different class of SSBNs which would be longer than the recently launched Arihant Class as well as SSNs which would perform attack and escort duties to the SSBNs. The numbers would be 3 for the new class of SSBNs and 8 for the SSN. The second hull of the Arihant class is under construction, earlier reports suggest a number of 3 for the Arihant class. Which means a total of 6 SSBNs in two classes and 8 SSNs, totaling 14 Nuclear powered Submarines and probably two Russian subs on Lease

Ships of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ships_of_the_Indian_Navy)

one step at a time, you just launched the first ever nuclear submarine, which presumably would be more of an experiment class than anything else. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

[funtz]

one step at a time, you just launched the first ever nuclear submarine, which presumably would be more of an experiment class than anything else. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
The main purpose of the Arihant nuclear submarine project is to validate the construction, nuclear propulsion and weapons launch capability as a common prototype.

This capability is to be passed on to separate SSN and SSBN classes which will follow the project.

[dragonfire]

A quick question

As part of the Submarine leasing arrangement - it was decided that two subs which are into 40 - 60% construction completed status would be completed by Russia with India paying for it. The Akula was class of choice and the first one's the Nerpa, can someone comment on which is the second vessel/boat or what is the hull ID

[Seiko]

I think we are leasing only one submarine...I mean is that one of the Russian Govt. guy said??

[Zaitsev]

I think we are leasing only one submarine...I mean is that one of the Russian Govt. guy said??
Yes we are leasing only one from the ruskies...there was great confusion as to how many india was leasing after some source wrote that the ruskies were leasing 2 of the nerpas...its only 1

[Zaitsev]

There is an order for 6 scorpenes and an evaluation process in on for ordering 6 more (HDW will probably win this one) under project 75 - That makes 12

To answer your last question - India has been planning and not yet delivered the ATV - it started 20 yrs ago, however first time players (china and India do take more time owing to the complexity of the deal)

Tell me where did you get the info that there is another project 75 on..as far as i know the project 75 is the scorpene deal...is this a confirmed news that there is evluation going on for new subs..or are you confusing it with the project 76 which is meant to make 6-7 indigenous conventional subs based on the knowledge gained from the scorpene project(Source: Bharat Rakshak)
Btw if really there is any such deal going on and HDW is the likely winner i would be no less pleased if the chosen sub is the type 212....its the best conventional sub in the world today(scorpene comes second)

[Salty Dog]

Tell me where did you get the info that there is another project 75 on..as far as i know the project 75 is the scorpene deal...is this a confirmed news that there is evluation going on for new subs..or are you confusing it with the project 76 which is meant to make 6-7 indigenous conventional subs based on the knowledge gained from the scorpene project(Source: Bharat Rakshak)
Btw if really there is any such deal going on and HDW is the likely winner i would be no less pleased if the chosen sub is the type 212....its the best conventional sub in the world today(scorpene comes second)

There is Project 75 with the six Scorpene and Project 75A for six new generation SSK.

[dragonfire]

I think we are leasing only one submarine...I mean is that one of the Russian Govt. guy said??

Yes we are leasing only one from the ruskies...there was great confusion as to how many india was leasing after some source wrote that the ruskies were leasing 2 of the nerpas...its only 1

The initial plan was to lease two and not one

How can you lease 2 of the Nerpas when the Nerpa is one submarine. Which is why i was asking the forum members if they knew which one was the other one

The plan was to lease two (with an option of acquiring them at the end of the lease period) for ten years. All sources initialy have indicated that the plan was for paying for the completion of two subs the construction of which were frozen by russia due to lack of funds. The subs are the Akula II or Shchuka-B class of subs. The plan could very well be brought down to one as well, as such the plan itself is a very secretive on as far its details are concerned so there is a lot of gaps in the reports. The reason i feel it would be two rather than one is also beacuse 300 Indian submariners are being trained in russia for nuclear submarine operations

[dragonfire]

Tell me where did you get the info that there is another project 75 on..as far as i know the project 75 is the scorpene deal...is this a confirmed news that there is evluation going on for new subs..or are you confusing it with the project 76 which is meant to make 6-7 indigenous conventional subs based on the knowledge gained from the scorpene project(Source: Bharat Rakshak)
Btw if really there is any such deal going on and HDW is the likely winner i would be no less pleased if the chosen sub is the type 212....its the best conventional sub in the world today(scorpene comes second)

There is Project 75 with the six Scorpene and Project 75A for six new generation SSK.

I doubt if there is a Project 76, however different sources have catalogued the plan to acquire 6 more conventional subs under Project 75 A and some other sources as Project 75 B. The main contenders are the HDW 212 and the Russian Amur class. Indian high end engineering giant L&T has thrown its hat into the fray by declaring that it will bid to get the construction contract. This is the same company which built the hull of the INS Arihant and the other two vessels of the same class are undergoing construction in its Hazaria facility.


L&T to bid for Navy's second line of submarines

New Delhi, Sep 29 (PTI) Larsen & Toubro, a private infrastructure development company, today said it will bid for building Navy's second line of conventional submarines, recalling that it had almost won the contract for Amur-class vessels that never took off.

L&T's Chairman and Managing Director A M Naik told reporters here that its shipbuilding facilities in Hazira in Gujarat and Kattupalli near Chennai in Tamil Nadu had capacities to take up construction of all types of warships, including submarines.

"Our shipyards in Hazira and Kattupalli have the capability to take up construction of vessels of about 7,000 to 9,000 tonnage and even warships of the size three or four times these vessels," Naik said.

"We are bidding for the Navy's second line of submarines.

fullstory (http://www.ptinews.com/news/305898_L-T-to-bid-for-Navy-s-second-line-of-submarines#)