Indian Navy - 3 Carriers or more

[tphuang]

From what I know, only if the SSBN is noisy enough that it requires protection. In that case a bastion strategy is used whereby SSNs would be used to sanitise an area and keep it sanitised for the SSBN to operate safely. The western submarines didn't need escorts.

kind of pointless to say that unless you think the first nuclear subs Indian develop are going to be quiet, which I presume you don't. They will be lucky to not have a lot of serious problems with their reactors.


Tell me about it, however the second strike capability is the most crucial one which India needs as a declared no - first use nuc power, and tht is where if a choice was there btw an SSBN and an SSN; India would have choosen to develop a SSBN first

well, it actually makes more sense to get an operational nuclear submarine out first, ballistic or not, continuously improve on the design, make safer nuclear reactors and such. incremental design is helpful.

[dragonfire]

kind of pointless to say that unless you think the first nuclear subs Indian develop are going to be quiet, which I presume you don't. They will be lucky to not have a lot of serious problems with their reactors.

To make comments before the sub is out for trials would be to make assumptions but i read somewhre tht it would use anechonic rubber tiles and tht the reactor would be loaded in a way as to reduce noises as well


well, it actually makes more sense to get an operational nuclear submarine out first, ballistic or not, continuously improve on the design, make safer nuclear reactors and such. incremental design is helpful.

I think th initial plan was a SSN size but then th intention is now a SSBN which is the size of a US SSN :) Infact it has been nicknamed bywesterners as a baby boomer :D

but i guess once the first ATV is tested then further plans can be laid out for construction although one can be confident tht designs would be ready for the CCS approvals

[dragonfire]

News Update

First indigenous aircraft carrier to be built soon
13 Feb 2009, 0415 hrs IST

PANAJI: The keel for India's first indigenous aircraft carrier also known as the air defence ship (ADS) will be laid shortly at Cochin shipyard,
Kerala, said admiral Sureesh Mehta, chief of naval staff.

Speaking at a ceremony in Goa on Thursday, where the Indian Navy took into possession Mhadei', a sail-powered yacht that will be used for solo circumnavigation, Mehta said that the ADS should accommodate 20-odd aircraft.

-

Well I always thought the construction on the first IAC/ADS already started, but apparently not - the Keel will be laid soon. But the good news for the idegenious platform would be tht the aircraft used would also be indegenious in the form of about Naval LCA variants and ALH, it will probably also use the Mig-29Ks & the Ka-31s as well

EDIT:
Launch date is projected at Oct'10 as the construction in terms of modular model is started in terms of fabrication of hull blocks

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Goa/First_indigenous_aircraft_carrier_to_be_built_soon/articleshow/4120905.cms

[Feanor]

It's definetly using the MiG-29K, as India expanded on their original order of 19 by another ~30, do you have info about navalized LCA development?

[funtz]

It's definetly using the MiG-29K, as India expanded on their original order of 19 by another ~30, do you have info about navalized LCA development?
Livefist, mr. Shiv Aroors blog, from last year.

Monday, February 18, 2008
Bumped into Commodore (retd) C.D. Balaji, project director LCA (Navy) this morning at Def Expo's DRDO pavilion. He says that while the fore and aft duselage assemblies of the Naval LCA are almost complete, the mid section of the aircraft will take at least till the the beginning of 2008.

Final integration and fly-out of the first prototype won't happen before late 2009 at an optimistic estimate. Cmde Balaji says there is a huge amount of work ahead on structural reinforcement of the undercarriage, the tail-hook assembly and the landing gear assembly itself.

The programme team is currently waiting for Navy and Cochin Shipyards to freeze the deck design and coordinates of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC).

Once that happens, Goa Shipyards will execute its contract to build a shore-based ski-jump and arrester wire landing platform at Dabolim airport in Goa, where flight tests and pilot training will be conducted. Construction of the landing platform is likely to begin only sometime next year.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/02/lca-navy-update.html


AeroIndia 2009: LCA programme over the hump - 2nd gen to 4+, says ADA director, Dr PS Subramanyam news
06 February 2009

What are the derivatives of LCA?

Seeing the performance of the Technology Demonstrators the Indian Navy and air force have now gained confidence in the aircraft – a confidence that they can move on to higher derivatives of the aircraft.

First, in March 2003, the Navy came forward with an order for a naval variant of the aircraft and decided to fund it.

Subsequently, the air force, realising that there was inadequacy of thrust in the aircraft, asked for a higher derivative of the aircraft with a new engine in the 90 tonnes class. This will be a Mark 2 version of the aircraft and will boast of new electronic warfare tools, reduced weight and improved performance.

The navy has also asked for a Mark 2 variant which will use a very small distance for take off and landing from an aircraft carrier. It will land with an arrestor hook. So, almost four new derivatives are planned – the air force and naval variants, the air force fighter trainer,the navy fighter trainer and Mk 2 versions of these.

This shows the confidence with which the user is placing orders for these derivatives.

Another very important point is that the users are funding the development of these derivatives. This shows we now have a lot of business, which is taking place with user participation.

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20090206_lca_programme.html

DATE:12/02/09
SOURCE:Flight International

AERO INDIA: India unveils plans for LCA 'Mark 2'
By Siva Govindasamy


A naval version of the LCA will fly within a year, although this version of the aircraft still faces numerous challenges, says Baweja.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/12/322472/aero-india-india-unveils-plans-for-lca-mark-2.html

[dragonfire]

I saw a model of the Indegenious Aircraft Carrier and it had a crane next to island, does the Admiral Kuznetsov have such a crane, the two looked so similar like clones, also i was wondering if Kuznetsov featured any AEW&C aircraft -apart from the KA-31 (if at all)

Also wanted to know why IN has opted for the Mig-29 K while the russians and Chinese (for the proposed AC if any - pls not for argument) have opted for the Su-33. Keeping in mind the Kuznetsov and the IAC will be having almost the same displacement and even the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

[funtz]

India’s Quest For An Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
By Admiral Arun Prakash, PVSM, AVSM, VrC, VSM

By now the IN was seriously examining the Russians offer of their 1980s vintage helicopter/VTOL carrier Admiral Gorshkov, and a choice had to be made of a suitable aircraft. The obvious options were the Su-33 (a derivative of the Su-27K selected for operation from the 67,500 ton carrier, Kuznetsov), and the Mig-29K.

An evaluation revealed that both aircraft would meet our operational requirements. The Su-33, though more capable, being dimensionally larger would not only not fit in the smaller hangar of the 44,500 ton Gorshkov, but would have marginal wing-tip clearances from the island structure during deck launch.

It was, therefore, decided that the Mig-29K would equip the Gorshkov, to be renamed INS Vikramaditya, once it entered Indian service.

The downstream impact of this decision was instantly felt by the ADS programme, and a fresh design exercise was initiated to assess the implications of MiG-29K STOBAR operations on the ADS design.

According to the planners, the ship’s basic complement would be a squadron each of MiG-29s and assorted helicopters. The option of operating the upgraded Sea Harriers was also catered for, till the LCA (Navy) received its full operational clearance. The workshops, magazines, deck and lift configurations as well as crew spaces had to be re-worked.

http://www.************************/2008/05/india%E2%80%99s-quest-for-an-indigenous-aircraft-carrier.html

[A.Mookerjee]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?

[funtz]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?
Its not going to be of that displacement.
I don't think big carriers for strike missions is what the navy has in mind or will have in mind for the coming few decades.

The third ship in the class if it is constructed will be an evolution of the first two designs, instead of being a completely new one.

However, that is a long time away, so who knows :confused:

Google: United states shipyards (http://www.google.com/search?q=United+states+shipyards)

[kay_man]

I saw a model of the Indegenious Aircraft Carrier and it had a crane next to island, does the Admiral Kuznetsov have such a crane, the two looked so similar like clones, also i was wondering if Kuznetsov featured any AEW&C aircraft -apart from the KA-31 (if at all)

Also wanted to know why IN has opted for the Mig-29 K while the russians and Chinese (for the proposed AC if any - pls not for argument) have opted for the Su-33. Keeping in mind the Kuznetsov and the IAC will be having almost the same displacement and even the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

the mig-29 is much more evolved and sophisticated than the su-33.
however the su-33 has TVC right? does the TVC help in carrier operation?
can some one shed some light on this.

[dragonfire]

I did not know, that the third Aircraft Carrier was going to be a 70,000 tonnes behemoth. I am aware of the INS Vikramaditya, and the indegenous second Aircraft Carrier being built by the Kochi shipyard. How many shipyards does the United States possess?

Its not going to be of that displacement.
I don't think big carriers for strike missions is what the navy has in mind or will have in mind for the coming few decades.

The third ship in the class if it is constructed will be an evolution of the first two designs, instead of being a completely new one.

However, that is a long time away, so who knows :confused:


Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with atleast two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit.maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it :)

[funtz]

Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with at least two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit. maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it :)


We will have at least two CBGs, supported by long-range fighters and reconnaissance aircraft, modern destroyers and frigates for sea control, apart from submarines and coastal defence elements for sea denial," said Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, in an exclusive interview to TOI.

The Navy chief, however, is not too much worried. "We are monitoring IAC's progress. It should not be delayed beyond 2012. The second IAC is already on the drawing board. At least three IACs are planned," he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Navy_chief_Russia_has_to_honour_Gorshkov_deal_/articleshow/2586598.cms

So, :p:

And there are no credible (or any) reports which quote anyone from the MoD, Indian Navy, or the shipyard which state the size of the second carrier in the region of 60,000T, all the three IACs are supposed to come of the same shipyard, of the same class, identical in size with modifications in design as it matures.

The third IAC is planned to replace the Vikramaditya/ex-Gorshkov,
which was to be a temporary solution filling the gaps (first letting the old carrier retire, then complementing the IACs till all three were operational) between 2007-2020-25, till it turned into the nightmare it is today.

[tonyget]

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8355

NOTICE/WARNING:

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Failure to comply with above follow the same punishment as before = 3 warnings & a week's ban. In addition the thread will also be locked.

[funtz]

Any Russian news reports of this?

Some typos on the report.

MoD and IN was trying to bring the price escalation down to less than 500 million dollars, by rising the quoted price to 700 million it is unlikely that the Gorshkov will be in service anytime soon.

I think this would be the final nail, IN can not get more funds from the government that has already alloted a lot to other programs, the current carrier can not keep on in service, so it looks like till the IAC comes into service, the naval air arm will not take off from a AC.

[Pathfinder-X]

Any Russian news reports of this?

Some typos on the report.

MoD and IN was trying to bring the price escalation down to less than 500 million dollars, by rising the quoted price to 700 million it is unlikely that the Gorshkov will be in service anytime soon.

I think this would be the final nail, IN can not get more funds from the government that has already alloted a lot to other programs, the current carrier can not keep on in service, so it looks like till the IAC comes into service, the naval air arm will not take off from a AC.

I got the news right here. The current cost is 2.9 billion after taking the addition 700 mil price hike in mind. The budget allocated for CVN-76 Ronald Reagan was 4.3 billion, just to give you a perspective. There is no way that kind of money is justified for a second hand carrier. Unfortunately, Russians have a nasty habit of milking their clients like China and India down to the last cent.

On second thought, this is quite a good scheme the Russians have. If India keeps forking up the money, they will keep on milking until the delivery date. Of course, "accidents" can happen that push the delivery date back, thus more milking. If India decided it has had enough and cut its losses, then Russians could simply use the ship themselves, refitted with Indian money. I'm a bit cynical when it comes to Russian business behaviours, so feel free to disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-02-20/509407news.html

"Russia demand $700 mn more for Gorshkov

New Delhi, Feb 20: India's efforts to induct Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier into its fleet took another hit with Russia seeking an additional USD 700 million from India for the repair and refit works it is carrying out in Sevmash Shipyard.

The Russian decision to seek USD 700 million dollars was conveyed to India on February 10 during the bilateral meeting to re-negotiate the Russian demand for additional payment for the 44,500-tonne warship, Defence Ministry officials said today.

The Sevmash Shipyard was also stressing on an immediate release of USD 190 million for continuing the repair work, which had slowed down due to the fresh price negotiations.

This USD 700 billion demand was over and above the additional Rs 1.2 billion the Russians were already demanding for the warship bought by India in 2004 for USD 974 billion.

New Delhi was informed by a Russian delegation that the Russian President would agree on a final price of USD 2.9 billion, the officials said."

[funtz]

I got the news right here. The current cost is 2.9 billion after taking the addition 700 mil price hike in mind.

The budget allocated for CVN-76 Ronald Reagan was 4.3 billion, just to give you a perspective. There is no way that kind of money is justified for a second hand carrier.

Unfortunately, Russians have a nasty habit of milking their clients like China and India down to the last cent.

On second thought, this is quite a good scheme the Russians have. If India keeps forking up the money, they will keep on milking until the delivery date.

Of course, "accidents" can happen that push the delivery date back, thus more milking. If India decided it has had enough and cut its losses, then Russians could simply use the ship themselves, refitted with Indian money.

I'm a bit cynical when it comes to Russian business behaviours, so feel free to disagree.

--------------------------------------------------------

Link: http://www.zeenews.com/nation/2009-02-20/509407news.html

"Russia demand $700 mn more for Gorshkov


Its a Indian news source and most of the news reports i have seen have not quoted a official in person.

Just like the reports about the Kitty Hawk deal, that is the problem.

Till a quote is confirmed its all guess work.

Well it is what it is, till now the Gorshkov was supposed to fill in a Gap in the future acquisitions.

The Current carrier was to retire around 2007-2008, the Gorshkov was to fill the role of a carrier and training tool for the two planned Indigenous Aircraft Carriers (IAC), INS Vikrant (2012 commissioning now delayed.) and INS Viraat(2017 commissioning now delayed).

It (Vikramaditya/ex-Gorskov) was to be replaced eventually by the third IAC (which could be named INS Vishal as Vikrant, Viraat and Vishal are the different names for Huge, Large & big in Hindi) the commissioning date was probably 2022.

Which would have been the end of the current IAC project without facing a situation where the aircraft carrier operation & training capability was not lost or reduced for the future fleet.

The whole plan rested upon the Gorshkov Aircraft Carrier mod. being affordable (as it as in the original government to government agreement) and on time. (it is neither).

That is the reason that no money has been released since the delay and price escalation came into the picture.

Its like regretting a relationship after the make up comes off :))

[tphuang]

Actualy there are plans for only two Indegenious Aircraft Carriers as the INS Vikramaditya is the former russian AC Admiral Gorshkov, even though the plans is for having three ACs with atleast two operational at any point in time (with the third one probably in refit.maint etc) only two will be made in India as per current plans.

The first IAC is being built in Cochin Shipyard as we speak and the keel laying ceremony will be soon conducted this year (however construction of about 400 modules out of about 900 would be over by then).

The announced plans for the second IAC is in the range of 65000 - 70000 tons displacement, which when considered with the Ski Jump design and the design of the currently constructed IAC will be a clone of the Russian AC Kuznetsov

There are no announced plans for a third IAC and incase you need links please refer earlier posts in this thread or google it :)
if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?


New Delhi was informed by a Russian delegation that the Russian President would agree on a final price of USD 2.9 billion, the officials said."
1 Day Ago 06:13 AM


pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

[dragonfire]

if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?


India's indegenious naval programs always had the support of Russia, be it the IAC program or the ATV program (am pretty sure when it comes out it will look like a Schuka B/Akula sub - only perhaps smaller) or the co-produced BrahMos Missile program, am sure there were plenty of techinical inputs including designs and blueprints shared, am also sure tht the basic structural design would be as similar to the kuznetsov as possible yet a lot of indian variations would be there also wrt to various sensors etc

pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

I second that - motion passed :)

[harryriedl]

if they want to do a clone of kuznetsov, don't they need blueprints or something like that first?



pretty outrageous for a refitted carrier.

the problem is if the Russian don't compromise over the huge price what would India possibly do they can dump Gorskov and hope the IAC comes before Hermes falls apart (a 50 year plus carrier built with questionable steel they reused lots of war built steel of lower quality). Or pay up and hope for the best. lease a flat top from another nation to keep the crews trained (with less than 10 active sea harriers it wouldn't need to be big). Or make do with a gap of a few years without a carrier until replacements arrive

[SkolZkiy]

Guys remember that all these rumours about huge price and other aspects are taken only from some India's newspapers =) noone of the officials approved anything of this =)
It is only said that Russia asked more but how much more nobody really knows =)

[nevidimka]

OK, the keel laying ceremony is over, lets get in some pics of a definitive look by the shipyard shall we. It looks good.

[Type59]

OK, the keel laying ceremony is over, lets get in some pics of a definitive look by the shipyard shall we. It looks good.

No ski jump. Steam catapult for launching mig 29s?

Why is the navy over complicating the project? Building catapult technology, as well as a new ship is not easy.

But, I know next to nothing on shipbuilding thus I most likely am looking at it wrong.

[nevidimka]

No ski jump. Steam catapult for launching mig 29s?

Why is the navy over complicating the project? Building catapult technology, as well as a new ship is not easy.

But, I know next to nothing on shipbuilding thus I most likely am looking at it wrong.

The ski jump is there. Look closely.

[Feanor]

UAC VP and RAC MiG Director-General Mikhail Aslanovich Pogosyan, who says that Indian naval pilots have been training in Russia since October 2008. The theory portion of the course is done, and:

“Indian pilots are already training to fly the MiG-29Ks from a shore-based facility. They have been doing even 15 sorties in a day during the winter. We expect the first four MiG-29Ks to arrive in India later this year, with the other 12 being delivered by 2010.”

So all the MiG-29K are expected to be there by next year.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ins-vikramaditya-may-hit-delay-cost-increases-03283/

[Sea Toby]

If I were India, I would cancel the Russian aircraft carrier, fully expecting a full refund. The price has rose too high for a second hand carrier. I would build two of India's home built carriers as quickly as possible, using the refunded funds to fund the second carrier. Go to a second or third shift if necessary.

If Russia balked at refunding the funds, cancel more projects. Eventually, they will agree to come to the table. At the table complain about Russian inability to meet any contract on time and within budget, much less address spares adequately. Leave no doubt in anyone's mind the Russian failed to deliver, and its their fault for the cancellation.

Frankly, considering the Russian slowness in retrofitting the second hand carrier, a new carrier could have been built during this time, I have serious doubts whether this shipyard can deliver any ship on time and within budget.

Last year the Russians need quite a bit more, but a year later they want much, much more to finish. With Russia's recent history, I would expect they would want more next year. Pull the plug!

Move on with India's home built carrier. In my eyes, its a better carrier.

[saadm]

Does anyone have information on INS VIRAAT exercise.BTW why do they take it out now,with weak air defence and sub capability the carrier is going to have very little protection :confused:

[swerve]

Does anyone have information on INS VIRAAT exercise.BTW why do they take it out now,with weak air defence and sub capability the carrier is going to have very little protection :confused:
They're not at war with anyone.

[saadm]

They're not at war with anyone.

They don't have to.Do I really have to tell you that a rival power can try to test/snoop in their effectiveness/strategy :D

[Waylander]

Yeah right, some assets are not available and I stop training the rest of my forces.

Makes sense in peacetime...

[saadm]

Yeah right, some assets are not available and I stop training the rest of my forces.

Makes sense in peacetime...

Its still better than revealing the relatively little expertise/tactics that you have and still worse if you suffer humiliation.Just imagine if the Viraat suffers a breakdown considering it is 50 years old in the middle of the ocean,does the IN have the assets/expertise to handle such a situation??? ;)

[Waylander]

You are still arguing that one should stop to train just because some assets are not available or something could go wrong.
And this is just nonsense.

Without proper training the assets you have are useless so you gain nothing from letting them do nothing just because you fear somebody could get some intelligence or because something could go wrong.

[saadm]

Without proper training the assets you have are useless so you gain nothing from letting them do nothing just because you fear somebody could get some intelligence or because something could go wrong.

Stop putting words in my mouth wayland.Read my post carefully and then reply.My point is only about the aircraft carrier and that it is simply too old and that it does not have proper air defence and sub escorts to carry out such a long range exercise.

Again Answer my question.If the carrier breaks down in another countries territorial waters (we all know the consequences of that) or in the middle of the ocean does the IN have the capability to bring it safely home???

[Waylander]

I didn't put any words into you mouth.
Why shouldn't they train with it?
Can't let the carrier stay totally untrained till the new carriers arrive.

As for breaking down. Use an own tug or hire a civilian one for the duration of the exercise if the possibility of a breakdown is that big.
I just don't see the problem here.

[kay_man]

I didn't put any words into you mouth.
Why shouldn't they train with it?
Can't let the carrier stay totally untrained till the new carriers arrive.

As for breaking down. Use an own tug or hire a civilian one for the duration of the exercise if the possibility of a breakdown is that big.
I just don't see the problem here.

and by the way guys this is not the first time that Indian Navy is operating an old second hand carrier. do you remember INS Vikrant the former HMS Invinsible.
the IN used it very effective in wartime and peacetime.
so i think the navy is very capable of handling any maritime crisis.
not to mention the Viraat is undergoing extensive refit and renovations to exten its life till 2012-2013.

[Feanor]

If I were India, I would cancel the Russian aircraft carrier, fully expecting a full refund. The price has rose too high for a second hand carrier. I would build two of India's home built carriers as quickly as possible, using the refunded funds to fund the second carrier. Go to a second or third shift if necessary.

Can India build the necessary carriers on time? It might not be possible.

If Russia balked at refunding the funds, cancel more projects. Eventually, they will agree to come to the table. At the table complain about Russian inability to meet any contract on time and within budget, much less address spares adequately. Leave no doubt in anyone's mind the Russian failed to deliver, and its their fault for the cancellation.

I'm sure Russia would refund it, and then press the carrier into VMF service like it was done with the Algerian MiGs. The bad PR from not refunding it would be too much.

Frankly, considering the Russian slowness in retrofitting the second hand carrier, a new carrier could have been built during this time, I have serious doubts whether this shipyard can deliver any ship on time and within budget.

It can't. Sevmash has already lost it's director over the mess with the Gorshkov. Similar problems have happened with delivery of ships to the VMF from this and other shipyards. Russian ship-building is currently in very poor state.

Last year the Russians need quite a bit more, but a year later they want much, much more to finish. With Russia's recent history, I would expect they would want more next year. Pull the plug!

I don't know if the rumors of a second price hike are true or not. I have not seen official confirmation from either side so far.

[swerve]

and by the way guys this is not the first time that Indian Navy is operating an old second hand carrier. do you remember INS Vikrant the former HMS Invinsible..
Vikrant was the former HMS Hercules, sold to India in 1957, 20 years before Invincible was launched. She'd never been finished, construction having been suspended at the end of WW2, & was completed for India to a modified design, including an angled deck & steam catapults, & commissioned in 1961.

I think British shipyards 50 years ago were more efficient than Sevmash today. ;)

Invincible was launched 1977, & has been in the possession of the Royal Navy ever since. She's tied up in Portsmouth Harbour right now, where she's been since being put in reserve in 2005.

[kay_man]

Vikrant was the former HMS Hercules, sold to India in 1957, 20 years before Invincible was launched. She'd never been finished, construction having been suspended at the end of WW2, & was completed for India to a modified design, including an angled deck & steam catapults, & commissioned in 1961.

I think British shipyards 50 years ago were more efficient than Sevmash today. ;)

Invincible was launched 1977, & has been in the possession of the Royal Navy ever since. She's tied up in Portsmouth Harbour right now, where she's been since being put in reserve in 2005.

sorry my mistake.
but my point is that this is the Indian navy, they always had second hand stuff and they know how make it work and make it work well !:)

[kay_man]

Shivalik-class frigates ready for trial

Mumbai, Feb 08: The first of the three Shivalik-class stealth frigates being built at Mazagon Dock here is ready for sea trial in March-April and it would be delivered to the Indian Navy in the next few months.

Related Stories
No face-off between Indian, Chinese Navies: Admiral Sureesh Mehta"We are taking the frigate for sea trials after March. We may deliver the frigate either before the monsoon or after the monsoon," an official of Mazagon Dock said.

"Delivery of the frigate during the monsoon will not be appropriate," the official said.

The Dock has begun work on the second and third frigates, too. The company expects to finish and deliver remaining frigates by 2010, the official said.

[swerve]

sorry my mistake.
but my point is that this is the Indian navy, they always had second hand stuff and they know how make it work and make it work well !:)
Vikrant wasn't really secondhand. She was new-built, bought incomplete & finished to IN specs. She'd never been in the water until launched for the IN.

[dragonfire]

I didn't put any words into you mouth.
Why shouldn't they train with it?
Can't let the carrier stay totally untrained till the new carriers arrive.

As for breaking down. Use an own tug or hire a civilian one for the duration of the exercise if the possibility of a breakdown is that big.
I just don't see the problem here.

I dont see a point in arguing with a banned member, but just wanted to agree with Waylander that there is no need for stoping the training for the sake of protecting the AC, there is no current threat scenario (except a vague terrorist threat raised a month or two back) as it is not a war time situation besides the idea that the Viraat cannot protect itself against regional threats is ridiculus as the primary objective of an Indian AC is air defense that is why the new ACs being built are being called Air Defense Ships, the Viraat was also fitted with BARACK SAMs in the last refit and carry the still formidable Sea Harriers whose job it is to give air cover for the carrier group as group air escorts (Sea Harriers in a no radar situation are almost indistiguishable with its new camo scheme as was demonstrated in a air excercise against rafales - the rafales won in the radar on situation though)

[Misguided Fool]

I dunno if any of have you considered this aspect (sorry if this has already been mentioned!):

My Dad joined the navy in the 1970s. In those days the success rate for applicants was very low: he has many a story of how he was selected from out of over 100 candidates for the officer corps.

Today the situation is very different. With a booming private sector, inflation, and static (although they are being forced upwards!) military wages, the current intake of officers and consequently the quality of the officer corps is very poor.

What will we/India do in the future, or what will we do today to stop catastrophe in the future? How can we propose to effectively use three carriers with a surrounding fleet of destroyers and frigates with an unintelligent, inferior and ineffecient officer corps?

I think instead of spending on one extra carrier, the Indian navy should spend on increased wages / benefits to military members to attract them from the far more lucrative private sector.

[dragonfire]

I dunno if any of have you considered this aspect (sorry if this has already been mentioned!):

My Dad joined the navy in the 1970s. In those days the success rate for applicants was very low: he has many a story of how he was selected from out of over 100 candidates for the officer corps.

Today the situation is very different. With a booming private sector, inflation, and static (although they are being forced upwards!) military wages, the current intake of officers and consequently the quality of the officer corps is very poor.

What will we/India do in the future, or what will we do today to stop catastrophe in the future? How can we propose to effectively use three carriers with a surrounding fleet of destroyers and frigates with an unintelligent, inferior and ineffecient officer corps?

I think instead of spending on one extra carrier, the Indian navy should spend on increased wages / benefits to military members to attract them from the far more lucrative private sector.

The armed forces compensation revision is being considerered and being contested in the recent future and what with the current economic situation more candidates for the National Defence Academy is presumable :)

[xudeen]

Heya fellows, anyone knows what is the intended theatre of operation for these three AC?

[Sea Toby]

One east and one west of India. The third is an extra, replacing either under maintenance.

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

If 2 carriers were in operation then 2 would be in docks as minimum number of carriers. So really India needs 4 not 3. India couldve spent better money else where such as their own carrier projects, or even purchased a new one. Admiral Gorshkov is like a money well it keeps asking for more money, delayed delivery time, re-assessing the repairs, more money.

[Feanor]

That makes no sense. Why would 2 be in docks at once? You can rotate deployments, and carriers only need to spend a fraction of their life in maintenance. The USN has 11 carriers, with one in maintenance at any given time as far as I know.

[gf0012-aust]

That makes no sense. Why would 2 be in docks at once? You can rotate deployments, and carriers only need to spend a fraction of their life in maintenance. The USN has 11 carriers, with one in maintenance at any given time as far as I know.


Feanors correct. 2 ships means that one is on and one is off at given points in time. the more ships you have, the greater redundancy and time on station for a given vessel before hitting its rotation point

[gf0012-aust]

One east and one west of India. The third is an extra, replacing either under maintenance.

Might be more than just east and west as they have a critical base just rebuilt in the Andomans.

they have flexibility of choice, but I would think that the andomans and west would be first priority with the andomans assets also covering off the east if necessary

[Rish]

Shivalik-class frigates ready for trial

Mumbai, Feb 08: The first of the three Shivalik-class stealth frigates being built at Mazagon Dock here is ready for sea trial in March-April and it would be delivered to the Indian Navy in the next few months.

Related Stories
No face-off between Indian, Chinese Navies: Admiral Sureesh Mehta"We are taking the frigate for sea trials after March. We may deliver the frigate either before the monsoon or after the monsoon," an official of Mazagon Dock said.

"Delivery of the frigate during the monsoon will not be appropriate," the official said.

The Dock has begun work on the second and third frigates, too. The company expects to finish and deliver remaining frigates by 2010, the official said.

so have the issues with the engine been solved? i mean has the US agreed to revoke its ban on ge working on the engines? i read somewhere that the navy contracted german engineers to take over the work, but i'm not sure. btw i found a picture of the ship if you'd like to see.

[Salty Dog]

so have the issues with the engine been solved? i mean has the US agreed to revoke its ban on ge working on the engines? i read somewhere that the navy contracted german engineers to take over the work, but i'm not sure. btw i found a picture of the ship if you'd like to see.

Regarding the GE ban. It is most likely that GE failed to apply for export licensing. I've seen this happen before. It is actually GE's fault and not the US Government.

In fact the licensing is most likely not for the LM 2500 turbines themselves, but for the control panels and systems that run the turbines. These panels and control systems are quite a bit more advanced in technology than the turbines, so an export license is required.

It is probable that the deal may have been handled via the GE subsidiary Nuovo Pignone in Italy, which may be why an export license was not sought, but caught up with GE.

Perhaps someone can all confirm all this.

[Type59]

so have the issues with the engine been solved? i mean has the US agreed to revoke its ban on ge working on the engines? i read somewhere that the navy contracted german engineers to take over the work, but i'm not sure. btw i found a picture of the ship if you'd like to see.

INS have bigger problems, who was the genius who forgot to relise there is no where to install turbines :shudder

Sorry, Mumbai has no berth for Kolkata
SUJAN DUTTA

New Delhi, March 16: The navy is all at sea because there is no room in Mumbai for Kolkata.

The INS Kolkata, the navy’s “stealth” guided-missile destroyer named after the Bengal capital, is floating -- unable to sail -- in the waters off the west coast metropolis.

Not a berth is available in the Mazagaon Docks where the INS Kolkata is to be moored so that it can be fitted with four gas turbines to propel it; given a landing deck and a hangar for two helicopters; armed with missiles and torpedoes to make it the most powerful warship of its class.

On schedule, the 6,700-tonne INS Kolkata would by now have been in a “hot start” mode with four Ukrainian M-36 Gas Turbine propulsion systems and ready for sea trials. Classified as Project 15Alpha, the INS Kolkata, the first of three in its class, would have “an updated weapons package and new-look exteriors and improved stealth (making it difficult to detect) and will be delivered beginning with the end of this decade”, says official literature distributed by the directorate of naval design.

But senior naval sources say a conservative delivery schedule envisages that the INS Kolkata will be ready only in 2013, at least three years after its deadline.

The INS Kolkata is not the only warship to be delayed. A parliamentary committee study has found that nearly all the stealth projects of the navy totalling worth more than Rs 19,000 crore are late. More than 30 ships and submarines are being built for the Indian Navy at home and overseas.

The INS Kolkata was “launched” three years ago. Its keel was laid in September 2003 when it was announced that it would be commissioned in 2010.

But now there is not a single shipyard in the country large enough to accommodate the INS Kolkata. Calcutta’s own Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers is too small to accommodate a destroyer. Even then, it has its berths full with orders for offshore and fast patrol boats and frigates.

In Mazagaon Docks (MDL), a senior naval officer told The Telegraph: “They do not have the manpower, design, capability, availability of berths, and the wherewithal to meet monthly targets -- simply put, there does not seem to be the will.”

He said MDL makes a 12 per cent profit in any case and cost overruns add to its revenues and all projects, including the strategic, licensed-from-the-French Scorpene submarine venture, are running behind schedule.

Worse, the INS Shivalik stealth frigate project has been hit by an insidious bombshell after the new Obama administration instructed GE to stop work on a pair of gas turbine engines on the ship under US laws.

The Indian Navy is now trying to work around the laws by drawing in consultants from Italy and Germany by using the defence public sector Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. The INS Shivalik is likely to be delayed by at least nine months.

The INS Kolkata is an advancement over the INS Delhi, the destroyer currently in service that also has the INS Mumbai and the INS Mysore in its class. The enhanced weapons package on the INS Kolkata will include twin-tube torpedo-launchers, anti-submarine rocket launchers, and 28 Long Range Surface to Air Missiles (LR-SAMs), possibly the Barak-NG (next generation).

The Barak-NG has run into a controversy itself with the CPM demanding that India should pull out of the joint venture project. A venture between India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation and the Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for which the cabinet committee on security has committed at least Rs 10,000 crore, the Barak-NG or Barak-II ship missile defence system is yet to be tried and tested.

The Indian Navy has armed its vessels with the first generation of Barak missiles with which it claims it is satisfied.

In keeping with the new look that the city it is named after aspires for, the INS Kolkata has been given a sophisticated design that compares among the best of warships in its class.

Indian Naval Headquarters asked its designers to come up with a destroyer that can operate with fully integrated multi-function radar systems and, for the first time, 16 silos -- eight on each side -- capable of launching Brahmos supersonic cruise missiles.

Estimated to cost nearly Rs 8,500 crore, the INS Kolkata “will be capable of exerting sea-control in a multi-threat environment”, says Rear Admiral M.K. Budhwar, director-general of naval design.

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

That makes no sense. Why would 2 be in docks at once? You can rotate deployments, and carriers only need to spend a fraction of their life in maintenance. The USN has 11 carriers, with one in maintenance at any given time as far as I know.
well i was replying to below poster. one in docks in west and one in docks in east, while 1 in west and 1 in west in operations out at sea. also gives you flexibility of deploying beyond indian ocean borders. but still retain carriers to defend your own waters. i never said 2 carriers at 1 dock. you didnt read properly.

[funtz]

INS have bigger problems, who was the genius who forgot to relise there is no where to install turbines :shudder

Not a berth is available in the Mazagaon Docks where the INS Kolkata is to be moored so that it can be fitted with four gas turbines to propel it; given a landing deck and a hangar for two helicopters; armed with missiles and torpedoes to make it the most powerful warship of its class.

Worse, the INS Shivalik stealth frigate project has been hit by an insidious bombshell after the new Obama administration instructed GE to stop work on a pair of gas turbine engines on the ship under US laws.

The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.

Well i was replying to below poster. one in docks in west and one in docks in east, while 1 in west and 1 in west in operations out at sea. also gives you flexibility of deploying beyond indian ocean borders. but still retain carriers to defend your own waters. i never said 2 carriers at 1 dock. you didnt read properly.

What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.

What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.
future buddy i was trying to refer to since india dont have these carriers now obviously its future talk. Since India is gonna expand its naval forces they'll start to construct new naval bases to cover the west middle eastern side and the east-southern side of asia. they need to protect their assets in the near future when energy sources are scarce.

[kay_man]

The trouble is that all once they have a single delay, it transfers its effects down to all subsequent programs.

INS Shivalik is expected to be ready after monsoons, the GE delay of 3-9 months seems to be another media rumor.

exactly. they said that the Shivalik was ready for sea trials but it would be unsuitable to launch it during monsoon bcoz of the rough seas. So they were going to wait untill the end of monsoon.

What docks in east and west are you talking about?
There is just one at Cochin Shipyard (West coast) to handle the Aircraft Carrier Program.

and there are pics of the Kolkata class destroyer in dock.
so how can it floating offshore. anyway i dont the navy or even MDl would keep its best STEALTH ship floating carelessly......even if the work on it was delayed.

[Rish]

so i had a question about the aircraft being equipped on these carriers. why is india opting to have more then one aircraft on its carrier (naval tejas & Mig-29k)? wouldn't that just increase the logistical burden on its' crews and the navy?

[Sea Toby]

I would guess that India wishes to use the Mig 29s as interceptors, and the Tejas as strike aircraft.

[Salty Dog]

IMHO both the IAF and the IN are not keen on acquiring the LCA/Tejas. Both are frustrated that the LCA has not met their specs and development is constantly delayed. Their eventual acquisition/implementation is probably more political than practical.

[Misguided Fool]

I would guess that India wishes to use the Mig 29s as interceptors, and the Tejas as strike aircraft.

I think it might end up being the other way around. Even though the MiG 29 is an air superiority fighter, the MiG 29 K that's being shipped with the Gorshkov has 8 pylons instead of 6 and thus increased weapons load. It also has two engines ... whereas the Tejas just has one.

IMO, the Tejas is just a bad equivalent of the MiG 29 - it follows the same design principles (air superiority fighter with multirole capability), but it has less range, less weapon capacity, less speed, less manoeverability and one less engine. As Salty dog says, it's probably more political than practical.

However, it's important to note that the experience gained from operating an indigenous fighter on a carrier is immense; the Tejas might be weak compared to the MiG 29, but it is the product of Indian design, so maybe next time, the fighter produced might turn out to be better than foreign competition :).

[Salty Dog]

As a carrier based fighter, the effectiveness of the Mig-29K remains to be seen. AFAIK the Soviet/Russian navy only tested the Mig-29 carrier variant and never acquired it for their embarked naval air forces.

It is already a bold venture for the IN to operate the Mig-29K from new untested aircraft carriers and even bolder to incorporate a navalised LCA.

Time and money (lots of it) will tell.

[Rish]

so what aircraft do you think would you have been a better choice to invest in (other then the Mig or LCA) considering the geopolitical situation india is currently in?

[Rish]

Regarding the GE ban. It is most likely that GE failed to apply for export licensing. I've seen this happen before. It is actually GE's fault and not the US Government.

In fact the licensing is most likely not for the LM 2500 turbines themselves, but for the control panels and systems that run the turbines. These panels and control systems are quite a bit more advanced in technology than the turbines, so an export license is required.

It is probable that the deal may have been handled via the GE subsidiary Nuovo Pignone in Italy, which may be why an export license was not sought, but caught up with GE.

Perhaps someone can all confirm all this.

yeah youre right. the problem was solved this week, but the media hasn't picked up on the story yet.

[Salty Dog]

so what aircraft do you think would you have been a better choice to invest in (other then the Mig or LCA) considering the geopolitical situation india is currently in?

The Mig-29K and Su-33 are the only options as India has decided to go the STOBAR route. This puts India in the same club as Russia and China. Two other STOBAR users with limited aircraft carrier experience. Actually, only Russia has operated STOBAR aircraft.

I do no see where geopolitics have anything to do with this.

I find it interesting that India, experienced in V/STOL operations, did not choose to advance their proven system. The V/STOL carrier system has matured in the UK, Italy, and Spain with newer generations of aircraft carriers and the F-35B coming online in the near future. India was part of that group.

A better question would be did India make the right decision to move away from V/STOL to STOBAR?

IMHO India should have moved over to CATOBAR, a very proven system.

[Rish]

The Mig-29K and Su-33 are the only options as India has decided to go the STOBAR route. This puts India in the same club as Russia and China. Two other STOBAR users with limited aircraft carrier experience. Actually, only Russia has operated STOBAR aircraft.

I do no see where geopolitics have anything to do with this.

I find it interesting that India, experienced in V/STOL operations, did not choose to advance their proven system. The V/STOL carrier system has matured in the UK, Italy, and Spain with newer generations of aircraft carriers and the F-35B coming online in the near future. India was part of that group.

A better question would be did India make the right decision to move away from V/STOL to STOBAR?

IMHO India should have moved over to CATOBAR, a very proven system.


Yeah youre right I forget India basically has a free hand to buy any naval jet it wants aside from the F-35 as long as it has the cash for it. Its still a new concept to me :D

Well, do you think that America would sell the catapult system to India? the IAC was conceived and designed before the India-US relations thawed. I'm sure the idea for a CATOBAR carrier system came up, but was not possible due to the political as well as financial situation during time of design and development.

I think that India made the right decision in moving away from V/STOL. F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

I'm guessing you know a lot more about the catapult maintenance issues, so you tell me that if there were an embargo placed on spares to India would India be able to carry on and for how long? I know that Brazil has a CATOBAR carrier, how is that coming along? Is it just a problem of funding that is preventing normal operations or does it have to do with embargo's on critical equipment needed to maintain the catapult or a combination of both?

[StevoJH]

Yeah youre right I forget India basically has a free hand to buy any naval jet it wants aside from the F-35 as long as it has the cash for it. Its still a new concept to me :D

Well, do you think that America would sell the catapult system to India? the IAC was conceived and designed before the India-US relations thawed. I'm sure the idea for a CATOBAR carrier system came up, but was not possible due to the political as well as financial situation during time of design and development.

I think that India made the right decision in moving away from V/STOL. F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

I'm guessing you know a lot more about the catapult maintenance issues, so you tell me that if there were an embargo placed on spares to India would India be able to carry on and for how long? I know that Brazil has a CATOBAR carrier, how is that coming along? Is it just a problem of funding that is preventing normal operations or does it have to do with embargo's on critical equipment needed to maintain the catapult or a combination of both?

The Brazilian Carrier uses a british catapult rather then a US catapult. The problem is that those catapults have been out of production since the 1960's. Sao Paulo is an old ship (about the same age as the USS Enterprise) and Brazil only has a limited budget to operate the ship.

[funtz]

Of the currently available options (Su-33, F-18 super hornet, Rafale, Mig-29K) i think all of these planes can operate in STOBAR (they seem to have the required takeoff thrust and distance), the fuel and weapons they can carry in STOBAR would probably be different.

Does CATOBAR require more strengthening of the airframe than STOBAR? (seem to remember something like this from the concept studies for typhoon naval)

[gf0012-aust]

The Brazilian Carrier uses a british catapult rather then a US catapult. The problem is that those catapults have been out of production since the 1960's. Sao Paulo is an old ship (about the same age as the USS Enterprise) and Brazil only has a limited budget to operate the ship.


All contemp catobat solutions are US - and the US does sell versions of the tech under license. (eg Charles de Gaulle uses a licensed US catapult system)

[gf0012-aust]

Well, do you think that America would sell the catapult system to India? the IAC was conceived and designed before the India-US relations thawed. I'm sure the idea for a CATOBAR carrier system came up, but was not possible due to the political as well as financial situation during time of design and development.

I think that India made the right decision in moving away from V/STOL. F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

I'm guessing you know a lot more about the catapult maintenance issues, so you tell me that if there were an embargo placed on spares to India would India be able to carry on and for how long? I know that Brazil has a CATOBAR carrier, how is that coming along? Is it just a problem of funding that is preventing normal operations or does it have to do with embargo's on critical equipment needed to maintain the catapult or a combination of both?


see prev. I don't see any reason why the US would not release and license the same generation catapult technology provided to France. They'd be happy to sell that tech to India.

what they won't sell to France or India is the new EM catapult technology

[Abraham Gubler]

F-35B would not have been available to India by the time the first carrier was commissioned and even though she could buy used harriers from the british how long would they last? We've seen the problems with the upgrade efforts of the current harriers. The F-35b is not an option that is available to India in the near future as has been discussed on this forum.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. India is on the export target list for the F-35 and FMS buys of F-35s of any variety (including F-35B) could be available as soon as the LRIPs. I'm quite sure if the Indian Navy wants F-35B it could have the first squadron in service by the mid 2010s.

The Indians are still concerned about the reliability of American material support during times of war and during times of peace. The Americans have been known to use such deals as instruments of political pressure. I think there would have been a lot of political pressure to prevent India from purchasing catapult equipment (unless America provided full TOT, which i doubt) because of vulnerability it would be subject to if America imposed an embargo on support equipment/spares for the catapult system.

Well it depends on who you are fighting. If any nation wants to buy weapons with no strings attached the way to do that is the gun runners and a handful of less than law abiding suppliers. The issue for India is are they going to want to fight someone the USA is not going to be happy they are fighting...

[Falstaff]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding in this matter is that a STOBAR configuration is the "cheapest" solution here; a catapult is adding a (probably expensive) system that needs room and maintenance, STOVL carriers require STOVL planes that too are (if available) more expensive to buy, prob. more expensive to operate.
So if I were to design a carrier on my own for the first time, I'd probably go down the same route.

[gf0012-aust]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding in this matter is that a STOBAR configuration is the "cheapest" solution here; a catapult is adding a (probably expensive) system that needs room and maintenance, STOVL carriers require STOVL planes that too are (if available) more expensive to buy, prob. more expensive to operate.
So if I were to design a carrier on my own for the first time, I'd probably go down the same route.

STOBAR is a technologically "easier" solution - but the impact is more than just the build costs. It effects doctrine as well. Load out issues, fuel burn, the need to bring in mission tankers at different points depending on time on target issues, volley rates, form up rates etc.... all are impacted upon.

Then there are bunkerage design issues, even elevator placement, armoury placement etc....

[swerve]

The issue for India is are they going to want to fight someone the USA is not going to be happy they are fighting...
They have done, several times, & are prepared to do so again.

[Sea Toby]

There is the problem with India and Pakistan's relations dealing with Kashmir. The UN passed a resolution requiring Pakistan to leave along with India holding an election in Kashmir. Since Pakistan has never left, India has never held the election. Neither side wishes to back down either.

[dragonfire]

Might be more than just east and west as they have a critical base just rebuilt in the Andomans.

they have flexibility of choice, but I would think that the andomans and west would be first priority with the andomans assets also covering off the east if necessary


In the west the ADS would in all probability be based out of Vishakapatanam which is the command HQ and the Abdaman command is a tri services command and not a Naval command in itself so its doubtful that the Flag ship of the command will be deployed there

[dragonfire]

There is the problem with India and Pakistan's relations dealing with Kashmir. The UN passed a resolution requiring Pakistan to leave along with India holding an election in Kashmir. Since Pakistan has never left, India has never held the election. Neither side wishes to back down either.


Am not sure what exactly you are referring to - but if its regarding elections on the indian side of the border, then Kashmir has seen regular elections as well internationaly observed Referendum, if its about POK then i think that its governed by an elected body as well with some autonomy

[dragonfire]

News Update !

1

Indian Navy to get 4 new destroyers

New Delhi, march 23 (PTI): To bolster the Navy’s combat capability, the government has approved building of 4 new power-packed destroyer warships. Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) would soon get the “follow-on orders” for building the new destroyers of the ‘Kolkata’ class, top Navy sources said here on Tuesday. “The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has last month given in-principle approval to the Navy’s proposal for construction of four new Kolkata class destroyers,” they said.

http://www.morungexpress.com/national/17931.html
-With the addition of the 7 Kolkata class destroyers the IN will almost double its count of modern destroyers and the total no of ships would go to 140. Which is good news for the future carrier groups as destroyers would definetely be accompanying the ACs
-
2

US allows GE to work on Indian warship
New Delhi March 24, 2009, 0:21 IST

India’s new stealth warship, the INS Shivalik, is back on track. On March 12, 2009, the US government gave General Electric (GE) the green signal for resuming work on the two LM 2500 gas turbines that power the Shivalik. On March 6, 2009, Business Standard had reported that the stealth frigate was being delayed by “stop all work” instructions to GE from the US State Department.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/us-allows-ge-to-workindian-warship/352754/-
Well atleast this controversy has come to rest - as some members of the forum stated looks like the delay was due to some technicalities rather than a political one as that would have looked like a major cool down in Indo-US relations, hope Obama would take it to the next level than bring it down a notch ot two, fingers crossed here

3

India warships to join Chinese fleet review in April

New Delhi, Mar 20 (PTI) In a sign of growing defence ties between the two Asian giants, India will send two of its naval ships to China to participate in the International Fleet Review at its port-town of Quingdao this April. This will be the second occasion in the last two years that India's naval ships would visit a Chinese port.

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/21E99655C7D34A746525757F004E9BDE?OpenDocument-
From Traditional mistrust to increased cooperation - some stigma of the infamouss IN submarine vs. Chinese warships incident will go beacuse of this positive steps

[Sea Toby]

Am not sure what exactly you are referring to - but if its regarding elections on the indian side of the border, then Kashmir has seen regular elections as well internationaly observed Referendum, if its about POK then i think that its governed by an elected body as well with some autonomy

I was recalling a UN resolution passed back in 1947. Its been sixty years, Pakistan hasn't left Kashmir, while India has never held an election of the people of Kashmir to be a part of either India or Pakistan. But its a moot point, after 60 years...... What is sad, is that neither side has honored this UN resolution.

[dragonfire]

I was recalling a UN resolution passed back in 1947. Its been sixty years, Pakistan hasn't left Kashmir, while India has never held an election of the people of Kashmir to be a part of either India or Pakistan. But its a moot point, after 60 years...... What is sad, is that neither side has honored this UN resolution.

Am not privy to the exact details of the UN resolution - however am 100% sure that on the Indian side of the border free and fair elections have been conducted time and again and the state of Jammu and Kashmir is governed by a elected body from the people and its been governed mostly by regional parties, The elections have been witnessed by International observers. Basicaly the indian govt prmotes democracy

- however i feel we shouldnt take the more of the entire forum's time here and incase u have reverts on the same, i request you to PM me

Tnks

[StevoJH]

I was recalling a UN resolution passed back in 1947. Its been sixty years, Pakistan hasn't left Kashmir, while India has never held an election of the people of Kashmir to be a part of either India or Pakistan. But its a moot point, after 60 years...... What is sad, is that neither side has honored this UN resolution.

Basing this soley off what you have written here, and i apologise if i am missing something here, but how can India hold elections in Kashmir if it is occupied by Pakistan?

[Rish]

Basing this soley off what you have written here, and i apologise if i am missing something here, but how can India hold elections in Kashmir if it is occupied by Pakistan?

The resolution he is referring to called for Pakistan to pull back its' troops out of Kashmir. After the removal of Pakistani troops the UN would hold a referendum that would decide which country Kashmir would accede to. Its all on wikipedia its called resolution 47.

[Type59]

The resolution he is referring to called for Pakistan to pull back its' troops out of Kashmir. After the removal of Pakistani troops the UN would hold a referendum that would decide which country Kashmir would accede to. Its all on wikipedia its called resolution 47.

Independence is one of the option. As a Kashmiri, I know alot of people would vote indepedence. However I supported the peace formula devised by fmr Pres Musharraf and PM of India because both sides have nukes and importantly why be hostage to history. People on both sides are destablising each nation. Look at the history of both nations initiating insurgencies to weaken their neighbours.

[dragonfire]

News Update

Indian navy will have 160 warships by 2022: Admiral Mehta

Indian Navy aims to be a 160-warship and 300-aircraft strong naval force by 2022, the Chief of Naval staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta said today.

"We have long term integrated perspective plan which has all the ships that we need to construct right upto 2022. By that time we should be a navy with powerful 160 warships and 300 aircraft,"he said on the sidelines of India&aposs first ever 105-meter class Naval offshore patrol vessel INS Saryu at the port town of Vasco.

http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news/latest-news/536389/National/1/20/1
-

Doesnt look much more than the current projection of 150 vessels, but what is surprising is the 300 no aircraft inventory projection, wonder how many are naval fighters, hopefuly the numbers not inclusive of the coast guard inventory (am sure it isnt)

[Salty Dog]

News Update

Indian navy will have 160 warships by 2022: Admiral Mehta

Indian Navy aims to be a 160-warship and 300-aircraft strong naval force by 2022, the Chief of Naval staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta said today.

Doesnt look much more than the current projection of 150 vessels, but what is surprising is the 300 no aircraft inventory projection, wonder how many are naval fighters, hopefuly the numbers not inclusive of the coast guard inventory (am sure it isnt)

What Indian Naval Doctrine is driving the navy to meet these numbers?

IMHO the 160 will include not only include larger capital ships, but numerous smaller patrol and auxiliary craft as well as submarines.

The 300 aircraft number is a bit high and you are probably correct on the coast guard. Most of these aircraft anyway are probably rotary wing.

[dragonfire]

What Indian Naval Doctrine is driving the navy to meet these numbers?

IMHO the 160 will include not only include larger capital ships, but numerous smaller patrol and auxiliary craft as well as submarines.

The 300 aircraft number is a bit high and you are probably correct on the coast guard. Most of these aircraft anyway are probably rotary wing.

Well the stated doctrine of the Indian Navy is to become a Blue Water Navy, but you are right that the numbers projected are that of all assets albeit dicounting the coast guard as it is a different wing and operates independently of the navy.

What you say is right that the numbers will include all kinds of vessels, Infact the announcement was made when a new Patrol boat (105 mtrs) was launched.

A lot of the aerial assets are non fighter assets like helis, surveliance crafts, transports etc, I mean there are only about a dozen VTOL capable harriers currently (apart from the first batch of Mig-29ks - which are being trained on in Russia probably)

[Rish]

hey has anyone else heard about this? In the first paragraph the article talks about india acquiring 32 naval airships, but in the quote it states 32 warships... i havent found any other source confirming that it is airships, but i did find a source that talks about india building airships with US help. can anyone shed some light on this? the link for the second source is at the bottom.

http://nosint.blogspot.com/2009/05/india-to-build-32-airships-six.html

India to build 32 airships, six submarines in 3 years: Navy chief

India is all set to build on its own at least 32 naval airships and six submarines in three years' time as part of its Navy's modernization program, Indian Navy chief Admiral Suresh Mehta said Tuesday.

"The Indian Navy would build 32 warships and six submarines using indigenous technology by the year 2012," Mehta told the media in the eastern Indian city of Kolkata on the sidelines of commissioning of the Navy's sixth Landing Ship Tank, Airavat, into the Eastern Naval Command.


US may provide ‘defensive’ nuclear, biological equip-ment to India,Security Issues, News Analysis, India News Online (http://news.indiamart.com/news-analysis/us-may-provide-defen-1099.html)

[LAL]

News Update

Indian navy will have 160 warships by 2022: Admiral Mehta

Indian Navy aims to be a 160-warship and 300-aircraft strong naval force by 2022, the Chief of Naval staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta said today.

"We have long term integrated perspective plan which has all the ships that we need to construct right upto 2022. By that time we should be a navy with powerful 160 warships and 300 aircraft,"he said on the sidelines of India&aposs first ever 105-meter class Naval offshore patrol vessel INS Saryu at the port town of Vasco.

National : Indian navy will have 160 warships by 2022: Admiral Mehta : 536389 (http://www.indopia.in/India-usa-uk-news/latest-news/536389/National/1/20/1)
-

Doesnt look much more than the current projection of 150 vessels, but what is surprising is the 300 no aircraft inventory projection, wonder how many are naval fighters, hopefuly the numbers not inclusive of the coast guard inventory (am sure it isnt)

The navy is aggressively persuaded acquisition of advance combat and survey lance jets (the acquisition of P8i is one such example). Now with a stable government in the center there will a massive increment in the purchasing of arms. As there is no "left parties" to oppose deals with USA and Israel

[dragonfire]

The navy is aggressively persuaded acquisition of advance combat and survey lance jets (the acquisition of P8i is one such example). Now with a stable government in the center there will a massive increment in the purchasing of arms. As there is no "left parties" to oppose deals with USA and Israel

Yeah the stable govt without too much outside support esp the left not being in the ruling coaliton (being anti-bjp will work for the incumbent govt as well he he) as well the fact that the defence minister will be the same as the previous one will work in favor of the indian defence forces and the acquisition and modernisation programes

Hope the Navy gets a meaty bite out of the chunk of new programes - the IN deperately lacks subs and other vessels, however the P81 was ordered by the previous govt.

Am sure the within the next 6 months we can possibly witness newer orders from the Navy to top the previous ones

[Salty Dog]

Hope the Navy gets a meaty bite out of the chunk of new programes - the IN deperately lacks subs and other vessels, however the P81 was ordered by the previous govt.

Am sure the within the next 6 months we can possibly witness newer orders from the Navy to top the previous ones

The only large IN acquisition AFAIK pending is the follow-on order to the initial set of Scorpenes, which by the way has run into delays and cost overruns, a headache for the IN.

[dragonfire]

The only large IN acquisition AFAIK pending is the follow-on order to the initial set of Scorpenes, which by the way has run into delays and cost overruns, a headache for the IN.

You mean the IN is supposed to have more than the 6 initialy ordered ? How many more do you think

I was assuming the Indo French Scorpene program was progressing without too many hiccups unlike lets say the AWACs program or the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

[Salty Dog]

You mean the IN is supposed to have more than the 6 initialy ordered ? How many more do you think

I was assuming the Indo French Scorpene program was progressing without too many hiccups unlike lets say the AWACs program or the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya

The initial six Sorpene SSK is under Project 75. The follow-on order for additional SSKs is Project 75A for next generation SSKs. Whilst India is constructing the hulls, the internals are coming from France which is practically doubling the price leading to the cost overruns and delays.

Navy’s sub project slips on time, climbs on cost (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Navys-Scorpene-project-slips-on-time/articleshow/4633090.cms)

[dragonfire]

The initial six Sorpene SSK is under Project 75. The follow-on order for additional SSKs is Project 75A for next generation SSKs. Whilst India is constructing the hulls, the internals are coming from France which is practically doubling the price leading to the cost overruns and delays.

Navy’s sub project slips on time, climbs on cost (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Navys-Scorpene-project-slips-on-time/articleshow/4633090.cms)

Thanks for the info SD

Well that will be a major focus area am sure for the new govt to sort out apart from the Gorshkov deal, the Min of Def has already made statements reg the deliveries of the AWACs earlier ordered

Am sure Teams would be leaving for france for negotiations pretty soon if that is the case

[Firn]

It seems that the Indian navy is truly falling behind when it comes to submarines, which I now consider to be one of the most efficient assets for a great deal of strategic and tactical tasks. Especially in concert with modern MPAs and AEW&C.

[La Royale]

FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.


Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a911807510~db=all?bios=true#b91180 7510)
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy under the guidance of Doctor Christophe Jaffrelot.

And

Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, Look East, and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a911807319~db=all?bios=true#b91180 7319)
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on
The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From Near Coast and Near Seas to Far Seas - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a911807485)
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College


Admin: Details added and enhanced

Biography: Nan Li is associate professor at the Strategic Research Department of the US Naval War College, Newport, Rhode Island, USA, and a member of its China Maritime Studies Institute.

[tphuang]

FYI for an “academic” view of the Navy from outside, there are two articles in the current issues of Asian Security that examine the fleet and broader issues in Asia.


Keeping the Dragon at Bay: India's Counter-Containment of China in Asia - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a911807510~db=all?bios=true#b91180 7510)
By Iskander Rehman, a PhD student enrolled in the Asia Program of the CERI (Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches Internationales) in Paris who is currently preparing a thesis on India's Navy and Maritime Strategy under the guidance of Doctor Christophe Jaffrelot.

And

Delhi's Pacific Ambition: Naval Power, Look East, and India's Emerging Influence in the Asia-Pacific - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a911807319~db=all?bios=true#b91180 7319)
By Walter Ladwig, a Predoctoral Fellow at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

In the same issues there is also an article on
The Evolution of China's Naval Strategy and Capabilities: From Near Coast and Near Seas to Far Seas - Asian Security (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a911807485)
by a professor at the U.S. Naval War College


Admin: Details added and enhanced

Biography: Nan Li is associate professor at the Strategic Research Department of the US Naval War College, Newport, Rhode Island, USA, and a member of its China Maritime Studies Institute.

I don't want to pay for those articles, so I will go with what I know.

How does India expect to contain PLAN at this point? A few years ago, you could still argue that IN was ahead of PLAN in terms of hardware. Other than a barely functional aircraft carrier, there really is no way you can argue that right now. And the gap is getting increasingly larger every year. With all the documented delays in the current projects like Scorpene, Project 15A, Shivalik, IAC, Adm G, it sounds like a lot of this will push IN modernization even further behind. We don't see any kind of delays in Chinese shipyards. And a lot of that has to do with Indian ships dependent on parts from other country. So, when Obama says I want to review all previous defense transactions, LM-2500 delivery gets postponed for a while. There simply isn't this problem for PLAN. Even if all the military shipyards in Russia and India are working for IN, it wouldn't be able to match the outputs in China.

[funtz]

I don't want to pay for those articles, so I will go with what I know.

How does India expect to contain PLAN at this point? A few years ago, you could still argue that IN was ahead of PLAN in terms of hardware. Other than a barely functional aircraft carrier, there really is no way you can argue that right now. And the gap is getting increasingly larger every year.

With all the documented delays in the current projects like Scorpene, Project 15A, Shivalik, IAC, Adm G, it sounds like a lot of this will push IN modernization even further behind. We don't see any kind of delays in Chinese shipyards.

And a lot of that has to do with Indian ships dependent on parts from other country. So, when Obama says I want to review all previous defense transactions, LM-2500 delivery gets postponed for a while. There simply isn't this problem for PLAN.

Even if all the military shipyards in Russia and India are working for IN, it wouldn't be able to match the outputs in China.
I think you keep on forgetting what India is investing into with all the delayed projects, ship building capacity, and there was not much capacity before these projects, reading about the changes in hardware specs on a project like the P-15A will a much better Idea

buying from non russian sources brings in a lot of very cutting edge tech.

Why would anyone think IN is going to match PLAN ship for ship?
Exactly how many PLAN vessels are present in the IOR region right now?

[dragonfire]

It seems that the Indian navy is truly falling behind when it comes to submarines, which I now consider to be one of the most efficient assets for a great deal of strategic and tactical tasks. Especially in concert with modern MPAs and AEW&C.

I completely agree on this point, woefuly insufficent and outdated as it is


Why would anyone think IN is going to match PLAN ship for ship?
Exactly how many PLAN vessels are present in the IOR region right now?

Yeah that's a joke when is India ever going to have 60 subs that PLAN has :D

But I have to agree that inorder to contain the PLAN the IN doesnt need to match up on a asset to asset to basis, it can focus instead on denial of access to IOR

Any conflict btw India and China will primarily be focused on the Armies and the Air Forces (remember in the last conflict not even the air force was used by either country - although ostensibly to contain the conflict from going more broad based)

[funtz]

But I have to agree that inorder to contain the PLAN the IN doesnt need to match up on a asset to asset to basis, it can focus instead on denial of access to IOR

Any conflict btw India and China will primarily be focused on the Armies and the Air Forces (remember in the last conflict not even the air force was used by either country - although ostensibly to contain the conflict from going more broad based)
IOR is a huge place, and why will IN deny acess to anyone, it doesnot own the place.

The only areas where any conflict can take place are real high mountains, and the troop numbers are already matched evenly, might be too tough a deal to attempt for any side.

Besides, its difficult to see a conflict between PRC and India, there is nothing to fight for.

[Firn]

I completely agree on this point, woefuly insufficent and outdated as it is

Care to explain?

As far as I know it is on a global scale and in SEA more urgent and fresh than ever in the last 20 years at least.

[dragonfire]

Care to explain?

As far as I know it is on a global scale and in SEA more urgent and fresh than ever in the last 20 years at least.

I meant I agree that IN has very less number of submarines and that the ones it has are outdated (we still have a Couple of Foxtrot class subs!!) and the ones that are in service are often rendered useless beacuse of time consuming overhauls and maint.

[dragonfire]

IOR is a huge place, and why will IN deny acess to anyone, it doesnot own the place.

We are discussing this only keeping in mind a flare up btw the two countries or during a war to prevent PLAN naval assets from affecting the Indian Millitary assets or the country itself


The only areas where any conflict can take place are real high mountains, and the troop numbers are already matched evenly, might be too tough a deal to attempt for any side.

Besides, its difficult to see a conflict between PRC and India, there is nothing to fight for.

We agree on this point, however very recently there has been (in the past two weeks) some troop build up/posturing. The chinese media is projecting this as an aggressive move by India