Russia to Lease Shchuka-B Class Submarines to India

[Bang-Bang]

Russia could lease several Shchuka-B class nuclear attack submarines to India in coming years, a top official here said though the delivery of the first of the two nuke subs reportedly contracted by India is far behind schedule.

At the same time, the official had ruled out any plans by Moscow to strike similar deals with China.

"Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class," the Director of Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) Mikhail Dmitriyev was quoted as saying by ITAR-TASS.

The Russian offer comes as Indian Navy has formulated a 20 year plan to produce indigenously 24 conventional submarines. New Delhi had also contracted for two nuclear submarines from Moscow, but navy has projected that in the next 10 years India would need to acquire or build another 10-12 nuclear subs. These nuclear submarines would be similar to the 'Nerpa'class, which was involved in an accident in November during final sea trials in Sea of Japan.

"This possibility can materialise in the coming years," he added. Dmitriyev also denied that Moscow was negotiating supply of nuclear submarines to China. "The question of supply of our multi role nuclear submarines to China does not exist, as unlike India, China never asked for them. That’s why we never negotiated with China on their lease or sale," Dmitriyev said. "This issue was also not raised at the Russian-Chinese Intergovernmental Commission session on December 11 in Beijing," he said.


Source : http://www.*************.com/reports-4110

[Iam]

"At the same time, the official had ruled out any plans by Moscow to strike similar deals with China."

What is moscow playing here with, as if the chinese have made any efforts to lease russian nuke subs. They have their own, and as far as can be seen, even if the russians do lease to chinese (which they wont), they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

[Feanor]

Well duh. He posted

"The question of supply of our multi role nuclear submarines to China does not exist, as unlike India, China never asked for them. That’s why we never negotiated with China on their lease or sale," Dmitriyev said.

So Russia isn't playing with anything. It's been said quite openly.

[Type59]

There is an obvious reason why India needs to lease. India's Nuclear submarine program is lagging. The ATV submarine that still in development has been claimed to be only a tech demostrator (http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/12/prowler-of-deep.html)

China needs cooperation to improve their submarines. The Han and Shang have benefited from Russian help in certain areas. Exact details are unknown.

[RAAFmate]

In november this year while completing sea trials to make the submarine ready for the indian navy one of these subs sank... not so sure if india will want to lease these subs anymore..

[dragonfire]

On 27 October 2008, it was reported that the Akula-II submarine K-152 Nerpa of the Russian Pacific Fleet had begun her sea trials in the Sea of Japan before handover under a lease agreement to the Indian Navy. On 8 November 2008, while conducting one of these trials, an accidental activation of the freon-based fire-extinguishing system took place in the fore section of the vessel. As a result, 20 people (17 civilians and 3 seamen)were killed by asphyxiation. The submarine itself did not sustain any serious damage and there was no release of radiation.

The Akula II class subs are sufficently new (the Nerpa - which will become INS Chakra) they are the most silent amongst all Russian Nuc Attack subs in operation

[Feanor]

In november this year while completing sea trials to make the submarine ready for the indian navy one of these subs sank... not so sure if india will want to lease these subs anymore..

Please post a source. I don't recall any Russian naval accident involving sinking of submarine recently, and it would have been big news.

[kev 99]

In november this year while completing sea trials to make the submarine ready for the indian navy one of these subs sank... not so sure if india will want to lease these subs anymore..

No it didn't, a fire onboard killed 20 odd people while it was submerged.

[funtz]

There is an obvious reason why India needs to lease. India's Nuclear submarine program is lagging. The ATV submarine that still in development has been claimed to be only a tech demostrator
(http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2008/12/prowler-of-deep.html)

China needs cooperation to improve their submarines. The Han and Shang have benefited from Russian help in certain areas. Exact details are unknown.
The Russian assets can a priceless tool for training while the indian nuclear submarine program becomes operational, IN is a responsible force whatever limitations Russia places (for example Russia might ask for the Submarine to not be involved in any hostile action) will be followed to the word.

The Program will take time to get operational, IN is not going to declare a untested first in class program a warship without carrying out a few tests first.

In november this year while completing sea trials to make the submarine ready for the indian navy one of these subs sank... not so sure if india will want to lease these subs anymore..
The only submarine to sink was a Charlie class, it sank twice, the number was K429.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/theater/670.htm

and it was not the one leased to India, India leased a Charlie I Class it as No.K43
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Charlie-I.html

And back in November a unfortunate accident happened on board Nerpa which was in no way the same as a sinking boat.

[SkolZkiy]

Nerpa was told not to be leased to India but after seatrials will be put in service in RuNAVY - it was told here already and links for this posted.

[Feanor]

But Indians are interested in leasing a boat of that class.

[SkolZkiy]

Yes but I don't think this class boat will be leased soon. because VMF has a lack of new subs right now, this one of the best subs so doubtfully - may be RuVMF will lease one the subs which are in service right now, I mean not last midifications and older.

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

from that article is sounds like the India is still lagging in nuclear submarine technology. talks with China for leasing nuclear submarine, thats a false statement. If india wants to say they are emerging superpowers like china then they really need to get a move on. leasing aircraft carriers, submarines or asking another nation to fill in the gap doesnt give an impression of rising superpower.

china has already began production of their current nuclear submarine the 093 & 094, with 3x093 and 2x094 and from mainland forums and articles it seems that though their currently only recently introducing these modern newly built nuclear submarine their is a porject for the next generation of Chinese nuclear submarines. So i find that statement abit wild and misleading.

[dragonfire]

China has a leagacy of nuc-sub development and has developed(ing) diff classes of subs starting from the HAN class which was in development for 20 yrs. Since then they have developed(Han, Xia, Jia and Shang classes) with perhaps 10 + boats either developed or in development. India was fixated on surface combatants and therefore the emphasis on the air craft carriers where it has an edge over china (perhaps soon to be lost). The Indian ATV project has been in development for over 25 yrs and in Jan09 it is to be showcased, however India has previously leased a charlie class nuc-sub from russia btw 1988-1991, the sub was named INS Chakra, post the three year lease the sub was returned to russia, the limited (limited because the reactor was operated by russians) operational knowledge gained has since then been lost due to the time gap. The Nerpa will be rechristened INS Chakra when commisioned for its 10 yr lease in the IN. there would be 2nd or perhaps 3rd Akula class sub which will be leased to india for which 2 Billion dollars has changed hands. The subs in all probability will be bought over post the maturity of the lease period (india has actualy paid for the completion of these subs)

[ReAl PrOeLiTeZ]

though that said india even with a carrier in its inventory, is still a foreign one. and another one still in refurbish in Russian docks, does not equate to domestic capability and sustainability. Chinese submarines are most largely domestic. The gap between China and India in carrier technology isnt a significant one, but the valuable carrier operation experience is important. Even if your building capabilities (India) isnt capable yet, at least you have experience in operating carrier groups when your own carrier is commisioned.

[Feanor]

though that said india even with a carrier in its inventory, is still a foreign one. and another one still in refurbish in Russian docks, does not equate to domestic capability and sustainability. Chinese submarines are most largely domestic. The gap between China and India in carrier technology isnt a significant one, but the valuable carrier operation experience is important. Even if your building capabilities (India) isnt capable yet, at least you have experience in operating carrier groups when your own carrier is commisioned.

Please stay on topic. This thread is about the potential lease of a specific type of submarine from Russia to India.

[dragonfire]

though that said india even with a carrier in its inventory, is still a foreign one. and another one still in refurbish in Russian docks, does not equate to domestic capability and sustainability.

I would differ from your opinion beacuse of the fact that IN has ordered and is building the first domestic built air craft carrier at the Cochin Shipyard with a displacement of approx 37K tons an will soon announce (there have speculations and some reports) that it will build a second carrier with a displacement of approx 70K tons. That means that india would be operating 3carrier groups in the next decade and two of them indian built

just wanted to emphasize on indias capability as per post

[Feanor]

Guys there is a thread on the Indian Navy. There is also one about the Chinese carrier program, and how it compares to the Indian one. Take the discussion to an appropriate thread. Thanks.

[dragonfire]

Feanor - The thread - Indian Navy News and Discussions has been temp closed pending mod decision by gf0012-aust, would request if the same can be reopened as i wanted to start a discussion on the needs of the IN just like the one on the IAF, which by the way you locked as such, can i start a new thread in the naval section on IN ?

[Feanor]

You've already made a new thread like that, as I see. Try to keep it on topic, and make sure it doesn't turn into a newsfeed. Add your own commentary and input.

[dragonfire]

The launch of the Indian indigenious ATV nuc-sub has been delayed from Jan09 to mid of 2009 as per a report on 02Jan09. The IN has projected needs to have 10-12 nuc-subs in the next 10 years. The ATV project is for 3 subs and it is taken so much time already and not even the first one is launched yet. The lease is for 2 subs which will then be perhaps retained in the IN inventory. which means in ten years it looks like IN is getting only 5 subs. Unless India decides to expnd this project and order additional subs it doesnt look like the IN needs are getting fulfilled.

I say lets not have 10-12 lets have 18 nuc-subs

[Feanor]

What are you basing your need assesment on?

[dragonfire]

What are you basing your need assesment on?

Ok there are three naval commands in India - am thinking each command gets 5 nuc-subs each and the nuclear command gets three as a second strike capability (armed with nuke missiles ofcourse). Now while out of 5 - 3 could be used for domestic patrolling or medium range missions the fourth one is on long range missions patrolling global waters and one may/maynot be in refit, main, repair, upgrade etc etc

[dragonfire]

news update

Russia indefinitely puts off delivery of nuke subs to India

Moscow, Jan 21 (PTI) In what could be a major set back for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.
"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/947C64D07D6AE24365257545003B041F?OpenDocument

Well yet another roadblock in Indias desperate attempts to acquire nuc-subs. Increasingly one can observe issues cropping up btw India and russia on arms procurement deals, gorshkov was revalued, the mig-29 upgrade deal was revauled, only one russian fighter was fielded in the MMRCA competition, this is probably going to affect indias decision for the order for 6 conventional subs for which currently Amur class and HDW 214 is competing

[lalitghag]

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