Tu95 crash in August 1976 in Sargasso sea

[ghost]

Hi,
I'm looking for any info about the crash of Soviet Tu-95 bomber in August, 1976 in Sargasso sea. It was supposed to be a flight from Cuba to USSR.
The top-secret recovery operation was organized by Russian Navy within 290 miles from Newfoundland.

[nevidimka]

What was the cargo that needed a top secret recovery operation?

[ghost]

what Was The Cargo That Needed A Top Secret Recovery Operation?

Я ищу кого-то с "той" стороны. Извини, брат, ты врят-ли в теме.
Пытаюсь помочь.

[ASFC]

In English please??

[ghost]

In English please??

I'm trying to find anybody who may know something about what cased the crash. This is my topic. As you may see it's people who are around 50 y.o. or older now.
The flight plan was to fly directly to USSR. However the plane crashed in another area.

To discuss the rescue operation or what was aboard - it's another topic.

[Feanor]

So first you said that you're looking for any info and then you dismiss all info other then the causes of the crash? :) Anyways a fiarlsy intensive search turned up nothing on the internet. I'll dig around some more, but this thread in our forum was at the top of the search list.

[Firehorse]

Have you tried to find someone in the know in Russian forums/blogs? I also would like to learn what happened with that TU-95 (http://www.breitbart.com/print.php?id=upiUPI-20081027-133333-1191&show_article=1). Especially since the civilian derivative, the Tu-114, had very good safety record (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/tu-114-service.htm).

[ghost]

One other hint. There were two Tu-95 flying together. After the crash the second one returned to Cuba.
Even now after 33 years the relatives of the crashed plane can't get any info from Russian government.

[ghost]

Have you tried to find someone in the know in Russian forums/blogs? I also would like to learn what happened with that TU-95 (http://www.breitbart.com/print.php?id=upiUPI-20081027-133333-1191&show_article=1). Especially since the civilian derivative, the Tu-114, had very good safety record (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/tu-114-service.htm).

Do you want to know what happened to one out of four remaining Tu-114 which was installed in Domodedovo airport in Moscow as a monument?
Few years ago a new owner of the airport :):):) decided that the plane takes too much space and they need it to build a new parking... The plane was cut into pieces and sent to the garbage

[ASFC]

One other hint. There were two Tu-95 flying together. After the crash the second one returned to Cuba.


Hang on a minute....first you want any info, then you only want certain info, and now it seems you know as much available info that there is and playing a guessing game with other posters. :confused: :unknown

Even now after 33 years the relatives of the crashed plane can't get any info from Russian government.

There is your answer then. If the Russian Govt are still keeping quiet then the likelyhood of any new information just'turning up' is unlikely unless they declassify the material they hold.

[ghost]

Hang on a minute....first you want any info, then you only want certain info, and now it seems you know as much available info that there is and playing a guessing game with other posters. :confused: :unknown



There is your answer then. If the Russian Govt are still keeping quiet then the likelyhood of any new information just'turning up' is unlikely unless they declassify the material they hold.

You may take it as you want.
I'm just trying to help people to find out about the deaths of their fathers. That's it.

[ASFC]

I'm just trying to help people to find out about the deaths of their fathers. That's it.

Why didn't you say that from the start?

Seriously though, unless the Russian Govt changes their stance on any information they hold, then we are just down to discussing consipiracy theories which will muddy the waters even more.

[Feanor]

Hang on. Ghost I've found almost no info on the crash at all. Do you have any source of information that would be able to confirm that this crash indeed did happen? The only thing I've found on the internet was this:

Катастрофа самолета Ту-95 05 октября 1976 года (экипаж Мальцева)

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/7109/da.html

Here's a link to the main site. Do you know the name of the captain of the plane?

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Campus/7109/

EDIT: I just read your original post and you're asking for a crash in August of '76. Again do you have any source of real information that can confirm that this crash did indeed happen?

[ghost]

самолет ТУ-95РЦ 392 ОДРАП Северного Флота военного гарнизона Федотово (Кипелово,Вологда-18) в августе 1976г. в районе Саргассового моря (Атлантика,Бермуды,на удалении 230 миль от о.Ньюфаундленд).Бортовые номера этого самолета:№ 66МРТС304, по-гарнизону Кипелово- №17.Весь экипаж погиб.

Состав погибшего экипажа:

Командир-пилот 2-го класса (по другим данным-1-й класс?),майор Красносельских Аркадий.И.
Второй пилот-капитан Гарынычев Федор Е.
Главный штурман-навигатор корабля-капитан Бычков Александр Филиппович.,штурман Отряда гарнизона Кипелово,1класс.,выпускник ЧВВАКУШ 1967г.
Бортинженер-капитан Скороходов Л.И.
ст.лейтенант Позняк В.А.
ст.лейтенант Васильев Н.Ф.
ст.лейтенант Лебедев Е.Н.
прапорщик Трифонов М.Н.
прапорщик Грибалев В.И.
прапорщик Тараненко А.И.
курсант Колибабчук В.М.

1.В документальном фильме "Загруженные смертью" (серия №14 сериала "Красные Звёзды") про эту катастрофу сказано дословно следующее:

"...советский ТУ-95РЦ погиб при невыясненных обстоятельствах в результате столкновения с американским самолетом Ф-15.Оба экипажа погибли..."

Could it be that there was a collision with F-15 or another interceptor? Is there any info from that side available?

Admin: Please note that this is an international forum where the principle language is english. If you provide references in other languages then it's important that you provide a translation with it as well.

[Feanor]

I've found nothing on that accident on the web. No mentionings. This is very strange. Either our gov. has done a very good job of keeping things quiet, or I don't even know what happened.

[gf0012-aust]

Have you tried to find someone in the know in Russian forums/blogs? I also would like to learn what happened with that TU-95 (http://www.breitbart.com/print.php?id=upiUPI-20081027-133333-1191&show_article=1). Especially since the civilian derivative, the Tu-114, had very good safety record (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/tu-114-service.htm).

hmmm, I have a strong doubt about the intentions and accuracy of that editor. their command of english doesn't help in the loss of accurate translation.



But, the Cleats were commercially in service for only a total of 14 years
planes were taken off service after 14,000 hours.
assuming that they did medium haul service (1000 hrs) -that means 6hr return flights - or less than 50% availability in a flight calendar year.


IIRC the benchmark for Starlifters was against piston engined Lockheed Globestars which averaged 164,000 flying hours (same operational generation)

So for the Cleat, that's hardly anything to get excited about when compared to super constellations or super globemasters etc... which were trans and intercontinental

[Firehorse]

One Aeroflot pilot told me in '81 that TU-114s had some vibration problems and were thus taken out of commercial service. It could also be due to exsessive noise levels in the cabin. But in the N/AF TU-95/142s been modified and are going to stay till 2040 (http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Aging_Tu-95_Nuclear_Missile_Platform_Offers_New_Strategic_T hreat_999.html).
Interestingly, AN-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-10)had a short career, but AN-12s/Y-8s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-12)are still in service!

[gf0012-aust]

Interestingly, AN-10s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-10)had a short career, but AN-12s/Y-8s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-12)are still in service!

So are DC3's. The issue is not whether they are certified/registered for service by the local aviation authority - its how many hours they're doing per annum - and more to the point, whether they're cleared by IATA

[kato]

Or the Do-28A... the Dash-4... well, one could go on and on.

All a matter of proper registration and restrictions - or lack of it, in some regions of the world.

[Salty Dog]

Here's something I found, different years and third hand info, but could be a lead for you:

General » Bermuda Triangle Forum » A Sea Story from '80s-a Tu-95 Bear is lost
http://bermudatriangle.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=31
A Sea Story from '80s-a Tu-95 Bear is lost
Post by mattwiser on Jun 7, 2004, 1:59am

Call this a sea/air story, but I heard this from a cousin who is a USN F/A-18 Hornet pilot (one of the first women to go to sea and fly off a carrier in combat). She told me that her squadron CO before her first cruise in 1995 stated to her and the other new pilots in the squadron that there was more to the Triangle than meets the eye. He was an ensign at the time on a carrier headed for a Med deployment in either 1980 or '81 when a Tu-95 Bear-D MR aircraft came down from Murmansk (Kola Peninsula), flew between Iceland and the UK, and into the Atlantic to look for the carrier. My cousin's CO flew A-7s at the time, and he and his CO launched with two F-14s to intercept. (The A-7s were rigged as buddy refueling tankers to back up the KA-6Ds) They intercepted the Bear, and as they approached the carrier, the Americans and Russians were talking on GUARD and the Russians were asking what it's like to be on a carrier, and the Americans were asking the Russians if they'd screwed up to get assigned to Kola. The A-7 CO then said:
"Hey Ivan, do you guys know that on your way to Havana you'll be flying thru the Bermuda Triangle?"
One of the Russians-either a diehard communist or a Political Officer with NO sense of Humor responded:
"The Bermuda Triangle is nothing but a tool the Capitalists use to scare the masses!"
"OK Ivan. If that's the way you feel...But if you run into something, and your instruments go out and your compasses start spinning, don't say I didn't warn you."Everyone had a laugh and as the Russians flew off towards Cuba, the Tomcats and A-7s headed back to the carrier. The next day they got a message from LANTFLT in Norfolk asking for the Bear's last known position, course, airspeed, altitude, and condition. They asked for a reason and were told that the Soviet Naval Attache was in Norfolk with a request for information-the Bear had not arrived in Cuba-No SOS, nothing. Several Soviet merchant ships went to the area, along with a number of Soviet subs, the Soviet Navy's Caribbean Flotilla from Cuba (only a cruiser, destroyer, and a supply ship), and several Bears already in Cuba. Other Bears came up from Angola, while a few more came down from Murmansk. Of course the Navy and Coast Guard watched the Russians, while searching themselves-despite the Cold War, the code of the Sea still applied-people were out there in trouble, and politics is secondary. A week of searching turned up the usual-no wreckage, no bodies, no life rafts/jackets, no oil slick (Bears carry a LOT of fuel), no nothing. This was a Bear-D Maritime Recon plane, not a Bear-F ASW aircraft, as the Big Bulge Radar fills the weapons bay. Only thing they found unusual was a P-3 crew seeing what they thought was a green flare-but this flare stopped, and then sped off. The carrier's planes went searching as well-they didn't find a thing (or see anything unusual).

[Firehorse]

1976 - Soviet strategic bomber with nuclear weapon on the board fell in the Sea of Okhotsk. American submarine was the first to get to it and to steal two nuclear bombs from the sea bottom.
August 5, 1976 - Soviet reconnaissance aircraft on the way back from Cuba fell in the ocean near Newfoundland.
..February 18, 1985 - Soviet nuclear bomber "TU 95" failed near military base in Vietnam. Six deaths.
http://www.ecoethics.ru/b32/151.html

If it happened in the Sargasso Sea, wich is farther south, it wouldn't be "near Newfoundland". There could be other crashes of NAF TU-95s, not listed in the site, but I was unable to find it out on the Net, both in Russian and English. The recon Bear off US E.Coast most probably was one of the NAF variants then in use:
Tu-95RTs - Razvedchik Tseleukazatel - Variant of the basic Bear A configuration, redesigned for maritime reconnaissance and targeting as well as electronic intelligence (ELINT) for service in the Soviet Naval Aviation. Known to NATO as the Bear-D.
Tu-95MR - Bear A modified for photo-reconnaissance and produced for Naval Aviation. Known to NATO as the Bear-E. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95#Variants_and_Derivatives

[Firehorse]

I also think that the US could have tried to salvage the wreckage, or at least inspect it, as was done with other sunken subs/planes before. Anyways, 230 miles off Newfoundland is not "near" Newfoundland.
During intercepts by US fighters either one could have lost contol in the turbulence, even without reckless flying. Collisions happened in close formations before. I suspect that both sides know more but don't want to stirr things up, for reasons known only to themselves. Hopefully we will find out what had happened there soon enough!

[nevidimka]

I saw an article which said shooting down of each other's air force plane is not uncommon as you think. US has shot down Soviet planes and vice versa during recon missions. This 1 probably could have been shot down as well?

[gf0012-aust]

I saw an article which said shooting down of each other's air force plane is not uncommon as you think. US has shot down Soviet planes and vice versa during recon missions. This 1 probably could have been shot down as well?

actually it's more like the other way around. The USSR. North Korea and China IIRC have shot down over 53 aircraft in "non combatant" situations since the end of WW2 to present.

There was a site which was a memorial to all US aircrew lost in cold war incidents and detailed all the events, but I no longer have it saved.

[nevidimka]

This is the article I was talking about. I think it makes sense if more US planes were shot, because US were doing a lot more Reccon mission close to Soviet Border during the Cold war, plus many of these planes that were shot down, were actually on reccon mission as admitted by US.

http://air-combat.suite101.com/article.cfm/soviet_and_us_air_combat_19501991

[Firehorse]

There is a very good book on the subject of the US-FSU Cold War casualties.

I also remember "Wings" documentary on the Discovery channel- it mentioned that "after a unit of new MiG-31s was sent to Kamchatka, the number of recon flights near Far East Soviet airspace reduced drasticly". AFAIK, the Soviet recon aircraft didn't come as close to the US airspace as the American ones came to the FSU airspace.

[gf0012-aust]

I also remember "Wings" documentary on the Discovery channel- it mentioned that "after a unit of new MiG-31s was sent to Kamchatka, the number of recon flights near Far East Soviet airspace reduced drasticly". AFAIK, the Soviet recon aircraft didn't come as close to the US airspace as the American ones came to the FSU airspace.

Wings is not exactly a useful reference - it's a video version of Wikipedia at a QA level.

The frequency of US ferret runs and overflights is directly linked to technology shifts in the US

ie post ww2 to 1948 was using B45 Tornados - awful tech, but useful until the russians got their Nene modified jets in the air
1948-53 it was via the RAF using EE canberras - and then modified hi-alt canberras as the soviets couldn't reach them. so they went lo alt and then high alt within 5 years
1954-59 the US used modified licences built canberras - again hi-alt mods
also the use of U2's as a purpose built hi-alt solution. the first sub-atmospheric overflights
1959 was the start of mach 3 overflights to counter russian GBAD after Powers was shot down. Never intercepted once
in 1972 hi-speed overflights over russia were pulled as keyhole and its brethren came into play. US hi-speed overflights were restricted to Vietnam AO

basically every mission after the late 70's was a satellite job. reason? 10 times the coverage in longer pass and continuous overlap available if the constellation was timed.

the Mig31 never impacted upon overflights as the US had made the decision years before (a decade before) to run with satellites where the images were easier to take, pilots were not at risk, and where more extensive footage was able to be harvested.

so, Wings is way off track (by nearly 10-15 years)

[Firehorse]

They were talking not about overflights, but EP-3 South China Sea- style snooping by RC-135 (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=121), and other types (http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/command/rc135-command_planes.htm). In another book, it says that after the U-2 shutdown all deliberate oveflights of the USSR stopped, but recon flights around the perimeter continued and in fact, as I recall, increased. Sat. coverage is not always good enough, and the Soviets changed their routine while they were known to be passing overhead.
More info. on casualties here-
http://www.larrytart.com/faq07.html

[gf0012-aust]

They were talking not about overflights, but EP-3 South China Sea- style snooping by RC-135 (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=121), and other types (http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/command/rc135-command_planes.htm). In another book (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Flights-Americas-Secret-Against/dp/0891417680/ref=sr_1_3/186-2963326-2041134?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228696545&sr=1-3), it says that after the U-2 shutdown all deliberate oveflights of the USSR stopped, but recon flights around the perimeter continued and in fact, as I recall, increased. Sat. coverage is not always good enough, and the Soviets changed their routine while they were known to be passing overhead.
More info. on casualties here-
http://www.larrytart.com/faq07.html


How about reading my comments properly?

Overflights by manned aircraft over Russian territory finished in the early 70's
Manned flights were then conducted using different tech (racetrack harvests) from that point on
Satellites and Blackbird were used because they were no longer prepared to risk manned subsonic overflights after Garry Powers
Blackbird flights were suspended once keyhole was launched. Over 2000 attempts were made to shoot down Blackbirds - NONE succeeded.
early satellites were not constellations - so they were subject to gaps. hence why satellites in constellations are racetracked where there is a critical
surveillance issue


you do realise that a lot of those times when the soviets thought that satellites were ineffectual at night etc were negated by different systems.

the reason why racetracks were run rather than ferrets was because the mission harvesting details were different. what was being looked for was not platform and systems placement - but emissions for harvesting.

different requirement - different platforms to do the job.

eg a Blackbird can capture emissions as well as harvest images - bit it cannot harvest the same spectrum detail as a larger jet.

The issue of perimeter harvests was begun soon after the U2 was downed - ie via platforms such as E/W/RC-121's our of guam

[Firehorse]

Well, thanks for the info.
SR-71, or any other Mac 3 plane, was never intercepted by Mac3+ MiG-25 (which itself overflew Israel with impunity)? Perhaps they overflew them for only few sec/min., and the Soviets decided not to bother?

V.Belenko stated that the plan was to position a MiG-25 in below & front of SR-71, and then shoot at it as soon it passes, but their computers weren't good enough for that.

Admin: Off topic material deleted.What is the matter with you? You have been persistently asked by both myself and other Mods to stay on track and not wander off and discuss irrelevant material. - And some of it is by other Mods very very recently. You have been given more chances than anyone else with respect to second chances. You are either deliberately ignoring requests or completely unwilling to listen to requests.



You're on holiday permanently

[ghost]

They were talking not about overflights, but EP-3 South China Sea- style snooping by RC-135 (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=121), and other types (http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/command/rc135-command_planes.htm). In another book (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Flights-Americas-Secret-Against/dp/0891417680/ref=sr_1_3/186-2963326-2041134?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228696545&sr=1-3), it says that after the U-2 shutdown all deliberate oveflights of the USSR stopped, but recon flights around the perimeter continued and in fact, as I recall, increased. Sat. coverage is not always good enough, and the Soviets changed their routine while they were known to be passing overhead.
More info. on casualties here-
http://www.larrytart.com/faq07.html

Hey guys, come on!

Interception is a daily routine. On Far East of Russia in mid 80-s - early 90-s Su-27 were called to intercept few times A DAY!!!

I served in the Army 20+ years ago. Admin: One of the things that we request of people claiming prior military service is that they provide supporting evidence so that it can be verified. Please PM either myself or one of the other Mods with your discharge papers and other relevant material so that we can follow it up. As you can appreciate, we need to ensure that people can support their claims as its a question of credibility and quality control.


American TR-1, RC-135, E-3A and SR-71 were flying around USSR daily!!! Some days there were 12 E-13 only flying from the airbase in Germany (if my memory of the location of AFB is correct now :p:). And I've met my old friend SR-71 from Mildenhall AFB recently in the Air Force museum in Dayton.
Nobody was shooting anybody. It was just a daily routine. I also doubt that during the Cold War Russian pilots could speak English fluent enough to discuss the Bermuda Triangle with Americans. They new some basic words necessary to communicate with the international command posts. That's it. But...may be you are right. To fly to Cuba probably required to have a KGB officer on board anyway who could probably talk some English.

Thank you everybody for your attempt to help!

Good luck!

[gf0012-aust]

Nobody was shooting anybody.

For someone who professes to have served during this period, I find it extraordinary that you are apparently completely oblivious that over 53 american and british airmen lost their lives from 1945-current from either Soviet, Chinese or NorK contact. There is a documented list of incidents detailing these events that was researched by Polmar and then validated by Russian personnel after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

To say that nobody was shooting anybody is outright rubbish - one of the reasons for formally setting up the nightstalkers was so that americans could be recovered in hot events.

btw, SR-71 overflights of the USSR were stopped after 1972 due to Keyhole. I can provide you with the contact details of the flight planners and some of those pilots who ran those missions as he's a personal contact. SR-71 flights were maintained over areas like Vietnam and China - but only until they were also covered by constellation. IIRC (andI can check, the last continental overflight in "indian country" was in '79.

[OPSSG]

Hey guys, come on!

Interception is a daily routine. On Far East of Russia in mid 80-s - early 90-s Su-27 were called to intercept few times A DAY!!! Nobody was shooting anybody. It was just a daily routine. ...But...may be you are right. To fly to Cuba probably required to have a KGB officer on board anyway who could probably talk some English.

Thank you everybody for your attempt to help!

Good luck!

What do you mean by "Thank you everybody for your attempt to help!". Ghost like the banned Firehorse you are rude to one of our moderators. We appreciate the very good work they do on this forum.

I for one appreciate their work.

Many for us here have prior military backgrounds. On this forum most of us are respectful of the ultimate sacrifice made by military people (which ever side they fought on). Do not circulate untruths to sully these memories.

If you want to pass of untruths as facts (like the words I selected in bold) - please consider going elsewhere to post.

[gf0012-aust]

Closed pending Mod Discussion