Best Army in South Asia...

[dabrownguy]

Ok the contestents are Afganistan,Iraq,India,Pakistan,SriLanka,Banladesh and Nepal. kkkk. Lets just take out Afganistan, Sri Lanka and Nepal ok. MOG what was I thinking?
So now we have Pakistan, India, Banladesh so you rate the best army in terms of size, strike ability, training, equipment and guns.

[elkaboingo]

uhhhh, there only two options in the poll, and how did iraq bump its way into south asia :D you must mean iran.

[Indus]

[Admin Edit: The topic is Best ARMY in South Asia. DO NOT get into my dick is bigger than your dick contests here. These types of replies create flames and if you been visiting us long enough you know how much we hate flamers! Look at my signature, it will help you last longer on this forum.]


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[WebMaster]

Indus, I hope we can keep this nice and neat next time.

Thank You,

ENJOY!

[The Watcher]

Best army in these categories:

-Best Fed [Pakistan]
-Best Clothed
-[b]Best housed [pakistan] (last time i read something on Indian forces it said they live in slums!)
-Best Equipment [Pakistan, less in numbers but very well maintained]
-Best Trained [American training, pakistan]
-Best in Combat [1949, 65, 71, 99, pakistan]
-Best in Bravery [Pakistan and sikh regiments in Indian army] :D

[Majin-Vegeta]

umm..this may sound retarded...but is it true that Pakistan can make titanium cloth?? and their soldiers wear those?? :S i dunno..just thought..maybe..

[SHAKTI]

The Watcher: "Best in Combat [1949, 65, 71, 99, pakistan]"

Are you joking.?? WHy do you think India controls the bulk of Kashmir 60%, and Pak only 25% (the rest China). Pak was decisively defeated in 1971: thats why there is a country named Bangladesh. India helped Bangladesh receive its independence from pakistan. The 1999 Kargil War, PM Nawaz Sharif had to order retreat b/c Pak was being overwhelmed by Indian counter-attack after its incursion accross LoC. Dont sit there and proclaim things that are absolutely and factually false. I will give you that pak's army is probably better fed and housed, but again its a lot more difficult to maintain an Indian Army that is 1-million strong. The fact is pakistan has never won a war against India. The first two (1945 and '65) were obvious stalemates. THereafter pak has been beaten.

[ullu]

During Kargil, Pak pulled out because of US pressure otherwise Kashmiri Freedom Fighters had the upper hand...

Considering the 3000 body bags scandle, it was india who was overwhelmed by few hundred militants. :lol

[vathsan]

The best army in south asia is TAMIL TIGERS. Well trained, highly motivated, fight on to death. LTTE's abilities,

far smaller than any of the conventional armies(some may argue they're not army), i would say the are army because they have proven themselves in conventional combat(land warfare).

Courageous, no dessertions(very low), led by motivated commanders, very effective against a larger army.


Hey who said ltte's a terrorism, it was asked best army so who care's as long as the ability to kill efficiently is there. An armies purpose is not to baby sit, purpose of a well trained army is to annihiliate it's opponent with little cost. That's how u figure out which is the best army.

[ullu]

I don't think terrorism is best form of strategy. besides suicide bombings does not require "well training."

They have carried out more suicide terrorist attacks against Sri Lankans than Hamas, islamic jihad and al-aqsa COMBINED against israelis!!! Both parties are dead wrong and should come to their senses.

[Red aRRow]

Dude there are only two choices in your poll??? :( :(

and people lets keep it civilized shall we. :D

[Majin-Vegeta]

[Admin Edit: NO blind nationalistic nonsense. Debate and prove your point on basis of facts and make your points clear about WHY you think that backed by historical and current facts.

If you can't, try to following "the watchers" model:


-Best Fed
-Best Clothed
-Best housed
-Best Equipment
-Best Trained
-Best in Combat
-Best in Bravery

[dabrownguy]

I cant post pics!
But anyways I found a pretty good picture gallery of Indian Army:

Admin: This thread doesn't have anything to do with PICTURES. NO one is questioning that you post pictures. Discuss this topic with facts and figures. And if you want to post pictures, do that in image forum and don't post links to external FORUMS! If you have many pictures from another thread in another forum, just click "quote" on that post and then COPY the [img] tags and then post in the image forum if you will.
Please check your PM and reply.

Thank You!!! Enjoy!!!!!

[dabrownguy]

As my argument. My support is that India has a better army in terms of equipment, training, numbers and weapons.
Pakistan did have qualitative eadge over Inida 5-10 years ago but thanks to Isreal and Russia, India has the qualtative edge. Here are the things to consider. The Indian army is armed with INSAS family rifles and LMG. http://delivery.gettyimages.com/comp/2685465.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=6FC 26B94D0397D9691403B9D6205A37C
They are soon to acquire Isreal Torvak or something like that. Indian military is equiped with a wide variety of manpads from Russia and Isreal and some made in India. Some solidiers still use AK-47 rifles, that is because is has a lot more goods you can hook up. ie gernade launher. The Indian solideir is a lot more mobile than the Pakistani counterpart. There are a lot of vechiles in the Indian army for quick reaction. Any one know which company manufactures Indian military jeeps? is it TATA or Maruthi? And I don't understand the argument of which army is better fed? http://delivery.gettyimages.com/comp/2626390.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=DAE 6D7D8776A767DD61FB6DACCCA88C3
As for hows training is better I would have to say both are the same. Indian army isn't a militia. Indian army have a lot more elite units that can operate behind enemy lines now.
ARMY

1)Para -Commando-(six battalions)..air , water and land operations

2)Ikwanns-local kashmiri SF unit,tasked to pentrate terrorist groups and obtain information

3)Special frontier force- strength around 10,000,mainly made up of tibetians although in recent times there have been men drawn from other units for this force, tasked with conducting intelligence and armed raids inside chinese territory.

4)SSB(special service bureau)very little is known about this unit other than it is mainly an intelligence force with a commando force of 3 battalions.

5)SG I ,II & III-being raised in Israel .Will operate along the lines of US delta Force . News reports earlier this year Mentioned SG III ( special group 3) operating in Kashmir but the Army is being extremely tight lipped about it.

6)Ghatak platoons-Every Infantry Battalion has 2-3 Ghatak Plattons which are SF uints for Recon/scout duties and for directing in artelliry

7)Romeo , Victor, Delta force-SOF units of RR which is primarily a paramillitary Org. but the SOF personal are drawn from the Army. COIN operations.

8)Ladhaak scouts-LRRP , Recon Unit used in High Altitude Warfare . Also known as the ' head Hunters' . While not strictly a SF unit . It is Special Operations Capable


NAVY

1)MARCOS-marine commando force, raised from officers who got training with the navy seals and the sas, unit strength around 2500?,divided into three groups with all land, sea and air capability and one group concentrating on CT.

2)UDT/combat divers- strength rightly around 100-150? unit is responsible for underwater warfare, mine laying, demolition etc. members drawn from marcos.

AIRFORCE

1)Alpha Unit-modeled along the lines of the u.s para rescue.Specializes in SAR operations ( behind eny lines during wartime) . This unit was raised about 2 years ago. Apart from a few news articles and press realeases from MOD no more Info on it... (same name as special forces unit of russian spetnaz)

2)Garuda-Unit will be raised soon . Will Act as combat controllers for Bombing missions and act as anti-insurgency force to protect vital airforce Installations, raised supposedly by israel

3)Special Aviation Squad-Unit yet to be raised. But will be the Dedicated Air Arm of the special Forces under its Unified Command. Along the Lines of the 160th Night Stalkers of the Us Army



NOTE-recently certain reports indicate that a unit will be raised from excisting sf dedicated to nuclear situations, they could be trained to take out nuclear facilities in enemy countries also to dismantle and de activate nuclear weapons from sizes ranging from that of a suitcase, a unit has been sent to the u.s for training, although the mod is very tight lipped.

My conculsion is India is better equiped and trianed.

[gf0012-aust]

Admin Comment

SU-27, I realise you are proud of your country, but it would pay to always substantiate some of your claims. There are some glaring errors in some of your comments.

I don't want to go back and hilight them all in a response as that will start to look to you that I am being personal. I am not. I would criticise any one of the other posters if they also made some broad claims which were "enthusiastic". (as an example plse reconsider the statement about Indian sub capability and the issue of re-engineering compared to pakistani subs)

Can you please try and modify you enthusiasm to "make a point" by keeping things as accurate and verifiable with as many supporting links and sources as possible.

This is not a "shot" at you but a genuine attempt to have this kind of debate accurate and balanced as much as we can.


regards. gf

[Soldier]

dabrownguy: Any one know which company manufactures Indian military jeeps? is it TATA or Maruthi?


Indian Army uses three most common variation of Jeeps/SUV's as far as I know or have seen.
Jeep: Manufactured by Mahindra Auto
Jonga: Again manufactured by Mahindra
Maruti Gypsie: As name implies, it is manufactured by Maruti-Suzuki.

There are some special All Terrain vehicles too in the army but most likely they are being used in tough terrain conditions thus I could see them only on Himalayas. Most likely they are either imported or manufactured with some collaboration in India and are available only to Armed Forces.

Here is the link to see some of the products used by Indian Armed forces and exports too.
http://www.mahindraworld.com/mahindras/mahindrdefencesystem/products.htm

[Majin-Vegeta]

dude, go ahead and yap all you want, thing is..America/China or someone has to keep Pakistan and India EQUAL at power else there could be another war, both are untrustworthy when it comes to wars, therefore..this is how it is and this is how its equal to both sides..it doesnt matter wat quantity you have..

[gf0012-aust]

dabrownguy: Any one know which company manufactures Indian military jeeps? is it TATA or Maruthi?


Indian Army uses three most common variation of Jeeps/SUV's as far as I know or have seen.
Jeep: Manufactured by Mahindra Auto
Jonga: Again manufactured by Mahindra
Maruti Gypsie: As name implies, it is manufactured by Maruti-Suzuki.

There are some special All Terrain vehicles too in the army but most likely they are being used in tough terrain conditions thus I could see them only on Himalayas. Most likely they are either imported or manufactured with some collaboration in India and are available only to Armed Forces.

Here is the link to see some of the products used by Indian Armed forces and exports too.
http://www.mahindraworld.com/mahindras/mahindrdefencesystem/products.htm

I drove a Mahindra in Pune some 9 months ago - it seemed to be like either a Toyota or a Mitsubishi - it was designed like a Pajero.

I drove another model which was supposed to be a Tata and was similar to a "squarish" looking toyota.

I think I also drove in a Sandro. It was pretty ordinary to travel in though - not a very good 4wd.

Does anyone from India know what it was?

[dabrownguy]

su-37 man i was talking about army not navy,and airforce.

[The Watcher]

su-37 needs some serious help.

[Majin-Vegeta]

someone wit good Pakistan military knowledge needs to take em down >_< from wat my dad told me..Pakistani soldiers forced indian soldiers to surrender but wat do we know..were stupid right? -_-'

anyone know? it feels like pakistan sux in here..:S

[WebMaster]

SU37, check your PM.

I have deleted SU's irrelevent crap.

This message is for everyone:

If your reply does NOT match the TOPIC being discussed, it will be DELETED/EDITED without any warning! Do not post irrelevent BS.

Read the topic heading and reply accordingly. Don't make me change the FONT size on topic title so you would see what the damn topic is about!

Do read the rules, it will helps you help us:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

ENJOY!!!

[elkaboingo]

Best army in these categories:

-Best Fed [Pakistan]
-Best Clothed
-[b]Best housed [pakistan] (last time i read something on Indian forces it said they live in slums!)
-Best Equipment [Pakistan, less in numbers but very well maintained]
-Best Trained [American training, pakistan]
-Best in Combat [1949, 65, 71, 99, pakistan]
-Best in Bravery [Pakistan and sikh regiments in Indian army] :D

i just have one thing to contest. i dont know how the indians are fed, but it must be pretty bad if its worse than ours. in most pics ive seen of pak troops, they look awfully skinny compared to other trooops.

[Majin-Vegeta]

so? im skinny >_< muscles are useless and just take up weight dude..they have nothing to do with power :) the strength comes from within and from faith...anyways..i still believe that Pakistan never surrendered and never had to..instead India had to surrender ITS military in previous wars, and talking bout Pakistani Generals being stupid..well wat kinda strategy was it when india deployed 600 tanks over **** border and they went BOOM :)..no offense or rudeness..just replying to SU for saying Pakistani are stupid..Pakistan also beat russia in the Afghan war..i read bout it a while ago..Pakistan was actually planning on Finishing Russia..but America said not to go any further :( damn :P

thats all the knowledge i have :S ill see wat more i can uncover..seems to me either many sites LIE or..Pakistani military is just very weak and surrendered in every war(which i dont believe because my dad says Pakistan has won every war, unless you count giving freedom to Pakistan East as a victory..)

[WebMaster]

Majin, you are not suppose to list classified information. :P

[Majin-Vegeta]

dude, SU >_< thats it..i swear if he lies again..i will beg u to ban him :D ppl say that Pakistani Air force has high standards, in every way superior to IAF, where theres regular crashes..and well, ive heard that too sometimes..secondly, ive heard that Indian army are even scared of going into kashmir cuz they have defected shells..and we have more things like Baktar Shikan,MBRLs and our SP , towed gus are much better than india. The Indian Army have T-90 and T-72and some more russians Ts the most advance is there T-90 and Al-khalid is much more better than that.

Now to the reason why pakistan lost many wars is because Pakistan just started out!!, think about it..its a poor 56 year old country :(, They didnt even have an army in the 65 war! and still won >_< but with insufficient ammo and other stuff..they failed to win the wars of 71 or w/e..wat i also heard is the fact that our political freaks (because of war in 65) started saying that were so much superior to india that 1 **** soldiers = 10 indian soldiers, therefore saying that Pakistan just needs 1/10th the indian army to beat them..i dont agree with that TOTALLY, because again at that time Pakistan was low on ammo and other things..so its hard to fight a war when you cant recooperate from your previous one.

and if you look in kashmir, India has 700,000 soldiers and STILL cant keep peace, while Pakistan only has 50,000 soldiers in Kashmir and can keep peace :). I dont think there will be a war in these times..maybe in the future..and if that does happen, by then Pakistan will have more advanced fighters like the JF-17, F16C's and many more, Pakistan will also start producing more Al-Khalids and have a better economy because of sales on JF-17 and parts. And wat is India making? nothing yet..and nothing in the comming future for a LONG time..dont expect Arjun tanks to come out in 2 years or something cuz they havent even produced any model watsoever.

Pakistan is planning on producing bout 1200 Al-khalids. Plus the previous wars were 25 YEARS AGO!!, much has changed since then and Pakistan and US relations have increased by much. I could be totally wrong on this and mean no offense..just pissy wissy after wat SU said.

[Su_37]

[ Admin Edit: Read rule # 18:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php#18

When you are ready to follow, then post.


Enjoy!

[Indus]

Admin Edit:

Read the subject line. The topic is about A R M Y not "military" in general.

[darklegent]

I am getting bored with this Pakistan - India arguement. Come on guys there are other armed force too in the Indian Sub-Continent.

[umair]

I am getting bored with this Pakistan - India arguement. Come on guys there are other armed force too in the Indian Sub-Continent.

Ditto!
Why do we pschycologically revolve around eachother,it's like both Pakistanis and Indians cannot shift their focus from upon eachother. :roll

[Majin-Vegeta]

err, i can..but i didnt start this, plus SU...wrote FAKE info bout india >_<. ANd i still dont believe that Pakistani soldiers surrendered, it was India soldiers :)..anyways..i guess this can be closed now since Pakistan wins :D. Maybe not by vote..but if you reaaallly look at it..theres no way Pakistan can lose, and if i have to explain dat i will.

[WebMaster]

Majin, sometimes in life you have to grasp on to the hard realities and MOVE ON! Lets get out of this blind patriotism, it only creates counter-patriotism from the "other" side and that leads to problems which we DON'T want and nor will we tolerate!

Enjoy!!!!

[Indus]

err, i can..but i didnt start this, plus SU...wrote FAKE info bout india >_<. ANd i still dont believe that Pakistani soldiers surrendered, it was India soldiers :)..anyways..i guess this can be closed now since Pakistan wins :D. Maybe not by vote..but if you reaaallly look at it..theres no way Pakistan can lose, and if i have to explain dat i will.

There you go again majin.. you had to start this again.. dont sit there and talk about 'fake' info.. everything Su_37 and I posted were from reliable sources such as Jane's, BBC, or other western news orgs, etc.. You dont back up any of your bs.. youre always saying 'my daddy told me' or 'I beleive this/that.'

THE BOTTOM LINE IS that this whole argument is all based on opinion until/if we fight the next war.. so stop bringing it back up or ill have to make you look stupid.. OKAY>

[gf0012-aust]

Admin note: Can we drop the "we won this, you lost" portion of the discussion. It is going to go nowhere and will escalate into something if not controlled by all sides.

[Indus]

ROGER THAT.... OVER AND OUT> :smokingc:

[Majin-Vegeta]

"i could be totally wrong on this and mean no offense..just pissy wissy after wat SU said."

understand? i didnt say im right, and i will try my best to get some sources, so your making yourself look like a fool, read the complete message or dont post at all.

[gf0012-aust]

Su_37 has been blacklisted after being unable to abide by the forum rules. The temperature and tenor of the thread has changed since then.


If you are going to be abusive then you aren't helping things.

If you're responding to someone it always helps to address them directly or use direct quotes.

[pakcamando14]

hello
i think that the pakistani army is way better then the indian.
they might not have all the things that the indian have but i know this that one pakistani has the strength of 20 indians. India might have nuclear bombs but every pakistani soldier is a nuclear bomb, and can blast any obstical in its way.

[umair]

hello
i think that the pakistani army is way better then the indian.
they might not have all the things that the indian have but i know this that one pakistani has the strength of 20 indians. India might have nuclear bombs but every pakistani soldier is a nuclear bomb, and can blast any obstical in its way.Pakcamando we're here to discuss this thread in a mature manner keeping in mind ceartian performance parameters and(to all members) not patriotic sloganeering that "our soldiers are this our soldiers are that"
Discussion here is based on some real world parameters and not one's personal feeling(as a fellow Pakistani I know how u feel)
So please try to restrain u'r feelings and base u'r posts on solid facts and sources.

[pakcamando14]

aaaaa Mr. umair
thanks for telling me this because it was my first time doing this.
:D

[Soldier]

hello
i think that the pakistani army is way better then the indian.
they might not have all the things that the indian have but i know this that one pakistani has the strength of 20 indians. India might have nuclear bombs but every pakistani soldier is a nuclear bomb, and can blast any obstical in its way.

Pakcommando, can not help laughing on your post. I am sure you make everyone regardless of their nationality laugh. :D :D :D

[Roger Smith]

It is very simple query to know, if Pakistani or Indian armies are the best army from the answers as follows;

1) Which country won 1948 war?
2) Which country won 1965 war?
3) Which country won 1971 war?
4) Which country won Kargil 1999 war?

The readers can work out themselves if the aforementioned wars was lost, won or stalemate, then figure out the points.

My views;

1) 1948 war was a stalemate.
2) 1965 war was a stalemate.
3) 1971, India won the war as Pakistan lost half of its territory East Pakistan.
4) Kargil 1999, war was a stalemate.

India wins 1 point and has a better army.

Guys and gals, how do you find my solution? :?:

[Winter]

It is very simple query to know, if Pakistani or Indian armies are the best army from the answers as follows;

1) Which country won 1948 war?
2) Which country won 1965 war?
3) Which country won 1971 war?
4) Which country won Kargil 1999 war?

The readers can work out themselves if the aforementioned wars was lost, won or stalemate, then figure out the points.

My views;

1) 1948 war was a stalemate.
2) 1965 war was a stalemate.
3) 1971, India won the war as Pakistan lost half of its territory East Pakistan.
4) Kargil 1999, war was a stalemate.

India wins 1 point and has a better army.

Guys and gals, how do you find my solution? :?:

Historically quoting 50, 40, 30 year old conflicts and slaving their outcomes to a points-based system is not a definitive 'solution' to determine a superior force of current or whatever this thread is about.

What do other people think? :roll

Kargil, 1999 was not an all-out war either, both sides did not (fortunately) have the chance to bring to fore every node of power and armament they could bring to bear on each other to conclusively decide which, what or wherever.

[The Watcher]

1948 war was a stalemate.



Wrong! In 1948, AJK was liberated! So basically it was loss on the indian side because they lost part of territory they hoped to control like rest of the occupied kashmir.

And if you are going with the years, go back to 1947 when India was broken up into three pieces and Pakistan came into existence. ;)

1971 war pakistan lost because of political unrest and because of the politcians. Does not really show incompetence of the army! Besides, the point is if you have subdued your enemey(pakistan) which isn't the case, Pakistan came out stronger and better after 1971 and still remains problem and a threat to India. So 1971 even after the break doesn't really present any better picture for india. :D

[Winter]

hey idiot, READ u freak, 3 million divided by 2 = 1.5 Million, that is wat Pakistan has, therefore..1 **** can kill 2 Indian soldiers. Understood?
You really need to take Math class :)

Not necessarily Majin-Vegata...Pakistan and India are both radically different when it comes to population and economic size which both have an influence on military strength...This does not mean some staff officers in Pakistan have worked out that one soldier is worth two Indian soldiers...No. That is not realistic. It means military size is defined by other factors. Pakistan has a much smaller population for instance, hence a smaller military. Granted, the relationship is not direct, but it does have an effect. As a proportion of the economy, Pakistan spends much, much more on the military than India does, because it needs to (in a sense as to remain on par with a India's higher military expenditure).

[pakcamando14]

ok ok ok i am sorry indus i will try to not to make you laugh and i will write things that are known facts. but i still think that the pakistani army i better. plus i am a new person in this.

[WebMaster]

Pakcomando, it would be better if you can list some reasons why you think Pakistani army is better or is well equiped, etc.

We at Deftalk do not like bitching contests where you get in this "my dad can beat yours..." bs and it leads to fights and ruined threads. I hope you keep your cool and patriotism aside when discussing such matters. Also, read our rules - they will help you last longer on the forum. Thanks, enjoy!!!

[pakcamando14]

i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start. :D

[Indus]

i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start. :D

Sure thing yaar.. if you want a neutral and unbiased assesment of the events leading up to, during and the conclusion of the 1999 Kargil war you can go to this website article from Globalsecurity.org...

---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

[Indus]

i just want to know what happend in the 1999 kargil war and who won it and how did it start. :D

Sure thing yaar.. if you want a neutral and unbiased assesment of the events leading up to, during and the conclusion of the 1999 Kargil war you can go to this website article from Globalsecurity.org...

---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

keep in mind though that Kargill wasn't really a full-fledged war.. it was more like a 3-month battle.. and btw there really is no need to sit here and argue who won war or not.. war is not a good thing.. it just drains money that both of our countries could be using on developing into a modern, stable states.

[ullu]

i hope this would also settle the doubts:

Indian Army fumes over critical US report
SIFY NEWS (http://headlines.sify.com/2316news2.html?%20headline=Indian~Army~fumes~over~ critical~US~r<br%20/>eport~)
New Delhi: The Army's top brass is fuming over a secret US report which has labelled its officers as too intellectual and which says its infrastructure is crumbling, a weekly magazine reported.

The US report has further described officers from Pakistan as more flexible, accommodating and easy to work with while calling their Indian counterparts protocol-bound and easily slighted.

The 141-page report titled "Indo-US Relationship: Expectations and Perceptions" is an assessment by the American Defence Department and draws input from Pentagon officials working with the Indian army.

"Indian elites are quintessentially intellectual. They thrive off finely-tuned arguments and logic, but US military outfits are businesslike and not interested in intellectual arguments -- they are interested in practical issues," the report says, according to the magazine.

"Consequently, they find India's intellectual arrogance off-putting and counter-productive."

Army officers dismissed the conclusion saying that though their officers were well-educated, most did not have the luxury of time to indulge in intellectual reading or writing until after retirement.

They added that the Indian army routinely served in the fiery heat of its northwestern deserts and at the Siachen mountain range, one of the world's highest mountain ranges.

"The comparison with Pakistan does not stand. Every Pakistani officer has done time in this or that US academy; they probably have the same military drills. The Indian situation is different," Brigadier Virender Saxena said.

The report also criticised the Indian army's infrastructure. "Many American officers observed that while the Indians have a large military and is relatively more sophisticated than others in the region, the vast infrastructure is crumbling," it said.

One US general described his visit to Indian army headquarters as "walking back in time."

The Indian army agreed about the need for modernisation of the force but said they were dependent on bureaucracy for funds, similar to any democracy.

New Delhi and Washington have been intensifying military cooperation in the last three years after US lifted sanctions against India for a series of nuclear tests conducted in 1998.


now i need find this report. :D2

some more on this report:

http://www.saag.org/papers8/paper754.html

http://www.dawn.com/2003/06/16/top13.htm

http://www.samachar.com/features/210703-features.html

[Indus]

Well ullu, even if this report is true, these difference are unlikely to compensate for India's sheer size, numbers, and more advanced equipment in an all-out war. This report was probably conducted a year or more ago. Since middle of last year, India has already made huge investments in modernizing the military. Within this time, India has spent billions of dollars on advanced Radars (Phalcon, Green Pine, Firefinder), 280 Denel G6 artillery units, 310 T-90Ss, upgraded Gorshkov AC., Will soon induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles into the Navy and are working to make an IAF version for Sukhois, India will soon have license to locally manufacture Sukhoi 30s, and are in the process of negotiating the purchase of French nuclear subs, and have allocated over $100 Billion for even more advanced weaponry to be spent over the next 15 yrs.

Yes it is true that Pakistan military command and infrastructure is based on years of U.S. training.. so there is definitely a difference. However US has vastly been increasing military cooperation w/ India - including exercises/training. So far that may be an advantage for Pakistan, but this advantage would unlikely be able to compensate for India's equipment/numbers/size advantage. It certainly did not help too much in the previous wars fought w/ India. Including the recent/modern era Indian victory in 1999 Kargil war.

[Winter]

Well ullu, even if this report is true, these difference are unlikely to compensate for India's sheer size, numbers, and more advanced equipment in an all-out war. This report was probably conducted a year or more ago. Since middle of last year, India has already made huge investments in modernizing the military. Within this time, India has spent billions of dollars on advanced Radars (Phalcon, Green Pine, Firefinder), 280 Denel G6 artillery units, 310 T-90Ss, upgraded Gorshkov AC., Will soon induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles into the Navy and are working to make an IAF version for Sukhois, India will soon have license to locally manufacture Sukhoi 30s, and are in the process of negotiating the purchase of French nuclear subs, and have allocated over $100 Billion for even more advanced weaponry to be spent over the next 15 yrs.

Yes it is true that Pakistan military command and infrastructure is based on years of U.S. training.. so there is definitely a difference. However US has vastly been increasing military cooperation w/ India - including exercises/training. So far that may be an advantage for Pakistan, but this advantage would unlikely be able to compensate for India's equipment/numbers/size advantage. It certainly did not help too much in the previous wars fought w/ India. Including the recent/modern era Indian victory in 1999 Kargil war.

Indus, ullu's article has nothing to do with hardware or weaponry, but the people...It also has nothing to do with 'advantages' over India and Pakistan...The thread entitlement is 'Best Army in South Asia,' not who's got the most number of zeros in their defence procurement budget between India and Pakistan.

:frosty

[Indus]

Well ullu, even if this report is true, these difference are unlikely to compensate for India's sheer size, numbers, and more advanced equipment in an all-out war. This report was probably conducted a year or more ago. Since middle of last year, India has already made huge investments in modernizing the military. Within this time, India has spent billions of dollars on advanced Radars (Phalcon, Green Pine, Firefinder), 280 Denel G6 artillery units, 310 T-90Ss, upgraded Gorshkov AC., Will soon induct the BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles into the Navy and are working to make an IAF version for Sukhois, India will soon have license to locally manufacture Sukhoi 30s, and are in the process of negotiating the purchase of French nuclear subs, and have allocated over $100 Billion for even more advanced weaponry to be spent over the next 15 yrs.

Yes it is true that Pakistan military command and infrastructure is based on years of U.S. training.. so there is definitely a difference. However US has vastly been increasing military cooperation w/ India - including exercises/training. So far that may be an advantage for Pakistan, but this advantage would unlikely be able to compensate for India's equipment/numbers/size advantage. It certainly did not help too much in the previous wars fought w/ India. Including the recent/modern era Indian victory in 1999 Kargil war.

Indus, ullu's article has nothing to do with hardware or weaponry, but the people...It also has nothing to do with 'advantages' over India and Pakistan...The thread entitlement is 'Best Army in South Asia,' not who's got the most number of zeros in their defence procurement budget between India and Pakistan.

:frosty

Winter, I was just pointing out that the supposed superiority in Pakistan's military command structure and infrastructure, which is based on years of U.S. training would be unlikely to compensate for India's advantages in many other category such as size, numbers, more modern weaponry..

Besides, India's military command is not so inept that it would make its advantages worthless. If that were true then Pakistan would control more than only 30% of Kashmir, wouldn't it. And Pakistan should not have lost the most recent 1999 Kargil War so decisively, if India was so much more inept than Pakistan.
Now that U.S.-India relations are getting warmer, the military cooperation b/w the two is growing and this will help in that area.

When assessing the superiority of an Army over another, all aspects of a military must be taken into account, b/c some advantages in one category may be overshadowed by other advantages on the opposing side.
And the disparity (difference) in one area may not be so huge as to determine the overall quality of the force - or who would win a war.

[ullu]

If that were true then Pakistan would control more than only 30% of Kashmir, wouldn't it. And Pakistan should not have lost the most recent 1999 Kargil War so decisively,


:lol

Pakistan had 30% of kashmir way back in 1948, after that Pak india went to war three times but india failed to gain that so little 30% of the kashmir.

as far as kargil, which country's defence miniter was involved in the "body bag scandal?" India, how many deaths were reported and how many body bags were ordered? 3000 body bags were ordered and very low casuality rate was reported but it all opened up when it was known that after the war 3000 body bags were ordered. That only due to few hundred or few thousand Kashmiris had taken up high hills in that conflict. Imagine if Nawaz sharif the traitor wasn't under pressure to put halt on the assault.

Not to mention whos airforce pilot was shot down and captured during kargil conflict?

which army sat on pakistani borders for over 10 months and blew its self up on same land mines that it layed? Indian.

[gf0012-aust]

Settle down folks

[Indus]

If that were true then Pakistan would control more than only 30% of Kashmir, wouldn't it. And Pakistan should not have lost the most recent 1999 Kargil War so decisively,


:lol

Pakistan had 30% of kashmir way back in 1948, after that Pak india went to war three times but india failed to gain that so little 30% of the kashmir.

as far as kargil, which country's defence miniter was involved in the "body bag scandal?" India, how many deaths were reported and how many body bags were ordered? 3000 body bags were ordered and very low casuality rate was reported but it all opened up when it was known that after the war 3000 body bags were ordered. That only due to few hundred or few thousand Kashmiris had taken up high hills in that conflict. Imagine if Nawaz sharif the traitor wasn't under pressure to put halt on the assault.

Not to mention whos airforce pilot was shot down and captured during kargil conflict?

which army sat on pakistani borders for over 10 months and blew its self up on same land mines that it layed? Indian.

If Pakistan controlled 30% in 1948, and still control 30% now - that would mean they have gained a total of 0% land since 1948.. So then you tell me why Pakistan's army is superior.. THats what we are debating about.. Why is Pakistan's army so much better - b/c it hasnt been shown on the battlefield.

As for your funny exaggerated claims about Kargil War.. I would ask you to try not to presume to know everthing that Pakistani news media puts out, b/c they would tend to be biased, especially in war defeat.. I could give you dozenz of Indian articles that claim much different than what your pakistani artilces say.. so if you want a neutral assesment of Kargil War go to globalsecurity.org.
---> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/kargil-99.htm

I dont like to keep doing this tit-for-tat, but if you bring it than I have to respond to unsubstantiated claims..

[ullu]

well since your bragging about indian army's superiority i thought it would be good to point out that the land that pakistan TOOK in 1948 is still with and pakistans control. the land that ever so belongs to india is still under pakistani control the superior indian army was suppose to get that back and so far 3 wars but army thats 3 times bigger than pakistans couldn't do it. :lol

as far as kargil where did i point out pakistani articles? it was right there in indian news media. have you forgotten about the 3000 body bag scandal??? :? i didnt even bring anything or posted anything from "pakistani media" as if indian media is not biased. :lol

[ullu]

here another pakistani media news article for you:

Now, body bags trouble for George
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, February 26
Defence Minister George Fernandes seems to have got into a habit of inviting trouble. After the “coffingate” scam, the booklet sent by Mr Fernandes to MPs explaining the “real” story in the purchase of the aluminium caskets for soldiers has now led to new allegations of irregularities in the purchase of 3,000 body bags for the coffins.

Rajya Sabha member and senior advocate R.K. Anand today alleged that according to the documents in the booklet itself while the rate of body bags mentioned was $ 27.50 per bag, the deal was finally signed at a rate of $ 85 each.

Speaking to mediapersons here, Mr Anand, who last month received a letter from Defence Minister George Fernandes along with a booklet issued by freelance journalist R.V. Pandit to clarify the issue, said he had unearthed the discrepancy on the basis of the official notes in the booklet.

The booklet, which was brought out by Mr Pandit although on his own initiative, but it had the backing of the Defence Minister and the Defence Ministry. He was provided with the official documents and later Mr Fernandes in an apparent bid to absolve himself had circulated the booklet among the MPs with his personal letter attached.

The booklet cited an official note quoting the price for a casket at $ 2,500 and that of a body bag at $ 27.50 “as per information received from our MA (military attaché) in Washington.” But while citing the contract purchase order, Mr Anand alleged, the booklet missed out the rate of the body bag deliberately.

The MP, however, procured a notarized copy of the contract from a Texas firm wherein the rate for body bags was mentioned at $ 85.

Mr Anand also demanded that Mr Fernandes be booked under the Official Secrets Act for circulating the official documents for public consumption.

Reading from the booklet, he also pointed out that companies from France, the UK and Germany had previously offered caskets at much less price than the one at which the government purchased them in August, 1999.

He also questioned the credentials of Mr Pandit who came to the defence of the Defence Minister by bringing out the booklet, describing it as “nothing but sham.”

Referring to the Defence Minister’s claim that the casket deal was not seen by him before it was struck, Mr Anand said why did he not take action against the Army officials responsible for it.

“If he is not himself involved in the issue, what was the need for getting a booklet published to defend him,” he asked.

oh wait but its from:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020227/nation.htm#5

[ullu]

Here another one

all pakistani media news reporting:

The CAG report, which was released in the second week of December, states that nearly all the supplies were either received or contracted well after the end of the conflict in July 1999. Its most damning revelation relates to the purchase of 500 aluminum caskets and 3,000 body bags at a cost of Rs.6.5 crores. According to the report, though these were not "complex items", only one bid (from an American company) was entertained and the possibility of indigenous and other sources was not considered. What the Opposition parties and many former defence personnel find even more objectionable is the price of the metal coffins - $2,500 (about Rs.1.2 lakh at the current exchange rate) apiece. Before taking delivery, the report says, no evaluation or acceptance tests were carried out. According to the Defence Ministry, the procurement was expedited owing to the urgent need to airlift bodies from the Kargil sector. But the coffins came too late.

2nd paragraph from top
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1826/18260250.htm

[ullu]

pakistani media news reporting pakistan orders 3000 body bags for its dead troops but why are indians uproaring?


Indian standstill over coffin uproar
December 11, 2001 Posted: 8:16 AM EST (1316 GMT)

Scores of Indians have died in skirmishes with Pakistan

NEW DELHI, India -- India's parliament has ground to a standstill after a fierce uproar broke out over reports the government tried to make money from coffins.

Opposition lawmakers on Tuesday demanded the government explain the purchase of overpriced coffins for Indian soldiers killed during a skirmish with Pakistan two years ago.

"Coffin thieves! coffin thieves!" opposition MPs shouted in both houses of parliament, forcing the suspension of both chambers without any progress on legislation, including a tough new anti-terrorism law.

"Soldiers shed blood, government takes commission," Reuters news agency cited opposition legislators as yelling.

The uproar follows a damning official report on the Defense Ministry's purchase of 500 coffins and 3,000 body bags from a U.S. firm during bloody fighting in 1999 to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the Kargil region.

The government-appointed Comptroller and Auditor- General found the ministry had ordered the coffins at a very high price and without any preliminary evaluation.

Almost 500 Indian soldiers died on the icy slopes of Kargil during a 10-week offensive to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the summer of 1999.

The bloody faceoff brought the nuclear capable neighbors to the brink of a third war over Kashmir.

It was also India's first television war in which images of soldiers struggling on steep slopes to fight intruders entrenched on the heights were beamed to millions of homes.

Caskets too heavy
The report released on Tuesday said the Defense Ministry contracted to buy the caskets and body bags at a cost of $1.5 million, but did not go through the proper process to buy them.

"Despite this being a new purchase, no acceptance test and evaluation was carried out," the report said.

In March, lawmakers fought over an arms scandal
The contract was later cancelled after the caskets arrived and were found to be too heavy and discarded.

"The transaction achieved little, other than to benefit the supplier," the report said.

Opposition lawmakers, waving copies of the report, demanded the government resign.

In the upper house, Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh offered a discussion on arms procurement policies, but was shouted down.

Scandal-hit ministry
This is the second time this year that the Indian ministry has become embroiled in scandal.

In March, two journalists posing as arms dealers secretly filmed a string of politicians, military officials and bureaucrats accepting money for a fictitious arms deal.

The scandal -- which many said exposed a culture of corruption in the country's secretive defense ministry -- led to the resignation of George Fernandes as defense minister.

Fernandes, who was not directly implicated in the video, returned to the ministry in October.

da link
www.hindu-religion.net/showflat/cat/WorldNews/24724/18/collapsed/5/o/1+%223000+body+bags%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]google (http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:TI6iwm2EhtsJ:[url) cache[/url]

500 aluminum coffins were also ordered. i guess alots of indian army men died in kargil but it was never reported or fORGOTTEN TOO SOON! Still a sad tale.

[Indus]

pakistani media news reporting pakistan orders 3000 body bags for its dead troops but why are indians uproaring?


Indian standstill over coffin uproar
December 11, 2001 Posted: 8:16 AM EST (1316 GMT)

Scores of Indians have died in skirmishes with Pakistan

NEW DELHI, India -- India's parliament has ground to a standstill after a fierce uproar broke out over reports the government tried to make money from coffins.

Opposition lawmakers on Tuesday demanded the government explain the purchase of overpriced coffins for Indian soldiers killed during a skirmish with Pakistan two years ago.

"Coffin thieves! coffin thieves!" opposition MPs shouted in both houses of parliament, forcing the suspension of both chambers without any progress on legislation, including a tough new anti-terrorism law.

"Soldiers shed blood, government takes commission," Reuters news agency cited opposition legislators as yelling.

The uproar follows a damning official report on the Defense Ministry's purchase of 500 coffins and 3,000 body bags from a U.S. firm during bloody fighting in 1999 to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the Kargil region.

The government-appointed Comptroller and Auditor- General found the ministry had ordered the coffins at a very high price and without any preliminary evaluation.

Almost 500 Indian soldiers died on the icy slopes of Kargil during a 10-week offensive to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the summer of 1999.

The bloody faceoff brought the nuclear capable neighbors to the brink of a third war over Kashmir.

It was also India's first television war in which images of soldiers struggling on steep slopes to fight intruders entrenched on the heights were beamed to millions of homes.

Caskets too heavy
The report released on Tuesday said the Defense Ministry contracted to buy the caskets and body bags at a cost of $1.5 million, but did not go through the proper process to buy them.

"Despite this being a new purchase, no acceptance test and evaluation was carried out," the report said.

In March, lawmakers fought over an arms scandal
The contract was later cancelled after the caskets arrived and were found to be too heavy and discarded.

"The transaction achieved little, other than to benefit the supplier," the report said.

Opposition lawmakers, waving copies of the report, demanded the government resign.

In the upper house, Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh offered a discussion on arms procurement policies, but was shouted down.

Scandal-hit ministry
This is the second time this year that the Indian ministry has become embroiled in scandal.

In March, two journalists posing as arms dealers secretly filmed a string of politicians, military officials and bureaucrats accepting money for a fictitious arms deal.

The scandal -- which many said exposed a culture of corruption in the country's secretive defense ministry -- led to the resignation of George Fernandes as defense minister.

Fernandes, who was not directly implicated in the video, returned to the ministry in October.

da link
www.hindu-religion.net/showflat/cat/WorldNews/24724/18/collapsed/5/o/1+%223000+body+bags%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]google (http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:TI6iwm2EhtsJ:[url) cache[/url]

500 aluminum coffins were also ordered. i guess alots of indian army men died in kargil but it was never reported or fORGOTTEN TOO SOON! Still a sad tale.

READ the whole article so you dont make urself look stupid.. 4th paragraph
"Almost 500 Indian soldiers died on the icy slopes of Kargil during a 10-week offensive to repel infiltrators from Pakistan in the summer of 1999"

Thats' why it was a 3000 bodybag scandal... READ THE ARTICLE

India has not tried to reclaim the remaining 30%, AS you know India has not once started a war w/ pakistan.. IT has been pakistan every time crossing the LoC.. which has started the wars.. India respects the UNs Line of Control for the time being thats why India has not even started a war to take over the rest...

[The Watcher]

Since India respects UN so much, how about giving some respect to those UN resolutions that UN passed against India?

All wars were started by India. It is India which has big colonial ambitions to rule over Pakistan and they even tried back in '65 but 600 tanks and their commanders weren't meant to eat breakfast in lahore. ;)

[WebMaster]

EnOugh of this our dick bigger than your dick crap.

[gf0012-aust]

Time to chill a bit folks. Play nice.

darn! beaten by webbie!