German Army Development

[kato]

As there's no general thread on the German Army, creating one.

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From the Bundeswehrplan 2009, unsorted:

Development:
- second batch of Soldat im Einsatz equipment (downgraded IdZ) planned
- "Enhanced IdZ" procurement starting 2009
- MG3 successor to be developed as part of IdZ, 2011+ (!!!)
- ZEFF (IFF for ground systems): to be introduced 2016
- additional sensor platform for Fennek (MOSES): 2014+
- 10 Fennek JFST "initial" (current: 4), further 24 after 2015
- TEP90, new decon equipment, finally being introduced 2010
- new personal NBC defence gear being developed
- new EW, ELINT, E Recon, NBC Recon gear planned
- new ground surveillance radar system : 2012+, initial procurement only
- JFST version of Puma: 2015+ (if i read that right)

Not funded stuff:
- only 20 CH-53G to be upgraded for now, future upgrades not funded yet
- not enough Aladdin UAVs for planned Fennek JFST teams funded
- second batch of PSB2 bridging tanks: not funded
- air-mobile bridging equipment: not funded
- mobile/air-mobile close air defence: not funded
- MELLS dismounted launchers: not funded

Procurement, positive:
- Tiger procurement to be finished by 2013
- Puma procurement: 2010-2019, MechInf units to be equipped by 2013
- C-RAM: immediate procurement, in service planned 2009
- stationary close air defence: under development; procurement 2014+
- MELLS: launchers funded, initial procurement for missiles only
- Wiesel 2 Mortar: procurement funded for intervention forces, complete 2015
- WAPEB attack drone: 2013+
- 9 new basic training helos, 2009+ (civilian model, replacing Bo-105)

Some changed numbers
- GTK Boxer: now 791 (+30) until 2013
- Multi A3 FSA: now 839 (+600 !!) until 2016
- Dingo 2: now 196 (+30) until 2016
- Mungo: capped at 2014 - originally to 2016+ (bad performance)
- GTF/GFF number fixed down at 5,500 total until 2016

All in comparison to BwPlan 2008.

Leopard 2:
- new HE ammo from 2009
- 150 tanks to be equipped to A6M standard (should be all remaining A6?)
- same 150 tanks to get air conditioning and APU
- 50 tanks to be upgraded "for MOUT" (!) (PSO?)

[Navor86]

Well this looks nice but the total lack of Infantry and the lack of a political will make those procurements unecessary as they wont be used anyway

[DavidDCM]

kato,
do you have further informations on the LePzMrs Wiesel 2? (Armored mortar carrier for our english-speaking friends :) )

Not the tech specs, those can be found at the Rheinmetall page.

Is it known how many systems will be purchased and which units they will go to? From the Rheinmetall page I only understood that a fire platoon consists of 4 mortar carriers, but what other vehicles will be part of a platoon, a company, etc., and what are their specific tasks in the battle field?

Do you have a source for the Leopard 2-upgrades?

[kato]

Source is the BwPlan 2009 (http://geopowers.com/Machte/Deutschland/Rustung/Rustung_2008/Bundeswehrplan_2009.pdf).

Wiesel 2, as i understand it:

The Wiesel 2 mortar system is only used platoon-based. Two C2 vehicles (platoon command, fire control) plus four mortar carriers per platoon. Additionally, there are supposed to be ammo carriers (Wiesel 2 based, presumably 4 ?).
The heavy weapons company in which the platoon is placed apparently gets two JFST vehicles, plus a JFST Control System, all on Wiesel 2.
If i get it right, the Mechanised Battalions will use Puma as organic JFST in addition, other units will use Fennek JFST.

Some of these systems are apparently also planned alternatively based on Bv-206S, for certain units; in particular the C2 systems.

Since "the demand of the Intervention Forces will be satisfied by 2015" (or rather that's what's funded), i'm presuming something like 15-20 of the above platoons until then (ie about 200-250 vehicles funded?).
597 vehicles planned as part of the Mörserkampfsystem in total for the entire forces, including beyond 2016+.

[DavidDCM]

Thanks for the info!

I was a bit confused by the Rheinmetall page and was not completely sure which of all those vehicles in their nice advertising images actually belong to the mortar platoons. But basically it are 4 mortar carriers, the platoonleader (Zugtrupp) and the Fire control (Feuerleit) vehicle plus the supply vehicles. KpFü, JFST and JFSCT are only part of the greater network but not immediately and solely responsible for the mortars.

[Waylander]

Thanks alot for sharing it! :)
In the end it looks better than expected.

But am not sure if the number of planned upgraded CH-53G is enough.
I am really surprised that they plan to develop a MG3 successor so soon.
The new NBC gear is also finally going to be developed.
The Multi seems to be well liked.
IMHO ALADIN is a must have but maybe the planned numbers maybe enough for limited use.

And I am especially glad that the LePzMrs got funded along with the upgrades for the Leopard II and the planned introduction of the Puma.
Looks like they learned out of recent conflicts what kind of influence modern and well equipped mechanized forces have despite the new and modern love for light infantry forces.

I also, like you, still don't get how the Pumas and Fenneks are going to be used as JFSTs. Who is going to use what? In the end the Puma would make sense if attached to a mixed Pz or PzGren unit but where does the Fennek fit in? In the end the light forces get their Wiesel 2 IIRC.
Additional and more stealthy JFST capabilities due to the nature of the Fennek?

I can't wait to see final plans for Leopard II MOUT versions.

[kato]

Well, the KpFü-Wiesel 2 will probably only be used in the light units (e.g. paratroopers), as command vehicles for the heavy weapons companies.

The JFST-related Wiesel 2 stuff is in fact integrated with the mortars. They'd be assigned as the primary forward observers for the mortar platoon, but would additionally have the capability to observe for other assets (artillery, aircraft) as well (through software interfacing).

The remainder of the Heavy Weapons Company would depend on the type of battalion. Afaik:
the two FsJg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW ?), three MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK ?), one mortar platoon and one JFST platoon;
the two Jg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), one MK platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
the three GebJg heavy companies currently have two AT platoons (4 Wiesel 1 TOW), two MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
the PzGren heavy companies in their last incarnation had two mortar platoons (3 PzMrsr + 1 M113), one AT platoon (5 Jaguar 1), one JFST platoon (2 Marder); with the AT platoon removed first, and later the entire company struck from ToE.

[kato]

Thanks alot for sharing it! :)
The new NBC gear is also finally going to be developed.

Holding my breath there. TEP90 already "late" when i was in the NBC forces, and that's almost a decade ago. They're still using the TEP70 gear, mostly bought around 1978. However, with personal gear, it's somewhat urgent - as i understand it, some units in recent times have had to make do with former NVA equipment in that regard even.

I also, like you, still don't get how the Pumas and Fenneks are going to be used as JFSTs. Who is going to use what? In the end the Puma would make sense if attached to a mixed Pz or PzGren unit but where does the Fennek fit in? In the end the light forces get their Wiesel 2 IIRC.
Imho: Puma JFST for the VB-Trupps of the Pz/PzGren-Tr. Wiesel 2 JFST for the LLBrigs and JgRgt 1 (LL). There will only be some 34 Fennek JFST, and before 2015 only 10 vehicles.

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Edit: Disposition of JFST units:

Puma - "Heavy Forces" (PzGren)
Fennek - "Medium Forces" (JgBtl 292 etc)
Wiesel - "Light Forces" (LL)
Bv206 - "Mountain Forces" (GebJg)

[Waylander]

VB? Shouldn't it be AB (Artilleriebeobachter)? At least that's what they where called when I left service.

The status of personal NBC gear is really disgusting. Why should anybody carry this stuff with him at all? It is totally useless against anything else than pepperspray and just adds weight to your battlegear.

[kato]

VB = Vorgeschobener Beobachter (mortars). Same thing really - VB and AB will be fusioned in the JSFT context.

NBC gear... well, maybe i have a different... perspective? Although our gear wasn't the standard stuff of course, instead we had "real" protective gear. The Zodiac weighs "a bit" more than the standard overgarment, you'll sweat by the liters inside, and - in decon - you're supposed to actually work in Zodiac and mask for 6-8 hours with little relief.

As for the mask... umm, of course it works against more than pepperspray. Just depends on the filter you screw in. The standard minimal filters issued for training however pretty much only work against pepperspray and such, yeah.

"Real" filters would have been issued in wartime, we had a couple thousand in some semi-sealed storage shed for the units at our base. Same thing as the decon chemicals really (not issued in peacetime for training, mostly for environmental purposes), those were in the next three sheds ;-)

As for TEP90... as i understand it, the new gear will enable the remaining few NBC units to be almost as effective as the (more numerous) old units were, with considerably lower per-unit manpower. They're losing the offroad capability with TEP90 though.

Actually, i should find out what they're planning to use in the water transport platoons instead though. The E-Kfz of the combat companies were used for that as a secondary role quite often, to add to the small units in the staff coy (and that's a role not to be underestimated - it's the primary role of NBC forces in deployments really). Somehow i don't believe they'll buy a armored truck with a large tank on a semitrailer just to "fit in".

New NBC recon gear... that's what i find interesting. They probably mean the upgrade for the ABCSpürFuchs recently bought from Rheinmetall, for all remaining Fuchs. Really time for it too. Afaik, they still use the same gear there our recon platoons used, ie. primarily a racked 80186-based computer in the Fuchs. 16-bit power :lol:

[Waylander]

I know that the mortar guys named them VB, I was just confused by using VB also for the heavy guys. Just details... :)

As for the standard NCB gear.
I know that there are wartime filters but the problem is the mask itself. We had dozens of masks where the rubber just disintegrated or were the holding ropes (I have no idea what it is in english, Halteriemen?) broke or one were not able to tighten them up.
I don't want to start with the rubber poncho... :rolleyes:

[outsider]

Wikipedia refers to the Leopard 2A4 being phased out. Does this mean they will be disposed of? And if so wouldn't this leave the German Army with too few tanks in a crisis?

[kato]

Maybe your Versorgungsfeldwebel should have asked some depots? :rolleyes:

There's around a quarter million masks in storage right now, about as many as there are G3A3 rifles, or other "personal gear", storaged for similar reserve purposes.
I think my mask, when i was issued it, was something like 3 or 4 years old and in perfect condition. Had to wait 3 months for the optical correction insert though... (and never used it)

The poncho is only used in connection with the overgarment to protect it superficially against rain for a limited time. No other purpose for it in a NBC context. Most units have replaced the Bw Poncho with the NVA counterpart btw.

[kato]

Wikipedia refers to the Leopard 2A4 being phased out. Does this mean they will be disposed of? And if so wouldn't this leave the German Army with too few tanks in a crisis?

The only remaining Leopard 2 A4 to my knowledge are some 50 tanks used for training in the GÜZ/RÜZ centers.
Other than that, there are currently about 125 A5, 150 A6 and 75 A6M, which will be retained. Probably in the future to come to something like:
- 88 A5 (two battalions)
- 44 A5 PSO (or whatever the MOUT config will be called; one battalion)
- 225 A6M (five battalions).

Would be interesting if there'll be "pure" battalions, or whether there'll be e.g. 3 battalions equipped with two A5 companies and one PSO company.

There are no "reserve tanks" under the current structure (and the one before it, and the future target structure).
There are probably around 500 Leopard 2A4 somewhere in depots still waiting to be sold, as well as around 800 remaining Leopard 1A5 likely to be scrapped sometime in the next 5-10 years. [numbers for that my estimate]

Most of the budget for scrapping during that period has been reassigned to destroy mines and cluster munitions though, so maybe the stock numbers will stay at a couple hundred for a while still?

[outsider]

The only remaining Leopard 2 A4 to my knowledge are some 50 tanks used for training in the GÜZ/RÜZ centers.
Other than that, there are currently about 125 A5, 150 A6 and 75 A6M, which will be retained. Probably in the future to come to something like:
- 88 A5 (two battalions)
- 44 A5 PSO (or whatever the MOUT config will be called; one battalion)
- 225 A6M (five battalions).

Would be interesting if there'll be "pure" battalions, or whether there'll be e.g. 3 battalions equipped with two A5 companies and one PSO company.

There are no "reserve tanks" under the current structure (and the one before it, and the future target structure).
There are probably around 500 Leopard 2A4 somewhere in depots still waiting to be sold, as well as around 800 remaining Leopard 1A5 likely to be scrapped sometime in the next 5-10 years.
Most of the budget for scrapping during that period has been reassigned to destroy mines and cluster munitions though, so maybe the stock numbers will stay at a couple hundred for a while still?

350 Tanks - That sounds like WAY too few tanks to me, once the 2A4's and 1A5's are disposed of, leaving no reserves. I hope this tendency of European nations to downsize their armed forces (disarm) doesn't end in tears, in a crisis.

Unfortunately, it seems that NATO expansion is used as an excuse for many countries to disarm, and dispose of their assets. If everybody disarms how much use is NATO going to be in a crisis?

[Waylander]

Maybe your Versorgungsfeldwebel should have asked some depots? :rolleyes:

There's around a quarter million masks in storage right now, about as many as there are G3A3 rifles, or other "personal gear", storaged for similar reserve purposes.
I think my mask, when i was issued it, was something like 3 or 4 years old and in perfect condition. Had to wait 3 months for the optical correction insert though... (and never used it)

The poncho is only used in connection with the overgarment to protect it superficially against rain for a limited time. No other purpose for it in a NBC context. Most units have replaced the Bw Poncho with the NVA counterpart btw.

It's not as if we hadn't multiple mask exchanges...
Maybe just bad luck in our unit.
And using the poncho is not only trained in connection with the overgarment. And while the overgarment is said to be issued if needed training time with it is near to zero.

[Waylander]

There are several thousand first line MBTs in active NATO service and alot of second line ones.

Tell me, who is able to threaten NATO conventionally even if one excludes the USA?

[kato]

And while the overgarment is said to be issued if needed training time with it is near to zero.
Seriously? I probably had like ten to fifteen days of training sessions with the overgarment during Basic Training, worked in with the rest of Basic.

Those included training for basic suiting up/down, full "speed suiting" (timed), fully suited NBC marches, manual NBC recon, manual decon of contaminated squadmembers, alert post in full NBC gear, exertion under full NBC protection (such as multiple HiBa runs, always fun) etc pp. And a lot of that in the Recruit Exam too.

Also had one issued for like six weeks during Basic Training, had to trade it in for the Zodiac afterwards (which i had to use in at least 25 sessions).
We had over 50 spare overgarments for training (ie slightly damaged or otherwise not tight) still stocked in the basement beyond our issued ~120.

Our recon guys were issued overgarments for their entire time, and also did training in them - though that's understable : NBC recon, in NBC-protected Fuchs = mandatory BAS 3.

edit:
Actually, now that i think back to it... I think the Luftwaffe guys thought we were crazy when we once visited their base with the full company to test out their brand-new AGSHP simulator... and while waiting went out to their obstacle course - for one hour at a time, in full NBC gear, with blindfolded disassembling and reassembling of our weapons inbetween runs, while not dropping a single weapon part to the ground. Timed.
Was actually sort of fun even.

[outsider]

There are several thousand first line MBTs in active NATO service and alot of second line ones.

Tell me, who is able to threaten NATO conventionally even if one excludes the USA?

Well, world events can change pretty quickly and can sometimes be difficult to predict.

One scenario might be.... An Israeli/US attack on Iran causing pro-western goverments in the middle east and possibly Turkey to fall and be replaced by radical islamic regimes, possibly uniting against the west. Add to this a more militant Russia if events escalate in Georgia and Russia's reaction to an attack on Iran.

I'm just saying its a good idea to leave a little excess capacity, not too trim too far. Leave a little margin for error/unexpected events.

[Waylander]

@Kato
Let me guess your basic training also happened to be in a NBC unit? ;)
Usually training time for nbc gear is much less in other units during basic training (and near to zero after basic training). A normal recruit might get to see an overgarment just once (and with see I mean just see) during his basic training while the rest is done with the basic stuff (mask, poncho, gloves).
And overgarments are usually not issued during normal peacetime duty.

Might be interesting to ask someone out of the combat units when he had his last real training under NBC threat conditions...

[Waylander]

Well, world events can change pretty quickly and can sometimes be difficult to predict.

One scenario might be.... An Israeli/US attack on Iran causing pro-western goverments in the middle east and possibly Turkey to fall and be replaced by radical islamic regimes, possibly uniting against the west. Add to this a more militant Russia if events escalate in Georgia and Russia's reaction to an attack on Iran.

I'm just saying its a good idea to leave a little excess capacity, not too trim too far. Leave a little margin for error/unexpected events.

So what? Even a united middle east is not even going to come close to being able to threaten Europe conventionally.
With what?

And a new Russian threat is also not going to come out of the blue. Right now the Russians would have a hard time trying to deal with the european part of NATO only and this is not going to change in the near future.

What I am afraid of is that one day we might need to get back to cold war levels but our politicians are not willing to take the necessary steps.
If this is the case than some hundred old Leopard IIA4 are not going to save us anyway.
Remember that storing such equipment and keep it maintained is not cheap at all. I agree that we should have some Leopard IIA4s in storage. Atrittion is the key word here. But nowhere near to usefull reserve numbers.

As much as I love our heavy forces I don't think that we need that many of them.

[kato]

No need to train the cannon fodder, they only had an average survival time of 14 minutes anyway? ;-)

Yeah, it was in a NBC unit. Although a large proportion of people went on to other engineer forces, couple guys to maintenance, a handful to signals units and so on.

Of course every unit type focusses a bit differently during basic training. For us, definite focii (during basic!) were NBC stuff, medic support (iirc you wouldn't have to load multiple KrKw properly with wounded in regular basic training elsewhere), and dealing with other people in our operations: knowing who's where and why in relation to us; working alongside medics, engineers and infantry in the field to some extent; operating the usual signals stuff available to us. In addition to of course the usual training routine.
SGA training of course picked right up from there.

I remember lots of MG training too - NBC troops are heavy on em, and our NCOs were actually mourning the deletion of the 20mm AA guns the battalion used to have.

Considering we had "veterans" from the Somalia and Bosnia deployments, and later from Macedonia as well as a handful men delegated to us from the "Green" in our unit - it was pretty good training i guess.

How many NBC units remain in the new structure anyway? Two battalions, two "light" companies and the ABC/SE School iirc. Nothing compared to the five active and two inactive battalion we had in my days ;-)

[kato]

As much as I love our heavy forces I don't think that we need that many of them.
Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.

One thing i just noticed.

BwPlan 2009 mentions 393 Leopard 2 planned in 2013. Is it possible that, instead of the Leo 2A5, they'll reconfigure the remaining 2A4 for urban combat?

[Waylander]

As I understand it NBC training in other units than NBC-Btls degraded heavily after the end of cold war.
At least we drove around in a big NBC suit with tracks... :)

During my basic training they exchanged one month of green traditional combat ops training for sort of enforced peacekeeping training.
Most of my instructors came right from a A-stan tour so they where pretty good at what they teached us.
Nevertheless we also never again trained anything NBC related during normal tank training apart from one theoretical classroom lesson about how we would work together with a decon unit.
And I think this is the case for most units in the Bundeswehr.

I am highly sceptical about a german combat brigade being able to operate in a NBC environment without additional training.
If an advancing btl would get slimed I wouldn't be surprised if it would fall apart completely while the higher ranks search for the correct procedure in their HdVs...

BTW, NBC training sucks anyways. :D ;)

[Waylander]

Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.

One thing i just noticed.

BwPlan 2009 mentions 393 Leopard 2 planned in 2013. Is it possible that, instead of the Leo 2A5, they'll reconfigure the remaining 2A4 for urban combat?

Mmmh, could be possible.
Might be alot easier to get a pool of PSOs which can be distributed to areas of operation and to training facilities (RÜZ Nord, GÜZ and RÜZI). This way our tank btls could remain traditional tank btls which would get additional training before deploying with some PSOs out of the pool. Would be alot more flexible as one could just put companies from every btl into training without having to put them into the only existing MOUT btl.

BTW, I think this was my wish for a possible PSO introduction. Sometimes I just regain a little bit of confidence... :D

[kato]

How many NBC units remain in the new structure anyway? Two battalions, two "light" companies and the ABC/SE School iirc.

Correcting myself:

Actually forgot that they made my old unit a "regiment" last year, by:
- reactivating the fourth combat coy (used to be inactive)
- organizationally merging a company from the NBC school (as fifth combat coy)
- adding the now usual basic training coy
- adding a "support coy" (... probably the elements pushed out from 1st coy to make "space" for more staff, already present in intermediate "NBC Brigade 100")
- putting an inactive battalion under the regimental command

1st PzDiv has a regular btl (with three combat coys), as the only remaining division with "proper" divisional troops.

Both intervention forces and stabilization forces have a "light coy" each (hooked in 1st Div and DLO respectively).

[Navor86]

Well, the KpFü-Wiesel 2 will probably only be used in the light units (e.g. paratroopers), as command vehicles for the heavy weapons companies.

The JFST-related Wiesel 2 stuff is in fact integrated with the mortars. They'd be assigned as the primary forward observers for the mortar platoon, but would additionally have the capability to observe for other assets (artillery, aircraft) as well (through software interfacing).

The remainder of the Heavy Weapons Company would depend on the type of battalion. Afaik:
the two FsJg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW ?), three MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK ?), one mortar platoon and one JFST platoon;
the two Jg heavy companies currently have one AT platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), one MK platoon (6 Wiesel 1 TOW), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
the three GebJg heavy companies currently have two AT platoons (4 Wiesel 1 TOW), two MK platoons (4 Wiesel 1 MK), two mortar platoons and one JFST platoon;
the PzGren heavy companies in their last incarnation had two mortar platoons (3 PzMrsr + 1 M113), one AT platoon (5 Jaguar 1), one JFST platoon (2 Marder); with the AT platoon removed first, and later the entire company struck from ToE.

But we have 4 Paratrooper Bn and so 4 Heavy Companies and 3 Heavy Companies for Jäger Units(2 in the Air Assault Rgt and 1 at 292)

[outsider]

Agree. Sure, if you look at the 2003 equipment numbers, they're ... staggering. 1700 Leos, 1700 Marder, 4500 M113 and Fuchs, 700 PzH and M109, 160 MARS, about 1000 other AFVs ... oh, and let's not forget the 500 aircraft and 600 helos. Well, it's not like that's needed. Seriously.


Not needed right now. But there may come a time when you would wish that you had kept them.... I do find it amazing that a country that could afford to keep and maintain 4500 mbt's, will soon only have 350.

[kato]

Caught me on the paratrooper battalions. ;-)

JgRgt 1 and JgBtl 292 each have one Heavy Company with fire support weapons.

The second "Heavy Company" in JgRgt 1 is a infantry company equipped with GTK Boxer (currently: Fuchs), ie equipped like the combat coys of JgBtl 292. The other infantry companies of JgRgt 1 are equipped like paratroopers (ie. with Mungo as APC) - hence "heavy" for the Boxer company.

[Waylander]

[QUOTE=outsider;151211]Not needed right now. But there may come a time when you would wish that you had kept them.... I do find it amazing that a country that could afford to keep and maintain 4500 mbt's, will soon only have 350.[/QUOTE<]

You haven't even tried to adress the points I made regarding current threats and threats of the near future.
Germany (or at least the western part) has been a frontier country during cold war.
As much as the FRG needed to have sich a strong wartime army and the GDR needed to have a strong wartime army it is now exactly vice versa.
We are part of NATO and part of EU defense.
I ask you to answer again who is going to threaten these alliances even if we take the US (and Canada) out of the game?

BTW, the foreign forces with which big parts of my male relatives would have worked with would have been the 3rd Shock Army instead of the 1st US Corps. So I am not angry about the changed situation...;)

[kato]

The Bundeswehr has ordered additional Dingo 2 vehicles, as well as new overhead weapon stations.

Total order:
- 50 Dingo 2 patrol vehicles
- 4 Dingo 2 GSI vehicles (+44 options)
- 230 light weapon stations FLW 100
- 190 heavy weapon stations FLW 200

GSI vehicles are for the organic combat damage repair and maintenance teams, with typically one team per combat company (one GSI vehicle). Dingos equip the GSI teams of medium forces; for heavy forces, a Boxer GTK variant is planned.

The FLW stations equip Dingos as well as Boxer GTK and all GFF vehicles; this batch was likely also ordered to equip the 198 Eagle IV (+474 options) recently ordered as GFF 2.

FLW 100 ( http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/flw100.php): remote-controlled MG3/MG4 mount with integral optronics
FLW 200 ( http://www.kmweg.com/gb/produkte/flw200.php): remote-controlled MG3/M2HB/GMG mount with integral optronics

Delivery of the 54 vehicles planned until end of 2008.

[kato]

ES&D (http://www.europeansecurityanddefence.info) have two interesting articles of their current issue (in English) online:

- Future Equipment of the Bundeswehr – Chances and Perspectives (http://www.europeansecurityanddefence.info/Ausgaben/2008/2_2008/02_Wolf/2008,02,02,.html)
- Armament Projects of the Army (http://www.europeansecurityanddefence.info/Ausgaben/2008/2_2008/04_Klos/2008,02,04,.html)

Second article in particular has interesting stuff, including a ton of background not covered in BwPlan or other publications.
Even though, as usual, the English used isn't really at it's best. And the paragraphing sucks. *cough*

Waylander, there's a section on the Leo in there. Apparently, not the full PSO package will be bought.

[Waylander]

Very interesting read. Thanks for the links! :)

I just had time to read the part about the Leopard upgrade and to scan the rest a little bit so far but I am defenitely going to read the rest.

I already expected the proposed urban combat kit for the Leo not to be the full PSO package.
But what they intend to procure covers most of the stuff I wanted to see. But one thing puzzles me. They are not talking about giving them some upgrade armor and this is something I thought they would do first.
At least the back needs some additional protection to make the Leopard better suited for urban ops and I would also like to see the frontal hull upgrade.

[kato]

Anyone aware of how the Leos are planned to be split between Intervention Forces and Stabilization Forces?

I think there should likely be enough Leo 2A6M within a few years to fully equip the 3 battalions in the EK, while the 3 battalions in the SK could get shafted with 2A5?

(and: will PzBrig 21 get a 2nd tank battalion? - otherwise there'd be 2 battalions "spares" in the active forces)

[eckherl]

@Kato or Waylander,

Can either of you tell me what type of side arm is carried by the Bundeswehr, also I have stumbled across a Walther P5 model 9mm, looking at the condition of the pistol you can tell that it has seen some use, not stating that it is in bad condition but you can see where the blueing is wearing off, this pistol is really hard to come across in the U.S and you can tell by the markings that it came straight from Germany. I was wondering is this a old duty sidearm that the Bundeswehr got rid of due to life cycle, I want to purchase it from a whole saler but I do not want a worn out pistol that I cannot enjoy killing paper with.

Advise please.

[kato]

The P5... never used by the Bundeswehr, several federal states issued it to their police forces in the early 80s.

Sidearms as coded:

P1 : slightly redone Walther P38 (BGS, Bw)
P2 : SIG P210-4 (BGS) or HK P2 flare pistol (Bw)
P3 : Astra 600/43 (BGS, Bw)
P4 : aluminium-frame Walther P38/P1 (BGS)
P5 : Walther P5 (police)
P6 : SIG P225 (police)
P7 : HK PSP/P7 (police; rare Bw use, Military Police)
P8 : HK USP (current Bw sidearm)
P9 : Walther P99 or Glock 17 (either way: police, BGS)
P10: HK USP Compact (few for prison guards)
P11: HK P11 underwater pistol (rare Bw use, SOF)
P12: modified HK USP Tactical (rare Bw use, SOF)

Bundeswehr issued sidearms: P1, P3, P7, P8, P11, P12.

Standard sidearms in the Bw were P1 and P8. The others, P7, P8 and P12 are only issued in marginal numbers; P3 were a few thousand leftover from WW2, replaced by P1 in the early 60s.
P1 is being retired (but still several 10,000 in stocks), P8 being introduced.

Number of code is by trials date, with the sole exception of the P11. P1/2/3 were leftovers from WW2, P4 a rebuild of the P1, P5/6/7 from trials issued by police searching for a new duty pistols in 1979, P8/9/10 were Bw and Police trials in the late 90s, P12 a later buy for SOF. The P11 doesn't fit the scheme as it was introduced in '76.

The Bundeswehr sees "life cycles" on pistols ermm... pretty long-lived. We had a number of P1 with x-ed out Wehrmacht stamps on the frame, for regular issue. In 2000. Afaik, no Bundeswehr P1 went to the free market. All either scrapped or gracefully donated to police forces in Afghanistan and Kosovo. A couple 10,000 probably in the same reserve depot as the quarter million G3 and the 50,000 "spare" G36.

Forgot, there've also been issued in the Bw:
- P21 (Walther PPK, precursor to P7 with military police for concealed carry)
- P22 (Walther PP, same)
- P52 (M1911A1, part of initial BGS/Bw issue, replaced by P1)
- Makarov PM (NVA takeover, used very shortly like e.g. also AK74)

[kato]

Oh, and the mix of designations (between Bw, BGS and police) is similar with other weapons.

e.g. SMGs:
MP1 - Beretta MP38/49 (BGS)
MP2 - Uzi (Bw)
MP3 - Walther MPL (police)
MP4 - Walther MPK (police)
MP5 - HK MP5 (Bw, police, BGS)
MP6 - doesn't exist
MP7 - HK MP7 (Bw)
Additionally: M1A1 (initial issue), MP74 (AK74, issued '90-93).

[eckherl]

Thanks Kato, as always I can count on you for some good information that I am looking for. For the price and thinking that it came from a police officer, meaning that hopefully it hasn`t seen extensive use, I have decided to take a gamble and purchase it.

[bkweber74]

The budget does look nice; finally some commitment to driving procurement spend up (both now and int he out years). Whether we ever see the magical 30% level is another question. Does anyhow have any insight into how real these numebrs are likely to be over time? How stretched is the budget in general? How about the broader political will?

[Waylander]

Anyone aware of how the Leos are planned to be split between Intervention Forces and Stabilization Forces?

I think there should likely be enough Leo 2A6M within a few years to fully equip the 3 battalions in the EK, while the 3 battalions in the SK could get shafted with 2A5?

(and: will PzBrig 21 get a 2nd tank battalion? - otherwise there'd be 2 battalions "spares" in the active forces)

It is planned to give the A6M to the 3 EK btls while the SK btls get two btls of A5 and one of A6.

@bkweber74
Political will? I get the feeling it is getting better. But the movement into this direction is close to being uncountable...

[kato]

Does anyhow have any insight into how real these numebrs are likely to be over time? How stretched is the budget in general? How about the broader political will?

The Bundeswehr wants too much, too fast in my opinion - procurementwise.

A lot of tight money is artificial. There's not enough money to modernize all those barracks from the 60s? Well, that budget part is frozen at 950 million, while the procurement part during the next 5 years will rise from 5.06 to 6.38 billion.
Procurement-only is actually what all raises of the budget over the next 5 years are planned to be spent on. Pretty much everything else stays as-is.

For the next 5 years, the planned-out procurement is billions above approved funding. Hence why they constantly go "we don't have enough money".

The targeted 30% level is not for procurement but for investment in general. Will be reached in 2011 by current planning.

[kato]

According to newspaper Rheinische Post, the Bundeswehr might be facing serious recruitment problems due to the Afghanistan War.

Ten percent of all officer cadets drop out, often citing Afghanistan as a reason.

Others now prefer jobs in the civilian industry, a problem apparently particularly rising with medical staff and pilots - Navy aviation and Airforce Transport Regiments apparently have up to 30% crew shortage, the small Flugbereitschaft (passenger and VIP jets, but also the A310 MRTTs) had 8 pilots quitting their service since January.
All of these units are currently in high demand due to Afghanistan and UNIFIL, and pilots in such units have had to do multiple tour of duties within the last few years; the Rheinische Post is citing an anonymous transport aviation pilot who has spent one year out of his four service years abroad, and in addition to that has to spend 180 days per year away from his home base.

Applications, depending on service, have been down up to 62% compared to the year before.
Recruitment numbers are still easily met; there were 11,500 applicants for 2,000 officer posts, and 31,000 applicants for 22,000 NCO and enlisted posts last year (the last number dropped about 50% within one year). However, the extremely high drop is a cause for concern, especially if it continues.

Afghanistan is of course not the only reason; financial cuts lately have also been cutting into it, with the Christmas bonus halfed now for example.

[eckherl]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.

Thanks

[Waylander]

According to newspaper Rheinische Post, the Bundeswehr might be facing serious recruitment problems due to the Afghanistan War.

Ten percent of all officer cadets drop out, often citing Afghanistan as a reason.

Others now prefer jobs in the civilian industry, a problem apparently particularly rising with medical staff and pilots - Navy aviation and Airforce Transport Regiments apparently have up to 30% crew shortage, the small Flugbereitschaft (passenger and VIP jets, but also the A310 MRTTs) had 8 pilots quitting their service since January.
All of these units are currently in high demand due to Afghanistan and UNIFIL, and pilots in such units have had to do multiple tour of duties within the last few years; the Rheinische Post is citing an anonymous transport aviation pilot who has spent one year out of his four service years abroad, and in addition to that has to spend 180 days per year away from his home base.

Applications, depending on service, have been down up to 62% compared to the year before.
Recruitment numbers are still easily met; there were 11,500 applicants for 2,000 officer posts, and 31,000 applicants for 22,000 NCO and enlisted posts last year (the last number dropped about 50% within one year). However, the extremely high drop is a cause for concern, especially if it continues.

Afghanistan is of course not the only reason; financial cuts lately have also been cutting into it, with the Christmas bonus halfed now for example.

That happens when you are recruiting young guys with such nice things like free and good universities, good loan and such stuff while failing to mention the core requirements like duty, serving your country and doing what a soldier has to do--> fight in a warzone. :mad:

Ok, the politicians and their continious lack of support for our armed forces also play a big part I guess. In the end this was the reason why I didn't started an officers career.

[sgtgunn]

Anyone know why the Bundswher went with the MG4 as the co-ax for the Puma rather than sticking with the MG3? A 5.56mm vehicle co-ax strikes me as an odd choice. I can understand the possible advantages of ammo commanality with MG4's carried by the dismounts, but it doesn't strike me as so much of an advanatge that it offsets the value of the larger caliber. Plus - those dismounts still have some MG3, right? I'd rather have the extra belted 7.62mm available.

Adrian

[Waylander]

The MG3 is only part of the group if needed.
I would think that space is an answer to the question.
Commonality with the group another one.

Remember that the Puma is designed to fit into an A400M at A configuration. This is a tight fit. For a MG3 one might need a bigger housing.
And the MG3 is slowly getting phased out with no spareparts getting produced anymore.
A new 7,62GPMG is in the pipe and maybe the MG4 in the Puma is only a stopgap solution.

One also gets alot more 5,56mm ammo into an IFV than 7,62mm.
And spray the tundra is one of the main missions for the coax on an IFV.
Massed infantry further away would be dead meat when facing the ABM ammo fo the 30mm, the same goes for infantry behind heavy cover.

In the end I doubt that anybody here really knows the answer.

[kato]

The MG3 is being removed from the infantry squad with introduction of IdZ (Infantry of the Future). The MG4 is a distinct part of IdZ.
I doubt the MG3 would need a larger housing btw - that thing is freaking huge already.

Considering there are only 120 million Euro budgeted for the MG3 successor, i really doubt it will be introduced in as large numbers as the MG3 was spread throughout the Heer. The MG3 successor will likely be rather a heavy machine gun in 7.62x51 suitable for mounting on the FLW series of remote-controlled weapon stations that are essentially replacing almost entirely the current MG3 ring mount, with something like 7,000 or so FLW stations planned on the GFF, GTF, GTK series of vehicles.
The MG4 will then be used by the infantry in place of MG3, as IdZ procurement continues; the MG3 will likely survive for some time still as an "auxiliary defense weapon" on the 6,000 or so remaining "standard" unarmored vehicles in the Bundeswehr, and presumably also, for the same purpose, on the various heavy armoured vehicles in specialist roles (ie Keiler, Dachs, Büffel, PzH2000 etc pp).
No idea what's planned with the tank MGs, but that line in the BwPlan on the Leo urban variant suggests at least such an upgrade would install something like a FLW100 on the loader's position. A heavy MG3 successor, if fitting physically, might be attractive for the coaxial MG.

Btw, does anyone have an idea which M2 variant is used on the FLW200, on those few vehicles that have that combination? Iirc only the AO variant Fennek (4 procured) use the combination of FLW200 with .50cal HMG.
I doubt it's a M3M, which the Navy uses on its helos as door guns. Vanilla M2HB?

[kato]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.


[This Dutch forum (http://forum.fok.nl/topic/403410/10/25)] claims 6120 kg (in post #227, also with lots of pics of it).

[Waylander]

The AO Fenneks use a .50cal?
So far I thought that the BW only uses the MG3 or the GMW while the dutch use .50cals.
BTW, do the dutch use the same universal mount like we do?

[DavidDCM]

Do any of you guys have a approx weight of a MTU MB 873 with tranny.

Thanks

W.J. Spielberger in his book gives the following:

Engine, dry, with air filter: 2.71 (metric) tons

Change speed gearbox and steering gear with air fan, wet: 2,97 tons

Gear, complete incl. cooling system, ready for use: 6,05 tons

Seitenvorgelege (englisch word for that, @waylander?) incl. track drive and brakes: 0,54 tons

[kato]

The AO Fenneks use a .50cal?

That's a M2, and a Y license plate:
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/pix/bw_spaehpz_fennek-050.jpg

Fennek and Dingo (first batch) don't actually use FLW100/200, but the older "Lafette 1530". The 1530 was pretty much the first overhead weapon station used by the Bundeswehr, and features less complicated optronics than the direct successor FLW200, and no optional stabilization.

The Dutch don't use a remote-controlled mount at all on the Fennek, but this apparent standard pintle mount instead:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/730/fennek0ad8.jpg

[eckherl]

Thanks DavidDCM & Kato for the information.

[Waylander]

Thanks for that Kato. :)

[Eggy]

The Dutch don't use a remote-controlled mount at all on the Fennek, but this apparent standard pintle mount instead:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/730/fennek0ad8.jpg
It's an RWS but can be used like a pintle mount as well.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/EggyNL/pathangar02.jpg

[kato]

Ah, thanks, didn't know that.

[kato]

Vehicles of the Army (http://www.europaeische-sicherheit.de/Ausgaben/2008/2008_11/04_Klos/2008,11,04.html) (in German), current issue of ES (http://europäische-sicherheit.de/).

Couple things from that:

GTK Boxer:
First Batch:
85 Squad Carriers, FLW 100 / .50cal MG
65 Command Vehicle, FLW 100 / .50 cal MG
40 Support Vehicles, FLW 200 / 40mm GMG
72 Medical Carriers, unarmed
The "Support Vehicles" with 40mm GMG would likely replace the platoon-level 40mm GMG mounted on Wolf currently with light infantry units.
Procurement planned starting 2009.
14 vehicles per infantry company planned; likely structure two command vehicles for company plus three platoons with one command vehicle, two squad carriers and one support vehicle each. Command vehicles outfitted for 2+[3 to 5] soldiers, other vehicles for 2+10. Command Vehicles will act as hubs for IdZ/IdZ-ES integration into FüInfoSysH (below) for their subunits.

Offhand, above first batch is going to one airmobile infantry coy (in JgRgt 1), three coys mountain infantry (1 btl), three coys light infantry (JgBtl 292), and remainder (two battalions strength?) will likely be abused for deployment purposes as alternative equipment e.g. for mechanized infantry or paratroopers.

IdZ-ES (enhanced IdZ)
Initial requirement: 470 sets
Total requirement: 1100 sets
(one infantry squad of 10 men per set; 1100 would be enough for pretty much all infantry units of any type in the Army)

Modification to IdZ: Integration into FüInfoSysH Army C4I system; additional sensors; modified targeting systems / sights for weapons; use of fuel cells.
Procurement planned starting 2009.

Leopard 2
Waylander, something for you :D

All KPz Leopard 2 will be refitted in the "modification for enhanced task spectrum". This refit will contain: improvement of 360-degree awareness; enhanced protection in the rear and upper sections; integration into Army IFIS C3; new 120mm HE ammunition; FCS modification to 5000m max range for HE. Refitted tanks will be "heavier and somewhat less mobile".
Refit: 2010+

50 "Kpz Urban Operations" will be procured, 2012+, using a number of systems from the PSO project.

[harryriedl]

Vehicles of the Army (http://www.europaeische-sicherheit.de/Ausgaben/2008/2008_11/04_Klos/2008,11,04.html) (in German), current issue of ES (http://europäische-sicherheit.de/).

Couple things from that:

GTK Boxer:
First Batch:
85 Squad Carriers, FLW 100 / .50cal MG
65 Command Vehicle, FLW 100 / .50 cal MG
40 Support Vehicles, FLW 200 / 40mm GMG
72 Medical Carriers, unarmed
The "Support Vehicles" with 40mm GMG would likely replace the platoon-level 40mm GMG mounted on Wolf currently with light infantry units.
Procurement planned starting 2009.
14 vehicles per infantry company planned; likely structure two command vehicles for company plus three platoons with one command vehicle, two squad carriers and one support vehicle each. Command vehicles outfitted for 2+[3 to 5] soldiers, other vehicles for 2+10. Command Vehicles will act as hubs for IdZ/IdZ-ES integration into FüInfoSysH (below) for their subunits.

Offhand, above first batch is going to one airmobile infantry coy (in JgRgt 1), three coys mountain infantry (1 btl), three coys light infantry (JgBtl 292), and remainder (two battalions strength?) will likely be abused for deployment purposes as alternative equipment e.g. for mechanized infantry or paratroopers.

IdZ-ES (enhanced IdZ)
Initial requirement: 470 sets
Total requirement: 1100 sets
(one infantry squad of 10 men per set; 1100 would be enough for pretty much all infantry units of any type in the Army)

Modification to IdZ: Integration into FüInfoSysH Army C4I system; additional sensors; modified targeting systems / sights for weapons; use of fuel cells.
Procurement planned starting 2009.

Leopard 2
Waylander, something for you :D

All KPz Leopard 2 will be refitted in the "modification for enhanced task spectrum". This refit will contain: improvement of 360-degree awareness; enhanced protection in the rear and upper sections; integration into Army IFIS C3; new 120mm HE ammunition; FCS modification to 5000m max range for HE. Refitted tanks will be "heavier and somewhat less mobile".
Refit: 2010+

50 "Kpz Urban Operations" will be procured, 2012+, using a number of systems from the PSO project.
will the Boxer go A-Stan to replace the or as an addition to the Wolf.

Also is the IzD going to be issued when needed on an arms room concept or is going to be general issue

[kato]

IdZ (IdZ-ES) is supposed to be issued generally, to all infantry squads. Hubbed Nodes for the C4I system will be established in Boxer, Puma (and in the future likely Bv-206S), and introduction of IdZ-ES will likely match the introduction of these systems.
The only unit to widely issue IdZ so far is JgBtl 292 afaik, with the system nodes mounted in Fuchs APCs.

I have no doubt we'll see Boxer in Afghanistan at some point. Couple years from now. Not as a Wolf replacement though - after all Boxer weighs about 10 times as much, and is about that much bigger too. Boxer will replace Fuchs APCs effectively in that role (currently 150 deployed in AFG and Balkans).
Wolf will at some point in the future be replaced by the GFF 1 vehicle class. When they find a vehicle that actually matches the requirements.

[Waylander]

As always you provided some very interesting facts and news.

Thanks for that!

And yeah these news are something for me. :D

Like the news before it seems like the Leopards are getting some much needed general upgrades which will give them strength and survivability well into the next century while the Bundeswehr finally adopts the idea of tanks in a supporting role in an urban environment (More than just saying "give this PzGren coy an additionally tanks platoon and lets see what they can make out of it").