Saudi Arabia to order more Eurofighter Typhoon

[AtaSaudi]

Saudi Arabia intends to order extra 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft for £20 billion. It is worth mentioning that the Saudis bought 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in 2005 for over £4 billion:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUKLA46133920080810?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

[tphuang]

Saudi Arabia intends to order extra 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft for £20 billion. It is worth mentioning that the Saudis bought 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft in 2005 for over £4 billion:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUKLA46133920080810?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
It's really amazing, how many typhoons do the Saudi's really need? It's a great fighter, but they are going to have like 120 typhoon now.

[nevidimka]

Typhoon is a great fighter and I think the Saudi's are very happy with the plane and the package they got with it, considering how they got a bad deal with the F15's.
Maybe they are trying to balance Israel's power in the region.

[Feanor]

Whoa. They paid 4 billion pounds for the first batch and 20 billion for the second?

[2S1]

It's really amazing, how many typhoons do the Saudi's really need? It's a great fighter, but they are going to have like 120 typhoon now.

Several years back, Prince Sultan declared their intention to have 200+ Typhoons in service by 2015.

If BAE and Al Salam/AACC get the Saudi-based 'kit'-production facility up and running effectively, then who knows what the final procurement will be?

Typhoon after all not only initially replaces the Tornado ADV; RSAF has had a hole in its OOB since the retirement of the F-5E/F fleet and looking to reactivate those squadrons.

Their F-15 C/D fleet also is now closing on 30 years of age, with many of the airframes having sustained much higher-than-avegrage flight hours. Already older F-15Cs are being retired, one can be seen today in Riyadh's excellent RSAF Museum for instance.

[2S1]

Whoa. They paid 4 billion pounds for the first batch and 20 billion for the second?

The 20 Billion quoted by the press is slightly misleading in my opinion, this figure almost certainly includes the estimated through-life cost of the programme as well as seperate training, maintanence and weapons packages. The original 4 Billion quote was only for the initial outlay Saudi would have to pay.

From what I hear also and this is not mentioned, any second deal will also include up to 20 Hawk Mk 120 series LIFT to allow for the retirement of their older Hawk Mk.65s. Their Hawk fleet last year celebrated 1 million flight hours, however they are deemed inadequate for training pilots destined for Typhoon.

[SaudiArabian]

it will be an excellent deal and yes Prince Sultan did mention on Saudi TV channel 1 that the plans are to aquire over 200 Typhoons (i remember he said an exact number around 220 but i forgot it)

It's really amazing, how many typhoons do the Saudi's really need? It's a great fighter, but they are going to have like 120 typhoon now.

Saudi Arabia has very large mostly desert lands to defend and it lies in a hostile area surrounded by various threats from several directions. the need for a large and strong air force with large ground attack capabilities is very high.

considering how they got a bad deal with the F15's.
Maybe they are trying to balance Israel's power in the region.
the F-15s deals were not bad. its the best jet fighter ever served so far in the RSAF. the problem is that buying them is a political pain in the nick.

[2S1]

it will be an excellent deal and yes Prince Sultan did mention on Saudi TV channel 1 that the plans are to aquire over 200 Typhoons (i remember he said an exact number around 220 but i forgot it)



Saudi Arabia has very large mostly desert lands to defend and it lies in a hostile area surrounded by various threats from several directions. the need for a large and strong air force with large ground attack capabilities is very high.


the F-15s deals were not bad. its the best jet fighter ever served so far in the RSAF. the problem is that buying them is a political pain in the nick.


Agreed. The RSAF is certainly the most responsive and cost-effective means by which Saudi can defend it's large land mass.

I would also agree that the original F-15 deal was not so bad financially, but Saudi's problems getting anything via the US Congress are well documented. The refusal to allow the Reagan Administration to sell further batches of F-15 being the clearest example. Later problems involving E-3 AWACS, downgrading Saudi's Strike Eagles and the current rumblings in regards JDAM are testemant to things haven't really changed.

Indeed, there are rumours BAE has had to be extra dilligent in concerns to US-manufactured avionic components used in Eurofighter Typhoon destined for the RSAF.

[perfectgeneral]

A batch of 72 multiplied by three makes 216 Typhoons. Was that the figure? Does this make the SA Kingdom the second largest customer for Typhoon after the UK?

They really should get in at the ground floor on the next Eurofighter project. They could put the extra money they currently pay as an export customer to improve the capabity of the next fighter project.

[Feanor]

Time will tell. From what I can see, the Saudi's prefer to diversify, to avoif complications or being forced to buy something they don't need or don't want.

[otester]

Will they get the Meteor BVRAAM?

If so then that will put them ahead of Israel in air-to-air power.

[2S1]

Will they get the Meteor BVRAAM?

If so then that will put them ahead of Israel in air-to-air power.

It's fair to say that it's very probable they will get Meteor. Their Tornado Sustainment deal (which brings them up to GR4 spec) includes Storm Shadow, Brimstone, ASRAAM and Paveway IV; the precedent of getting the best kit available has been set.

They will need a lot more than just Meteor however to be considered the region's premier air power in my opinion.

[otester]

It's fair to say that it's very probable they will get Meteor. Their Tornado Sustainment deal (which brings them up to GR4 spec) includes Storm Shadow, Brimstone, ASRAAM and Paveway IV; the precedent of getting the best kit available has been set.

They will need a lot more than just Meteor however to be considered the region's premier air power in my opinion.

Does SA have AWACS or do they rely on ground radars?

[2S1]

Does SA have AWACS or do they rely on ground radars?


The Royal Saudi Air Force were the first export customer for the Boeing E-3A Sentry AWACS. Their 18 Squadron operates 5 E-3 from Prince Sultan AFB near Riyadh. Their usual area of operation is over the Persian Gulf, monitoring Iran.

Their ground-based radar network cost over 8 Billion US dollars to build and considered second only to that defending NATO. 30+ radars linked to five underground command centres which communicate via a hardened fibre-optic/microwave network.

The only problem the Saudis have is that they don't have enough staff to operate all this sophisticated Western kit.

[SaudiArabian]

The only problem the Saudis have is that they don't have enough staff to operate all this sophisticated Western kit.

on the contrary , there are more than enough staff to operate these ground radar systems. the problems lies within these ground systems itself because they are not as sophisticated as what some people think. the israeli air violations in 2002~2003 and the Saudi ground radars failure to detect them properly was a clear sign to me of its ineffectivity.

[2S1]

on the contrary , their are more than enough staff to operate these ground radar systems. the problems lies within these ground systems itself because they are not as sophisticated as what some people think. the israeli air violations in 2002~2003 and the Saudi ground radars failure to detect them properly was a clear sign to me of its ineffectivity.

SaudiArabian are you agreeing with me thus that within most complex of surveillance networks, there maybe holes?

If so,SaudiArabian talk to Chambo.

[SaudiArabian]

SaudiArabian are you agreeing with me thus that within most complex of surveillance networks, there maybe holes?

If so,SaudiArabian talk to Chambo.

its not a "maybe" , its a certainty! it only takes time to figure out these holes and use them to take advantage.

[eaf-f16]

on the contrary , there are more than enough staff to operate these ground radar systems. the problems lies within these ground systems itself because they are not as sophisticated as what some people think. the israeli air violations in 2002~2003 and the Saudi ground radars failure to detect them properly was a clear sign to me of its ineffectivity.

There were Israeli air violations into Saudi airspace? I know there were regular violations of Syrian airspace by the Israelis before but I assumed this was because they had no means of preventing them. But violating Saudi airspace is pretty ballsy.

[2S1]

There were Israeli air violations into Saudi airspace? I know there were regular violations of Syrian airspace by the Israelis before but I assumed this was because they had no means of preventing them. But violating Saudi airspace is pretty ballsy.

eaf-f16. When the Israel attacked Osirak, they flew 70% of their mission over Saudi airspace to do it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020778.stm

And I speculate; the Israeli attack was done in conjunction with the Saudis...

[eaf-f16]

eaf-f16. When the Israel attacked Osirak, they flew 70% of their mission over Saudi airspace to do it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020778.stm

And I speculate; the Israeli attack was done in conjunction with the Saudis...

I don't think RSAF had AWACS back then and the Israelis were flying below radar coverage. But SaudiArabian is talking about airspace violations as late as 2003 which would mean the Israelis were going in there accepting the very real possibility of interception by RSAF F-15C/D/S's.

I'm interested to know if the Israelis violated Saudi airspace with fighter-jets or drones and how Saudi air defense reacted.

[2S1]

its not a "maybe" , its a certainty! it only takes time to figure out these holes and use them to take advantage.


With a land mass like Saudi Arabia, I don't know whether we can ever cover all these holes? The multi-billion-Dollar MIKSA border plan for example reminds me almost of the failed McNamara Line in 1970's Vietnam.

[2S1]

I don't think RSAF had AWACS back then and the Israelis were flying below radar coverage. But SaudiArabian is talking about airspace violations as late as 2003 which would mean the Israelis were going in there accepting the very real possibility of interception by RSAF F-15C/D/S's.

I'm interested to know if the Israelis violated Saudi airspace with fighter-jets or drones and how Saudi air defense reacted.

eaf-f16 They had AWACS and F-15, there is even a rumour that the Israelis refuelled in/over Saudi.

[SaudiArabian]

eaf-f16 They had AWACS and F-15, there is even a rumour that the Israelis refuelled in/over Saudi.

that is completely not true. the RSAF received its first AWACS in 1985~1986 while it received its first F-15C in 1982.

but the bombing of Osirak reactor took place in 1981. and that bombing would not have happened without the US full support.

US technicians have shot off the radars for maintainance while the Saudi radar operators agreed considering it a normal precedure and considering it a normal day just like everyday else. this is what caused Israel Air Force to succeed in passing into Iraq and return without detection.

but means were taken to prevent this from happening again. after the RSAF aquired the F-15Cs and the E-3's , its interception capability was very high.

the Kingdom also stepped in and financed Iraq with several billions of $ to start another nuclear reactor and aquire more weapons.

and in 1988 when israel air force started preparing to bomb Al-Sulayyil Strategic base deep inside KSA , the RSAF was very successful in blocking the Saudi airspace and preventing any attack from happening using AWACS and F-15C's

I'm interested to know if the Israelis violated Saudi airspace with fighter-jets or drones and how Saudi air defense reacted.
spy planes and drones. it didn't carry any weapons.

they get intercepted sometimes but the orders and protocols are to engage them , force them to land or force them out of the airspace but not to fire unless enemy fires first.

[2S1]

US technicians have shut off the radars for maintainance while the Saudi radar operators agreed considering it a normal precedure and considering it a normal day just like everyday else. this is what caused Israel Air Force to succeed in passing into Iraq and return without detection.


Is it normal procedure to turn every single radar along the northern border off all at the same time? I seriously hope that is not SOP.

What about the HAWK batteries near Tabuk and Ar'ar, did they turn off their radars too? Those IDAF F-16s were literally tens of miles from Tabuk's King Faisal Air Base, I guess their ATC radar was down for maintenance as well. Why didn't Jordan's radar net pick them up? IDAF didn't even fly low level!

I'm sorry, but there just too much circumstance to deny and I refuse to believe Saudi didn't know what was going to happen beforehand.

[eaf-f16]

in 1988 when israel air force started preparing to bomb Al-Sulayyil Strategic base deep inside KSA , the RSAF was very successful in blocking the Saudi airspace and preventing any attack from happening using AWACS and F-15C's

Do you have any sources on this? It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I want to read more about it.

Is it normal procedure to turn every single radar along the northern border off all at the same time? I seriously hope that is not SOP.

What about the HAWK batteries near Tabuk and Ar'ar, did they turn off their radars too? Those IDAF F-16s were literally tens of miles from Tabuk's King Faisal Air Base, I guess their ATC radar was down for maintenance as well. Why didn't Jordan's radar net pick them up? IDAF didn't even fly low level!

I'm sorry, but there just too much circumstance to deny and I refuse to believe Saudi didn't know what was going to happen beforehand.

IIRC, the Israelis were flying low-level at 100 feet.

[Actual]

IIRC, the Israelis were flying low-level at 100 feet.

Can fully-laden F-16s go that far total low-level?

They droped their tanks over Saudi territory, surely thats the point. They went Lo-Hi-Lo, with the 'Hi' being over Saudi airspace.

[2S1]

Do you have any sources on this? It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I want to read more about it.

I would like to read that too.

RSAF can't stop group IDASF UAVs crossing over the Saudi border today. Never mind fully armed strike groups.

[SaudiArabian]

Is it normal procedure to turn every single radar along the northern border off all at the same time? I seriously hope that is not SOP.
there is only one single radar station , its in King Faisal Air Base.
maybe now you understand why the MIKASA project includes over 200 radar stations.


What about the HAWK batteries near Tabuk and Ar'ar, did they turn off their radars too? Those IDAF F-16s were literally tens of miles from Tabuk's King Faisal Air Base, I guess their ATC radar was down for maintenance as well. Why didn't Jordan's radar net pick them up? IDAF didn't even fly low level!


the israeli jets were not close to Tabuk. i never heard of any HAWK battery in Arar.

the israeli jets flew through air pathways to avoid any detection. all they needed is to get rid of the Saudi radar and they succeeded in this by the US maintainers.

i don't know about Jordan.


I'm sorry, but there just too much circumstance to deny and I refuse to believe Saudi didn't know what was going to happen beforehand.


i don't "believe" nor "disbelieve" , i rely on facts on what really happened and its what i've been told from individuals who worked there in KFAB.

btw , the govt here doesn't deny that the israeli air force violated KSA's airspace to strike Iraq.




Do you have any sources on this? It's not that I doubt you, it's just that I want to read more about it.
yes.

------------------
Prince Khalid bin Sultan mentioned it but did not give any details about it in his book "Desert Warrior" (i assume you can read Arabic)

http://www.moqatel.com/Mokatel/data/Book/MOK026.HTM
------------------
Deputy Minister of Defense spoke about it in little more details in episode 2 of the 2001 MBC documentary (Fahd , the man , the king) , i have the DVD but don't know how to take clips out of it.
------------------
Reagan Urges Israeli Restraint on Saudi Missiles
Published: March 26, 1988
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DA133FF935A15750C0A96E9482 60
------------------

[divedeep]

Is it normal procedure to turn every single radar along the northern border off all at the same time? I seriously hope that is not SOP.

What about the HAWK batteries near Tabuk and Ar'ar, did they turn off their radars too? Those IDAF F-16s were literally tens of miles from Tabuk's King Faisal Air Base, I guess their ATC radar was down for maintenance as well. Why didn't Jordan's radar net pick them up? IDAF didn't even fly low level!

I'm sorry, but there just too much circumstance to deny and I refuse to believe Saudi didn't know what was going to happen beforehand.

Even if the Saudis knew about the overflight they can't really do much about it due to lack of proficiency in A2A intercept and reaction times-and there is also the fact that the Saudis, Jordanians and Israelis get along quite well.

[Mike_NZ]

Hi everyone, the Saudi Typhoons will be a mix of T1 and T2 typhoons right? What capabilities will they have? Will they have full DASS, PIRATE, A2A and A2G, and what weapons?

[Scorpion82]

Hi everyone, the Saudi Typhoons will be a mix of T1 and T2 typhoons right? What capabilities will they have? Will they have full DASS, PIRATE, A2A and A2G, and what weapons?

No Saudi Typhoons will be Tranche 2, starting with block 8. It is expected that later models will use similar weapons and equippment as RAF aircraft.

[SaudiArabian]

Even if the Saudis knew about the overflight they can't really do much about it due to lack of proficiency in A2A intercept and reaction times-
thats true. all what RSAF has was F-5's , lightnings and strikemasters at that time , they couldn't stand against F-15's and F-16's


and there is also the fact that the Saudis, Jordanians and Israelis get along quite well.

not true , not at that time. as for today , Jordan has a peace treaty with israel but Saudi Arabia maintains the state of war.
read here to understand some more..
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7797

[eaf-f16]

yes.

------------------
Prince Khalid bin Sultan mentioned it but did not give any details about it in his book "Desert Warrior" (i assume you can read Arabic)

http://www.moqatel.com/Mokatel/data/Book/MOK026.HTM
------------------
Deputy Minister of Defense spoke about it in little more details in episode 2 of the 2001 MBC documentary (Fahd , the man , the king) , i have the DVD but don't know how to take clips out of it.
------------------
Reagan Urges Israeli Restraint on Saudi Missiles
Published: March 26, 1988
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DA133FF935A15750C0A96E9482 60
------------------

Thanks for the links, SaudiArabian.

Even if the Saudis knew about the overflight they can't really do much about it due to lack of proficiency in A2A intercept and reaction times-and there is also the fact that the Saudis, Jordanians and Israelis get along quite well.

Saudi Arabia does not collaborate and conspire against other countries with Israel and the Saudis don't have good relations with Israel (although their relationship isn't as bad as it seems). Unless any one of you has any proof that says otherwise, these are all baseless conspiracy theories.

Also, you don't need to be an incredible fighter-pilot to make an enemy bombing mission fail.

[Mike_NZ]

No Saudi Typhoons will be Tranche 2, starting with block 8. It is expected that later models will use similar weapons and equippment as RAF aircraft.

So does that mean they will also have similar upgrades as the RAF? I mean will the Saudis get P1E upgrades and the incremental upgrades too?

[Scorpion82]

So does that mean they will also have similar upgrades as the RAF? I mean will the Saudis get P1E upgrades and the incremental upgrades too?

Details aren't known, but it is likely that the Saudi Typhoons receive similar upgrades.

[mohd2590]

with the huge total of purchase, do they will build at least a factory for the fighter maintenance?any technology transfer occur?:)

[otester]

with the huge total of purchase, do they will build at least a factory for the fighter maintenance?any technology transfer occur?:)

They probably just buy spare parts directly from us.

[swerve]

with the huge total of purchase, do they will build at least a factory for the fighter maintenance?any technology transfer occur?:)
The Saudis plan to buy the first 24 straight off the British assembly line. From then on, they should be assembled in a new factory in Saudi Arabia. Maintenance will be done in Saudi Arabia, as will (probably) any future upgrades. But most, if not all, parts will have to be imported.