can some1 give me a quick leason on South Ossetia?

[comrade004]

i know there is already a thread on this but i need some in-depth questions answered
what is this area???? i know its not a country but who does it belong to? and is russia and georgia fighting over it because some1 crossed the border?

[peterAustralia]

Southern Ossetia is a region of Georgia

This region apparently did not want to be part of Georgia and by use of arms was operating autonomously with support of Russia.

That is about the limit of my knowledge. I think there is another region in Georgia called Abkhazia that has it's own separatist agenda. How the 2 are linked if at all I do not know.

hope this helps a little

[Feanor]

They are both breakaway regions that won a civil war against Georgia in the early 90's. As a result both gained de-facto independence but went unrecognized for decades. While Georgia was weak and dominated by Russia, this was a moot point. However since Saakashvili embarked on a nationalistic course of strengthening Georgia he has made regaining territorial sovereignty a primary objective.

[brian00]

Some other important facts are that the current leader of georgia is US educated and came to power with US assistance

Also for the last year the Georgian military has been recieving assistance and training from Israel who also have an economic interest in the region

Oil seems to be a major factor in this conflict

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/oil-m31.shtml

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4488503.ece

[Aliph Ahmed]

All these hostilities broke after Georgians launched a surprised attack on THURSDAY.

Russians are involved as they were the peacekeepers and are demanding that Georgian troops revert back to the status quo positions before THURSDAY.

It seems highly likely that maps will be redrawn and Russia will not accept anything less then a recognized and soverign South Assetia. Something Georgia wanted to avoid at all costs.

I guess their adventure went drastically wrong.

[nevidimka]

Russia suspects that the georgian president would have got the nod from US b4 launching the attacks on S.Ossetia, considering the scale and daring attack by Georgia.

[Feanor]

I don't think the US would have supported this. Otherwise their current diplomatic response would have been much greater.

[Firehorse]

And I would add that there is a 3rd area called Adjara (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjara), with an important port Batumi on the Turkish border. It would be a miracle if nothing happens there!
Since the Soviet times, the Ossetians had their Northern part in the RF and Southern in Georgia (http://http://www.fpif.org/selfdetermination/conflicts/ossetia_body.html); South Ossetia has long sought unification with North Ossetia (http://http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080808/wl_afp/georgiasossetiarussiaunrest_080808234630;_ylt=ArIP W.eE9mXclnawddJ.N_N_5GIA), which is inhabited by the same Ossetian ethnic group but ended up across the border in Russia after the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.
"There should be only one Ossetia. We want to live with our brothers," said a 37-year-old man in Java who gave his name as Albert, as the Russian column rumbled by with grim-faced soldiers cradling their rifles.

obviously this situation wasn't going to last for long. After the breakup of the FSU, Armenia and Azerbaijan went to war over the Karabakh anclave, Abhazia de-facto seceded from Georgia, Chechnya tried to become independent, Dagestan AR slipped into a low intensity guerilla war, and Ossetian-Ingush conflict (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetian-Ingush_conflict)took place, to name a few (http://http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/46970.html).
But in the bigger scheme of things, as far as Georgia is concerned,

The inhabitants in both regions feared the newly independent Georgian regime would abolish their autonomous status. (http://http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/aug2008/ruge-a09.shtml)
..Washington has systematically manipulated national conflicts in the region to further its own aim of military and economic hegemony. This began with the bloody wars in the former Yugoslavia. ..In the run-up to Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence, Moscow had repeatedly warned that it would set a precedent for similar actions by other territories in the former USSR—Abkhazia and South Ossetia, in particular. In its aftermath, the Russian regime stepped up its support for both territories. ..


edit: there is something wrong with hyperlink function- I can't open them.

More links:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0809/1218206290341.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0809/1218206290351.html?via=rel

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26093313/

http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=286991

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043090/The-war-South-Ossetia-dangerous-flashpoint-Cuban-crisis-says-historian.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/world/europe/10georgia.html?partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

[swerve]

All these hostilities broke after Georgians launched a surprised attack on THURSDAY.

Russians are involved as they were the peacekeepers and are demanding that Georgian troops revert back to the status quo positions before THURSDAY.

It seems highly likely that maps will be redrawn and Russia will not accept anything less then a recognized and soverign South Assetia. Something Georgia wanted to avoid at all costs.

I guess their adventure went drastically wrong.
No, the current fighting started on August 1st, & there had been one or two previous incidents, e.g. an attack on the head of the administration of the Georgian-controlled parts of S. Ossetia on July 3rd by a remote-controlled mine. There was a brief - very brief - ceasefire midweek, but fighting had resumed before the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali on Thursday.

Notionally, the peacekeeping force was made up of equal numbers of Russians, S. Ossetians, N. Ossetians, & Georgians. The Georgians claim they were reacting to provocations by S. Ossetians, including the killing of some Georgian members of the peacekeeping force.

But yes, it has gone drastically wrong for Georgia.

[Feanor]

They claim that this was in response to Russian planes dropping bombs on Gori before the conflict actually really started.

[chris]

edit: there is something wrong with hyperlink function- I can't open them.


It seems that it places an http:// in front of your http:// resulting in http://http://www.address. Try deleting yours.
Sorry for the off topic but I cannot PM yet.

[not_so_sis]

When russia implies that Georgia is commiting genocides in what ways have these actually been commited? and is it really genocide or is this Russian propoganda ?

[Feanor]

It's massive anti-civlian artillery barrages and some alleged sniper targetting. Given the intensity of the artillery barrages and the rather small size of the region in question the demographic damage is unpleasant.

[eaf-f16]

When russia implies that Georgia is commiting genocides in what ways have these actually been commited? and is it really genocide or is this Russian propoganda ?

Right now, S.Ossetia is recognized and claimed as a Georgian territory. Just like Kurdistan in Iraq.

When a state massacres the civilian populations of it's own (claimed and recognized) territories, it is committing genocide. So, when Georgia sends a massive barrage of artillery into civilian areas and levels entire villages and cities while residents are a sleep then that can count as genocide. Especially if the 2,000 killed figure is true.

[comrade004]

thanks guys

[f-22fan12]

I don't think the US would have supported this. Otherwise their current diplomatic response would have been much greater.

I wouldn't be so sure. The U.S. and Russia may be fighting another "proxy war" I don't think Georgia would carry out such an attack without some kind of "ok" from America.

[f-22fan12]

When russia implies that Georgia is commiting genocides in what ways have these actually been commited? and is it really genocide or is this Russian propoganda ?

Russian Prime Minister Putin said that their attack was like commiting genocide. Suggesting that they would be defeated very quickly and easily and that fighting Russia is hopeless.

[nevidimka]

I wouldn't be so sure. The U.S. and Russia may be fighting another "proxy war" I don't think Georgia would carry out such an attack without some kind of "ok" from America.

Yes, its hard to believe that some form of agreement was not reached b4 the attack was launched. Here is a small nation thats being armed and trained by US and other western parties. And all of the sudden it goes and attacks Russian peacekeepers in the S.Ossetian region?

I'm not sure how Saakashvilli and his silent partners anticipated RUssia's response , But I believe they are caught with surprise by Russia's massive show of force. Perhaps the recent bout of Russian failures on Iraq, Kosovo etc made them confident that Russia would not retaliate or come in support of the S.Ossetians. Perhaps they thought after the "success" of georgians lightning attacks capturing S.Ossetia, Russia would be drawn into the negotiation table only voicing their protest, which would eventually be drowned out by Western support and Georgia formally taking the region?

[comrade004]

can some1 tell me of im right?
Geirgia invades S ossiena, which they are not allowed to. while they are there they commit acts of genocide and kill russian peacekeepers in the process. so russia steps in and bombs georgia and forced them to retreat?

[Feanor]

can some1 tell me of im right?
Geirgia invades S ossiena, which they are not allowed to. while they are there they commit acts of genocide and kill russian peacekeepers in the process. so russia steps in and bombs georgia and forced them to retreat?

Pretty much. Except that the genocide part is unconfirmed. They did kill a lot of civilians though.

[Burunsuzoglu]

can some1 tell me of im right?
Geirgia invades S ossiena, which they are not allowed to. while they are there they commit acts of genocide and kill russian peacekeepers in the process. so russia steps in and bombs georgia and forced them to retreat?

How do you invade your sovereign territory?

[kato]

Background:

[1991-1992: Civil War in South Ossetia, and pretty much Georgia as a whole]

November 1991 - Russian Parliament threatens Georgia with economic sanctions if failed to take steps to end the conflict and restore South Ossetia’s autonomy.
[...]
24 June 1992 - Shevardnadze and Yeltsin meets to discuss the question of South Ossetia and agree in principle on a cease-fire and the establishment of a Joint Control Commission.
[...]
14 July 1992 - Russian peace-keeping operation starts (three-sided peace-keeping forces - Russians, Georgians and South Ossetians) upon agreement between Russian government, the Georgian State Council and of the Supreme Soviet of South Ossetia.
[...]
8 October 1993 - Georgia joins the Commonwealth of Independent States (SNG) and makes agreement on Russian military bases in Georgia.
[...]
15 August 1994 - CSCE (OSCE) proposal for a framework for a constitutional model as a political solution for the Georgian - South Ossetian conflict. The proposal is rejected by both parties.
[...]
May 1996 - Shevardnadze and the South Ossetian leader Ludwig Chibirov sign a ‘Memorandum on measures for providing security and joint confidence’ in which the two sides renounce the use of force.

---

Hence why:
a) no Georgian forces in South Ossetia (other than some police working jointly with South Ossetian units)
b) some 500 Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia
c) independant official South-Ossetian militia
d) defined (and checked) border between Georgia and semi-autonomous region of South Ossetia

Georgia sent units across this border, violating the 1996 memorandum, attempting to occupy South Ossetia militarily, and in the process attacking and isolating Russian peacekeeping units; Russia officially uses these attacks to militarily "re-open" LOC and LOS to its peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia, and removes all "threats" to this peacekeeping force.

[DefConGuru]

Well Georgia was flexing it's muscles for NATO consideration because they thought they would Blitzkrieg Ossetia like it was 1939 and gain considerable international acclaim but the plan backfired.

An interesting quote from the Georgian leader during a press conference regarding the conflict,

"We are also fighting for a future world order."

Translation : American approved and certified.

[Burunsuzoglu]

Well Georgia was flexing it's muscles for NATO consideration because they thought they would Blitzkrieg Ossetia like it was 1939 and gain considerable international acclaim but the plan backfired.

An interesting quote from the Georgian leader during a press conference regarding the conflict,

"We are also fighting for a future world order."

Translation : American approved and certified.

Thank you for giving us the Russian propaganda, but the reality is Russia has being baiting Georgia for weeks (encroaching Georgian air space, taking out UAVs etc...). In any event France and Germany (with hypocrisy) had already blocked their entrance to NATO, thereby inviting Russia to go as far as they did.

Latest news is, Russians have completely taken Gori (looting and robbing refugees), and at least 60 Russian vehicles were seen heading South on the Tbilisi Road.

[Preceptor]

Locking thread to restrict discussion to just one active thread. Keep in mind that one-liners, Off topic posting, and disrespectful or derogatory comments directed at other members or nations are against the forum rules. Such posting behavior is not appreciated or allowed, and can result in threads being locked and the posters' being banned. At present, this is the third thread on this topic closed, either due to posting issues, or to pre-empt posting issues. At present, factual discussion is still permitted on the general Georgia/Russia/South Ossentia conflict. Further problems on this topic will result in the subject being closed for discussion.
-Preceptor