BAE Hawk kicked out of Singapore advanced trainer contest

[just.sentinel]

There is a report in flightglobal.com that the BAE Hawk has not made it to the shortlist for the Singapore AJT competition. If this is true, then this is really the end for a wonderful aircraft.

I wonder if the T-50 and M-346 really are the future, or if the proposed European trainer is the one we should all be looking out for. Do we really need such advanced trainers in the first place?

Contrary to what a lot of people say, I think we do. Pilots need that extra bit of experience before going on to the F-35, for example, and that is what these newer jet trainers provide.

[pshamim]

There is a report in flightglobal.com that the BAE Hawk has not made it to the shortlist for the Singapore AJT competition. If this is true, then this is really the end for a wonderful aircraft.

I wonder if the T-50 and M-346 really are the future, or if the proposed European trainer is the one we should all be looking out for. Do we really need such advanced trainers in the first place?

Contrary to what a lot of people say, I think we do. Pilots need that extra bit of experience before going on to the F-35, for example, and that is what these newer jet trainers provide.

That is bizarre. If you really think that this may be end of the AJT-Hawk, then I must saythat Indians should had picked L-159B when it was offered to them against Hawk.

On a personal note, I do not think that Hawk is dead or will d1e soon.

[just.sentinel]

But remember how long it took before India actually decided that it would buy the Hawk? Almost 20 years.

And when it was chosen, the Hawk was still the leading aircraft for advanced jet training. Since then, however, the M-346 and the T-50 have come on board and they are superior to the Hawk in many ways.

[just.sentinel]

And when i say the Hawk is dead, I mean that I doubt any country that would want an aircraft for advanced jet training purposes would choose it again. Why would they when there are better alternatives like the T-50 or the M-346 ?

The Hawk will continue to serve in the countries that have already ordered it, including India, but without any new orders very soon its production line will stop next year. It would make it even more expensive to order the Hawk then as it is costly to restart a production line that has become idle. That is why I think the Hawk is dead.

[aaaditya]

indian navy plans to acquire some for its naval air training role ,also the indian airforce is quite happy with the hawk and intends to place a followup order.

[swerve]

There is a report in flightglobal.com that the BAE Hawk has not made it to the shortlist for the Singapore AJT competition. If this is true, then this is really the end for a wonderful aircraft.

I wonder if the T-50 and M-346 really are the future, or if the proposed European trainer is the one we should all be looking out for. Do we really need such advanced trainers in the first place?

Contrary to what a lot of people say, I think we do. Pilots need that extra bit of experience before going on to the F-35, for example, and that is what these newer jet trainers provide.

Can you provide the exact text, or a link, please?

[Edit]
Ah - found it. It's true. Interesting. A major blow, given the reputation of the RSAF for choosing with great care.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/14/225319/exclusive-singapore-eliminates-bae-hawk-from-trainer.html

Makes one read this (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/15/225235/bae-systems-promotes-major-upgrade-programme-for-hawk.html) article in a very different light.

[kotay]

Different article in flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/07/14/225319/exclusive-singapore-eliminates-bae-hawk-from-trainer.html)


EXCLUSIVE: Singapore eliminates BAE Hawk from trainer contest
By Siva Govindasamy

Singapore has eliminated BAE Systems' Hawk 128 from its advanced jet trainer competition, leaving the Alenia Aermacchi M-346 and Korea Aerospace Industries/Lockheed Martin T-50 to battle it out for the contract, and casting futher doubt on the future of the British aviation icon.

The southeast Asian country made the decision last week, and will hold detailed briefings with the remaining candidates and conduct further flight trials for the aircraft in the coming months, say industry sources. Singapore has given the bidders only broad guidelines on its requirements and left them to recommend aircraft numbers and costs. A final decision is expected around mid-2009.

"BAE Systems is disappointed and surprised to learn that it has not been successful," the company says in a statement. "We believe that the aircraft's capabilities, allied to the low cost of through-life ownership and BAE's pedigree in delivering training solutions make the Hawk an ideal platform."


© BAE Systems

Coming nine months after the United Arab Emirates also eliminated the Hawk from its AJT requirement against the same competitors, Singapore’s decision could sound the death-knell for the type, believe some sources. The Hawk fell short of what is required to train pilots for fifth generation fighters and was assessed to be technologically inferior to its competitors, say sources familiar with the decision.

“This is a significant move by Singapore, which does not make defence decisions lightly. The Hawk has served well for the last 30 years but Singapore has basically said that its time is up,” says an industry source. “The T-50 and M-346 are now the future. Unless BAE spends billions of dollars developing a brand new trainer, it is probably out of the game.”

However, BAE counters this view, saying: "We will actively pursue new opportunities where we feel Hawk meets the air force's requirements and supports our through-life strategy." In the meantime, it adds: "Our focus will continue to be on delivering our existing production contracts for India, South Africa and the UK, and on providing through-life support to many of the 19 existing Hawk operators."

Increasing the uncertainty over the future of Hawk, orders nearing an end from the UK and the US Navy, which operates the Boeing-modified T-45 Goshawk. BAE has been in talks with India’s Hindustan Aeronautics about possibly moving its Hawk production facilities to South Asia, but nothing has been firmed up.

Lockheed helped to develop the T-50 and works with KAI to market the aircraft globally, while rival Boeing is Alenia Aermacchi’s partner and helps the Italian company to promote its M-346 and M-311 trainers. Their presence is significant, say observers. Singapore has ordered 24 Boeing F-15s and may buy more, operates the region's largest fleet of Lockheed F-16s, and is considering the Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter for its future requirements.

The involvement of the two US defence contractors also means that the T-50 and M-346 are likely to be among the favourites when the US Air Force opens its own AJT competition in a few years.

Additional reporting by Craig Hoyle at Farnborough

[kotay]

ah bugger ... looks like you found the article while i was posting it :)

[swerve]

ah bugger ... looks like you found the article while i was posting it :)

And re-wrote my post to take account of it. Synchronicity, eh? :D

[pshamim]

indian navy plans to acquire some for its naval air training role ,also the indian airforce is quite happy with the hawk and intends to place a followup order.

Production lines are still open as India has not received all the aircrafts. So getting some more at competitive price should not be a problem for India. Indian Air Force may be happy with the Trainer now.

But even before the first Indian AJT crashed last April, There were whispers shortly after the Hawks landed in Bidar that the IAF was miffed with the quality of spares and some assemblies, though nothing could be confirmed at that time. Sice then there has been silence about the reason for the crash.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Production lines are still open as India has not received all the aircrafts. So getting some more at competitive price should not be a problem for India. Indian Air Force may be happy with the Trainer now.

But even before the first Indian AJT crashed last April, There were whispers shortly after the Hawks landed in Bidar that the IAF was miffed with the quality of spares and some assemblies, though nothing could be confirmed at that time. Sice then there has been silence about the reason for the crash.

Yes, blame it on the " miffed quality" of spares and/or the British accent. :rolleyes:

Inquiry into Indian air force BAE Systems Hawk trainer crash reveals pilot error

By Radhakrishna Rao

DATE:24/06/08


An Indian air force inquiry into the crash of one of its brand-new BAE Systems Hawk 132 advanced jet trainers at Bidar air base on 29 April has revealed that pilot error and miscommunication between the crews of two aircraft that were taking off simultaneously were responsible for the accident.

The aircraft was destroyed, but its pilot ejected safely.

A brief grounding order imposed following the mishap has contributed to a delay in BAE meeting its planned delivery schedule for 24 UK-built Hawks from India's 66-aircraft, $1.75 billion deal. The remainder will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics. The Indian air force - which has now received 12 aircraft - also says some deficiencies have been found in its initial examples, citing "corrosion in some hydraulic pipes, oxygen leaks and a malfunction of the quick disconnect equipment connector".

BAE confirms that it is working with its customer to address some "outstanding issues". It adds: "Both parties are keen to ensure the rigorous acceptance procedures continue. We fully expect the Indian air force to be able to commence flying training with their new Hawks during the summer."

The Indian defence ministry also plans to buy a second batch of 40 Hawks for the air force, plus 17 for the navy.

India's air force has recorded more than 170 aircraft mishaps since 1970, during which 180 pilots have lost their lives. Around half of the accidents were subsequently blamed on human error.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/06/24/224816/inquiry-into-indian-air-force-bae-systems-hawk-trainer-crash-reveals-pilot-error.html

[kams]

Production lines are still open as India has not received all the aircrafts. So getting some more at competitive price should not be a problem for India. Indian Air Force may be happy with the Trainer now.
But even before the first Indian AJT crashed last April, There were whispers shortly after the Hawks landed in Bidar that the IAF was miffed with the quality of spares and some assemblies, though nothing could be confirmed at that time. Sice then there has been silence about the reason for the crash.

Competitive price ? News reports suggest deal for additional Hawks almost brokedown as BAE asked for around 50% more price!

Relationship b/w IAF and BAE are, err. let's say a bit testy at this point. Heard some interesting stories, but lets leave it at that.:)

[pshamim]

Competitive price ? News reports suggest deal for additional Hawks almost brokedown as BAE asked for around 50% more price!

Relationship b/w IAF and BAE are, err. let's say a bit testy at this point. Heard some interesting stories, but lets leave it at that.:)

No I was quoting Aaditya who said that IAF is quite pleased with AJT and intends to place a follow up order. Indian Navy may place an order too-His words.

BAE is definitely playing Shylock if what you say is true.

[kams]

No I was quoting Aaditya who said that IAF is quite pleased with AJT and intends to place a follow up order. Indian Navy may place an order too-His words.

BAE is definitely playing Shylock if what you say is true.

They want to place order for total of 57 but....
BAE Systems wants more for its 57 Hawks (http://www.livemint.com/2008/06/27000352/BAE-Systems-wants-more-for-its.html)

Who knows, now that BAE is out of Singapore race, may change their mind.:D:D

[just.sentinel]

I think it is too late for India to change their mind - they have decided on one aircraft and it just makes better sense operationally and economically to stick to it. It is not that the Hawk is lousy aircraft, I just feel that it is just that it is not really up to the standards required to train pilots for fifth generation fighters.

Also, if I am not mistaken, most of the remaining Indian Hawks will be manufactured in India by HAL. So BAE will not continue with the production in the UK. In fact, I remember that there was talk about moving the Hawk production line wholesale to India.

[swerve]

Also, if I am not mistaken, most of the remaining Indian Hawks will be manufactured in India by HAL. So BAE will not continue with the production in the UK. In fact, I remember that there was talk about moving the Hawk production line wholesale to India.

Indeed. IIRC, BAe has more-or-less offered India the Hawk, lock, stock & barrel. All Hawks, including any for sale to 3rd parties, to be built in India, with BAe providing some components & sharing any future development. But no agreement so far.

[nevidimka]

I find no suprises there. Hawk has a bad reputation for a trainer, what with it falling out of the sky too often in the countries its serving and with the complaints received form Indian Air force right from day 1 delivery.
PLus its and old design, new buyers should logically look at newer designs and more reliable planes.

[swerve]

Strange that you say it has a bad reputation, when it has sold to so many customers, over so many years. Which trainers (excluding any not yet in service) can you name with a better reputation, & can you explain their sales records? And why did Singapore, with its reputation for taking extreme care in selection, shortlist the Hawk?

[kams]

I think it is too late for India to change their mind - they have decided on one aircraft and it just makes better sense operationally and economically to stick to it. It is not that the Hawk is lousy aircraft, I just feel that it is just that it is not really up to the standards required to train pilots for fifth generation fighters.

.

I meant BAE may change their mind about 50% price escalation. Sorry for not being clear.

Swerve, do you remember whether the original contract had any options for more airframes? I just can't find the info.

[pshamim]

I meant BAE may change their mind about 50% price escalation. Sorry for not being clear.

Swerve, do you remember whether the original contract had any options for more airframes? I just can't find the info.

No! The contract was strictly for 66 AJTs with no more option to buy. Out of the 66, BAE was to provide 24 and 42 to be manufactured in India.

[kams]

No! The contract was strictly for 66 AJTs with no more option to buy. Out of the 66, BAE was to provide 24 and 42 to be manufactured in India.

Hmm, strange isn't it.

[just.sentinel]

Well, not so strange perhaps. I suppose the idea, at the back of the mind, was always for HAL to continue with the production if the IAF needed more Hawks. Unless HAL decides that it will go ahead with an advanced trainer based on the Sitara and the Tejas - though I doubt that.

[nevidimka]

Strange that you say it has a bad reputation, when it has sold to so many customers, over so many years. Which trainers (excluding any not yet in service) can you name with a better reputation, & can you explain their sales records? And why did Singapore, with its reputation for taking extreme care in selection, shortlist the Hawk?


Sorry, I've might have worded it improperly. I know that the hawk's are a famous trainers widely exported, and I do like its design, but I feel its design is getting old. Recent records of it in operation is damaging. SAF doesnt have to look far, it just have to look at RMAF, for the losses of its hawk's. And the more recent problems with indian pruchase can happen again, which is probably why they removed it. PLus there is the newer designed trainers like the Yak 130 which is looking very attractive.

[oldsoak]

If the RSAF had taken a look at RAAF experience with the Hawk ( after all, they train in Oz ) they might have found that the RAAF are quite happy with the Hawks. As are quiote a few other users. I suspect that the RSAF may want the trainer to fulfil a bit more than the training role. The Korean offering for instance has twice the thrust and supersonic - not quite an ordinary trainer, and likewise the Aermacchi has twice the thrust of the Hawk. Considering the RSAF were previously flying the S211, this a huge jump in capability.

[Super Nimrod]

Have BAE announced any plans for another trainer to replace the Hawk ?

[Sea Toby]

I like the South Korean T-50 so much, if the Kiwis wished to get back into the air combat business, the T-50 would be a great light fighter as well as a trainer. Unfortunately, the current government of New Zealand intends to remain out of the air combat business. This aircraft is more affordable than acquiring F-35s.

[swerve]

... The Korean offering for instance has twice the thrust and supersonic - not quite an ordinary trainer, and likewise the Aermacchi has twice the thrust of the Hawk. Considering the RSAF were previously flying the S211, this a huge jump in capability.

Naah - the comparison is really with their A-4 trainers. Retired as trainers a couple of years ago, but an air force the size of Singapores can afford to have a hiatus. Trainee pilots can use the aircraft of friendly air forces, multinational training centres, etc., temporarily.

[just.sentinel]

Yep, Singapore uses 16 converted T/A-4 Skyhawks for its advanced training. These are based out of Friance.

The 211s, I believe, are used for the Basic Wings programme and being replaced with the PC-21s.

[Alpha Epsilon]

I don't think Hawk is at the end. The line should be active with current orders until 2010 in the UK and about 2011-2012 in India. The Indians are very likely to order another 57 which should prolong the Indian line to 2014 or so.

The UK line could easily be extended if the Saudis order aircraft as expected. There are other opportunities and also lots of upgrade work to be done for current users.

[Tebuan]

Sorry, I've might have worded it improperly. I know that the hawk's are a famous trainers widely exported, and I do like its design, but I feel its design is getting old. Recent records of it in operation is damaging. SAF doesnt have to look far, it just have to look at RMAF, for the losses of its hawk's. And the more recent problems with indian pruchase can happen again, which is probably why they removed it. PLus there is the newer designed trainers like the Yak 130 which is looking very attractive.

RMAF can hardly be cited as a good example of user to take cue from. Their record with Hawks is bad from day one, including low serviceability rates initially. But not all of RMAF Hawks are the garden variety trainers, I think 18/28 were Hawk Mk208s with combat capability. Based on reports of numerous crashes, I suspect Indonesian Air Force has dismal record with Hawks also. Wonder whether tropical operating conditions play a part in serviceability. Elsewhere (eg. NFTC, Finland, Switzerland, UK, Korea(?), Australia etc) they seem to be thriving.
Maybe RSAF criteria was also looking at the longevity of the production line to support long term usage on spares etc. They take long term view on any purchase.