India's P-17 (stealthy multi-role surface combatant)

[Su_37]

Future Commissions: Shivalik; Laid Down - 11 July 2001, Launched - 18 April 2003, Commissioning - 2005.

..Sahyadri; Laid Down - Commissioning - 2006/07.
..Satpura; Laid Down - Commissioning - 2007/08.

Displacement: 4900 tons.

Dimensions: Length - 143 metres.
.................Beam - 16.9 metres.
.................Draught - 4.5 metres.
.................Moulded Depth - 9.2 metres.

Maximum Speed: 32 knots for GT operations( Combat Mode
). Maximum cruising speed of 22 knots on diesels.

Complement: 250 (incl. 25 officers)

The Project 17 (P17) standard frigate will be the Indian Navy's (IN) new stealthy multi-role surface combatant for the 21st century. The program calls for 12 units. Cabinet approval for this project was given in 1997,

Construction of the first P17 frigate commenced with plate cutting on 18 December 2000, the keel laid on 11 July 2001 and the launch on 18 April 2003. The other two units will then be delivered at 18 month intervals and subsequent units - twelve planned in all - will likely be built in progressively modified batches

Christened as the 'new' Nilgiri Class frigate, the P17 is an enlarged and modified version of the Russian P1135.6 Talwar {Krivak III} Class frigates. It was jointly designed by the NDB and Russia's Severnoye Project Design Bureau (Severnoye Proyektno-Konstruktorskoye Bjuro - SPKB), the designers of the P1135.6 frigate. SPKB has been a consulting partner to the IN for quite some time now and its design influence is clearly seen in the Type 15 Delhi Class destroyers and Type 25/25A Khukri / Kora Class corvettes. More recently, France's DCN International (DCNI) has been involved in this project as a consultant undertaking signature management studies amongst other things. CAE of Canada will act as the overall platform functional integrator, which is landmark since this is the first time a Western company has been put in charge of a vital IN project.

In appearance and layout, the P17 is very similar to the Talwar Class frigate although the aft end is more like the Delhi Class destroyer. It is possible that the superstructure may yet be altered to resemble the Lafayette design depending upon DCNI's input. The P17 is approximately 143 meters long with a beam of 17 meters, a standard displacement of 4600 tons (5000+ tons full load) and a maximum speed of 30 knots. With respect to the P1135.6 design, the P17 is about 17 metres longer, 2 metres wider and displaces about a thousand tons more. Other important differences are in the propulsion system (CODOG vs. COGOG), number of embarked helicopters (two vs. one) and in the weapons and sensor suite. The ship will feature modular construction techniques using around 172 modules. This should, in theory, speed up the pace of construction considerably. The vessel's complement is estimated to number 257 (including 35 officers), which is a considerable improvement over present IN surface combatants of similar tonnage and results from the use of increased automation of many shipboard equipment and systems.

[Snakecharmer]

man those indians are busy little bees

[gf0012-aust]

Its the french who are being busy. They are working on Indian ASW vessels and then pakistans subs and acoustic detection systems.

I may be from the "old school", but that seems to me to be a conflict of interest.

[Oqaab]

12 P-17 and 3 Talwar will make 15 stealth warships. I hope F-22p has some stealth systems to counter these.

[Su_37]

Its the french who are being busy. They are working on Indian ASW vessels and then pakistans subs and acoustic detection systems.

I may be from the "old school", but that seems to me to be a conflict of interest.

Well.. this sound intresting ...... but one thing .....

- If India going to buy 150 - 200 number of Mirage 2000-5 Planes , then I don;t think friench is going to seel nay of these

platform to Pak.

- French is supplying Scropio Subs to India.

French promised to India that no majoy wepon system will be seel to pak without consulting to India , including Rafal plane.

If you remember in the battel which ever have the close deplomitic relations will win , In the UK - Argentine War , French

supplyed Uk the defelection code for its Exocet Anti ship missile , which it has supplyed to Argentina.

Uk mounted the diplomatic pressure on French when the 2 of these missile destroyed Uk ships.

Arginatina, uses these missile agaist UK effectively , They fitted Exocet missile on plane , then these plane fly on low allitute avoiding radar detection, and then fire thse antiships missiles , Uk ships don;t even get the time to figure it out what happened to them.

So , Well this might be posssibilities that France and India reach an Understanding that Franch will provide Signature of Pak subs, in order to get lucretive Indian Contract worth of 3 billions and also future contact.

It is worth of Noticing that French Scropian Subs will have the capability to install nuclear reacter in it.

May be Wrong, But everything is fairExocet in Love and War. Classic Trick , get with the power of money.

[gf0012-aust]

In the military research environment, and especially within the Euro community, the French military manufacturing are typically referred to as the "whores of europe".

As nasty, unattractive and unfair as that may be, it refers to their willingness to sell to anyone if the price is right.

Certainly my own personal experience would reinforce that. I deal with a French company that deals with India and Pakistan at the same time now - and they have no intention of abandoning either customer whilst they can generate revenue.

[dabrownguy]

Actaully if you count the PROJECT 15A BANGALORE CLASS than its a lot more stealth ships. ANd also the PROJECT 17 NILGIRI CLASS. I think these are to counter balance chinas or they just felt like spending money. whos knows. Any ways there also working on PROJECT 28 CLASS to get rid of nasty subrimes that may comenear the indian cost.

[dabrownguy]

I aslo for got to mention the PROJECT 75 we are to get 24 or more for brownwater combat in the indian cost. there kinda like the scorpenes.

[Oqaab]

French promised to India that no majoy wepon system will be seel to pak without consulting to India , including Rafal plane.

Can u post a link for that ??? Or these are just rumours ???

[gf0012-aust]

I aslo for got to mention the PROJECT 75 we are to get 24 or more for brownwater combat in the indian cost. there kinda like the scorpenes.


What are like the scorpenes??

[elkaboingo]

i suppose they must be subs of a kind. :?

[gf0012-aust]

i suppose they must be subs of a kind. :?

I'm confused, I thought he was talking about surface vessels. You don't use subs for brown water ops - unless they are micro midget subs and the water is very deep and very dirty... ;)

[elkaboingo]

yeah, but above he mentions buying french scorpene subs. :? i think theyre midget subs for SF's

[shamsi]

Its the french who are being busy. They are working on Indian ASW vessels and then pakistans subs and acoustic detection systems.

I may be from the "old school", but that seems to me to be a conflict of interest.

Don't they say something about French, money, mothers and trade?

[darklegent]

Thats odd we all (Europe, Middle east, India, Pakistan, China) curse the French and yet buy their hardware. Smart Traders ....lol ;)

[gf0012-aust]

Thats odd we all (Europe, Middle east, India, Pakistan, China) curse the French and yet buy their hardware. Smart Traders ....lol ;)

They make very good kit. No question about it. eg, they are probably the current world leaders in ramjet technology.

There's never been much of an issue that they can't build quality gear.

[tatra]

Model of INS Shivalik (P17 class)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/shivalik/shivalik-model-1.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/shivalik/shivalik-model-2.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/shivalik/shivalik-model-3.jpg

[gf0012-aust]

That looks decidedly french in its design.

[shamsi]

That looks decidedly french in its design.

They might as well put a plate for frog legs right next to it...

[gf0012-aust]

One of the things that I like about US, French, Russian (and now Chinese and Indian) older naval vessels is that classic clipper line.

This must be the first Indian surface combatant that hasn't continued with that Soviet mentality of placing missile cannisters in every available deck spot - they were so ugly (and probably top heavy)

Warships like the New Jersey, Dunkerque, Sverdlov, to some extent the Arleigh Burkes all have that gracefull long bow design.

[saraab]

French promised to India that no majoy wepon system will be seel to pak without consulting to India , including Rafal plane.


well, i have a news clip of the time the 90B contract was signed , the frecnh said the same thing to pakistan about the 90Bs :D :D2

nice traders they sure are

[mukul]

That looks decidedly french in its design.

But sorry to say it wrong ,... actually it is based on the russian friget design. i would like say a it somehow similer to talwar class of russian made. almost all the things in design are same as in INS Talwar.

[gf0012-aust]

Superficially it may look so, but the superstructure amidships is definitely not a Krivak.

The front quarter section at first glance looks like a Krivak as well, but it is not.

The comms layout is also more french than russian in design.

The new vessels are also some 20% larger. Its very difficult to extrapolate and upscale a warship. To try and upscale a Krivak (which is quite a well balanced design) would give a naval architect a few headaches.

Indian warship desiign is actually a combination of English, Russian and French philosophies - they are 3 distinct architectural philosophies. Prev warships were heavily modelled on the heavy loadout philosophy of the Soviets, they tried to apply a similar concept to their modified Leanders and ended up with vessels that were unstable and unbalanced in aggressive sea states,

In my view, this design has distinct french influences - it may have a superficial resemblance to a Krivak, but I strongly doubt that its the prime influence.

(look at the superstructure, mid section hull, comms layout)

[tatra]

Well, the general layout bridge and forward is almost the same as on the Talwar class. The smaller caliber gun is used and the SAM launcher has been elevated, leaving more space below decks. There is a VLu for Club-N. The number of RBU-6000 has been doubles.

Further after, the torpedoe tubes have been moved forward to about midship. Radar (Top Plate) and fire control equipment (4x Orekh, 1x 5P10) are generally comparable, it located in different spots. The rear end is similar to the layout of Delhi and Godavarie class with twin instead of single hgelicopter hangars. Compared to Talwar, the 2 Kashtan's have been move forward and up a bit. The domed search radar nomally associate with Kashtan has been deleted. Instead there is a large 3D radar to augment Top Plate at long ranges.

I suspect most important differences to Talwar are below decks, in propulsion and combat system areas. More stealthy, more capable. Nice looking vessel!

[gf0012-aust]

It's a well balanced design. And you're right, I'd be curious to see what its like underneath.

The design is certainly better than prev generations. The older russian designs tended to go for max weaps on a given footprint - and that made for some really ungainly designs and I would guess a somewhat suspect seastate handling ability.

Its interesting when you compare this with the latest chinese stealth frigs.

[tatra]

As is, when operational, I would rate the Project 17 as superior to the new chinese Type 054 frigate and an equal to the Type 052B destroyer (P17 has greater ASW emphasis, one more helicopter, less medium range but greater short range SAM capability, fewer but more deadly SSM, smaller caliber but more rapidly firing main gun)

A future P17 might mount 3 Sylver 8-cell VLu's with Aster 15 and 2-3 Russian 8-cell VLu's for members of the KLub-N family or for Brahmos SSM/LACM. Thus equipped, and with the Aster associated multifunction radar, the P17 would in my view be similar in design to the projected Type 054A and possibly outclass it in performance.

Such a modified P17 would outclass the current Type 052B but not the 052C AAW destroyer. For that, the P17 would need to be equipped with 5 8-cell Sylver Vlu's with long range Aster-30 and associated multifunction radars, as well as 1 8-cell Russian VLu with SSM of the Klub-N family or Brahmos.

[gf0012-aust]

As is, when operational, I would rate the Project 17 as superior to the new chinese Type 054 frigate and an equal to the Type 052B destroyer (P17 has greater ASW emphasis, one more helicopter, less medium range but greater short range SAM capability, fewer but more deadly SSM, smaller caliber but more rapidly firing main gun)

A future P17 might mount 3 Sylver 8-cell VLu's with Aster 15 and 2-3 Russian 8-cell VLu's for members of the KLub-N family or for Brahmos SSM/LACM. Thus equipped, and with the Aster associated multifunction radar, the P17 would in my view be similar in design to the projected Type 054A and possibly outclass it in performance.

Such a modified P17 would outclass the current Type 052B but not the 052C AAW destroyer. For that, the P17 would need to be equipped with 5 8-cell Sylver Vlu's with long range Aster-30 and associated multifunction radars, as well as 1 8-cell Russian VLu with SSM of the Klub-N family or Brahmos.

to make it 052c competitive you then have to make platform decisions - there is an issue of "real estate" and weapons bunkerage to consider.

If the tasking disconnect is too "great" then you end up with platform inconsistencies.

The melding of russian, french and indian EW/COMINT/SIGINT/FCS systems could be a porting/programming nightmare.

[shamsi]

As is, when operational, I would rate the Project 17 as superior to the new chinese Type 054 frigate and an equal to the Type 052B destroyer (P17 has greater ASW emphasis, one more helicopter, less medium range but greater short range SAM capability, fewer but more deadly SSM, smaller caliber but more rapidly firing main gun)

A future P17 might mount 3 Sylver 8-cell VLu's with Aster 15 and 2-3 Russian 8-cell VLu's for members of the KLub-N family or for Brahmos SSM/LACM. Thus equipped, and with the Aster associated multifunction radar, the P17 would in my view be similar in design to the projected Type 054A and possibly outclass it in performance.

Such a modified P17 would outclass the current Type 052B but not the 052C AAW destroyer. For that, the P17 would need to be equipped with 5 8-cell Sylver Vlu's with long range Aster-30 and associated multifunction radars, as well as 1 8-cell Russian VLu with SSM of the Klub-N family or Brahmos.

to make it 052c competitive you then have to make platform decisions - there is an issue of "real estate" and weapons bunkerage to consider.

If the tasking disconnect is too "great" then you end up with platform inconsistencies.

The melding of russian, french and indian EW/COMINT/SIGINT/FCS systems could be a porting/programming nightmare.

Some comments by the patrons of this forum are driven by patriotism, rather than science. This class out classes that class...
IN's approach to buy diversity of paltforms from suppliers of opportunity look great in Janes, but I am quite aware of their integration nightmares, so I second you gary. Great opportunities for consultancy ;)

[tatra]

I have attempted to provide as objective an assessment as I can with what I know. Let me assure you patriotism was not a factor. If it had been, I would have compared the vessels of IN and PLAN with vessels of yet other navies.

[gf0012-aust]

I have attempted to provide as objective an assessment as I can with what I know. Let me assure you patriotism was not a factor. If it had been, I would have compared the vessels of IN and PLAN with vessels of yet other navies.

Tatra, the patriotic references were not levelled at you. I actually commend you on a considered series of balanced responses.

The discussions that have transpired are on generalities. Integrating disparate systems is a nightmare - and when you integrate indigenous, french, russian and israeli systems as part of a joint solution - it will be a headache.

Nobody has said its impossible - it just obviously not easy. If offence was taken it was very unintended.

[mukul]

INS Talwar, commanded by Captain Satish Soni, will berth at Potsmouth

INS Talwar has an extensive suite of Indian and Russian sensors, including the indigenous HUMSA sonar and communication suite CCS Mk-II made by Bharat Electronics. The ship will operate the state-of-the-art KA-31 helicopters for airborne early warning.

The ship's weapon suite includes vertically launched long-range surface-to-surface missiles (CLUB-N), 100 mm gun (A 190), long-range

Surface-to-air missiles (SHTIL), advanced torpedo launchers (DTA 53), anti-submarine rocket launchers (RBU 6000) and anti-missile defence system (KASHTAN), amongst others.

Its main features are high weapon sensor density, enhanced stealth features and extended reach.


Well ... this is the frist ship which is desigened with Indian specifications.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/02navy.htm

Somewhere i read that , this is was delayed due to purpose as sited reason due to failure of SAM , but real intension is enhance its ASW to counter Pak subs. Now it can detect and target Subs even before it comeinto its missiles or tarpedoes range.

[tatra]

Anyone have any images of INS Shivalik AFTER she was launched?

[tatra]

By that I mean, images of Shivalik in a more advanced stage of building that this:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/Temp/shivalik/stb-1.jpg

[gf0012-aust]

Tatra, well, thats a good example of "low observability" :D

[tatra]

Tatra, well, thats a good example of "low observability" :D

Yeah, it's amazing that you can't see most of the superstructure. Wonder how they do that. Probably LO paint scheme and a bunch of lamps. :roll

But seriously, that image dates to mid-way last year so Shivalik should have progressed considerably since then.

I would also be thankful for any images showing the Israeli Barak missile installation and its associated ELTA firecontrol radar installed on INS Delhi. Still trying to figure out how many VLU's (single or twin) and rounds were fitted (if twin: 2x6 or 2x8), in what configuration (read something about a rotary launcher) and where on the ship (in lieu of AK630 or not).