What does a country need to make Nukes?

[Zechariah]

If you already have nuclear reactors how far off is actual weapons technology? Is it possible to have nuclear reactors that can never make weapons grade plutonium?

Even if you have the plutonium is anything else that's hard to obtain needed?

[Khairul Alam]

If you already have nuclear reactors how far off is actual weapons technology? Is it possible to have nuclear reactors that can never make weapons grade plutonium?

Even if you have the plutonium is anything else that's hard to obtain needed?

having nuclear reactors alone wont be sufficient for a country pursuing nuclear weapons. let me explain in layman terms:
the most important component of a nuclear weapon is the fissile (radioactive) material (lets not bring in the hydrogen bomb for the time being, that being dependent on nuclear fusion). now, traditionally two radioactive elements, Uranium-235 and Plutonium have been used. nuclear reactors would help if a country wants to build Plutonium bombs. Now, all nuclear reactors do not produce plutonium. Special heavy water reactors are used to obtain plutonium. So, if u want a uranium bomb instead, u dont need a nuclear reactor to obtain the uranium-235. However, there have been reports that nuclear bombs can also be built out of nuclear waste from reactors. So, having a nuclear reactor is a good option, but not the only option.

[Zechariah]

Khairul Alam, thanks, that helps. But what stops every country with Uranium from making atomic weapaons? Is it only international pressure, or is there some scientific component?

[Khairul Alam]

If you already have nuclear reactors how far off is actual weapons technology? Is it possible to have nuclear reactors that can never make weapons grade plutonium?

Even if you have the plutonium is anything else that's hard to obtain needed?

sorry, missed out your last question. well, even if u have tonnes of plutonium, u can go nowhere without a working detonation system (that will actually cause your precious bomb to go off where u want it to). but designs are not hard to obtain (a great deal of designs circulate in the black market). Depending on ur design, u might also need special high-explosives, but i thing developing them isnt very hard for countries.

[Khairul Alam]

Khairul Alam, thanks, that helps. But what stops every country with Uranium from making atomic weapaons? Is it only international pressure, or is there some scientific component?

Did u mean countries with Uranium-235?? You see uranium-235 is really difficult to obtain. Normally, the uranium that is extracted from the earth contains only 0.3% uranium-235. the rest is uranium-238, which cant be used to builb bombs. The technology needed to extract is sophisticated and only a handful of nations can muster it. There are different ways you can extract uranium-235, using diffusion technique, or centrifuge, or even lasers, and all of them are sophisticated.

[Zechariah]

Ok got it. Basically to answer my own question, the enrichment process is the hardest part; After that the detonation system.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Enriched uranium alone is useless.

All in all, There are 19 basic steps to produce a nuclear bomb based off enrichment.

First, uranium is enriched through centrifuges upto 90%. After enrichment, uranium has to be converted into metal, then the different high technologies needed for the bomb program have to be developed, like bomb design, trigger mechanism, neutron source, high speed electronics and computers, diagnostic and testing capabilities, ultra high precision chemical and mechancial components for the bomb. Obtaining 50 simlutaneous detonations in the explosive lenses and then producing a high neutron flux in the bomb at the precise moment when the critical mass is obtained, (a very high technological task).

So as you may have realised, it is not easy to produce a nuclear bomb. Even the Indians after being dead ended in their program illegally bought nuclear equipment from the AQ Khan network to achieve a breakthrough in their program. :p:

I hope I answered your question well.

[militaryman3121]

really every thing is hard to obtain, find a perioidc table you know all the elements? have a look at the last couple the man made ones i think there is some there that are ingrediants in that, extreamly expensive to make nukes.

[Zechariah]

good stuff thanks!

[Dr Freud]

Even the Indians after being dead ended in their program illegally bought nuclear equipment from the AQ Khan network to achieve a breakthrough in their program.
Who/What is AQ Khan network ?

[nevidimka]

LOL, thats funny, India geting its nuclear tehnology from AQ khan. India had nuclear technology to build the bombs even in the 70's, to say that they got it from AQ Khan network is laughable, also not possible as AQ Khan wouldnt have sold anything related to that to India.

[Aliph Ahmed]

LOL, thats funny, India geting its nuclear tehnology from AQ khan. India had nuclear technology to build the bombs even in the 70's, to say that they got it from AQ Khan network is laughable, also not possible as AQ Khan wouldnt have sold anything related to that to India.

Only if you have had read the post attentively and sensibly. I was talking about a Centrifuge technology and not the reactor based technology that India experimented with by cheating and lieing to the Canadians by breaking the contract terms to use a civilain reactor CANDU for military purposes and was punished by Canada who ended all engagements.

As for the centrifuge technology, David Albright, who was a UN weapons inspector in Iraq, issued a study blasting India's nuclear procurement practices and trashing India's export control laws and mechanisms. A key allegation in that paper was that state-owned Indian nuclear entities have procured material from elements of the network led by Pakistani proliferator Abdul Qadeer Khan and therefore, were able to achieve a breaktrhough in 1997-2003 period !

These are the things you wont get to read on Indian forums. Too much " everything is good and perfect ".

[kams]

LOL, thats funny, India geting its nuclear tehnology from AQ khan. India had nuclear technology to build the bombs even in the 70's, to say that they got it from AQ Khan network is laughable, also not possible as AQ Khan wouldnt have sold anything related to that to India.

He is a troll, forget it. He has to drag India in to every topic. It's another matter that Indian weapon program is plutonium based not Uranium based. If you want to know about real Nuclear smuggling, read Adrian Levy and catherine Scott-Clark's book. - Deception.

[Aliph Ahmed]

He is a troll, forget it. He has to drag India in to every topic. It's another matter that Indian weapon program is plutonium based not Uranium based. If you want to know about real Nuclear smuggling, read Adrian Levy and catherine Scott-Clark's book. - Deception.

Are you going to dispute what I said ?

Did India not cheated and lied to the Canadians and used Candu reactors (meant for civilian purpose) for military purpose ?

Do India not have an enrichment program despite reactor program being the primary ?

Did India not get punished by Canada where Canada broke all contacts with the Indians when they learnt that India cheated and lied to them?

David Albright's report is wrong? (You cant just pick one report as right and another as wrong) depending on your interests. Whatever.

[kams]

Are you going to dispute what I said ?

Did India not cheated and lied to the Canadians and used Candu reactors (meant for civilian purpose) for military purpose ?

Do India not have an enrichment program despite reactor program being the primary ?

Did India not get punished by Canada where Canada broke all contacts with the Indians when they learnt that India cheated and lied to them?

David Albright's report is wrong? (You cant just pick one report as right and another as wrong) depending on your interests. Whatever.

You are 400% right. (Isn't that the favoured expression?). Check out the definition of Troll.

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

What you had posted had nothing to do with the topic and the question raised by Zechariah.

Have a great Day/Night.

[Dr Freud]

Aliph Ahmeds technical explanation is good enuff.
But his political deception wasnt good enuff.
Indias first nuclear test was on May 18, 1974 at Pokhran. (smiling buddha).

By this time, A.Q Khan just started to get access to Netherlands nuclear technology.
A.Q Khan then started to steal Netherlands nuclear technology in collaboration with Pakistan, it is not clear if Pakistan sent him to spy or if A.Q. Khan initiated it himself, in order to get the technology into the hands of Pakistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadeer_Khan
Aliph Ahmed: politics in not your area of expertise, you should stick to physics, no pun intended. physics is also held in a higher regard then politics.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Aliph Ahmeds technical explanation is good enuff.
But his political deception wasnt good enuff.
Indias first nuclear test was on May 18, 1974 at Pokhran. (smiling buddha).

By this time, A.Q Khan just started to get access to Netherlands nuclear technology.
A.Q Khan then started to steal Netherlands nuclear technology in collaboration with Pakistan, it is not clear if Pakistan sent him to spy or if A.Q. Khan initiated it himself, in order to get the technology into the hands of Pakistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadeer_Khan
Aliph Ahmed: politics in not your area of expertise, you should stick to physics, no pun intended. physics is also held in a higher regard then politics.

You are getting confused between two different nuclear programs of India. One is a nuclear based plutonium route program and it is the primary program. Secondary program is Centrifuge enrichement based U235 route and is secondary. I am talking about the latter and you are talking about the former. India has both programs.

Smiling Budha in 1974 at Pokhran was experiment by India through stealing, cheating, lieing and misrepresenting to the Canadians by illegally and against the written and signed agreement with the Canadians to use the CANDU reactor for civilian purpose only and not for military purposes !!

Indians should not feel bad about illegally buying from AQ Khan netwrok to achieve breakthrough as Enriching Uranium itself is not an easy part.

Uranium has to be explored first. Then it has to be mined. 10,000 tons of uranium has to be mined for one bomb alone! Then the mined uranium has to be refined into yellow cake. This is then converted through a long chain of chemical processes into uranium tetrafluoride and then into high purity uranium hexafluoride gas (UF6). It is this UF6 which is the feedstock for uranium enrichment. UF6 is the chemical form in which uranium has to be coverted so that it is passed through the centrifuges and when the centrifuges spin at great speeds, U-235 is separated from U-238.

Production of UF6 and mastering these processes requires the complete understanding and application of nuclear chemistry. It involves production of highly corrosive hydrfluoric acid, flourine gas which is very toxic and corrosive. The UF6 then has to be of very high purity because if it contains any impurities, they can destroy the centrifuges. And it has to be produced by the ton.

This route is a lot different and complicated from obtaining the plutonium route which India primiarily follows. Will tell you about it later once you are able to digest the fact that Indians illegally procured stuff from AQ Khan network based on which they were able to achieve a breakthrough in their centrifuge program. :)

[kams]

LEARNING THE A-B-C OF URANIUM ENRICHMENT (http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=24874)

In nuclear jargon, the phrase uranium enrichment sets off sparks. Uranium enrichment means separation of the minuscule fissile isotope U235 , a process if taken to 90 per cent, gives the explosive core for atomic bombs. “Uranium enrichment” of a lower order is no less valuable. For, uranium enriched even to five or six per cent provides the fuel for advanced light water reactors for nuclear power generation.

Uranium enrichment technology has therefore been a closely guarded secret. Secondly, nuclear heavy weights have been engaged in an intense race for the most advanced – technologically and cost-wise – enrichment process. On both counts, uranium enrichment has been out of the reach of most nations, being a top-end technology as well as prohibitive in terms of cost. But nuclear technology heavy weights have been engaged in an intense innovative effort to find cheaper and technologically better processes since the fifties of the last century.

The first enrichment process deployed by the big powers was the diffusion method – so enormously costly that Dr Bhabha ruled it out for India. But the weapon powers, including China, a late entrant, threw all their resources and money power to build atomic bombs at any cost, using the diffusion method.



Break-Through

In the sixties and seventies, 2006, a break-through came by developing the gas centrifuge process. Although cheaper and more advanced than the diffusion process, it was still very costly, and equipment and materials used for centrifugal enrichment were tough to obtain. Thousands of centrifuges and ultra-pure stainless steel – marraging steel -- for the equipment put the process out of the reach of most nations.

The big three – USA, Russia, and France – alone built centrifuge plants on their own, while Britain, Germany and Holland pooled their resources to jointly build the Almelo centrifuge plant in Holland. It is from this centrifuge plant that Dr Qadir Khan – a nuclear metallurgist who worked at the Almelo centrifuge plant – stole the blue prints of the centrifuge plant and was able to obtain, through clandestine means, centrifuge equipment and special steel for Kahuta in Pakistan.

For more than two decades, advanced nuclear technology has been in the race for better and cheaper enrichment technology. This process is the laser technology for uranium enrichment, theoretically far more advanced in terms of recurring costs and as a front-end technology, than the centrifuge process. Besides the nuclear big powers, several other nations have been in this race – among them Australia, South Africa and China. Indian scientists have also been experimenting with the laser enrichment technology. But laser technology for uranium enrichment has remained at the laboratory stage. Its commercial development has not materialized.

Now, however, a break-through appears to be at hand as a result of collaboration of two nuclear heavy-weights, the American nuclear giant, General Electric Energy, and Silex Systems of Australia, a laser technology developer. After sustained research and development by Silex systems, with GE support, the two have joined hands to build a commercially viable laser enrichment plant.

On May 4, 2006,GE and Silex Systems signed an agreement to develop uranium enrichment process by deploying laser technology subject to clearance of this project by the American government.


SILEX System

The American government’s approval has now been received for development, in the USA, of the SILEX uranium enrichment process using laser technology. This approval clears the way for construction of a test loop – technology demonstrator on an experimental level. This is to be followed by the lead cascade – a prototype of a commercial scale plant – to operate for two to three years, with eventual commercial production within the framework of the agreement signed in May last year.

GE will fund the project. GE has already paid US $ 20 million as the first of a series of agreed payments. GE will also pay a royalty to Silex on revenues from commercial production. GE stated in a communique that “commercialization of the SILEX enrichment technology is a crucial part of GE’s long-term growth strategy for the nuclear business”.

The SILEX laser guided uranium enrichment system is a leap-forward over the centrifuge process in terms of costs as well as technology and could well be a milestone in nuclear technology, making fuel for nuclear power plants over fifty per cent cheaper. Experts however noted that a sizeable area of technology development has still to be completed by Silex Systems and GE, before a full-scale facility for commercial scale enrichment can be built.


Nuclear Power Reactors

Eventually, enrichment by laser technology appears to be at hand. When realized, the new technology will put the GE well ahead in building nuclear power reactors that give a push to a world wide new phase of cheap nuclear electricity generation. This will be a momentous event in an energy starved world, making the centrifuge method a back number, just as the centrifuge method overtook the now out-dated diffusion enrichment process that prevailed till the sixties and seventies of the last century.

Will tell you about it later once you are able to digest the fact that Indians illegally procured stuff from AQ Khan network based on which they were able to achieve a breakthrough in their centrifuge program.

Oh sweet Irony! Father of Pakistan's nuclear deterrent sold the means to enrich Uranium to India, which will power the ATV and that enriched uranium is also used in the fusion bomb!. That's indeed sweet, using your own technology to screw you!:onfloorl:

[Aliph Ahmed]

LEARNING THE A-B-C OF URANIUM ENRICHMENT (http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=24874)

Oh sweet Irony! Father of Pakistan's nuclear deterrent sold the means to enrich Uranium to India, which will power the ATV and that enriched uranium is also used in the fusion bomb!. That's indeed sweet, using your own technology to screw you!:onfloorl:


You dont even know who the real father of Pakistan's deterrant is !! AQ Khan played only one part in it which is enrichment. At least get your facts right. The real father is Munir Ahmed.

No matter how much you try to twist it, the fact remains as also supported by Abright David's report that India illegally procured enrichment equipment from AQ Network based on which they were able to have a breakthrough !!

You dont have to be ashamed of it. It is not that easy process. I agree.

Edited later: Please spare me the ATV gossip. I believe it will face the same fate as of Arjun and LCA. When you get it inducted then mention it. Dont talk about anything which you dont have it inducted as of yet. I dont want to get started on them at this topic.

[kams]

You dont even know who the real father of Pakistan's deterrant is !! AQ Khan played only one part in it which is enrichment. At least get your facts right. The real father is Munir Ahmed.

No matter how much you try to twist it, the fact remains as also supported by Abright David's report that India illegally procured enrichment equipment from AQ Network based on which they were able to have a breakthrough !!

You dont have to be ashamed of it. It is not that easy process. I agree.

Edited later: Please spare me the ATV gossip. I believe it will face the same fate as of Arjun and LCA. When you get it inducted then mention it. Dont talk about anything which you dont have it inducted as of yet. I dont want to get started on them at this topic.

Oh I know all about Munir Ahmed and AQ Khans rivalry (including how both were retired and how Bomb the drawings found in Libya has AQ Khans notation saying that how his bomb will be smaller than Munir' bomb)..I have couple of books on them..very good read indeed..hilarious to say the least.



Any way have fun. All this is offtopic and my apologies to Zechariah. I am done here.

[Dr Freud]

I have been reading Abright David's report, depicting Indias shady affairs, and saw what Aliph Ahmed is refering to:

In at least one case, India procured through individuals who also played key roles in the illicet nuclear trading network led by pakistani A.Q. Khan
It certainly wasnt any breakthrough tho, it was one procurement among thousends....
http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/indiagrowingcapacity.pdf

This is actually a good read if you want to see the obstacles with obtaining enough HEU to make a bomb.

And here is another link depicting A.Q. Khan and Pakistans shady affairs

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Qadeer_Khan

In December 2006, the Swedish Weapons of Mass Destruction Commission (SWMDC) headed by Hans Blix, a former chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC); said in a report that Khan could not have acted alone "without the awareness of the Pakistani Government".

I have only one question: has A.Q. Khan been executed yet ?

[Generalissimo]

I have only one question: has A.Q. Khan been executed yet ?

Nope. As a national hero in Pakistan, father of the Islamic Bomb, he is merely kept under house arrest for his crimes, I don't even know how strict that is. At least he isn't proliferating anymore. That one man did more damage to international stability than Osama bin Laden and George Bush combined. :mad:

[Dr Freud]

Doesnt Netherlands and Pakistan have an extradition treaty ?

[radiosilence]

That one man did more damage to international stability than Osama bin Laden and George Bush combined. :mad:

Don't you think his(khan) suppliers/enablers did just as much or more damage than he did? Afterall they sold him the "goods".

[Dr Freud]

It was Khan that got access to Netherlands nuclear technology.

In 1972, the year he received his PhD, Khan joined the staff of the Physical Dynamics Research Laboratory (FDO) in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. FDO was a subcontractor for URENCO, the uranium enrichment facility at Almelo in the Netherlands,...

The technical details of these centrifuge systems are regulated as secret information by export controls because they could be used for the purposes of nuclear proliferation. These technical details along with blue prints of centrifuge were clandestinely 'taken' by A Q Khan and were used later to develop his own nuclear black market..

His network was only for smuggling it to Pakistan.
Kind of reminds me of Rosenberg.

The real catch is that Netherlands knew he was stealing, and USA told them not to take him down, they wanted to track his network.

Guess they regret that now that he sold the goods to N. Korea and Iran :rolleyes:

[Aliph Ahmed]

The real catch is that Netherlands knew he was stealing, and USA told them not to take him down, they wanted to track his network.

Guess they regret that now that he sold the goods to N. Korea and Iran :rolleyes:

I wonder where you get your base less and ill informed news from. AQ Khan didnt have a network of his at the time he was working for Urenco.

Did India execute anyone who participated in procuring the nuclear equipment illegally from global black market ? or it is all " indeginious " theme to mislead the public again ? It wouldnt be hard. Afterall, practice makes it perfect. :p:

[Dr Freud]

heh, i give you one for the " indeginious ";)

[gvg]

I wonder where you get your base less and ill informed news from. AQ Khan didnt have a network of his at the time he was working for Urenco.

Did India execute anyone who participated in procuring the nuclear equipment illegally from global black market ? or it is all " indeginious " theme to mislead the public again ? It wouldnt be hard. Afterall, practice makes it perfect. :p:

But dr Freud's first part is correct. At least to a former PM of the Netherlands. Dutch intelligence knew what Khan was doing, yet the CIA intervened when they planned his arrest. They asked not to arrest him and they would follow Khan, because they wanted to know what he was going to do.
Some years later they did start a legal case against Khan in the Netherlands, but the verdict was overturned because of a technicality. Those legal files about it are now missing, with all evidence pointing to the CIA.
According to the former PM the Cold War played a huge role in all decisions made. India was seen by the US as a partner of the USSR and they were an atomic power. According to the PM (in hindsight) it is not unthinkable that the US wanted leverage in the region against India.
And for the Dutch...after the CIA had told them they would take care of Khan, they decided that the USSR was a bigger threat to them than some country in Asia.

[indian bull]

If you already have nuclear reactors how far off is actual weapons technology? Is it possible to have nuclear reactors that can never make weapons grade plutonium?

Even if you have the plutonium is anything else that's hard to obtain needed?

Here are some designs if you wanna make a bibg bomb for u:

[SABRE]

The entire thread is a political mess. Closing it down.