Egypt: $889M Request for 125 M1A1 Tanks

[ROCK45]

Egypt: $889M Request for 125 M1A1 Tanks
February 4th, 2008

Related Stories: Americas - USA, Contracts - Intent, General Dynamics, Middle East - Other, Other Corporation, Tanks & Mechanized
LAND_M1A1_High_Gear.jpg
American M1A1
(click to view full)

In the modern era, Egypt was a Soviet client for a long time, and its arsenals still contain their share of Soviet weaponry. Military assistance relations took a sharp turn for the worse in the early 1970s, and the country has used the US military aid program that accompanied the 1979 Camp David Accords to replace much of that equipment with American items. The country began a co-production program for M1 Abrams tanks in 1988, which involves kit assembly in Egypt but outsources sensitive functions like adding the M1’s special armor. To date, this program has produced 880 tanks, a total that would rise to 1,005 M1 tanks with this order.

On Aug 24/07, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announced [PDF format] Egypt’s request for 125 M1A1 Abrams tank kits…

Full story
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/

[eckherl]

Egypt: $889M Request for 125 M1A1 Tanks
February 4th, 2008

Related Stories: Americas - USA, Contracts - Intent, General Dynamics, Middle East - Other, Other Corporation, Tanks & Mechanized
LAND_M1A1_High_Gear.jpg
American M1A1
(click to view full)

In the modern era, Egypt was a Soviet client for a long time, and its arsenals still contain their share of Soviet weaponry. Military assistance relations took a sharp turn for the worse in the early 1970s, and the country has used the US military aid program that accompanied the 1979 Camp David Accords to replace much of that equipment with American items. The country began a co-production program for M1 Abrams tanks in 1988, which involves kit assembly in Egypt but outsources sensitive functions like adding the M1’s special armor. To date, this program has produced 880 tanks, a total that would rise to 1,005 M1 tanks with this order.

On Aug 24/07, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announced [PDF format] Egypt’s request for 125 M1A1 Abrams tank kits…

Full story
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/

I told some of you so, as I stated on the Saudi considers T-95 thread.;) Also like to state that current Egyptian M1A1s use a M256 gun.

[eaf-f16]

I told some of you so, as I stated on the Saudi considers T-95 thread.;) Also like to state that current Egyptian M1A1s use a M256 gun.

You told me before (I think in the Saudi T-95 thread) that Egypt doesn't have DU rounds. Excuse my ignorance about this issue, but all the articles (mostly human rights websites or Israeli newspapers so I can't trust their reliability) that I looked up all said we bought some 10,000 DU rounds from the States. Did the DU round sale get canceled after it was approved or was it never approved?:confused:

Also can you tell me what components Egyptian M1A1 tanks are upgraded compared to the standard M1A1 and which are downgraded/missing? And is the M256 gun an upgrade that we got recently?

I'm sorry if I have overwhelmed you with questions but I'm novice about tanks and infantry.:D

[Izzy1]

(I think in the Saudi T-95 thread):D

No doubt whilst you were slagging the Saudis off.

[eaf-f16]

No doubt whilst you were slagging the Saudis off.

I never insulted the Saudis. I thought I made that pretty clear now.:rolleyes:

[eckherl]

You told me before (I think in the Saudi T-95 thread) that Egypt doesn't have DU rounds. Excuse my ignorance about this issue, but all the articles (mostly human rights websites or Israeli newspapers so I can't trust their reliability) that I looked up all said we bought some 10,000 DU rounds from the States. Did the DU round sale get canceled after it was approved or was it never approved?:confused:

Also can you tell me what components Egyptian M1A1 tanks are upgraded compared to the standard M1A1 and which are downgraded/missing? And is the M256 gun an upgrade that we got recently?

I'm sorry if I have overwhelmed you with questions but I'm novice about tanks and infantry.:D

Egypt does not have DU rounds for their M1A1`s but instead uses the KEW A1 and will most likely go with the KEW A2 the same round used by Australia, it offers darn good performance.

The M256 is not a upgrade due to Egypt always using this tube, it is the same tube that we use.

The only difference between a standard U.S M1A1 versus a standard Egyptian version is the armor package, electronics are the same.

Now with the new electronics and armor package Egypt will be getting, All I can state is that it will look like a M1A2 in appearance, (panoramic site) but will not have the land navigation package and will run with a modified platoon intergrated fire control system, better night fighting capability. The armor package is classified.

[Waylander]

Are there even any Abrams left in some storages which still have the 105mm L7?

BTW, does the TCs periscope of the Abrams have a LRF of it's own?

[eckherl]

Are there even any Abrams left in some storages which still have the 105mm L7?

BTW, does the TCs periscope of the Abrams have a LRF of it's own?

We may have a few lingering around with 105 mm still stuffed up the snout, on a M1A1 the TC uses a sight elbow and TC over ride that is slaved to the gunners primary sighting system thus using the gunners laser.

[ROCK45]

Sorry for the basic question but are tanks like fighters in the sense where you could a little more then double the purchase price and factor in that as a year's operational cost? For example say a F-16 cost $30 million (I know it's much more) it's really almost like $80/90 million to run the Viper for a year of normal 200 hours flying, training cost, maintenance, etc. Are tanks like that do they get deep overhauls etc? Thanks

[eckherl]

Sorry for the basic question but are tanks like fighters in the sense where you could a little more then double the purchase price and factor in that as a year's operational cost? For example say a F-16 cost $30 million (I know it's much more) it's really almost like $80/90 million to run the Viper for a year of normal 200 hours flying, training cost, maintenance, etc. Are tanks like that do they get deep overhauls etc? Thanks

Yes - tanks can be quite expensive to run and repair over time and they do go through routine maintence services and overhauls.

[ROCK45]

eckherl would doubling the cost of the tank be in the ball park? Thanks

[eckherl]

eckherl would doubling the cost of the tank be in the ball park? Thanks

On a annual basis no, but through out the life cycle of the vehicle then most certain.

[Waylander]

Maybe interesting to know is that even small parts of a tank are really expensive compared to more conventional vehicles.

For example at the Leopard II a roadwheel cost ca. 400€. And this is the cheap stuff but it needs to get replaced on a regular base and they often enough tend to hold not as long as they should if one does some more maneuvers.
A new track is much more expensive.
And one also needs to replace/overhaul the engine on a regular base.
Add to that the cost of thinks which get broken and which can get really expensive too like TIs, commander's periscope, optics, FCS, etc.

Oh yeah, with the current oil prices these suckers get more and more expensive.

Add to that the cost of crew training.

There are not that many jobs (fly boys, special forces and other specialized personal) in an army which are more expensive to run and to train soldiers for.

This is also one of the main problems for less rich countries. Many countries can afford at least to purchase a relatively modern tank.
But what makes it really expensive is frequent high quality training. But one needs this training even more than a really good tank.

In this case fighter forces and mechanized forces are very similar.

[ROCK45]

So a better way of spending money for country that can't afford to buy hundreds of brand new tanks might be the path Chile chose? Buying used Leo I and IIs and maybe spending more money on the training might be more cost effected.

A what if question. What if say Ecuador or Peru wanted to buy tanks and since there aren't that many countries with main battle tanks in South America would or does the US have hundreds of M-60 types in storage or Ex-US Marines models that could be bought? A country like Peru who has older T-54/55 I would assume upgrading to a ex-US Marine M-60 would be a step up better armor and FCS. Maybe not the best match up going toe to toe with a Leo II but still much better then a T-55 right? Would purchasing such a older tank be worth it overall or better to buy a little more modern the a M-60? Thanks

[eckherl]

So a better way of spending money for country that can't afford to buy hundreds of brand new tanks might be the path Chile chose? Buying used Leo I and IIs and maybe spending more money on the training might be more cost effected.

A what if question. What if say Ecuador or Peru wanted to buy tanks and since there aren't that many countries with main battle tanks in South America would or does the US have hundreds of M-60 types in storage or Ex-US Marines models that could be bought? A country like Peru who has older T-54/55 I would assume upgrading to a ex-US Marine M-60 would be a step up better armor and FCS. Maybe not the best match up going toe to toe with a Leo II but still much better then a T-55 right? Would purchasing such a older tank be worth it overall or better to buy a little more modern the a M-60? Thanks

We do not have hundreds of M-60 series left inventory,they have been either sold or donated away. There is a pretty good list of countries that would be willing to sell you a fairly modern MBT, at a good price also.

[Waylander]

It is defenitely right that a country is better protected if it has some cheaper (modern but not state of the art) tanks but invests the saved money into training and the logistical capabilities to put it's tanks into the field for a long time.

Many countries which have huge numbers of tanks are defenitely not able to put them all into the field and maintain them there.

Used Leo IIA4s are defenitely a bargain for the current price and it gives you the opportunity to upgrade them to a very modern version if you think it is needed in the future.

For a country like Peru or Ecuador I would opt for maybe some russian equipment. A modernized T-72 also gives you alot of bang for your money. Much more isn't needed in this area.

[ROCK45]

Hi Waylander

Waylander
For a country like Peru or Ecuador I would opt for maybe some russian equipment. A modernized T-72 also gives you alot of bang for your money. Much more isn't needed in this area.

After seeing so many T-72s blown up in the Gulf War I films I thought Russian tanks started getting good in the T-80 series and higher? Are T-72 light years better then T-55? Can you list a few rough prices of older and used tanks? Thanks

T-55
T-72
T-80
T-84
Chinese tanks?
Leo I
Leo II
Others

Say if they were bought in lots of 200 at once with a little upgrading maybe new ERA, engine, FCS, etc. Use Peru as an example for upgrading there armor forces. Argentina would be interesting to since there TAM tanks don't stand up against Leo IIs either. Peru might have the oldest tanks in SA isn't the T-55 from the early 60s? Chile has something like 400 plus tanks now.

[Waylander]

Hmmm, it often enough depends on the package. Most contracts include different amounts of spares, training, simulators, etc. just like when one wants to compare aircraft purchases.

Modern western MBTs are really expensive.
Greece pays 1,7 billion for their 170 Leopard 2HEL (Maybe the most modern Leo 2 version currently in service). This includes the tanks, 12 Büffel ARVs, 8 Leguan bridgelayers, 2 years of spares, sims, training, etc.

IIRC Grand Danois once told us that the Leopard IIA5DK also costed more than 8 million per tank if one breaks it down to individual numbers.

The M1A1 AIM Abrams for Australia were also in the same category but just search the Aussie threads or wait for our aussie members to give exact numbers.

Used Leopard IIA4 (But overhauled) are much cheaper. Turkey paid roughly 1,2 million per A4.

Leopard 1 are nearly thrown away for nothing and most of them are getting recycled.

Plain normal T-55s without upgrades don't cost sometimes less than a sportscar and they are sold like this in places like Africa (Without any further packages like you can imagine).
But there are some interesting upgrades available which can get really expensive if one wants the whole package. How smart it is to buy the whole high-tech package is something to discuss about... ;)

The Indian threads are full of prices for their T-90s (roughly more than 2 million IIRC) and T-72 upgrades.

And I think Chrome can give you good numbers for other T upgrades. There are nearly dozens of possible upgrades available just as the customer wants it.

Just a very rough look at current prices. ;)

[DavidDCM]

Plain normal T-55s without upgrades don't cost sometimes less than a sportscar and they are sold like this in places like Africa (Without any further packages like you can imagine).
But there are some interesting upgrades available which can get really expensive if one wants the whole package. How smart it is to buy the whole high-tech package is something to discuss about... ;)



Hmm, do you think that it is even possible to upgrade the T-55 to a level were it could be called a formidable opponent of the Leopard 2? ROCK45 mentioned the Army of Peru, they have some 300 T-55 (some old version I guess), their neighbour Chile will soon receive Leopard 2A4.
Personally I don't really think that even with a modern upgrade kit like the Slovenian M55-S1 or the Ukrainian T-55AGM the T-55 can be turned into a equal tank. Armour, armament, mobility, the old T-55 chassis is just not capable enough in my eyes.
So I guess if your potential opponent is a Leopard 2A4 or newer, like in the case of Peru, one should at least go for the T-72 und upgrade that one. Scrap the old T-55 or sell it to someone who will not face the Leopard 2.

[Waylander]

No I don't think that this is possible.

The Leopard II purchase really changed the whole situation in South America.

Before that the tanks driving around on that continent were M60s, T-55s, Leopard 1s, TAMs, etc.
Upgrading parts of your old T-55s might be a possible option.
And I would always advovate only smaller upgrades. LRF, some ERA, etc. Spending more on old T-55s is IMHO insane.

I just wanted to say that upgrading your old T-55s is ok if your opponent uses euqally old equipment.
And in the end just having some T-55s is not going to save your day as one can see these days in the Chad. For the money spend one some of these old tracks I would just buy some tons of RPGs and hand it over to my hilbilly militia.

But you are defenitely right that one needs at least T-72s if your opponent bought Leo IIA4s. Because of that I wrote this:
For a country like Peru or Ecuador I would opt for maybe some russian equipment. A modernized T-72 also gives you alot of bang for your money. Much more isn't needed in this area.
;)

[ROCK45]

Thanks guys
I really didn't think tanks cost in the $7/8 million dollar range with spares, training, and other goodies, what an investment! In theory you could have $8 million dollar kick ass tank and have poorly trained crews and still get popped by a $2 million dollar T-72. You guys who do this for real unlike myself it really rings true you fight like you train. It must be very difficult training against other well trained crews I'm sure only seconds tell them apart. I'm trying to think about if any western trained tank battles ever took place or two well trained sides. In the 73 wars I thought I Israeli's were better shots and better trained overall. Did Turkey and Greece ever have any tank battle they both seem to have modern tanks and both are NATO trained? I know there were a few air battles but were there ground battles? Can somebody tell what were the two most modern tanks that ever went against each other?

[STAB]

Mod edit:

What did this comment have to do with an Egyptian M1A2 Abrams tank acquisiton?

A few other comments are seriously off topic in the thread too. Perhaps a Peruvian armour thread could be created if someone wishes to discuss, same?

AD

[ROCK45]

Is Egypt a large user of of M1A1 Abrams tanks in general? Does anybody know who are the top six users of the Abrams, thanks

Sorry for going off topic I'll create a new Peruvian or South American armor thread as suggested.

[DavidDCM]

There are no Top Six users of them Abrams, cause the Abrams is only used by five nations at all. And Egypt is the 2nd largest of them right behind the US.

US - around 8.000
Egypt - 1.005
Saudi Arabia - 315
Kuwait - 218
Australia - 59

Source: Fas.org PDF (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/wsh2007/22.pdf)

[eckherl]

Is Egypt a large user of of M1A1 Abrams tanks in general? Does anybody know who are the top six users of the Abrams, thanks

Sorry for going off topic I'll create a new Peruvian or South American armor thread as suggested.

Egypts vision is to have in the ballpark of at least 1,200 M1A1s in their inventory which they will more than likely achieve.

For your question on modern tanks going at it please refer to our latest adventure in the sanbox, Iraq, do not forget our British comrades either.;)