Ireland to buy Javelin Anti-Tank Weapon System

[The Watcher]

For them british tanks invading it? :D

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TUCSON, Ariz. --- The Irish Department of Defence has publicly acknowledged its selection of Javelin for Ireland’s medium range anti-tank guided weapon requirement. The Irish government signed its Letter of Agreement with the U.S. government for the procurement of Javelin last year for approximately $12.5 million.

This selection marks the Raytheon/Lockheed Martin Javelin Joint Venture’s first sale to a neutral, non-aligned nation that has actively supported numerous United Nations peacekeeping operations throughout the world. To date, seven international customers have selected Javelin.

“The United States government is extremely pleased that the Irish Department of Defence selected Javelin after conducting its extensive and thorough assessment of all candidate systems,� said Col. Lloyd McDaniels, U.S. Army Close Combat Weapon Systems project manager. “The Irish Department of Defence is known for its expertise in selecting the best equipment for its forces regardless of its nation of origin. Ireland’s selection, as well as Javelin’s performance in worldwide combat operations, validates Javelin’s position as the world’s most advanced medium range anti-tank system.�

“Javelin provides the Irish Defence Forces with a highly effective means of deterrence for its soldiers in front-line peacekeeping missions,� said Michael Crisp, president, Javelin Joint Venture. “Javelin allows a single soldier to defeat all known armored vehicles and also provides pin-point accuracy against a wide variety of alternate targets. The Javelin Joint Venture is proud that Ireland judged Javelin as the best system to meets its operational requirements.�

“Ireland’s detailed evaluation process included assessments of whole life costs and worldwide supportability. Javelin’s high reliability, worldwide support and very low operational and maintenance costs were key factors in our selection,� said Howard Weaver, Javelin Joint Venture vice president. Raytheon Company provides system engineering management and support for the Javelin Joint Venture and produces the command launch unit, missile guidance electronic unit and system software. Work is performed primarily at Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, Ariz., and at other Raytheon facilities in Texas, Massachusetts and California.

Lockheed Martin provides missile engineering and production support for the Javelin Joint Venture in Orlando, Fla., produces the missile seeker in Ocala, Fla., and performs missile all-up-round assembly in Troy, Ala.

The Javelin medium-range, anti-tank missile system is the world’s first one man-transportable and employable fire-and-forget anti-armor missile system. It saw extensive use by U.S. and allied soldiers, Marines and Special Forces in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Javelin is approved for international sales through the U.S. Army’s Foreign Military Sales system and is available to meet national requirements for next-generation anti-armor weapon systems.
source (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_1113.shtml)

[Blyekh]

Do you have any images of Irish military equipment in UN services or in service or pass armor in Irish Defence force?

[Big-E]

[Admin Edit: Please STOP with useless oneliners....]

[Sea Toby]

Ireland, much like New Zealand, has been involved in too many UN peacekeeping missions lately. Currently Ireland has forces in Bosnia, Liberia, and shortly in Lebanon. They have sent UN peacekeepers to Lebanon before. While both nations of 4 million or so citizens can't afford a very large army with tank battalions, their infantry has come up against tanks in their peacekeeping roles. Having an anti-tank capability for their infantry is a must in today's peacekeeping missions, a small number of Javelins anti-tank missiles is more affordable than buying and manning a tank regiment or battalion. In fact, buying a small number of Javelins is cheaper than buying two LAVs.

What some can't comprehend any nation that don't have 10 army divisions, 10 airwings, and 10 aircraft carriers battle groups, many small nations don't even have two. While these small nations participation in UN missions isn't as hefty as the Americans, they are matching nations that have 10 to 20 times their small populations of 4 million.

[Big-E]

While BIg E cannot comprehend any nation that don't have 10 army divisions, 10 airwings, and 10 aircraft carriers battle groups,


Just answer the question, no need for editorials.

[WebMaster]

Big-E, please stop with useless one liners and other "loose" comments that take threads "off topic" and into confrontational phase. If you can't ADD anything to the topic there is no need to take anything away with irresponsible comments.

A user asked for irish military pictures, perfectly good request.

Since you are part of the "Defense professionals" group, I ask that you do keep your professional posture and professional attitude. Also, consider this your first and last warning, if I or any other mod have to give this speech again, it will be in the ban thread.

Thank you for understanding and enjoy!

[Big-E]

Thank you ST for the info of Irish deployments. I was trying to get on the IDF site and couldn't get on to find that.

My observations of javelins. It is an impressive weapon. It is an expensive weapon. Reloads for Irelands budget probably won't be an option. Looking back at the NZ deal I imagine Ireland won't be getting more than what, 20 missiles or less? With the support costs that doesn't leave many missiles. Personally I think getting 1 used advanced MBT would be a better investment. Whatever tanks the peacekeepers come across will not be quality tanks. Their javelins will be worth more than the T-34/55 target tank they come across. Getting a surplus Leopard will be more than enough to take out a whole column of enemy tanks, plus she gets reloads on the cheap!

[Aussie Digger]

Thank you ST for the info of Irish deployments. I was trying to get on the IDF site and couldn't get on to find that.

My observations of javelins. It is an impressive weapon. It is an expensive weapon. Reloads for Irelands budget probably won't be an option. Looking back at the NZ deal I imagine Ireland won't be getting more than what, 20 missiles or less? With the support costs that doesn't leave many missiles. Personally I think getting 1 used advanced MBT would be a better investment. Whatever tanks the peacekeepers come across will not be quality tanks. Their javelins will be worth more than the T-34/55 target tank they come across. Getting a surplus Leopard will be more than enough to take out a whole column of enemy tanks, plus she gets reloads on the cheap!

Sorry Big-E, I think that's a ridiculous argument. They can't afford Javelin re-loads according to you, but can afford to support a single tank and afford to buy ammunition for it???

Also a buy of 10-12 Javelin ATGW's and a quantity of missiles provides some capability for the concurrent deployments they seem to be making at the moment, as a mere 2 launchers provides an ATGW "section".

A single tank does not. In addition to which tracked armoured vehicles are tempermental things. Throw a track and your vehicle is out of action for hours and your force has lost it's solitary direct fire support capability.

Ireland's forces are also designed as a light infantry force in the main, with a Ranger battalion providing Ireland's special operations forces. A tank is not going to be very useful in supporting either their light infantry OR special forces I wouldn't imagine...

[Big-E]

Sorry Big-E, I think that's a ridiculous argument. They can't afford Javelin re-loads according to you, but can afford to support a single tank and afford to buy ammunition for it???

Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.


Also a buy of 10-12 Javelin ATGW's and a quantity of missiles provides some capability for the concurrent deployments they seem to be making at the moment, as a mere 2 launchers provides an ATGW "section".

The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.


A single tank does not. In addition to which tracked armoured vehicles are tempermental things. Throw a track and your vehicle is out of action for hours and your force has lost it's solitary direct fire support capability.


Ireland's forces are also designed as a light infantry force in the main, with a Ranger battalion providing Ireland's special operations forces. A tank is not going to be very useful in supporting either their light infantry OR special forces I wouldn't imagine...

I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.

[Aussie Digger]

Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.

The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.

I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.

You've got to think about the sorts of missions Ireland is deploying to. If they want an ATGW it's because they are sending infantry or special forces. Now a Rooikat is more easily deployable and probably more reliable, but it has less anti-armour capability than the Leopard you originally mentioned as it is only equipped with a 76mm gun.

Javelin may not be 100% accurate but neither are main guns on the Rooikat OR Leopard tanks. I never said they would only take 2 missiles, I said 2x launchers can be deployed as a minimal capability. The number of launchers would depend entirely on the size of the force being deployed. If an infantry battalion were to be deployed or a high threat level was expected, then 6x launchers would probably be deployed as most ABCA style Armies use this number to equip their anti-armour/direct fire support weapons platoons.

Either way I think the Javelin provides a lot more flexibility than a wheeled fire support vehicle or a tank for Irelands needs.

Your turn... :rolleyes:

[Big-E]

Your turn... :rolleyes:

I surrender... before I die... 120mm Rooikat :D

[Aussie Digger]

I surrender... before I die... 120mm Rooikat :D

Now you want Ireland to absorb the NRE of integrating a 120mm gun onto a single Rooikat!!! They're not made of money you know... :D

[Todjaeger]

Taking this in a slightly different direction. Isn't work being done on a "dumb" version of the Javelin where the guidance system is removed? To my understanding, there were a number of occasions when a Javelin was used to damage/destroy a hardened target but the "fire & forget" capability wasn't needed. Once the expensive guidance system is removed from the missle, it becomes much less expensive.

Ireland, by purchasing the Javelin system would then have available to it a very good ATGW system. Assuming there is work being done on a "dumb" Javelin, they would be able to use the same launchers to destroy hardened targets on deployments when needed, without spending US$70k-100k on each target.

[swerve]

Now you want Ireland to absorb the NRE of integrating a 120mm gun onto a single Rooikat!!! They're not made of money you know... :D

Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.

[swerve]

Perhaps an MBT was a bit optamistic. How about a Rooikat? It's more mobile to keep up with her wheeled vehicles, is cheaper to operate and to maintain yet has a killer main gun.

The javelin, while great, is not 100% accurate. To leave my unit depending on two missiles would not leave me feeling very confident.

I submit and offer the Rooikat for a counter proposal.

Centauro would be better. It's more likely to be operated by other members of any force. Support is available much closer to home. It has a bigger gun (105mm with 120mm already integrated as an option). And Rooikat has been out of production for years, IIRC.

[Grand Danois]

Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.
Holy !!!! I knew their GDP had exploded over the past decade, and is now twice that of say NZ, but I had no idea that they had surpassed DK in GDP/cap. 48.600 USD vs 48.000 USD is freaking impressive. It is very much a story of how EU regional development subsidies can really make a difference in a relatively short time. IIRC they don't get that aid and preference anymore...

So yeah, they're made of money!

On topic ;): I think Javelins are a very good choice for an infantry army like the Irish have.

[swerve]

Holy !!!! I knew their GDP had exploded over the past decade, and is now twice that of say NZ, but I had no idea that they had surpassed DK in GDP/cap. 48.600 USD vs 48.000 USD is freaking impressive. It is very much a story of how EU regional development subsidies can really make a difference in a relatively short time. IIRC they don't get that aid and preference anymore...

So yeah, they're made of money!

On topic ;): I think Javelins are a very good choice for an infantry army like the Irish have.

1) Ahead at purchasing power parities even more. The aid has been tailing off as they've got richer, but there's a lag. I think it's only just cut off completely.

2) Agreed.

[Waylander]

I also don't understand the criticism about this purchase. The Javelin fits good into light infantry forces as their main AT-weapon.
And as said before during peacekeeping operations some Javelins in your heavy weapons platoons give you some AT-capabilities when needed without having to maintain and and run a small fleet of vehicles which is for sure not cheaper than procuring some more missiles if the old ones are used.

[Aussie Digger]

Yes they are!

Richest country per head in the EU after Luxembourg, which is 1) tiny (400K people), & 2) GDP per head is hugely distorted by all the people who live over the border (so not counted in the population) & work in Luxembourg.

Not bad, when you remember Ireland had half the GDP per head of the UK in 1960. Started its spectacular advance in the 1980s. English go to Ireland to work now, not the other way round.

Alright, well they're not going to integrate a 120mm gun on the Rooivalk or any other wheeled armoured vehicle because they're not very warlike and obviously not interested in developing higher level warfighting capabilities beyond that necessary to equip light infantry and light motorised forces for UN sponsored peace-keeping operations, despite possessing a suitable population, financial and industrial base to do so!!!

There. Happy? :rel

[Big-E]

Does anyone know the shelf-life of the Javalin?

[swerve]

Alright, well they're not going to integrate a 120mm gun on the Rooivalk or any other wheeled armoured vehicle because they're not very warlike and obviously not interested in developing higher level warfighting capabilities beyond that necessary to equip light infantry and light motorised forces for UN sponsored peace-keeping operations, despite possessing a suitable population, financial and industrial base to do so!!!

There. Happy? :rel

Very :lol3

[Gladius]

Does anyone know the shelf-life of the Javalin?

According to Raytheon, ten years.

[Big-E]

According to Raytheon, ten years.

If it only operates in a 10 yr window does everyone still think it's a good buy?

[Waylander]

Jap, because during this 10 years they have a AT capability for their light infantry forces which is much much cheaper to operate than a specialised vehicle, much better to deploy and they are able to carry some AT capability with them even while they are on a patrol with light armored vehicles, jeeps, etc.
A specialised vehicle would be the next step to increase the firepower of peacekeeping forces and is not able to substitute a portable ATGM.

Just for comparison, modern 120mm ammo is up to 20 years operable.

[Sea Toby]

Yes, since Javelins will be sold via FMS. Test firing two to three missiles per year will consume the original order, with new missile replacements being purchased as expended.

Irealand, like New Zealand, has faced tanks in their peacekeeping missions recently, without any ablility to attack the tanks except for calling in close air support. The costs of having a modern ATM capability for their light infantry forces is not a budget breaker. One LAV costs more than a minimium Javelin order.

Furthermore, having already acquired the Javelin system, these countries will move to the front of the acquisition line buying more when necessary. If their 12 launchers are deemed not enough in the future, more launchers and missiles can be easily added at a later date.

Since Ireland doesn't have any tank forces or fighter/bombers in its inventory, Javelins is probably their best route to an anti-tank capabality for their armed forces, without buying tanks.

[Aussie Digger]

Yes, since Javelins will be sold via FMS. Test firing two to three missiles per year will consume the original order, with new missile replacements being purchased as expended.

Irealand, like New Zealand, has faced tanks in their peacekeeping missions recently, without any ablility to attack the tanks except for calling in close air support. The costs of having a modern ATM capability for their light infantry forces is not a budget breaker. One LAV costs more than a minimium Javelin order.

Furthermore, having already acquired the Javelin system, these countries will move to the front of the acquisition line buying more when necessary. If their 12 launchers are deemed not enough in the future, more launchers and missiles can be easily added at a later date.

Since Ireland doesn't have any tank forces or fighter/bombers in its inventory, Javelins is probably their best route to an anti-tank capabality for their armed forces, without buying tanks.

Plus Ireland would be able to quickly acquire greater numbers of missiles AND launchers from the UK or USA in an emergency. It's a bit hard to introduce additional armoured vehicles in a matter of days if not hours...

Perhaps instead of discussing armoured vehicle options for Ireland, we should be discussing acquisition of an armed recon helicopter for Ireland's forces? Such a capacity would not have to be a dedicated gunship, but something more like the US Army's new Bell 407 based ARH.

Something that can conduct transport/utility missions as well as recon/fire support missions as required...

Perhaps the 407 itself or an armed variant of the EC-635???

[merocaine]

Perhaps instead of discussing armoured vehicle options for Ireland, we should be discussing acquisition of an armed recon helicopter for Ireland's forces? Such a capacity would not have to be a dedicated gunship, but something more like the US Army's new Bell 407 based ARH.


It would be nice for the troops to have some organic air cover/recon ability. But we never operate on our own and are always imbedded with other (better equiped) UN troops.
We do operate Scorpion light tanks in a infantry support/recon role, and the Mowag Piranha has been introduced, i think there called LAV's in the states.

The Javlein is a very welcome addition to the inventory, and fits into our force structure, an MBT for Irish troops would be like titts on a Bull.

Irish troops are light infantry, with the Irish Army Rangers, being patterned on the US Rangers.

[Big-E]

an MBT for Irish troops would be like titts on a Bull.


Have your milk and drink it to.

[Waylander]

For me as a non native speaker...

What does that mean?

[Big-E]

For me as a non native speaker...

What does that mean?

It was a pun of "you can't have your cake and eat it to." If you eat your cake its gone. If you drink your milk, from the perverbial bull with teets then you can have it and drink it to.

[Waylander]

Ah, ok. I thin I got it.
Thanks.

In my opinion a MBT for Ireland would also mean total overkill. Maybe an integrated ATGM system into their Phiranas to increase their abilities but nothing more.
What kind of artillery or mortar system does Ireland uses?

[mug]

It was a pun of "you can't have your cake and eat it to." If you eat your cake its gone. If you drink your milk, from the perverbial bull with teets then you can have it and drink it to.


I understood it to refer to the old saying, "as useless as tits on a bull."

Cheers.

[Big-E]

I understood it to refer to the old saying, "as useless as tits on a bull."

Cheers.

That's why my remark was a pun... dooh :tomato

Nevermind, I'm sorry I brought it up.:o

[mug]

My bad!

:)

[merocaine]

105mm L118 & L119 Howitzers, and 81mmLBLM and 120mm mortars.

RBS 70 manpads system, for close air support.

84mm Carl Gustaf anti-tank & 84mm MILAN anti-tank systems & the aforementioned Javlein.

The FN MAG and M2 Machine Guns, and the Steyr AUG A1.

And thats about it folks. Not exacty terrifying.:D

[Waylander]

Enough for light infantry.

[merocaine]

does the job alright

[PlasmaKrab]

Don't forget the Piranha-IIIs that are still being delivered AFAIK.
And what about the old Scorpions? Is there somethign scheduled to replace them? If not, how about a Piranha-III with the MGS turret? :D

[Waylander]

Arrrgh, MGS again. :shudder :D

[merocaine]

MGS turret?
Whats that?

ah yes the scorpion, what are they 35 years old... we'd be better off with some IVF's, I fancy those swedish CV90's
coming in at 2.65 million there quite reasonable, I see you can mount a 120 mm gun! instant MBT! and its got a low profile too, kind of like the Irish army


MGS
Ah just checked it out, looks like a big fat target, designed for turret seperation

[Waylander]

I would call the CV90120 not an instant MBT.
A vehicle which has to fear a 30mm on the front is no MBT. ;)

There is a nice discussion about the usefullness of these big guns on IFV chassis for small armys in this thread about NZ.
The situation of Ireland and NZ is not that different.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5281

[merocaine]

I would call the CV90120 not an instant MBT.
A vehicle which has to fear a 30mm on the front is no MBT.

was just having a giggle mate:)

I'll check out the thread cheers

[robsta83]

There is a nice discussion about the usefullness of these big guns on IFV chassis for small armys in this thread about NZ.
The situation of Ireland and NZ is not that different.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5281

Yeah theyre are quite close, a Company of Irish Rangers with the NZ Batt group for at least 12 months in '99 Timor, not to mention strong Immigrant ties of which i'm a product of. ;)

[Manfred]

The very first thing I thought of when I first saw this thread was; "the Irish are spending their newly-earned whealth on [I]what?[I]

I makes sense when you see the UN connection, and it also makes sense from the money side too, but there is a problem with relying on ATGMs; they are esentialy a defensive system.

you can mount an assault without armor, but it costs more blood than treasure, and is difficult today against a foe that has tanks. Even if your role is purely defensive, you need to be able to make counterattacks to regain lost ground. That is why tanks still exist.

[Waylander]

This is right of you think about big countrys but Ireland? :dodgy

Why should Ireland built up a tank force?
ATGMs together with IFVs should be enough for peacekeeping operations together with other nations.

Or do you think Ireland is going to attack another country in the near future?

[PlasmaKrab]

Manfred, you have to consider that Ireland has re-engineered its armed forces specifically for peacekeeping contingencies. In a UN operation, they would never act alone, much rather have small forces integrated in larger units from other countries or task-reinforced battalions, in other words, they would have piecemealed heavier means available, from countries who can afford having them and shipping them.

Besides, where are they going to find an armored opposition? Lebanon? Somalia? Ivory Coast? you name them. Even if they do (hell, if they never do, where's the point in buying ATGMs in the first place?), their Piranhas are only battlefield taxis rather than fighting vehicles, so they could revert to old-style infantry in case they are attacked.
Now go and send your tanks dig out a coy of well-trained Irish (replace with whichever highly-trained UN-friendly nation) grunts armed with Javelins, I do think you would get you head handed back to you quickly enough.;)

[moughoun]

sorry about the necro post, but anyway, we got 60 launchers, 100+ missiles plus options, about the MBTs don't really need them, yes they would be nice, but, we do have an order for more Piranhas some with 30mm cannon, the MGS was looked at but since we still don't know if it will enter large scale service in the US, never mind any where else, we passed, the centauro is being looked at now, so we'll see how that works out, the scorpions will get new diesel engines, and FCS

[Imshi-Yallah]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but some fairly fundamental mistruths have been posted about the Irish Defence Forces on this thread.

Firstly the Irish army is based on a Light infantry brigade structure with no independent Artillery or Armour assets other than those used by the training centres (this includes the 14 CVRTs which have yet to see an operational deployment although they may yet).

However this does not mean that it has been reduced to the sort of Gendarmerie force suggested here. The three regular and to a lesser extent the three reserve brigades have their own integrated Artillery and LAR capabilities, while the Air Corps used to acting as an independent gentleman's flying club is in effect becoming the Army Aviation asset it always should have been.

The Infantry battalions are equipped along standard NATO lines for Light Infantry with rifle companies using Sustained fire role FN MAG58s (in addition to the Light Role MAG58 being the section/squad support weapon) Carl Gustav MK II RCLs with Laser Range Finders and Midi Kite sights (MKIII is on the procurement list) and Vektor 60mm mortars (which unlike their predecessors can be used in an assault role to supplement M203 fires in a rapid advance or just drop smoke/illum).

The Battalion Manouvre Support companies have the usual HMG and 81mm LB mortar platoons as well as the Anti-Tank platoon which was until recently equipped with the Milan and now the Javelin.

In addition there is a generous allocation of M136AT4 per infantry section. So you can see where the Javelin fits into the existing warfighting structure as well as for Battalion task groups for peacekeeping.

It is important to understand that the impoverished Ireland of the Cold War era developed the most realistic defence policy it could against the possibility of a Soviet invasion:

In essence the almost entirely Light Infantry based army with it's minimal logistical tail would quickly withdraw from terrain that favoured large manouvre elements such as Motor Rifle Battalions and Armoured Regiments and conduct small unit delaying actions in terrain that would frustrate enemy manouvre, logs and RISTA efforts hopefully long enough for US Forces to arrive via a specially constructed airfield and later via deepwater harbours.

Now back to topic.
The Javelin fits nicely into our brigade structure of three infantry battalions, a Logistics battalion, a field engineering company, a cavalry Squadron with Light Armour for flank security and screening and an artillery regiment equipped with L118 or L119 (reserves) light guns and until recently (pending a replacement program) 120mm mortars (a heavier variety than the US infantry 120mm).
At the moment the entire armour component of the Irish Army consists of a rather embarrassing:
1. 65 Mowag Piranha IIIH Infantry APCs with FVT800 turrets[specialised ambulance/fitters vehicles and command vehicles included, about ten in all] (original commitment was for 80 but someone needed a new government jet funded out of the pitiful defence budget which incidentally was drawn from cost savings from downsizing and property sales)

2. 36 AML 20 4x4 Light Armoured Recconaissance vehicles

3. 18 AML 90 4x4 LARs (providing cav troop fire support)

4. 14 CVRT Scorpion (concentrated in one tracked vehicle cadre)

5. 2 Patria XA-180 6x6 APCs ( a holdover from the days of using leased Finnish vehicles with UNIFIL)

6. 15 Piranha IIIH with OTO Melara HITFIST 30 turret and/or Kongsberg RWS (on order, the original break down was 9 close reconaissance vehicles with RWS and HMG/GMG and 6 Medium reconaissance vehicles with the HITFIST 30 (the TOW launcher was originally to have been deleted but a little birdy tells me their has been resistance to losing this capability). These vehicles are intended to begin the replacing of the upgraded AML series with the regular army cavalry squadrons.

7. There is also an outstanding requirement for 66 Light Armour Tactical vehicles in Mowag Eagle IV class for cavalry reconaissance, infantry liaison and artillery Fire control. The first competition to select these vehicles was cancelled to fund a new government jet (priorities,priorities. You can take the bananas out of the republic but you can't stop them running it)
The second competition was cancelled due to a lack of products that met the Army's specifications after other forces experiences with this class of vehicle in Iraq and Afghanistan highlighted weaknesses.

As you can see from the list above there is little room for a force of heavy IFV or MBTs in the current structure, we would need to multiply our logistical capabilities several times over and it would take around a decade of investment (defence proffesionals correct me if I'm wrong) to get all the required loggies, technicians and support chains in place.

Buying Javelin didn't require any change and the army is still determined to acquire more firing posts eventually enough to equip all 9 regular army battalion, as it is they have significantly more missiles than there is an armour threat in any area of operations other than Kosovo where I believe there may be some friendly combat power on hand and again now Lebanon, where we'd need a lot more than a Tank battalion to best the Israelis (why would we want to?)

Not that I don't believe in getting more armour and heavy arty capability, but that I'll leave for another time.

[Aussie Digger]

Nice post, champ.

Thanks for informing us of the (relatively) little known Irish armed forces.

9 regular infantry battalions. Does your use of the word "regular" mean "full time" professional battalions, or something else?

If so, dang. Australia is trying to get back up to 8!!!

[Imshi-Yallah]

Yes that is Nine battalions of proffessional soldiers, unfortunately the equivalent nine reserve units are struggling to change to a more proffessional ethos ( a friend of mine is an officer in the Aussie Chocos and we Irish weekend warriors compare poorly at the moment).

If we had Australia or Canada's foreign policy we'd be kicking arse but the Professional army (PDF- Permanent defence force) isn't just held back by policy issues, the logistics provision for these battalions is a legacy of their former role as a largely Aid to the Civil Power and CoIN force. And is woefully inadequate for higher tempo operations, also by a combination of PDF apathy/suspicion of the reserve and the the general anti-military feel of the populace (it's like a reverse arms race between Ireland and New Zealand) a highly unproffessional and in many areas unmilitary culture has developed in the reserve forces here to the extent where in many units the culture is more akin to a youth club than a military force.
And due to the Army's unwillingness to be brutal with problematic individuals (read: the old and the bold) this situation will continue to abide for some time.
Apart from ranting about the shortcomings of my own organisation I mean to highlight the lack of a manpower reserve for those nine professional battalions, the provision of Integrated platoons, and specialist trades detachments from reserve units got to a halting start this year but until the point where each reserve battalion is capable of providing the planned company+ pool of suitably trained (and contractually obligated) personell can the nine PDF battalions be considered capable of conducting operations at battalion level as they are comparatively heavily tasked for domestic roles even with the post ceasefire rollbacks of the terrorist/insurgency threat here.

Again, I'll shut up before I get the threat locked for off topic.

[Whiskyjack]

Yes that is Nine battalions of proffessional soldiers, unfortunately the equivalent nine reserve units are struggling to change to a more proffessional ethos ( a friend of mine is an officer in the Aussie Chocos and we Irish weekend warriors compare poorly at the moment).

.


Thanks for the interesting information. Can I ask what the established strength of an Irish infantry battalion is?

[Imshi-Yallah]

The infantry battalion consists of the usual three rifle companies, HQ Company and Manouvre support company with an establishment of 650.

[Whiskyjack]

The infantry battalion consists of the usual three rifle companies, HQ Company and Manouvre support company with an establishment of 650.

Wow, so there are 9 of these battalions based on this model in the Regular army?

Sorry for the questions but I see the strength of the Irish army is around 8500, so it looks like a high proportion of infantry. In NZ with 4500 in the army we have problems manning 2 battalions!

[Imshi-Yallah]

No one said anything about being at their establishments. Unfortunately the various propositions for future restructuring focus on reducing the number of brigades in totality rather than say converting some of the existing manpower to logs support units and having them extend the reach and sustainability of two fully manned brigades.

[Whiskyjack]

No one said anything about being at their establishments. Unfortunately the various propositions for future restructuring focus on reducing the number of brigades in totality rather than say converting some of the existing manpower to logs support units and having them extend the reach and sustainability of two fully manned brigades.

Oh...that makes more sense then. 650 on paper, reality is all together different! :rolleyes:

If only armies fought on paper:onfloorl:

[Imshi-Yallah]

Hence my comments about the importance of the success of the integrated and restructured reserve elements to the PDF.

[Whiskyjack]

Hence my comments about the importance of the success of the integrated and restructured reserve elements to the PDF.


Does the Irish army deploy reserves often?

[Imshi-Yallah]

They have yet to.

Outside of the state that is, in past times reservists were used for supplementary ATCP or COIN roles, namely guarding likely terror targets (Hydroelectric dams etc) and stagging on in military establishments plus some green field patrol work in the !970s or 80s.

There has been no operational role between then and the advent of this new one which is expected to give fruit by 2008/9

[ryan385]

Does any one know what the organizational structure for Irish infantry companies and sections is? It almost seems like they use the older British section structure of a 2 man fn mag gun team, a 3 man command/scout team and a 3 man assault team. As well as the old American company structure of a weapons platoon and two rifle platoons. Thanks for any information.

[riksavage]

Imshi-Yallah - With the Northern Irish peace process back on track do you know if the Irish Regular Army has started to cross-train with there UK counterparts? Historically this was a no, no for political reasons. I know UK continues to recruit from Southern Ireland, Northern Ireland and amongst the Irish community in mainland Britain, so the family links remain strong.

[Super Nimrod]

If only Irish military could persuade their Govt to front up the readies for even half a dozen AH-64's, that would significantly improve their capability in the peacekeeping roll, indeed they would be a force to be reckoned with just like the Dutch in this roll. They could even share training with the Brits and no doubt share some of the logistics train.

[Rossiman]

Thank you ST for the info of Irish deployments. I was trying to get on the IDF site and couldn't get on to find that.

My observations of javelins. It is an impressive weapon. It is an expensive weapon. Reloads for Irelands budget probably won't be an option. Looking back at the NZ deal I imagine Ireland won't be getting more than what, 20 missiles or less? With the support costs that doesn't leave many missiles. Personally I think getting 1 used advanced MBT would be a better investment. Whatever tanks the peacekeepers come across will not be quality tanks. Their javelins will be worth more than the T-34/55 target tank they come across. Getting a surplus Leopard will be more than enough to take out a whole column of enemy tanks, plus she gets reloads on the cheap!

Ya, investing in a good attack copter or a tank would be a much better option. Dont they already got some ATGM's?

[cimino]

Does anyone know if Ireland has retired it's MILAN ATGW units as a result of the Javelin purchase? And did they ever bring MILAN's on overseas missions?

[Chrom]

Does anyone know if Ireland has retired it's MILAN ATGW units as a result of the Javelin purchase? And did they ever bring MILAN's on overseas missions? They could do it if Milan ATGM's stock run out of service life. I dont know when exactly was last MILAN ATGM delivers - but most ATGM's have about ~ 20 years service life.

Most likely both Javelin and MILAN are still in Irish inventory.

[IrishHitman]

This is unsurprising given Ireland's UN role, and the fact that Thales' AT/AA missile facility is about 40 miles away from the border up in Belfast.

For all those "gungho" military junkies who don't know, Ireland is a constitutionally neutral country, and sees real MBTs as a weapon intended for offensive actions of the aggressive nature rather than the self-defence nature.

And will therefore, never "go buy some second-hand Leopards", and will never require their use anyway. Whoever suggested Apaches/Longbows can sincerely kiss my ass, Ireland has no need for that

For whoever asked if Ireland deploys their reserves, to my knowledge, they're only officially deployed at home one weekend a year per section or something along those lines. They are also used in aid of civil power (they patrolled around to stop cattle movements during the foot+mouth crisis for instance.) They're never deployed abroad. I'll have to ask one of my mates who is in the Reserves for more details..

Ireland's peacekeeping quota (10% of all forces) is currently fully committed.
A recruitment campaign such as the one they had a few years back is needed if Mr. O'Dea wishes to do more, which he most certainly does.
Peacekeepers do wonders for our prestige for some reason..

Ireland is acknowledged for having very skilled infantrymen.
Our Ranger Wing is among the best in the world, and currently hold the records for best long range and best helicopter snipers (both .50cal, in both cases our snipers had never used a .50cal before).

[riksavage]

The Irish set-up appears more akin to a para-military policing unit than fully-fledged army (no integrated all arms experience). They are very lightly armed (by European standards) thus ideally suited for peace keeping / policing actions. The need for an attack helicopter or main battle tank is redundant, plus the logistics chain to support such additions (training, maintenance, POL, technical support) is very costly and totally prohibitive for a nation with a very small defence budget.

[IrishHitman]

The Irish set-up appears more akin to a para-military policing unit than fully-fledged army (no integrated all arms experience). They are very lightly armed (by European standards) thus ideally suited for peace keeping / policing actions. The need for an attack helicopter or main battle tank is redundant, plus the logistics chain to support such additions (training, maintenance, POL, technical support) is very costly and totally prohibitive for a nation with a very small defence budget.

Ireland relies on diplomacy to solve its conflicts, so this is somewhat true.

However, it is a fully fledged army in terms of training and capabilities (limited though they may be), we do have artillery units and support units...

[ZotiRaki]

Anybody know what the distribution of 81mm mortars is within the Irish Army? I'd also be interested to know when they got the Morfire system, and whether they have an artillery fire control system in place.

[pindown]

I worked with the irish army in Lebanon, I always found them to be friendly and proffesional , I must admit that I always wondered why they were there
I am sure that they are buying the anti tank missiles for UN use as they have
no enemies

[2S1]

Anybody know what the distribution of 81mm mortars is within the Irish Army? I'd also be interested to know when they got the Morfire system, and whether they have an artillery fire control system in place.

Each IDF Light-Role Infantry Battalion has a Fire Support Company with a Mortar Platoon organic with 3 sections of 2x81mm tubes. MORFIRE is a natural choice FC system for these platoons.

[2S1]

I worked with the irish army in Lebanon, I always found them to be friendly and proffesional , I must admit that I always wondered why they were there
I am sure that they are buying the anti tank missiles for UN use as they have
no enemies


Exceptionally professional. The only reason Ireland doesn't join NATO is that the British are there.

[FluffyThoughts]

Exceptionally professional. The only reason Ireland doesn't join NATO is that the British are there.

Silly point. The Irish - of all colours - will fight for The Crown when required (and requested). The Irish Defence Forces are neutral, hence no NATO.

The citizens of the Republic can and do fight for The Crown. They might have a fair complaint against the "British Army", but they are more likely to support said force then an anti-democratic EU-monstrosity! :p:

[Onkel]

I worked with the irish army in Lebanon, ...

By the way: I heard, the Israely army was not completely satisfied with Javelin during the Lebanon Conflict, because the heatseeker needet often to much time to cool down, when an armourded vehicle appeared. That shall be, why some forces like our Bundeswehr prefere wireguided ATMs. Anybody heared about it?

[riksavage]

There has been an increasing amount of coverage in the UK and Southern Irish press recently about the growing number of Southern Irish citizens joining the UK military (see below articles).

The Irish, both North and South of the border have always had a strong and distinguished track-record fighting for the British Crown even after the South became a dedicated neutral country.

With the formal end of Operation Banner there appears to be less of a stigma associated with such a move coupled with the increased likelihood of serving on operational tours, instead of being restricted to peace keeping operations only.

I have no idea whether the Southern Irish Defence Force is suffering from a recruitment problem, or whether the Government would try and stop their citizens fighting for Britain, particularly when some of the recruits are ex-serving Southern Irish Soldiers who have left after two-three years and then joined the Brit's.

As Ireland is not a member of the Commonwealth, could you see the Government banning such a practice in the future? South Africa after all tried to introduce a mercenary ban preventing its citizens fighting for foreign armies / PMC's (even though the UK Government negotiated a waver).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4724617.ece

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1054462/British-Army-enjoys-recruitment-boom-Irish-Republic-troops-leave-Northern-Ireland.html?ITO=1490

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0905/afghan.html

[Onkel]

It´s about the disantvantages of Spike and Javelin (unfortunately in german, I try to tranlate): http://www.europaeische-sicherheit.de/Ausgaben/2007/2007_07/03_Michael/2007,07,03.html

(about spike)
From the moment of the targets detection until the shot 25 seconds pass by, because the heatseeker has to be cooled down. A lot of time in duell situations. Furthermore it´s difficult to shoot on cool targets, because the seeker may not find them.

(about javelin)
The same for javelin. From Detection to shooting up to 30 seconds may pass by. The US Forces used it in the struggle for Baghdad. A lot of targets couldn´t be found by the heatseeker, so that targets could get away. A lot too much warheads didn´t work. As a result US forces preferred wireguided TOW 2.

Another point may be, that a wireguided system is not as easy to be interfered, as one using an autonomous heatseeker.

[Waylander]

But while Javelin is helpless when the seeker doesn't automatically finds a target Spike can still be guided by a man in the loop giving it IMHO a good advantage over Javelin.
Not to talk of Javelin in the end being more vulnerable to passive protection systems and having less range.

[Onkel]

Right you are, Spike can also be used wireguided.

[aalusna]

By the way: I heard, the Israely army was not completely satisfied with Javelin during the Lebanon Conflict, because the heatseeker needet often to much time to cool down, when an armourded vehicle appeared. That shall be, why some forces like our Bundeswehr prefere wireguided ATMs. Anybody heared about it?

Israeli Army has the Rafael Spike ATGM not the Javelin. Gotta support those local industries.

[aalusna]

IDF uses the Spike ATGM (made by Rafael). Gotta support those local industries (with US taxpayer $).