Are Russians fleecing Indians?

[icekid]

1) The Russians have almost doubled the price of their aircraft carrier headed for the Indian Navy. Instead they paying us money for delays on the contracted date we end up paying double for something which basically is a refurbished piece of crap.

2) The Russians midway escalated the price of Su30MKI by almost 20% stating some flimsy reasons. When Indians complained that they were bound by the terms of contract the Russians gave us a simple reply, take it or leave it.

3) The Indian army is complaining that the Ruskies have overcharged us by atleast 50% for the T90s tanks we ordered. A similar tank can be had for a much lower price if we approach the Ukrainians.

4) The Russians have managed to the unthinkable they have sold us anti ship cruise missiles for our frigates and destroyers at twice the price of a comparable American missile. The best part of the deal is that after 17 tests the missile is yet to hit its designated target. The deal is worth 1000s of crores.

5) It was agreed for the development of 5th generation joint fighter India was to contribute 2billion dollars. Now they want us to pay 5billion.

The Russians know that we are dependent on them for most of the defence hardware. So they cant help but milk the Indian cow. Bilateral trade is negligible apart from defense purchases. So this the only way they can fleece us. This also shows poorly of the various Indian governments and the Indian defense. How could one induct a missile in the Navy which has never hit a target in the past. I read a similar report last year when it was told that the army had procured thousands of bullet proof vest for the soldiers in Kashmir but the vest couldn't protect the soldier from fire from AK type rifles which the terrorist use.


Ps, I think its high time we gave those a dose of reality and go in for weapons from other countries. The MCA deal should be a good starting point.

[funtz]

By the available news it seems they are making a killing, hope that is not true, however sadly all news people say it is.

When ever i see the R&D investment into defense it seems that we wish for diamonds while investing a penny, that is not going to happen.


India refuses upgraded submarines from Russia: Report

January 11, 2008 21:34 IST
Last Updated: January 11, 2008 21:57 IST
On the heels of the deadlock over the pricing of Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, India has refused to take delivery of the latest submarine INS Sindhuvijay from Russia, saying its cruise missile had not performed up to parameters.

The Navy refused to take delivery of the Sindhuvijay, which completed refit at a shipyard near St Petersburg, after its missiles failed to find their targets in six consecutive test firings, the India Today reported.

The pre-delivery test firings were carried out between September and November.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jan/11sub.htm

"The 50-man crew sent to Russia to sail back with the submarine is set to return to India, with the Naval brass taking a stern line by asking the shipyard to rectify the problem, before it takes delivery of the sub," the magazine said.

The land attack cruise missile flies over 300 km and delivers a 400 kg warhead to its target with pinpoint accuracy.

Naval officials said it would take another year to rectify the defects and prove it in firing trials.

In a contract signed in 2001, India had sent ten Kilo class submarines to Russia for upgradation to make them capable of firing the Klub class land attack cruise missiles.

Sindhuvijay was only the second Indian submarine to be fitted with land attack variants of the missiles. India had purchased 28 Klub class missiles, worth Rs 844 crores, from Russia in 2006. Anti-ship variants of the missiles failed in repeated test firings in Indian waters.

Defence Minister A K Antony had said on Wednesday that though negotiations were on, the deadlock over the delivery of the Gorshkov still remained to be resolved.

Citing time and costs overruns, Russia had asked for a whooping extra US $ 1.2 billion for the warship, which was scheduled to be delivered in August this year. The delivery of the carrier has already been pushed back to 2012-13.

India and Russia had a similar spat, over the delivery of the upgraded IL-38 maritime reconnaissance aircraft, when the Navy complained that its dragon suites were not working up to the parameters.
The deliveries were only taken after Russia rectified the suites.

[ROCK45]

Hi icekid
I read your post and looking in from the outside it sure seems Russia getting over on India. I always wanted to know if India like there T-90s tanks but didn't know about the cost overruns. I thought India held up the contract on the Flankers thus slowing the production run and causing the 20% increase because they waited too long to finalize what was going in them? I thought that was a HAL thing and not a Russian thing but you may know better. I didn't know about the anti-ship missile failing 17 test?

icekid can you tell me if you know of something that India bought from Russia that they really like? I would like to here from the other side I'm looking for some positive items? thanks

1000s of crores = to how many millions of dollars? I'm trying to understand the cost of this arms deal. If you know, thanks.

[onslaught]

Well the Indians obtained a license to produce over 100 Su-30MKI's for themselves, so they seem to like the plane; what's really not to like about the Su-30MKI? As for the T-90, it's not just the cost that India has to worry about. The cameras don't seem to work well in the extreme tropical heat and there's a shortage of 125mm smoothbore ammo. There's also problems with the FCS and there's a short supply of ATGM's. What really horrifies me is that this article said that the temperatures in the tank can reach 60 degrees celcius!!! I'll try to get that link working.

[funtz]

All including the British the French and the USAmericans :D would have done the same.

Time to invest more on indigenous systems and accept them even if they do not preform to super duper foreign standards.

I never saw the first post carefully, but its just loaded with lots of BS.


1) The Russians have almost doubled the price of their aircraft carrier headed for the Indian Navy. Instead they paying us money for delays on the contracted date we end up paying double for something which basically is a refurbished piece of crap.

2) The Russians midway escalated the price of Su30MKI by almost 20% stating some flimsy reasons. When Indians complained that they were bound by the terms of contract the Russians gave us a simple reply, take it or leave it.

3) The Indian army is complaining that the Ruskies have overcharged us by atleast 50% for the T90s tanks we ordered. A similar tank can be had for a much lower price if we approach the Ukrainians.

4) The Russians have managed to the unthinkable they have sold us anti ship cruise missiles for our frigates and destroyers at twice the price of a comparable American missile. The best part of the deal is that after 17 tests the missile is yet to hit its designated target. The deal is worth 1000s of crores.

5) It was agreed for the development of 5th generation joint fighter India was to contribute 2billion dollars. Now they want us to pay 5billion.



dont be so Pi##ed off at them that you start making your own figures.

- The Indian Navy should not have trusted the russians on the aircraft carrier thing in the first place, its a professional organization, they should have ran some estimation on the capability of the russian shipyards, this big a mess suggests they did nothing till it was too late.

- SU-30MKI was not escalated by 20%, its more like 2.5 % to 5%.

- Indian Army is not complaining about the T-90s, they love them more than their wives.

- The Club missile for the ships is not being questioned, its for the submarine upgrade that the problem has come up, a lot of news has come out about the issue by now.

- The PAK-FA offer was Russian, they needed 5 billion dollars, the 2 billion figure has been quoted much later by some news reports quoting ghosts, no one can confirm that or deny that, these defence journolists have it easy. IS there even a single statement by the government of India about the details of the program. Further more it was our own government who accpeted the Russian PAK-FA project, after taking a lot of time, this did not just happen over night.


I read a similar report last year when it was told that the army had procured thousands of bullet proof vest for the soldiers in Kashmir but the vest couldn't protect the soldier from fire from AK type rifles which the terrorist use.


Do you even know the situations and the types of vests.

[ROCK45]

I agree what's not to like about MKI Flankers the aircraft is a great performer. I wondering do other tank type have similar problems in the tropical heat? What does FCS stand for or mean? The ammo I would have thought India produces themselves? ATGM's shortest is it a Russia problem or a Indian not paying problem? I'm trying not to fall into Russia does everything late or badly mode but maybe India needs to spread out there orders a little. I'm a huge Mig-29 Fulcrum fan but think India shouldn't go this route Rafale's or high Block Vipers would serve India very well. Do Russian helicopters work well? A friend told me that Venezuela who just bought Russian Hip-17s are looking at French helicopters. I'm trying to search that but not finding anything but notice Algeria bought: http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=44f7c6b4-8478-4de3-a84d-e63107d3dcc2
So I assume they weren't happy with there Russia helicopters.

[Chrom]

After a bit of searching i get following info: There was a final test with newly build Pr.877EKM submarine. All six (btw, where you got 17???) Club-S missiles launched against land targets were unsuccessfull. Ofc, this suggest some problem either in new particular Club-S serie or laucn platform. Note, Club-S is pretty much in serial production and were throughtfully tested (and already accepted by some costumers) before. Some is with Pr.877EKM submarine (it is also by far not the first in its class) . But small modifications and upgrades are made every year both in missile and lauch platform, so something gone wrong. It is pretty normal and usual situation by all standards. Russian side promised to rectify the error in next 2 months, but new tests could only be made by June due to weather conditions.

As i said, this kind of situations is pretty usual. I'm sure everyone can remember one regarding every other weapon supplier.

As for the rest - everyone know the $$ inflation and oil prices got out of hand in the recent 3 years. So for large long-term contracts it might be cheaper for russian factories to cancel contract and pay the penalty. This is the problems you got over very long-term contract without proper cost escalations. The only problem here - India will not find anything cheaper to buy anyway as costs in other countries are also escalated, and russian suppliers will just include payd penalties in new contracts.

So in the end it is counterproductive for India to go wild and just cancel contracts. Thats why new negotiations to adjust price usually takes place.

[onslaught]

I agree what's not to like about MKI Flankers the aircraft is a great performer. I wondering do other tank type have similar problems in the tropical heat? What does FCS stand for or mean? The ammo I would have thought India produces themselves? ATGM's shortest is it a Russia problem or a Indian not paying problem? I'm trying not to fall into Russia does everything late or badly mode but maybe India needs to spread out there orders a little. I'm a huge Mig-29 Fulcrum fan but think India shouldn't go this route Rafale's or high Block Vipers would serve India very well. Do Russian helicopters work well? A friend told me that Venezuela who just bought Russian Hip-17s are looking at French helicopters. I'm trying to search that but not finding anything but notice Algeria bought: http://www.shephard.co.uk/Rotorhub/Default.aspx?Action=745115149&ID=44f7c6b4-8478-4de3-a84d-e63107d3dcc2
So I assume they weren't happy with there Russia helicopters.

FCS stands for fire control system. It pretty much helps the weapon aim whatever its firing while taking into account any factors that may affect its trajectory. The article I read says India has run out of imported ammo so I'm assuming that India hasn't put an Indian made round in service yet. Regarding Russian exports, the exports will always look great on paper, but do you think they will actually be as effective as the seller makes it seem? For example, I believe the Su-24MK, which was sold to several Mid East countries, was a downgraded Su-24M.
I'm still trying to get the link to work but nothing I do is working.

[ROCK45]

Hi onslaught
Thanks I must be brain dead today I know what a fire control system does and is. I went back and search around and can't find any Venezuelan comments that there Russian made helicopter are having problems. I also look around at the Russian-Algerian deal and so far only a few SMT Fulcrums problems, one side claiming they old aircraft and basically not much done to them, and Russia saying they were tested and are fine. I read that two were sent back then the information just drops off. I read here that "Irkut Man Gets Top Job at MiG" http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2008/01/10/043.html maybe this is a little shake up RSG MIG needs. I never been very impressed with how Russia markets there products. A F-16 gets a new bolt for a drop tank Boeing throws a press conferance and RSG MIG releases a new SMT Fulcrum to a huge new customer and basically nothing. I'm don't know why Algeria didn't get the M (land version Indian K model) Fulcrum, why the less capable SMT type? It's like a customer wanted to buy a F-16s and wants the Block-40 over the Block-52, doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it's a money thing Algeria the 5th largest producer of natural gas in the world. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe training? Yemem has the SMT 9.18 and Algeria bought the 9.19, (fater spine)hope I got that right, anyway maybe Yemem's helping with training? I know it's slim Algeria has much more resorces to work with. These are the only two countries that fly the SMT upgraded Fulcrum that I can find. You would think there would be more information right? Selling there new fighter, showing it off a little? Nothing. I think Russia wins the prize here in disfuctional arms trading.

[Chrom]

Hi onslaught
Thanks I must be brain dead today I know what a fire control system does and is. I went back and search around and can't find any Venezuelan comments that there Russian made helicopter are having problems. I also look around at the Russian-Algerian deal and so far only a few SMT Fulcrums problems, one side claiming they old aircraft and basically not much done to them, and Russia saying they were tested and are fine. I read that two were sent back then the information just drops off. I read here that "Irkut Man Gets Top Job at MiG" http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2008/01/10/043.html maybe this is a little shake up RSG MIG needs. I never been very impressed with how Russia markets there products. A F-16 gets a new bolt for a drop tank Boeing throws a press conferance and RSG MIG releases a new SMT Fulcrum to a huge new customer and basically nothing. I'm don't know why Algeria didn't get the M (land version Indian K model) Fulcrum, why the less capable SMT type? It's like a customer wanted to buy a F-16s and wants the Block-40 over the Block-52, doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it's a money thing Algeria the 5th largest producer of natural gas in the world. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe training? Yemem has the SMT 9.18 and Algeria bought the 9.19, (fater spine)hope I got that right, anyway maybe Yemem's helping with training? I know it's slim Algeria has much more resorces to work with. These are the only two countries that fly the SMT upgraded Fulcrum that I can find. You would think there would be more information right? Selling there new fighter, showing it off a little? Nothing. I think Russia wins the prize here in disfuctional arms trading.
Mig-29SMT by its nature cant be NEW aircraft. It is an upgrade of OLD aircrafts by definition. So i dont really know whats going on here...

[onslaught]

Hi onslaught
Thanks I must be brain dead today I know what a fire control system does and is. I went back and search around and can't find any Venezuelan comments that there Russian made helicopter are having problems. I also look around at the Russian-Algerian deal and so far only a few SMT Fulcrums problems, one side claiming they old aircraft and basically not much done to them, and Russia saying they were tested and are fine. I read that two were sent back then the information just drops off. I read here that "Irkut Man Gets Top Job at MiG" http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2008/01/10/043.html maybe this is a little shake up RSG MIG needs. I never been very impressed with how Russia markets there products. A F-16 gets a new bolt for a drop tank Boeing throws a press conferance and RSG MIG releases a new SMT Fulcrum to a huge new customer and basically nothing. I'm don't know why Algeria didn't get the M (land version Indian K model) Fulcrum, why the less capable SMT type? It's like a customer wanted to buy a F-16s and wants the Block-40 over the Block-52, doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it's a money thing Algeria the 5th largest producer of natural gas in the world. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe training? Yemem has the SMT 9.18 and Algeria bought the 9.19, (fater spine)hope I got that right, anyway maybe Yemem's helping with training? I know it's slim Algeria has much more resorces to work with. These are the only two countries that fly the SMT upgraded Fulcrum that I can find. You would think there would be more information right? Selling there new fighter, showing it off a little? Nothing. I think Russia wins the prize here in disfuctional arms trading.


What makes you think that the MiG-29SMT is less capable? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the SMT is newer. Well, as for the Algerians buying the SMT, I think it's because the SMT is an upgrade package for the original MiG- 29s which algeria has.Also, the Venezuelans might have a few problems with the Mi-35, similar to the ones India had with them.

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20001127/defence2.shtml

[eaf-f16]

What makes you think that the MiG-29SMT is less capable? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the SMT is newer. Well, as for the Algerians buying the SMT, I think it's because the SMT is an upgrade package for the original MiG- 29s which algeria has.Also, the Venezuelans might have a few problems with the Mi-35, similar to the ones India had with them.

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20001127/defence2.shtml

He was saying that the MiG-29M/M2 is more capable than the MiG-29SMT, which it is.

[ROCK45]

That's what confusing with this deal why did they go with the less capable model? The Indian's K model had to be on the production line right? It makes me think that the K model Fulcrum is a custom order completely and that Russia isn't in a position to produce the Mig-29M1/M2 even. If production was setup Algeria would have purchased the newer model in the form of the Mig-29 M1 and M2. So the Mig-35 must be years away from being a real produced fighter. If India selects this fighter today (blank) the Mig-35, it will be 2012 or 2013 before deliveries start. That I think would break ten years to select a 3rd + or 4th generation fighter.

[Chrom]

That's what confusing with this deal why did they go with the less capable model? The Indian's K model had to be on the production line right? It makes me think that the K model Fulcrum is a custom order completely and that Russia isn't in a position to produce the Mig-29M1/M2 even. If production was setup Algeria would have purchased the newer model in the form of the Mig-29 M1 and M2. So the Mig-35 must be years away from being a real produced fighter. If India selects this fighter today (blank) the Mig-35, it will be 2012 or 2013 before deliveries start. That I think would break ten years to select a 3rd + or 4th generation fighter.

Mig-29SMT is an upgrade to already existing airframe - hence, is much cheaper than Mig-29M1/2 which should be newbly build.

[ROCK45]

Hello Chrom
I totally understand the difference but Algeria has money 5th largest natural producer in the world and has oil too, so money I think isn't an issue. Wouldn't you buy the better aircraft? Wouldn't RSG MIG want to sell the better aircraft? For example do car makers sell older models when new and improved ones are out? To me the Fulcrum is great fighter that's never really been pushed to the edge in combat by well trained personnel and well maintained equipment. It gets a bad rep in combat which it has always been outnumbered. And always against NATO countries support by AWACS, most fighters would lose in situations like that. It climbs faster then a F-15 and has great thrust to, a good thing to have in air to air combat. This is an aircraft that has done very well against NATO types in mock combat by West German's including F-15s. First to have HMS but yet MIG can't seem to upgrade this fine aircraft nor really market it well. Think about it if this isn't a upper management mess up then what is. What more of a selling point do you need besides saying it has beaten F-15,16,and 18s? Sadly Russians own Air Force hasn't bought this fighter and put it through a series of upgrades for example like the F-16. I think that is part of the problem Russia themselves aren't buying this type and buyers like the host countries to use the aircraft too, makes them feel like it's going to be around a while. It seems like Russia's alright with having this fine fighter keep a back seat to the Flanker. India is a perfect example of I hate to say it MIG's failure, here's a country that's already taking what seven or eight plus years to pick a fighter and yet still nothing from MIG? What are they waiting for there going to blow it, this reflects poor leadership and marketing by MIG. This is a great aircraft that's not being presented or produced correctly. Sometimes you have to spend to make and there's what like 15,16 Mig-29 users? Even if MIG would have got only six or seven contracts out of the 15 or 16 users, it would more then paid for itself. As you can tell I like this aircraft.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)

[onslaught]

That's what confusing with this deal why did they go with the less capable model? The Indian's K model had to be on the production line right? It makes me think that the K model Fulcrum is a custom order completely and that Russia isn't in a position to produce the Mig-29M1/M2 even. If production was setup Algeria would have purchased the newer model in the form of the Mig-29 M1 and M2. So the Mig-35 must be years away from being a real produced fighter. If India selects this fighter today (blank) the Mig-35, it will be 2012 or 2013 before deliveries start. That I think would break ten years to select a 3rd + or 4th generation fighter.


First of all, I don't think that the SMT is a less capaple variant. It is a t least at the same level of the M (M2 may be a different story). However, SMT's have gotten more orders than M/M2's especially in the Russian Air Force. Several MiG-29's have already been upgraded to SMT status. Show me why the M/M2 is superior to the SMT and then I'll think that something fishy is going on (actually, several features that were on the M version are on the SMT version). As for the production of the M/M2 versions, you're right; Russia really isn't in the position to produce them. So far, the MiG-35 was just shown at an air show and also for the MRCA competition in India. Chances are, the MiG-35 won't enter service for several years.

[ROCK45]

On the bottom is the M1 and M2 types 9.41/9.47 model where as the SMT are 9.18 Yemen and 9.19 Algeria, there are years between the the two types. To make it harder to follow there is a 'M" in both classes making more difficult to track and understand. I'll put the link on the very bottom of the post hope this helps a little. This is the latest and greatest and the model Algeria should have bought. I don't think they can produce the M1/M2 in numbers nor the Mig-35 anytime soon. It's a shame because the Mig-35 looks like a winner but it should have been out two years ago. From what I've read at different sites Mig-35 being shown at air shows is really a modern Mig-29M. One of the ways to tell the two apart is the SMT only has 6 wing hard points while the M or Indian K has 8 wing hard points. Both the SMT and M/K can carry centerline fuel tank. The M/K boasts a almost 50% increase in fuel which was always a draw back for the Fulcrum range.


INDIAN MIG-29K & MIG-29KUB

* RSK MiG has also scored some success with export sales of new-build MiG-29s, with the Indian Navy obtaining 12 multirole "9-41 MiG-29Ks" to the Indian Navy for use on the carrier ADMIRAL GORSHKOV, which India has purchased from Russia.

The Indian MiG-29K -- here referred to as the "MiG-29KI" for to convenience, though that's not a formal designation -- was not the same as the navalized MiG-29K developed in the late 1980s. The MiG-29KI could be described as a MiG-29SMT with the navalization features of the MiG-29K, such as longer, folding wings; arresting gear; stronger landing gear to handle heavier warloads; eight stores pylons; and RD-33-3M navalized engines, featuring corrosion protection. Both the prototypes for the MiG-29KI were actually modifications of the two MiG-29K prototypes, however.

The MiG-29KI featured folding tailplanes and a folding nose radome to further reduce the aircraft's deck footprint. Production aircraft were to use the new, uprated RD-33-10M turbofan with 4.76 kN (10,500 kgp / 23,150 lbf) thrust. The variant also featured a digital FBW system; N-010 Zhuk-M radar; state-of-the-art Geofizika OLS-M optical-infrared imager and laser targeting system; a modern helmet-mounted sight; radar homing and warning system. The type also was fitted with Indian-specified inertial navigation system, IFF, and countermeasures systems.

Along with the MiG-27KIs, India purchased four two-seat "9-47 MiG-29KUBs" as part of the order, essentially a navalized MiG-29UBT, fitted out in much the same way as the MiG-29KI with folding wings, arresting gear, and so on.

* RSK MiG has promoted land-based counterparts to these Indian Navy variants in the form of the "MiG-29M1" single-seater and "MiG-29M2" two-seater. These machines retain the folding wings of the naval fighters but have some changes in kit. A demonstrator was also flown in 2003 with RD-33MK engines featuring vector-thrust nozzles that could be rotated 15 degrees in any direction.

Full link to above
http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig29.html#m4

[onslaught]

It seems to me that this link says that the SMT and the M versions share a lot in common. Was the M/M2 even up for export what Algeria bought their SMTs? It says that the Russians started producing SMTs instead of M/M2s. Honestly, I still don't see a drastic difference between the two versions...at least with this source. In any case, the Algerians went for the SMT for their own reasons and we may never be certain as to what those reasons were. The Mig-35 is definitely a different story; this is a much newer aircraft. It's just that the upgrade is so radical that it's almost like buying a totally new plane. One question that I've had for a while regards the Su-30MKI's. I've only heard good news about the MKI. Have the Indians had any problems with it? What room for improvement is there?

[Chrom]

Hello Chrom
I totally understand the difference but Algeria has money 5th largest natural producer in the world and has oil too, so money I think isn't an issue. Wouldn't you buy the better aircraft? Wouldn't RSG MIG want to sell the better aircraft? For example do car makers sell older models when new and improved ones are out? To me the Fulcrum is great fighter that's never really been pushed to the edge in combat by well trained personnel and well maintained equipment. It gets a bad rep in combat which it has always been outnumbered. And always against NATO countries support by AWACS, most fighters would lose in situations like that. It climbs faster then a F-15 and has great thrust to, a good thing to have in air to air combat. This is an aircraft that has done very well against NATO types in mock combat by West German's including F-15s. First to have HMS but yet MIG can't seem to upgrade this fine aircraft nor really market it well. Think about it if this isn't a upper management mess up then what is. What more of a selling point do you need besides saying it has beaten F-15,16,and 18s? Sadly Russians own Air Force hasn't bought this fighter and put it through a series of upgrades for example like the F-16. I think that is part of the problem Russia themselves aren't buying this type and buyers like the host countries to use the aircraft too, makes them feel like it's going to be around a while. It seems like Russia's alright with having this fine fighter keep a back seat to the Flanker. India is a perfect example of I hate to say it MIG's failure, here's a country that's already taking what seven or eight plus years to pick a fighter and yet still nothing from MIG? What are they waiting for there going to blow it, this reflects poor leadership and marketing by MIG. This is a great aircraft that's not being presented or produced correctly. Sometimes you have to spend to make and there's what like 15,16 Mig-29 users? Even if MIG would have got only six or seven contracts out of the 15 or 16 users, it would more then paid for itself. As you can tell I like this aircraft.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/a1.gif
:)
It is not about money, it is about "they get exactly what they ordered". Why Mig-29SMT? I can give at least 2 reasons:
1. They are cheaper than Mig-29M1/2
2. They could be delivered much faster than newly build Mig's.

Both these reasons might be quite important no matter how much money Algeria have.

[ROCK45]

Can't remember seeing anything bad written at all about the MKI Flankers only one story.

Su-30 upgrade restricts Indian air force fleet
By Peter Foster
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/05/219046/su-30-upgrade-restricts-indian-air-force-fleet.html

I'm not sure where they stand now maybe somebody has a update.

[ROCK45]

Both good points but I see you don't share my view that RSG MIG could do a little better. That's alright that's what makes these forums fun. Do you know if any other SMT deliveries were made? I'm new so I don't know if were allowed to link to another site because airliners.net has 2 pictures of the what I think is Algeria 9.19 SMT Fulcrum.


http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile

[onslaught]

It's a good thing this hasn't turned into a flaming argument like some other threads have in the past. Although Algeria hasn't bought the MiG-29M/M2, this article says that Syria has, along with some MiG-31s. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's something to look into. As for MiG-29SMT exports, Yemen has some and they say the Syria has some too.

Here's the link for the Syrian MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-31:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF26Ak05.html

[ROCK45]

Hi onslaught
No reason for flaming were allowed to have different views. Chrom made a good point SMT could be delivered sooner. I found out the Algeria deal is a little more complex Algeria owes Russia money from past arms deals which is to be forgotten and some natural gas deal is to worked out. I'm not the person to explain that so ask around or look it up. Tanks, ships, etc is part of this huge deal signed between Russia and Algeria as far as know it's going alright.

The link you attached is old and nothing ever came out of it. A friend of mind from a different forum told me that (5) Mig-31E were on some Russian line being upgraded but nothing ever came of it. As far as I was able to find only two SMT customers so far Yemen and Algeria. Yemen got the 9.18 model thiner spine and Algeria got the 9.19 model thicker spine, thus more fuel. Syria has a number of older Mig-29s but you know I think they owe Russia money too and talk was anything sent to them or sold could be going to Iran. Syria AF to me buying 5 Mig-31E doesn't seem to make sense there are some cool things those huge interceptors could do but better choices could be made. Buying 2 squadrons of new Mig-35 or upgrading what they have would be more useful I think. The Mig-29M1 or M2 has never been produced so Syria couldn't have bought them. The Mig-35 could be a winner for Russia if the AESA radar can be finished and this aircraft gets to market.

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[eaf-f16]

Can't remember seeing anything bad written at all about the MKI Flankers only one story.

Su-30 upgrade restricts Indian air force fleet
By Peter Foster
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/11/05/219046/su-30-upgrade-restricts-indian-air-force-fleet.html

I'm not sure where they stand now maybe somebody has a update.

Thanks for the article.

With its initial batch of 18 Su-30Ks having been retired after less than a decade of use, and licensed production of the Su-30MKI taking place at Hindustan Aeronautics' Nasik facility at a current rate of around 13 a year, standardisation work to around nine early Russian-built MKIs has restricted India's frontline fleet.

Do the Indians fly over 50 hours a month or something?! Why did they get retired?

[ROCK45]

You pick up on that too? It doesn't give a reason for the retirement I just assume more efficient models were coming online? The source of the story is known so it's not some town small time news service I don't know. Maybe somebody here could shed a little light on that issue. My question is are there still Flankers grounded or not flying? It could something very simple to explain this maybe somebody knows and chime in.

[onslaught]

It looks like the Indians will swap the Su-30K's for Su-30MKI's. I guess this could be considered as "retiring" an aircraft.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/05/26/stories/2006052604291300.htm

[ROCK45]

If looks like these are the same Flankers and explains it. It's funny in a way I always think of India of having hundreds of Flankers but really it's a work in progress. A very capable weapons platform for India and other for many years to come. For Russia I always wonder what a aircraft a little larger then a F-15C and a little smaller then an Su-30 would look be like made with lighters metals but still packing those powerful power plants? I guess what I'm saying badly is a Flanker a few tons lighter?

[Chrom]

It's a good thing this hasn't turned into a flaming argument like some other threads have in the past. Although Algeria hasn't bought the MiG-29M/M2, this article says that Syria has, along with some MiG-31s. I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it's something to look into. As for MiG-29SMT exports, Yemen has some and they say the Syria has some too.

Here's the link for the Syrian MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-31:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF26Ak05.html

This is mistake. Possibly there was some talk with Syria but as much as i know no contracts were made. Syria probably have some Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard (i'm not sure here) , but certainly no Mig-29M - here i'm 100% sure.

With Algeria, as much as i understand, it is much more political issue than technical one. May be even purery political issue.

[mysterious]

Chrom: Political issue meaning just a Russo-Algerian bilateral issue or what? I ask this because it seems odd for the Algerians to not get Mig-29s but now they're getting Su-30MKAs.

Aside from that, I havent seen the Phalcon issue come up here so here goes: AFM is reporting that the deliveries of the Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft that Israel is to install the Phalcon system on; have been pushed back by almost a year with the first aircraft to be delivered by Russia in Sept. 2008 instead of early Dec 2007 as was originally planned. The last of the three aircraft will be ready & shipped to Israel for Phalcon installation in August 2010.

[Chrom]

Chrom: Political issue meaning just a Russo-Algerian bilateral issue or what? I ask this because it seems odd for the Algerians to not get Mig-29s but now they're getting Su-30MKAs.

Aside from that, I havent seen the Phalcon issue come up here so here goes: I understood it so: In Algeria different party (party in general sence) came to power. This party have different view on Algeria-Russia and Algeria-France relations, and try to change many agreements.

[ROCK45]

Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft was that a Indian contact? I thought that was canceled and India was going with a pure Russian made? Russia was late delivering Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft and Il-78 tankers to China. There were production problems, cost overruns, and in the end I believe construction to switched to a new location. I found this site which covers what I mention I don't if it's the best source. At least from here you can research further maybe get Russian sources or maybe Chinese sources on this matter.

http://canadadefencesovereignty.blogspot.com/2007/08/chinese-il-76-saga-continues.html

[Chrom]

Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft was that a Indian contact? I thought that was canceled and India was going with a pure Russian made? Russia was late delivering Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft and Il-78 tankers to China. There were production problems, cost overruns, and in the end I believe construction to switched to a new location. I found this site which covers what I mention I don't if it's the best source. At least from here you can research further maybe get Russian sources or maybe Chinese sources on this matter.

http://canadadefencesovereignty.blogspot.com/2007/08/chinese-il-76-saga-continues.html Yes, Chinese Il-76 contract was canceled. The main aircraft plant in ex-USSR republic which supposed to produce aircrafts is nearly dead, and have big problem producing anything. The pure russian-made aircrafts cost much higher so there were no way to fullfill contract at original terms. Not a pretty situation for both Russia and China.

The situation is a result of economical (and political) chaos still found in Ex-USSR republics and Russia after USSR destruction. Basically, any client should understand the cirumstances and always keep in mind such possibilty.

[ROCK45]

mysterious
the Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft that Israel is to install the Phalcon system on

On the above I though India canceled and decided to go pure Russian and leaving out the Israeli's? Some type of AWACS Il-38 upgrade or A-50? Or did India decide on P-3? Maybe India changed there mind or something I seem to remember something about a year back concerning this.

Part-II
I didn't know the Chinese contracts being canceled I thought production was moved to a new location and Russia was taking a huge loss on it. Doesn't Russia have to honor the contracts? Where else is China going to get the transports and tankers?

[Chrom]

Part-II
I didn't know the Chinese contracts being canceled I thought production was moved to a new location and Russia was taking a huge loss on it. Doesn't Russia have to honor the contracts? Where else is China going to get the transports and tankers? Hard to tell. On the one hand, allthought russian side is formally quilty, it cant do much about Uzbekistan plant which is not russian. China have all rights to demand penalties.

On the other hand, for Russia it might be cheaper to just pay penalties and forget the thing alltogether. After all, no way Russia can deliver these aircrafts in time no matter what - so contract is void anyway. But paying penalities will affect Russia-China relations bad way, and both China and Russia dont want it and will not benefit from it. Thats why new conversations are made.

[ROCK45]

I see what you mean now the Uzbekistan plant isn't in Russia. So the fine people of Uzbekistan are at fault here I understand now. Doesn't Russia's own air force used both types? Who produces them now since the Uzbekistan plant is closed or unable to carry out contracts of this manor? I see this has turn political between Russia and China and assume Uzbekistan. I don't follow this part of most arms deals the political side doesn't interests me as much as the arms in question. China and Russia will work this out some how it just seems a waste throwing a very large arms contract. The way China is growing another five or eight years more aircraft would have been needed and maybe a series of current aircraft upgrades and so on. Maybe in that time the Uzbekistan plant can work things out and start producing these fine transport and tanker aircraft.

[Chrom]

I see what you mean now the Uzbekistan plant isn't in Russia. So the fine people of Uzbekistan are at fault here I understand now. Doesn't Russia's own air force used both types?

No, it is not this simple. Russia havent ensured the deliveres. Uzbekistan plant gave impossible promisses. Remember, Tashkent plant is independend sub-contractor, and Russia have little tools to do something if they are refusing/unable to produce aircrafts. Yes, Russia use both aircraft types - but they were produced earler. The repair/modification could be done at russian plants, but all-new production require long preparations and major investments.

Who produces them now since the Uzbekistan plant is closed or unable to carry out contracts of this manor? I see this has turn political between Russia and China and assume Uzbekistan. I don't follow this part of most arms deals the political side doesn't interests me as much as the arms in question. China and Russia will work this out some how it just seems a waste throwing a very large arms contract. The way China is growing another five or eight years more aircraft would have been needed and maybe a series of current aircraft upgrades and so on. Maybe in that time the Uzbekistan plant can work things out and start producing these fine transport and tanker aircraft. There are 2 possibilites: Either Russia/China give a LOT of money and restore production on Tashkent plant, or Russia/China spend a lot of money and build new production line in Russia. Guess what Russian goverment will choose?

[tphuang]

the entire IL-76 situation is a mess. China will not sign another big military deal until the Russians honour their contract. And it hasn't really made a major purchase other than the 50 AL-31FN that they just signed. Which is kind of interesting, because the Russians supposedly lost money on the last batch of 100 AL-31FN they signed. In the end, many companies in the past have taken losses to fulfill existing contracts to maintain market share and maintain good name. If the Russians don't want to play this game of capitalism, they will eventually loose contracts to this. All I can say is that China will not buy anything Russian as long as IL-76 situation remains unsolved, so either the Russians budge or they can loose the Chinese market completely.

[Chrom]

the entire IL-76 situation is a mess. China will not sign another big military deal until the Russians honour their contract. And it hasn't really made a major purchase other than the 50 AL-31FN that they just signed. Which is kind of interesting, because the Russians supposedly lost money on the last batch of 100 AL-31FN they signed. In the end, many companies in the past have taken losses to fulfill existing contracts to maintain market share and maintain good name. If the Russians don't want to play this game of capitalism, they will eventually loose contracts to this. All I can say is that China will not buy anything Russian as long as IL-76 situation remains unsolved, so either the Russians budge or they can loose the Chinese market completely.
All i can say - for such big contracts politic always play major role, and any country can cancel/refuse any contract if it is in they interests. The prime example here being various USA or EU sanctions which affect existing contracts. Ofc China wants IL-76 for very low price... but the train already gone. Again, i'm sure everyone can find such examples about canceled contracts for any country and any "good name".

[ROCK45]

I wonder if a Europen aircraft maker could slip in and grab the market? It just seems wrong that Russia wouldn't take on a venture like this? China is expanding into so many regions that long range transport and cargo aircraft are a must. I could see this as a money maker for years to come but I guess the up front money needed to setup the production lines is too high.

[Chrom]

I wonder if a Europen aircraft maker could slip in and grab the market? It just seems wrong that Russia wouldn't take on a venture like this? China is expanding into so many regions that long range transport and cargo aircraft are a must. I could see this as a money maker for years to come but I guess the up front money needed to setup the production lines is too high.
Sure EU maker can slip & grab. But EU maker is also subject to various sanctions and "considerations" to higher degree. So, addidionaly of being much, much more expencive - it is also no more trustworthy than russians...

Btw, EU/USA aircrafts makers already grabbed a huge chunk of chinese civil aircraft market - this was result of USSR destruction and degradation of civil aircraft production.

[kams]

Chrom: Political issue meaning just a Russo-Algerian bilateral issue or what? I ask this because it seems odd for the Algerians to not get Mig-29s but now they're getting Su-30MKAs.

Aside from that, I havent seen the Phalcon issue come up here so here goes: AFM is reporting that the deliveries of the Ilyushin Il-76MD aircraft that Israel is to install the Phalcon system on; have been pushed back by almost a year with the first aircraft to be delivered by Russia in Sept. 2008 instead of early Dec 2007 as was originally planned. The last of the three aircraft will be ready & shipped to Israel for Phalcon installation in August 2010.


AFM got that wrong. The first modified A-50Ehi was flight tested in Taganrong by Beriev in Nov 2007 was to be delivered to Israel in Dec 2007.

[ROCK45]

I'm looking for the latest information on India's new Mig-29Ks and if there happy with them overall? When deliveries are finished won't the K model Fulcrums be the most advance in the world?

[Chrom]

Btw, seems Algeria officially returned 15 MIG-29SMT back. Reasons are unknown, russians claim political, Algeria also calmly technical. There are rumors about exchanging them for MIG-29M2 for additional 10-15 mil $$ each.

[ROCK45]

This rumor makes sense should have order the Mig-29M2 or the single seat version in the first place. I wonder if it was a production line issue India's K models should be about finished right? Either way I'm happy for Mig and since India is dragging it's feet Mig may slip in a finish or semi finish model Fulcrum and steal the show. Thanks Chrom this is good rumor I mean news.
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I found this link
http://www.kommersant.com/p854040/r_528/military_hardware_foreign_relations/