Greece to upgrade its S-300s to S-400s

[angelo]

Greece and Russia have agreed to upgrade Greece is S-300 systems to S-400

With this upgrade Greece will have a range of 400km,we will be able to detect stealth

fighters,and intercept incoming balistic missiles.

[mysterious]

And your information is derived from where? What are your personal thoughts & views regarding this development provided that you substantiate it first?

[eaf-f16]

Greece and Russia have agreed to upgrade Greece is S-300 systems to S-400

With this upgrade Greece will have a range of 400km,we will be able to detect stealth

fighters,and intercept incoming balistic missiles.

Can I have a source for this?

IMO, they should becuase Israel is real cozy with Turkey and IAI just found a way on how to fool the S-300's radar with a decoy but even then it's still hard to beat.

[dk706]

where did you find this Info? I tried to crosscheck it with a lot of Greek news sources and i came up with nothing.

Can indeed the S-300 be updated to S-400 or are they 2 drastically different systems?

[angelo]

I cant post links until 15 posts and more.The best i can do for now is this

translated artical.

And typically in Greece missiles S-300

Emerged and made S-400


The feeble Russian anti-missile system S-300 PMU1, after almost eight years, emerges from the kasonia which is stored in Crete and is fully operational planning of the Greek Armed Forces. Reliable sources of the "O" indicates that the Minister of National Defense Evangelos Meimarakis, yesterday informed both the president Papadopoulos, and the defense minister Pasiardi Christodoulou, for the decisions taken in Athens, and which, in addition to activation of the system , and include upgrade to S-400. This means that it will be able to destroy naval aircraft Stealth technology, Cruz missiles and ballistic missiles, range 3,500 km And speed of 4.8 kilometers The second. Also, can be hitting targets in height from 10 meters to 50 kilometers. It is obvious that after the upgrade largely covered Cyprus and the route that will be able to use the Greek aircraft on flights to and from Cyprus. The agreement to upgrade the missiles has taken at the highest political level, between President Putin and Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis.

[Chrom]

Interesting. I was almost sure S-400 would be non-exportable for next 5-6 years.

[onslaught]

Maybe not 5-6 yrs but probably not soon. The S-400 has just been deployed and the still need to work out any small problems they find with the system. Even though the system has been in development for a long time, there's probably still going to be some problems they haven't found yet. Once that happens, then they will start exporting. Since the S-400 just got deployed, it may take a couple years before S-400 goes on the market.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070806/70416533.html

[skywalker1901]

Has the system been proven? Any advanced radar can see stealth, it's a matter of ranch. Different size rcs will be detected at different ranges.
It comes down to weather the steatlh aircraft will be detected before it gets within range of its weapons.

[onslaught]

There were tests in 1999 but any weapons system goes through tests. But the only way to really "prove" a system is to put in a a real combat situation. Nobody knows when that will come. For now, the S-400 is very deadly on paper but we can only wait for a conflict to see what kind of punch the S-400 really packs.

[ROCK45]

skywalker1901 Has the system been proven? Any advanced radar can see stealth, it's a matter of ranch. Different size rcs will be detected at different ranges.
It comes down to weather the steatlh aircraft will be detected before it gets within range of its weapons.

skywalk1901 that's a pretty big statement the United States spent billions of dollars on stealth and any advance radar can see it. Can you explain that or support it with a link? I'll be willing to read it thanks

[Aussie Digger]

skywalk1901 that's a pretty big statement the United States spent billions of dollars on stealth and any advance radar can see it. Can you explain that or support it with a link? I'll be willing to read it thanks

Stealth aircraft are not invisible to radar systems. LO treatments, shaping etc reduce the range at which an LO aircraft can be detected and more significantly reduce the range at which an LO platform can be targetted, but I've never read of any design feature that makes ANY aircraft invisible to a radar system.

The effect that LO is intending to produce is to allow an aircraft to get within weapons range of it's target, before it can be engaged similarly.

Fly an F-22 or a B-2 close enough to an AEGIS radar system for instance and they WILL be detected and most likely tracked. Of course the operator would never do this, employing tactics and flight profiles to maximise THEIR advantage and minimise the advantages the defending radar system etc has.

[eaf-f16]

skywalk1901 that's a pretty big statement the United States spent billions of dollars on stealth and any advance radar can see it. Can you explain that or support it with a link? I'll be willing to read it thanks

I don't think he was stating that there is a radar system that can detect US stealth aircraft at sufficient range to shoot it down before it can launch it's weapons. I think he was just stating the fact that any aircraft can be detected on radar it just differs in range and asking whether or not it's been proven that Russia's S-400 system can detect, track and shoot down stealth aircraft before getting in weapons range.

[Chrom]

I don't think he was stating that there is a radar system that can detect US stealth aircraft at sufficient range to shoot it down before it can launch it's weapons. I think he was just stating the fact that any aircraft can be detected on radar it just differs in range and asking whether or not it's been proven that Russia's S-400 system can detect, track and shoot down stealth aircraft before getting in weapons range.

We dont even know true F-22 RCS, let alone S-300/S-400 capabilities in that regard. Russians (non-officially) claim they can. Americans (also non-officialy) claim noone can. Believe whom you wish.

[Petros]

Now, thant 's very important development. Not only from the tactical point of view and the new (outstanding) operationaly possibilities it opens up for Greece, but most important because of the apparent climax of Greek - Russian strategic/military partnership. I want to remind that after a long period of quiescence in greek military purchases the first and - as it seems - the second most important purchase, concerns Russian systems.

[ROCK45]

Besides S-300 what else does Greece buy from Russia? I guess being in NATO Greece wouldn't buy Russian fighters? I remember somewhere reading where Greece were looking for fighters imagine Su-30/35 Flankers in Greece color's? I know Greece only buys American and French aircraft.http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
:D

[Petros]

Besides S-300 what else does Greece buy from Russia? I guess being in NATO Greece wouldn't buy Russian fighters? I remember somewhere reading where Greece were looking for fighters imagine Su-30/35 Flankers in Greece color's? I know Greece only buys American and French aircraft
:D

Recently was decided to buy about 490 BMP-3M/F to replace the BMP-1 (where I was refering to... )

Greece is a major user of varius Rusian systems. Here is a list of some:
S-300PMU-1, TOR-M1, 9K33M3 Osa-AKM,Kornet, Fagot, ZUBRs, and many others
There are also thoughts (if not decisions) of purchacing the Be-200 multipurpose amphibious aircraft and possibly BTR-90s 8x8 Armored Personnel Carriers

do you need more?

[ROCK45]

Thanks Petros I don't need more. A little surprise I didn't really know Greece bought that much Russian gear.

[Chrom]

For anyone wondering why Greece buy so much russian equipment: as with most large weapon purchases it is due to political issues.

There were several major scandals in Greece recently involving CIA (or just USA) including spying in major Greece telefon network, some suspected assasinations of greece politicans and businessmans, etc. Greece also got major screwup in internal politic due to Kosovo war (with albanian separatists in Macedonia) . Greece got some problem due to USA backing up Turkey over Cyprus conflict due to needed support in Iran/Iraq affairs. This is not complete list, but you should get the idea why Greece aquire russian weapon.

As basically Greece is part of NATO, and all Greece possible "enemies" are also part of NATO, i pretty much doubt Greece will go to war any time soon. Therefore, Greece dont need absolutely best or best value/capabilities weapon. Every major purchase there carry strong political message.

[balamir]

. This is not complete list, but you should get the idea why Greece aquire russian weapon.


I doubt that is the reason, as Greece could have gone to European manufacturers. I would say the main reason is the price (except ZUBR and S-300, as the former is a must for rapid support to islands and its alternative is smaller american lcac not that much suitable for the task, and the later was technically not a greek one but had to be transfered from cyprus due to harsh Turkish response)

Of course, making russians happy for future support is a nice bonus.

[Chrom]

I doubt that is the reason, as Greece could have gone to European manufacturers. I would say the main reason is the price (except ZUBR and S-300, as the former is a must for rapid support to islands and its alternative is smaller american lcac not that much suitable for the task, and the later was technically not a greek one but had to be transfered from cyprus due to harsh Turkish response)

Of course, making russians happy for future support is a nice bonus.

EU was major part of these screwups, silently supporting (or just knowing and not countering) USA affairs.

Ofc i dont imply russian equipment is bad/worse - just what it mostly have to to with politic.

[beleg]

What i read on various forums Greece is buying S-400 not upgrading their systems.

[Petros]

[...]Greece also got major screwup in internal politic due to Kosovo war (with albanian separatists in Macedonia) [...]

No such screw up in Greece! The Albanian separatists are in Tetovo, not in Macedonia (i.e. Northern Greece) but in FYROM (Former Yougoslavic Rep. of Macedonia). That means a different country ;)


I agree that the decisions were mostly poitical. Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis, was the only western leader that congratulated Putin after his recent elections victory!

But don't forget, when we talk about weapon systems, all the decisions are political. For example every NATO country has mostly American - Western systems, not because they are better but becouse they are Western! :)

[Chrom]

No such screw up in Greece! The Albanian separatists are in Tetovo, not in Macedonia (ex. Northern Greece) but in FYROM (Former Yougoslavic Rep. of Macedonia). That means a different country ;)

! :) There are some problems with albanian separtists in Greece. F.e. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/mar2001/mac-m10.shtml

[Petros]

There are some problems with albanian separtists in Greece. F.e.

No! I live in Greece, in Macedonia. You have been confused because the article (hence the problems as well) is refering to the country north of Greece that is misnamed "Macedonia" but is known as Scopia or FYROM (temporary UN. name). More about the Name issue read here (Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs):

old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/europe_southeastern/balkans/fyrom_name.html

[Chrom]

No! I live in Greece, in Macedonia. You have been confused because the article (hence the problems as well) is refering to the country north of Greece that is misnamed "Macedonia" but is known as Scopia or FYROM (temporary UN. name). More about the Name issue read here (Hellenic Ministry of Foreign Affairs):

old.mfa.gr/english/foreign_policy/europe_southeastern/balkans/fyrom_name.html

But, isnt Greece concerned with such problem? Or there is absolutely no problems with albanians in Greece?
Another question: Isnt Greece concerned with what happens in Macedonia (foreign one i mean)?

[Izzy1]

I'll back Chrom on this one.

[JackGr]

But, isnt Greece concerned with such problem? Or there is absolutely no problems with albanians in Greece?
Another question: Isnt Greece concerned with what happens in Macedonia (foreign one i mean)?


We are concerned about stealing our name,so in case NATO invites them with this name,a veto is a probably response from Greece,that's what is heard in news,and that's what the biggest part of citizens want.I won't say more cause the topic is going to be a political one :P

[Petros]

But, isnt Greece concerned with such problem? Or there is absolutely no problems with albanians in Greece?
Another question: Isnt Greece concerned with what happens in Macedonia (foreign one i mean)?

We are very concerned but as a problem of a foreign neighbour country. Albanians are the one major destabilization factor in the Region (Turks is the other...). Further analysis is out of the thread's topic I think ;)

[Viktor]

What i read on various forums Greece is buying S-400 not upgrading their systems.

Perhaps for replacing Patriot system.

[nero]

Perhaps for replacing Patriot system.

does that mean that the S-400 is more advanced than the patriot ???

i am not talking about range here,just accuracy

.

[Chrom]

does that mean that the S-400 is more advanced than the patriot ???

i am not talking about range here,just accuracy

.
Yes. Allthought hard to prove. But basically S-400 have much more powerfull radar network (there are 2-3 completely different wavelengts radars in each battery), and have ABM capability. S-200/S-300/S-400 line is just unmatched in the West and is order of magnitude better than any counterporary SAM's.

Noone can be best at everything, and particulary USA concentrated in other areas.

[eaf-f16]

does that mean that the S-400 is more advanced than the patriot ???

i am not talking about range here,just accuracy

.

The S-400 just entered service a few months ago and the PAC-3 was used in OIF with successful results. The PAC-3 has alot less bugs to work out than the S-400 does. The Russian Air Force is still working out the kinks for the S-400 (which I'm assuming are abundant, considering it just entered service) so that they can begin to export it.

But I think that as far capability goes, the S-400 is a generation ahead of the PAC-3 in most, if not all, aspects.

By the way, the second Russian S-400 regiment should be entering service this year.

[Chrom]

The S-400 just entered service a few months ago and the PAC-3 was used in OIF with successful results. The PAC-3 has alot less bugs to work out than the S-400 does. The Russian Air Force is still working out the kinks for the S-400 (which I'm assuming are abundant, considering it just entered service) so that they can begin to export it.

But I think that as far capability goes, the S-400 is a generation ahead of the PAC-3 in most, if not all, aspects.

By the way, the second Russian S-400 regiment should be entering service this year.

PAC-3 is barery comparable with upgraded S-300PMU/PMU2 - which are basically end 80x - beginning 90x tech. S-400 is just another class - not comparable with PAC-3.

[ROCK45]

Can Ii ask why does the S-400 have to more advance the a PAC-3? Russia doesn't even have a operational ASEA radar, nor stealth, most of there tech is a little behind the United States in places how did it leap over the United States in this area? The current Patriot isn't the same Gulf War-I model how could a brand new hardly tested and operational missile system be better the a PAC-3C so soon?

Chrom
Yes. Allthought hard to prove. But basically S-400 have much more powerfull radar network (there are 2-3 completely different wavelengts radars in each battery), and have ABM capability. S-200/S-300/S-400 line is just unmatched in the West and is order of magnitude better than any counterporary SAM's.

Chrom not to be difficult but I think that's big statement you made above and to prove. The US makes good radar's, American radar's on our aircraft and ships are better why wouldn't out SAM's not be the same? Russia can't even produce all the systems on a MKI Flanker how can you say "it's unmatched in the west" I don't get it? Doesn't sound logical to me American and European radar's and tech (England & France ) is rated above Russian in most case how does the S-400 have the best radar? Are there papers written on this, studies made comparing the the two? Are there tech companies comparing these from different countries? Is there something I can read or prove to me nothing compares to an S-400 in the west, and that its better then a modern Patriot? I do agree no SAM shoots down every aircraft, missile or rocket and that there flaws. If you can explain thanks

[beleg]

The brutal effectiveness of PAC3 in shooting down allied aircraft in Op Iraqi Freedom scares me to death about abilities of S-400 :\ ...

[Chrom]

Can Ii ask why does the S-400 have to more advance the a PAC-3? Russia doesn't even have a operational ASEA radar, nor stealth, most of there tech is a little behind the United States in places how did it leap over the United States in this area? The current Patriot isn't the same Gulf War-I model how could a brand new hardly tested and operational missile system be better the a PAC-3C so soon?



Chrom not to be difficult but I think that's big statement you made above and to prove. The US makes good radar's, American radar's on our aircraft and ships are better why wouldn't out SAM's not be the same? Russia can't even produce all the systems on a MKI Flanker how can you say "it's unmatched in the west" I don't get it? Doesn't sound logical to me American and European radar's and tech (England & France ) is rated above Russian in most case how does the S-400 have the best radar? Are there papers written on this, studies made comparing the the two? Are there tech companies comparing these from different countries? Is there something I can read or prove to me nothing compares to an S-400 in the west, and that its better then a modern Patriot? I do agree no SAM shoots down every aircraft, missile or rocket and that there flaws. If you can explain thanks
Russia can produce absolutely all systems for MKI flanker. May be some systems will be somewhat worse or just unusual for e.g. India - but neverless. As for radar - there are some areas where Russia stillhave state-of-the art electronic second to none - high-freq phase shifters for example.
I think noone will argue here total superiority of S-200/S-300/S-300PMU against counterporary SAM's - both western SAM's capabilities and old S-xx series capabilities are known to enouth degree to judge.
S-400 is much more tricky - it is too new. But open sources suggested superior system too - just becouse it is much more complex, much more powerfull and more all-around system than PAC-3.

The range, the speed of missiles, the ABM ability, the number of targets fired at, the VLS start, mobility, multiple radar systems belonging to S-300/S-400 installation - all this have no equivalent in Patriot. And however you prise EU electronic - they didnt managed to produce anything comparable to even Patriot.

Different priorities, different mindset, different resources spend.

[Chrom]

Can Ii ask why does the S-400 have to more advance the a PAC-3? Russia doesn't even have a operational ASEA radar, nor stealth, most of there tech is a little behind the United States in places how did it leap over the United States in this area? The current Patriot isn't the same Gulf War-I model how could a brand new hardly tested and operational missile system be better the a PAC-3C so soon?
Becouse USA didnt spend 10x as much on development of PAC-3 vs S-300/S-400 as in case of F-22. Current patriot missiles for all we know barery managed to reach S-300PMU level, if that.



Chrom not to be difficult but I think that's big statement you made above and to prove. The US makes good radar's, American radar's on our aircraft and ships are better why wouldn't out SAM's not be the same? Russia can't even produce all the systems on a MKI Flanker how can you say "it's unmatched in the west" I don't get it? Doesn't sound logical to me American and European radar's and tech (England & France ) is rated above Russian in most case how does the S-400 have the best radar? Are there papers written on this, studies made comparing the the two? Are there tech companies comparing these from different countries? Is there something I can read or prove to me nothing compares to an S-400 in the west, and that its better then a modern Patriot? I do agree no SAM shoots down every aircraft, missile or rocket and that there flaws. If you can explain thanks 3x range is not enouth? ABM ability is not enouth (that alone suggest better radar->missile system)? Higher mobility and abilty to shot ANY direction without moving - not enouth? Higher aquision range (as result of longer ranged missiles) - not enouth?

As for radar technology - yes, russian got a bit behined in fighters AESA. But keep in mind, they was AHEAD in fighters PESA, and were always at least as developed in land-based big AESA radars like new EW radars.

Again, EU fighter (not even tell about other) radars are rated better by who? I mean EF Captor is not even reached 30-years old Mig-31 Zaslon level - it is still mechanical!! New Rafale radar is at most comparable to Su-xx PESA line .... So where are these superior EU radars? On paper? You know, Russia have also great thing on paper....

P.S. It is not the questioin if USA could produce something better than S-300/S-400. Probably yes, could. IF spend 10x times as much money on development and setting different priorities.

[eaf-f16]

Can Ii ask why does the S-400 have to more advance the a PAC-3? Russia doesn't even have a operational ASEA radar, nor stealth, most of there tech is a little behind the United States in places how did it leap over the United States in this area? The current Patriot isn't the same Gulf War-I model how could a brand new hardly tested and operational missile system be better the a PAC-3C so soon?



Chrom not to be difficult but I think that's big statement you made above and to prove. The US makes good radar's, American radar's on our aircraft and ships are better why wouldn't out SAM's not be the same? Russia can't even produce all the systems on a MKI Flanker how can you say "it's unmatched in the west" I don't get it? Doesn't sound logical to me American and European radar's and tech (England & France ) is rated above Russian in most case how does the S-400 have the best radar? Are there papers written on this, studies made comparing the the two? Are there tech companies comparing these from different countries? Is there something I can read or prove to me nothing compares to an S-400 in the west, and that its better then a modern Patriot? I do agree no SAM shoots down every aircraft, missile or rocket and that there flaws. If you can explain thanks

The S-400 can engage targets flying as low as 10 meters off the ground, the Patriot engages targets only starting from 60 meters. The mobile variant of the S-400 takes only 5 minutes to deploy and Patriot systems take 1.5 hours. IIRC, The S-400 has range twice that of the PAC-3 and can engage Airborne Early Warning Aircraft, stealth targets and jamming aircraft with it's home-on-jam capability and also has an "over-the-horizon" capability.

Video

This is just compilation of information I already know and learned from this video.

There are plenty of Western websites that all practically say the same thing, that the S-400 capabilities overshadow those of any competing Western system. I'm sure you'll find them if you look for them.

By the way, about the radars of Russian fighters, the Irbis-E is supposed to be the best in the world with the longest detection range.

[ROCK45]

Thanks you it's a very interesting clip and I learned a lot from it looks like a fine SAM system. I'll hold off and wait see the finished product producted fielded and operational.

The radar on the 30 year old Mig-31 might have long detection against bomber size aircraft I'll give you that. The Mig-31 as a weapons platform has lived past it's time there won't be waves of slow moving B-52s flying formations for them to be useful. I wonder how 30 year old radar's hold up in modern combat.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink

[Chrom]

By the way, about the radars of Russian fighters, the Irbis-E is supposed to be the best in the world with the longest detection range.
Really, i cant call Irbis "best in the world" - being PESA instead of AESA. Detection range is great - but there are other things to consider here once we starts to talk about the "best".

[Atilla [TR]]

Well this system will make the stealth on the Turkish F-35 useless!! Ahh whatever I do not believe this because Russia would not give this away to a NATO ally, NATO can copy this and make it even better.

[eaf-f16]

Really, i cant call Irbis "best in the world" - being PESA instead of AESA. Detection range is great - but there are other things to consider here once we starts to talk about the "best".

I meant in range.

;130470']Well this system will make the stealth on the Turkish F-35 useless!! Ahh whatever I do not believe this because Russia would not give this away to a NATO ally, NATO can copy this and make it even better.

As I understand it, Americans have held up spare parts to the Greeks before claiming various reasons like port workers on strike and so on. Aside from the fact that in the field of SAM's the Russian systems are the best money can buy, I think the Greeks buy Russian SAM's because the Russians won't hold up spare parts on them and politically speaking the Russians could care less about what's going on between Turkey and Greece. If anything, they'd back the Greeks becuase the Greeks are ethnic Slavs.

And the US doesn't need Greece to get its hands on Russian SAM's. IIRC, a while back the US bought the S-300PMU1 from Belarus. The Israelis got an incomplete S-300PMU1 from Croatia to develop a towed decoy system to fool it.

[beleg]

You will anger our Greek friends by calling them Slavs :) Greeks are not Slavs , the only thing they have in common with Russians is their religion.

[eaf-f16]

You will anger our Greek friends by calling them Slavs :) Greeks are not Slavs , the only thing they have in common with Russians is their religion.

Really?:confused:

Honest mistake then :). But I always thought that they were Slavs because of their stance on the Kosovo issue.

[Petros]

Really?:confused:

Honest mistake then :). But I always thought that they were Slavs because of their stance on the Kosovo issue.

Come on! Greeks are Greeks! Recall the ancient Greece? Spartans, Athineans, Cretans, Korinthians, Arkadians, Macedonians? The birth of Democracy, Science, Mathematics, Medicine, Philosophy etc. :p:

there are different opinions about Kosovo. Not only from Serbs and Russians! Greece has many reasons to argue about Kosovo's final state.

[ROCK45]

eaf-f16
Aside from the fact that in the field of SAM's the Russian systems are the best money can buy,

I think all SAM systems have flaws or can be beaten just look at Syria or really any war in the last 10/15 years and your see Russian SAMs are beatable. A lot of the ways SAMs are beaten will not be released to the public. Syria has the Thor which is a pretty modern system yet did little I don't think it's a exact science yet.

[Chrom]

I think all SAM systems have flaws or can be beaten just look at Syria or really any war in the last 10/15 years and your see Russian SAMs are beatable. A lot of the ways SAMs are beaten will not be released to the public. Syria has the Thor which is a pretty modern system yet did little I don't think it's a exact science yet.
Everything can be beaten given enouth resources and time. SAM's are not exception here of course. They are just very good at they job - defending ground.

[Atilla [TR]]

Actually Greeks are Slavic. Look at there languages.

[ROCK45]

It's a little off topic but was mention in a earlier post I found this article concerning Russia AF may or will use French system on Russian aircraft, a first.

Russian fighters to use Thales Damocles targeting pods
By Vladimir Karnozov

Russia will license-produce the Thales Damocles reconnaissance and target designation pod for its air force strike aircraft, following successful tests of the system with Malaysia's Sukhoi Su-30MKM multirole fighter.

Made late last year, the decision will see Damocles become the first piece of Western equipment approved for integration with Russia's combat aircraft, and the first to be produced locally under an official licence with the system's developer.

Comparative trials involving Damocles and the Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant (UOMZ)-produced Sapsan and Solux targeting pods went in favour of the French design.

UOMZ received production approval from Thales in late 2007 and will now assemble a customised version of the system for the Russian market using locally written software. However, the company will also continue to refine its Sapsan system to pursue future sales to Russia and potential export users.

Full story
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/16/220747/russian-fighters-to-use-thales-damocles-targeting-pods.html

[Chrom]

It's a little off topic but was mention in a earlier post I found this article concerning Russia AF may or will use French system on Russian aircraft, a first.
future sales to Russia and potential export users.

Full story
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/16/220747/russian-fighters-to-use-thales-damocles-targeting-pods.html
Long needed move. After all, every other country use foreign systems - so Russia better also start use ones. Noone can be best at everything - and Russia is do not even have USSR resources.

[eaf-f16]

It's a little off topic but was mention in a earlier post I found this article concerning Russia AF may or will use French system on Russian aircraft, a first.

Russian fighters to use Thales Damocles targeting pods
By Vladimir Karnozov

Russia will license-produce the Thales Damocles reconnaissance and target designation pod for its air force strike aircraft, following successful tests of the system with Malaysia's Sukhoi Su-30MKM multirole fighter.

Made late last year, the decision will see Damocles become the first piece of Western equipment approved for integration with Russia's combat aircraft, and the first to be produced locally under an official licence with the system's developer.

Comparative trials involving Damocles and the Ural Optical and Mechanical Plant (UOMZ)-produced Sapsan and Solux targeting pods went in favour of the French design.

UOMZ received production approval from Thales in late 2007 and will now assemble a customised version of the system for the Russian market using locally written software. However, the company will also continue to refine its Sapsan system to pursue future sales to Russia and potential export users.

Full story
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/16/220747/russian-fighters-to-use-thales-damocles-targeting-pods.html

Yes I saw that too. I thought it meant that they were going to use them for foreign aircraft sales becuase I couldn't believe that the Russian Air Force was going to use foreign parts on their own planes. :D

I wonder if Russia got the right to export their own "customized" version of the Damocles pod.:unknown

[ROCK45]

The Damocles targeting pod must be good it's rare for most countries to use outside systems but it is done. The US Coast Guard uses French helicopters right I'm sure done. I thought Russia had a "Cold War" law that stated only Russian made products or equipment can be used on Russian aircraft? I wanted to know if this is true or is my friend breaking my chops? Does anybody know, thankshttp://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Talking

[Chrom]

The Damocles targeting pod must be good it's rare for most countries to use outside systems but it is done. The US Coast Guard uses French helicopters right I'm sure done. I thought Russia had a "Cold War" law that stated only Russian made products or equipment can be used on Russian aircraft? I wanted to know if this is true or is my friend breaking my chops? Does anybody know, thankshttp://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Talking

This was true with note aside - only WarPac products or equipment can be used on USSR military equipment. Russian military kinda inhereted that law, but several years ago it was soften to some degree. Looks like russian generals started to realise there will be no USSR comeback (in industrial sence) - so they allowed foreign components from selected suppliers in case-by-case basis.

France look as prime partner here due to obvious reasons.
I know 2 large cases: France TI in russian army, and this pod. There were some smaller, more isolated things also.

[Viktor]

does that mean that the S-400 is more advanced than the patriot ???

i am not talking about range here,just accuracy

.


Pac-3 has in comparison with S-400 mutch less capable radar, its missiles beside mutch less range can only handle balistic missiles with the range of up to 1000km while Mach 14 40N6 missile of the S-400 system flying 400km in distance and 185km in height can handle balistic missiles with the range of 3500km.

It has other missiles like 9M96M witch incorporates hit-to-kill tehnology... all Russian missiles have superior manervability ... list goes on

[Viktor]

Thanks you it's a very interesting clip and I learned a lot from it looks like a fine SAM system. I'll hold off and wait see the finished product producted fielded and operational.

The radar on the 30 year old Mig-31 might have long detection against bomber size aircraft I'll give you that. The Mig-31 as a weapons platform has lived past it's time there won't be waves of slow moving B-52s flying formations for them to be useful. I wonder how 30 year old radar's hold up in modern combat.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink


Mig-31 is the second most potent fighter in the world for BVR fight right after F-22.

All MIG-31B are now passing throw modernization called Mig-31M2 and are getting mutch advanced radar combination of tehnologies based on zaslon and Irbis tehnologies. It can carry BVR missiles ... 6 300km supermanuravable R-37M and 4 R-77... Its kinematics in air is more amasing than those of the raptor.

It can cruise at Mach 2.35 for 1500km ... witch can not Raptor achive not in speed not in range ... its max speed of Mach 3 is mutch higher than those of the Raptor and its max flying atitude is also higher ... with missiles ranged 300km what do you do .... It can also carry R-33S SARH 215km range ... you wont know its there until it hits you ...


MIG-31 is most potent Russian BVR fighter..interceptor and worlds second...


No matter its hudge RCS no missile has range no atitude no speed to catch it ... I bet Aim-120 ha about 10km range when it comes to MIG-31 in chase and on atitude and no planes gona get so close with 10 BVR missiles and such speed

[Grand Danois]

Pac-3 has in comparison with S-400 mutch less capable radar, its missiles beside mutch less range can only handle balistic missiles with the range of up to 1000km while Mach 14 40N6 missile of the S-400 system flying 400km in distance and 185km in height can handle balistic missiles with the range of 3500km.

It has other missiles like 9M96M witch incorporates hit-to-kill tehnology... all Russian missiles have superior manervability ... list goes on

Nonetheless, it seems that when legacy Patriots are used as targets (PAAT) they have a much longer range (e.g. 600+ km?). That is when fired in a ballistic trajectory. Is the 400 km range for the S-400 given as the ballistic range?

"Neighbour space" (near space) means somewhere between 25-100km altitude, not 185km.

[Viktor]

Nonetheless, it seems that when legacy Patriots are used as targets (PAAT) they have a much longer range (e.g. 600+ km?). That is when fired in a ballistic trajectory. Is the 400 km range for the S-400 given as the ballistic range?

"Neighbour space" (near space) means somewhere between 25-100km altitude, not 185km.

nope thats not balistic range but its effective range in witch missile has enought power to close in for the kill.

40N6 was at first suposed to have near space atitude but Russians decided they need something to counter THAAD and 40N6 introduction in operational service was delayed for several years because of thiese new requirements. Even now operational regiment of S-400 system near Moscow does not have 40N6 missile in operation and wont have for some time ... at the moment it uses 300 km 48N6DM missile from S-300PMU2 system and operational service for 40N6 is expected at the end of 2008 or 2009 year.

As for S-400 same for THAAD its missiles have performance to shoot down even ICBM its only question of theirs radar being incapable to detect warheads and react promptly for that reason Russia tested S-400M Samodrzecs witch was comprising of S-300PMU2 and S-300V missiles hooked to EW network to recive accurate data on time so missiles can be lounched in time ....system is also being able to recive date form other tactical platforms ... S-400M is only bases for mutch bigger project S-500 witch will make core of Russian national missile defence system.

[Grand Danois]

nope thats not balistic range but its effective range in witch missile has enought power to close in for the kill.

40N6 was at first suposed to have near space atitude but Russians decided they need something to counter THAAD and 40N6 introduction in operational service was delayed for several years because of thiese new requirements. Even now operational regiment of S-400 system near Moscow does not have 40N6 missile in operation and wont have for some time ... at the moment it uses 300 km 48N6DM missile from S-300PMU2 system and operational service for 40N6 is expected at the end of 2008 or 2009 year.

400 km should be possible. I have my doubts on the altitude though. ;)

Btw, at 400 km, how does the radar detect jets flying below 7 km?

[Viktor]

400 km should be possible. I have my doubts on the altitude though. ;)

Btw, at 400 km, how does the radar detect jets flying below 7 km?

Such things offcourse depend on terrain witch can influence detection range at such distances greatly so carreful planing is require.

But generaly Russians have developt 76N6 Clam Shell radar for detection on low atitudes. Can be extended to 40m height.

[ROCK45]

Can the Mig-31 launch missiles at those high speeds? And are the missiles you mentioned with those 300k ranges even in production yet? Viktor this modernization seems ongoing and not a finished product? Not to bash the Mig-31 but is there funding for this? It's a huge heavy aircraft built on a 30year old design that can be seen on radar from very far distances . Sure it can fly fast and straight but in modern combat this aircraft is dated. Its difficult for missiles to hit a fighter size aircraft from 100 miles away doesn't seem odd that Russia would state such long ranges? Russia would be better served by standardization huge Flankers fleets for this purpose it would save on training, equipment, parts, weapons, kind of the way the US uses there F-16, I realize a Mig-31 and a Viper aren't in the same class I'm just using it as an example. By using Flankers even different models would allow Russia Air Force to get better because a more standard level of training could be used across the board.

It can cruise at Mach 2.35 for 1500km? Russia only puts these wonder engines in old Mig-31s, it doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't Russia use some of the this "high tech" on modern Flankers if some of the numbers you quoted real? Wouldn't have China requested these wonder Mig-31s to go far out and strike US carries or build some of the tech into there Flankers for the same purpose? It would serve Russia better building tech like this into a modern air frame like the Su-34 type and not 30 year old aviation fuel haulers that can only fly fast and straight. High end Flankers have powerful radar's and can carry what 10, 11, or maybe 12 missiles seems like a perfect interceptor to me and can fight and turn if they have too. I think it's old thinking and Russia could do better then maintaining a few regiments of Mig-31s. It's like a big huge boxer throwing a punch I'm going to move out of the way and hit back 99% of the time unless I'm a old B-52.

[vivtho]

The Damocles targeting pod must be good it's rare for most countries to use outside systems but it is done. The US Coast Guard uses French helicopters right I'm sure done. I thought Russia had a "Cold War" law that stated only Russian made products or equipment can be used on Russian aircraft? I wanted to know if this is true or is my friend breaking my chops? Does anybody know, thankshttp://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
Talking

I don't know if it was a <B>law</B>, but the only foreign equipment the USSR used came from the Warsaw Pact. The L-29 Delfin and the L-39 Albatros are two examples that come to mind. The type of 'foreign' content used was formalized in some cases. For example, I believe that it was official policy that light aircraft for liaison etc were to be built in Czechslovakia.



Coming back to the topic at hand, the strength of the Russian aircraft industry has always been in the aircraft and not in it's avionics. Virtually every customer who can afford it, installs Western/Israeli avionics in their Russian purchases. This is a step in the right direction. Expect it to have a positive impact on future sales.

[Viktor]

I think all SAM systems have flaws or can be beaten just look at Syria or really any war in the last 10/15 years and your see Russian SAMs are beatable. A lot of the ways SAMs are beaten will not be released to the public. Syria has the Thor which is a pretty modern system yet did little I don't think it's a exact science yet.

Syria does not have tor missile system not Pancir-S1 yet. Oll it has is SAM systems from cave like time and not one single modern surface to air system.

[Viktor]

Can the Mig-31 launch missiles at those high speeds?



Yes it can.

Remember Russians where the first to use low drag bombs to perform bombing at Mach 2.35 at 25 000m atitude with its MIG-25RB



And are the missiles you mentioned with those 300k ranges even in production yet?


Yes they are production. R-33S (R-33 is even in reserves as has being writen off) R-37M is in air-to-air missile production and K-100-S1 400km range based on S-300V missile 8M83 is being entered in production.



Viktor this modernization seems ongoing and not a finished product?


40 of MIG-31B has being modernized to MIG-31BM standard while development of most modern M2 modernization has being finished last year and all of them will be modernized as they will make most potent interceptor and BVR fighter in RUAF.


Not to bash the Mig-31 but is there funding for this?

210 Bin has being aproved for modernization program by 2015 so figure for yourself.


It's a huge heavy aircraft built on a 30year old design that can be seen on radar from very far distances . Sure it can fly fast and straight but in modern combat this aircraft is dated. Its difficult for missiles to hit a fighter size aircraft from 100 miles away doesn't seem odd that Russia would state such long ranges?

Do you know what amount of effort and planing was needed to even try to succesfully intercept MIG-25. No matter its adge this 50% fighter build from titanium is still untachable for todays BVR missiles... coss no one can catch him except fired at him from very close randge and none of thodays fighter except raptor has chanche to get him so close. In first gulf war 10 AIM-54 fired at MIG-25 failed to catchim and Israelis where forced to make aircraft traps to lure MIG-25 for a kill. Painstacking job.

Im telling you that fighter is second most capable BVR fighter in the world.


Russia would be better served by standardization huge Flankers fleets for this purpose it would save on training, equipment, parts, weapons, kind of the way the US uses there F-16, I realize a Mig-31 and a Viper aren't in the same class I'm just using it as an example. By using Flankers even different models would allow Russia Air Force to get better because a more standard level of training could be used across the board.

Russia being the biggest country in the world has hudge radar gaps witch only MIG-31 can cover and that was its only design purpose.



Russia only puts these wonder engines in old Mig-31s, it doesn't seem right to me. Wouldn't Russia use some of the this "high tech" on modern Flankers if some of the numbers you quoted real?

Flankers are made from different design specifications ... I suggest you compare fuell load and engine dimensions from MIG-31 to those of Su-27 and you will get right perspective.


Wouldn't have China requested these wonder Mig-31s to go far out and strike US carries or build some of the tech into there Flankers for the same purpose?

For long time MIG-31 had no ground or naval atack capability only with the introduction of MIG-31F and MIG-31BM variants where those avaible.
More to it Russia would only sold to China MIG-31E (export) variant witch is so mutch less capable than even basic MIG-31B that it is an insult to even consider it as a buy... thats why Flankers where bought.


It would serve Russia better building tech like this into a modern air frame like the Su-34 type and not 30 year old aviation fuel haulers that can only fly fast and straight.


MIG-31 will be retired once PAK-FA starts entering service in numbers as for now nothing can replace them. They have no price.
Comparing interceptor to a tactical bomber ... I dont follow your logic.


High end Flankers have powerful radar's and can carry what 10, 11, or maybe 12 missiles seems like a perfect interceptor to me and can fight and turn if they have too.

Flankers can carry only R-77 BVR missiles. MIG-31 can R-37M, R-33S, R-77 and in a while K-100-S1 so figure it for yourself.

Yust remember even basic MIG-31 can spend as mutch time on Mach 3 as Flanker can be on its afterburners .... not to mention its cruising speed , atitude etc etc ...You can basicly fly at Mach 2.35 at 25 000m and rain down 300km missiles from above and make a safe run....


I think it's old thinking and Russia could do better then maintaining a few regiments of Mig-31s. It's like a big huge boxer throwing a punch I'm going to move out of the way and hit back 99% of the time unless I'm a old B-52


Why stick it to B-52.. thise monsters are perfectly able to intercept SR-71 and as well as B-1 and B-2 guided by theirs EW radars.

[Viktor]

Coming back to the topic at hand, the strength of the Russian aircraft industry has always been in the aircraft and not in it's avionics. Virtually every customer who can afford it, installs Western/Israeli avionics in their Russian purchases. This is a step in the right direction. Expect it to have a positive impact on future sales.

India is in its Su-30MKI Batch 3 instaling only Russian avionics ... not a trace from Israel or French. And for you information about its avionics check out new Su-35.

[ROCK45]

Viktor I stand corrected Syria doesn't have modern SAMs you were right and according to this site I just found it backs up your statement. Pretty interesting stuff listed.

The Syrian SAM Network
http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/09/syrian-sam-network.html

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink

[Viktor]

Viktor I stand corrected Syria doesn't have modern SAMs you were right and according to this site I just found it backs up your statement. Pretty interesting stuff listed.

The Syrian SAM Network
http://geimint.blogspot.com/2007/09/syrian-sam-network.html

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Wink


Never mind ... we learn as long as we live ..I myself tought for a wille Syria has respective airdefence network.

Syria ordered Pancir-S1 but did not get them yet.

[eliaslar]

Can we compare a NATO system and a Russian made system only from it's technical details? The answer is no. There is no comparison between such systems, just a comparison of their technical details.
How many times in the recent future has very modern Russian systems cofronted with NATO ones? I don't think that this happened so many times. Even during NATO bombings on Serbia, Serbia didn't have extremely modern equipment and even with the equipment it had at that time it shot down an F-117, even with a lot of luck.
A SAM is a SAM and no matter how old it is, it's always a danger.
I also want to mention that Greece, as already pointed in this topic, has S-300 and during this year it will make a launch in Crete. A Russian made system is fully operational and compatible with NATO standards, just like the Mig-29's used by Luftwaffe.

[flyer19999]

Probably a good move by Greece because so many countries have the S-300 I'm sure the system has been exploited and its weakness countered. The USA bought an S-300 system for exploitation and probably knows all the weakness of the system and probably has developed countermeasures against it. Since the USA and Israel are close allies I'm sure Israel has this information too.