Sukhoi unveils Supercruising Su 35-1 flanker

[nevidimka]

BY : FLIGHT INTERNATIONAL


Sukhoi expects to conduct the first flight of its all-new Su-35-1 single-seat multirole fighter within the near future, having unveiled the KnAAPO-built design at August's Moscow air show.

Launched in 2003, the Su-35-1 lacks the integral triplane configuration employed by India's Su-30MKIs, and its cleaner layout and improved propulsion system are believed to offer supercruise performance.

The new fighter has a lighter airframe than the legacy Su-27, due to its extensive use of aluminium, titanium and composite structures.

It also has a fully digital flight-control system incorporating engine and thrust vectoring control.

The Su-35-1 can carry over 2t more fuel than the Su-27 and has a ferry range of 4.500km (2,430nm) with external fuel tanks. Airframe life is quoted as 6,000 flight hours or 30 years, and Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan says the aircraft will be available for export delivery from 2010.

The Russian air force is expected to order several of the aircraft, which will also be promoted to nations such as China.

The aircraft was displayed with new weapons including NPO Machinostoyenia Yakhont and BrahMos PJ-11 supersonic missiles. The type is also believed to be equipped with a new air-to-air missile with a range of up to 200km.

The Su-35-1 is powered by two NPO Saturn Item 117S engines, developed from the Su-27's AL-31F under a joint project with Ufa MPO.

The new design uses a fully digital control system, swivel nozzle, enlarged fan and engine inlet for higher airflow, a redesigned turbine with improved cooling and has a design life of 4,000 flight hours.

The aircraft is also equipped with a Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis radar with an electronically scanned passive array antenna. A further development of the Su-30MKI's N-011M Bars sensor, with a more powerful transmitter and higher-speed processing, the design has a claimed detection range of more than 300km against airborne threats.

[Scorpion82]

Nothing really new here, except for the fact that the first flight has still not been conducted. It would be interesting to know if the designation Su-35-1 is just for this first prototype or a kind of general designation. BTW the aircraft was originally scheduled to be ready by 2009, now it is 2010. That was also reported before, but I'm excited if there will be further delays.

[Chrom]

Nothing really new here, except for the fact that the first flight has still not been conducted. It would be interesting to know if the designation Su-35-1 is just for this first prototype or a kind of general designation. BTW the aircraft was originally scheduled to be ready by 2009, now it is 2010. That was also reported before, but I'm excited if there will be further delays.
"First flight" here mean first flight of serial aircraft which will later go in production. Various prototypes flight for long time already.

[Scorpion82]

"First flight" here mean first flight of serial aircraft which will later go in production. Various prototypes flight for long time already.

No until now no prototype of the new Su-35 (T-10BM) has been flown. Some technologies were already tested aboard other Flankers, but these examples can hardly be seen as prototypes. This first prototype can be seen as a kind of series prototype, nonetheless changes might be possible if problems arise during the testing phase.

[Chrom]

No until now no prototype of the new Su-35 (T-10BM) has been flown. Some technologies were already tested aboard other Flankers, but these examples can hardly be seen as prototypes. This first prototype can be seen as a kind of series prototype, nonetheless changes might be possible if problems arise during the testing phase. Then we possible disagree about word "prototype". You seems to think it is exactly the same aircraft what will go in production. It is not. My uderstanding it is more or less similar aircraft designed to work out concepts and bugs in the future systems and and airframe. There were already some prototypes flown with general name "su-35" with different engines and avionics, and reportedly 117S engine also was tested in flight already.

[Scorpion82]

Then we possible disagree about word "prototype". You seems to think it is exactly the same aircraft what will go in production. It is not. My uderstanding it is more or less similar aircraft designed to work out concepts and bugs in the future systems and and airframe. There were already some prototypes flown with general name "su-35" with different engines and avionics, and reportedly 117S engine also was tested in flight already.

No we don't disagree here, that's exactly what I mean and what I said. The so called "Su-35s" being flown with the KSU-35 control system, article 117S engines etc. were the T-10M-8 & 10 meaning Su-27M or better known as Su-35 (old Su-35!). These aircraft has nothing to do with the new Su-35 at all except that they were used to test some technologies as the Su-30MK2 (No. 503) was used for testing the Irbis radar.

[tphuang]

I have to agree with scorpiion here. Actually, it's kind of interesting that the Russians are making statements that their 5th generation plane will fly by 2009 when su-35 still haven't flown yet. The new Su-35 has been shown for a couple of years now. The Russians haven't placed any orders for it. China is not going to place any orders. India is not going to place any orders. I really wonder where their customers are going to come from.

[Awang se]

The new Su-35 has been shown for a couple of years now. The Russians haven't placed any orders for it. China is not going to place any orders. India is not going to place any orders. I really wonder where their customers are going to come from

i believe SU-30 is already a pinnacle of the SU-27 legacy. all other later variants do not differ greatly from the 30s. In fact, Su-30 can absorb any technological advancement available in SU-35/37. what Russia need really is not another version of SU-27, but a whole new 5th generation design. anything less will be a waste of taxpayers money.

ps: Prior to the purchase of SU-30MKM, Malaysia requested to have a look at SU-35. but the request was rebuff by Russia. one of the reason that i can think of is that SU-35 are still "incomplete". Knaapo probably waiting for an order from any country with well establish aviation industry like China or India in order to joint develope the 35s.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I have to agree with scorpiion here. Actually, it's kind of interesting that the Russians are making statements that their 5th generation plane will fly by 2009 when su-35 still haven't flown yet. The new Su-35 has been shown for a couple of years now. The Russians haven't placed any orders for it. China is not going to place any orders. India is not going to place any orders. I really wonder where their customers are going to come from.

Thats a good point. I really dont see a market for this fighter. The russians should be (probably are) spending all their pennies on the PAK-FA. The russian air force wants its 5th gen, the indans want 5th gen and have the MKI for the moment, the chinese probably wont buy off the shelf russian designs for too much longer, in reality there is just no market for this fighter. the research should be discontinued.

Reguarding the PAK-FA, anyone know what its designation will be? SU 50 perhaps?

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[tphuang]

i believe SU-30 is already a pinnacle of the SU-27 legacy. all other later variants do not differ greatly from the 30s. In fact, Su-30 can absorb any technological advancement available in SU-35/37. what Russia need really is not another version of SU-27, but a whole new 5th generation design. anything less will be a waste of taxpayers money.

ps: Prior to the purchase of SU-30MKM, Malaysia requested to have a look at SU-35. but the request was rebuff by Russia. one of the reason that i can think of is that SU-35 are still "incomplete". Knaapo probably waiting for an order from any country with well establish aviation industry like China or India in order to joint develope the 35s.
nobody is going to pay for su-35 development. China is not even paying the Russians for 5th generation development. Looking at the recent Russian projects, you see nothing but empty promises. As for su-30 being the pinnacle, that's overstating it. In terms of flight performance, avionics and stealthiness, su-35 is markedly better. You are talking about a plane lighter than su-27, but uses an engine with 15-20% more thrust + 3D TVC vs a plane that is much heavier than su-27, no improvement in thrust + 2D TVC that has to be manually controlled by the second pilot.

[qwerty223]

Russian had been developing the flankers for long enough that they do not need a "prototype", most of the time "prototype" is an old airframe with new modification. Even supercruise need a new airframe, they got no problem to build and fly. In other words, flankers were always in the "serial production status".

[Awang se]

is there a problem integrating 3D TVC engine inside SU-30 airframe? and if i'm not mistaken, SU-35 are suppose to have a 2D TVC, not 3D. The only Russian aircraft with 3D TVC (available but not install) is MIG-35.

[Scorpion82]

AFAIK the Su-35-1 is new built and no upgrade of an earlier aircraft. Su-35 is significantly reworked, though it looks like a stoke Su-27, its airfrane is almost new with a lot of structural changes, new materials and some small external visibile changes. The aircraft is supposed to be leighter than the Su-27, but with a higher MTOW, has ~2 t more fuel, no airbrake and reworked radome and tailcone. There is a completly new integrated control system including FADEC and FBW designated KSU-35. The new AL-41F1A (article 117S) are almost new in many area with increased life span and reliability, 3-D TVC and significantly more thrust (8800 kg dry/14500 kg RH). The cockpit is completely new with no analogue back up instruments for the first time and OBOGS. A HMD is proposed as well and a completely new avionics suite based on the experience already gained with the development of the PAK FA ones. The Su-35 is therefore seen as transitional fighter and not just in terms to fil the gap between the Su-27SM and PAK FA, but the Su-35 is also a kind of test bed for many technologies to be integrated into the PAK FA.
Venuzuela and Brazil are maybe potential customers and the Su-35 is interesting to all those who won't get the PAK FA or advanced western designs. The PAK FA is said to be flow in 2009 for the first time, but until the aircraft will be ready for export it will probably last until about 2020. The Su-35 is planned to be ready for delivery by 2010 and will fill the gap on the market until the PAK FA will be available.

@Ozzy,
Reguarding the PAK-FA, anyone know what its designation will be? SU 50 perhaps?

Some time ago the aircraft was dubbed I-21, but I don't know if this is official and if it will be kept. I = Istrebitel = Fighter.

[eaf-f16]

Reguarding the PAK-FA, anyone know what its designation will be? SU 50 perhaps?

Probably not Su-50. The Su-27 was named T-10, was it called Su-10? No.

My guess is that they will probably re-use the Su-47 designation for the T-50.

Everybody has to remember that Russia isn't what it used to be. It needs a cheaper but a highly effective air-air fighter in case they can't afford to buy a hundreds of PAK-FA fighters while the US is buying up a hundreds F-35's and upgrading their nearly 200 strong F-22A fleet. It could very well be making this as a stop-gap fighter for when they retire their old Flanker fleet.

What I can't figure out is why the few nations that asked for Su-35's ended up buying Su-30's instead. Was this a secrecy issue?

[Scorpion82]

What I can't figure out is why the few nations that asked for Su-35's ended up buying Su-30's instead. Was this a secrecy issue?

Who asked for the Su-35 and ended up with the Su-30? Sukhoi is only starting to sish customers for the Su-35, because this aircraft is brand new.

[eaf-f16]

Who asked for the Su-35 and ended up with the Su-30? Sukhoi is only starting to sish customers for the Su-35, because this aircraft is brand new.

Venezuela said it wanted the Su-35 not Su-30 but ended up with an Su-30 anyway.

[Scorpion82]

Venezuela said it wanted the Su-35 not Su-30 but ended up with an Su-30 anyway.

Has Venuzuela ever requested the Su-35 before, if yes when? Venuzuela decided to buy Su-30MK2 off the shelf as they had an urgent need for new fighters to be delivered as fast as possible. AFAIK Venuzuela just recently expressed their desire to buy Su-35 in the future but not before. And in the case they were interested in the Su-35 before I think they were looking for the old Su-35 (Su-27M), not the new one.

[eaf-f16]

Has Venuzuela ever requested the Su-35 before, if yes when? Venuzuela decided to buy Su-30MK2 off the shelf as they had an urgent need for new fighters to be delivered as fast as possible. AFAIK Venuzuela just recently expressed their desire to buy Su-35 in the future but not before. And in the case they were interested in the Su-35 before I think they were looking for the old Su-35 (Su-27M), not the new one.

And what brought about this urgent need?

IIRC, when Venezuela first said it was interested in new Flankers it said Su-35 (the old one) not the Su-30. Yet, they ended up buying the Su-30 anyways. My question was why is this. Weren't they talking about the Su-35 before?

And I never saw any article about any nation expressing their interest in the new Su-35. I don't think Venezuela ever said anything about it.

[Scorpion82]

And what brought about this urgent need?

IIRC, when Venezuela first said it was interested in new Flankers it said Su-35 (the old one) not the Su-30. Yet, they ended up buying the Su-30 anyways. My question was why is this. Weren't they talking about the Su-35 before?

And I never saw any article about any nation expressing their interest in the new Su-35. I don't think Venezuela ever said anything about it.

Well the US arms sales embargo on Venuzuela back in early 2006 led to the decision to buy the Su-30MK2, as the F-16 fleet couldn't be supported anymore. The old Su-35 is dead for some years now. If Venuzuela had shown interest before they for sure wanted to buy them at a later time, but the Su-30MK2 had to be delivered very quickly.
I don't exactly know where I read it, but it was in some press releases, that Venuzuela is interested in buying the Su-35 as a kind of follow on to the Su-30MK2. As the old Su-35 is not longer offered on the market, the talk must be about the new Su-35.

[eaf-f16]

Well the US arms sales embargo on Venuzuela back in early 2006 led to the decision to buy the Su-30MK2, as the F-16 fleet couldn't be supported anymore. The old Su-35 is dead for some years now. If Venuzuela had shown interest before they for sure wanted to buy them at a later time, but the Su-30MK2 had to be delivered very quickly.
I don't exactly know where I read it, but it was in some press releases, that Venuzuela is interested in buying the Su-35 as a kind of follow on to the Su-30MK2. As the old Su-35 is not longer offered on the market, the talk must be about the new Su-35.

This is what interests me. Was the Su-35 ever offered for export?

I have seen at least two Latin American nations express interest in the Su-35 but no sales so far.

[Scorpion82]

This is what interests me. Was the Su-35 ever offered for export?

I have seen at least two Latin American nations express interest in the Su-35 but no sales so far.

Yes the Su-35 was first offered to the UAE which eventually opted for the F-16 blk 60.
South Korea was another candidate, but the South Koreans opted for the F-15K in the end. The Su-35 and Eurofighter were already eliminated in a first phase of the competition.
Brazil considered the Su-35 next to the Gripen and M2k-BR, but had to cancel their efforts due lack of money. Now they want to restart their FX-competition and AFAIK Sukhoi will offer both the Su-30MK2 and Su-35 (new one). The twin seat Su-35UB was in fact built to support the marketing efforts for the Su-35 but without success.

[eaf-f16]

Yes the Su-35 was first offered to the UAE which eventually opted for the F-16 blk 60.

IIRC, that wasn't the Su-35. It was the Su-37.

[Scorpion82]

IIRC, that wasn't the Su-35. It was the Su-37.

The Designation Su-37 was only used for a single demonstrator based on the 5th Su-35 (aka Su-27M/T-10M) pre-production aircraft. It was in fact first flown as Su-35 and then retrofitted with some new stuff such as side stick, pressure sensitive throttle, coloured MFD and HuD of French origins, some ELINT/SIGINT equippement, SATCOM, GPS, AL-31FU TVC engines (on which the AL-31FP for the Su-30MKI is based) and the N-011M radar (based on the MSA equipped N-011). The aircraft was renamed to Su-37 and first flown on April 2nd 1996. In 2000 the designation Su-37 was abandoned and the aircraft renamed to Su-35 together with some upgrades/changes in the equippment of this experimental aircraft. Basically the Su-37 is or better was nothing else than a "pimped" Su-35, which was a single example just a kind of technology demonstrator not more not less. It is true that the aircraft has been offered as Su-37 to some countries like China or South Korea (back in the 90s).

[eaf-f16]

The Designation Su-37 was only used for a single demonstrator based on the 5th Su-35 (aka Su-27M/T-10M) pre-production aircraft. It was in fact first flown as Su-35 and then retrofitted with some new stuff such as side stick, pressure sensitive throttle, coloured MFD and HuD of French origins, some ELINT/SIGINT equippement, SATCOM, GPS, AL-31FU TVC engines (on which the AL-31FP for the Su-30MKI is based) and the N-011M radar (based on the MSA equipped N-011). The aircraft was renamed to Su-37 and first flown on April 2nd 1996. In 2000 the designation Su-37 was abandoned and the aircraft renamed to Su-35 together with some upgrades/changes in the equippment of this experimental aircraft. Basically the Su-37 is or better was nothing else than a "pimped" Su-35, which was a single example just a kind of technology demonstrator not more not less. It is true that the aircraft has been offered as Su-37 to some countries like China or South Korea (back in the 90s).

Are you sure? Because I remember reading an article a while back about the Su-37 on the Code One magazine website and it said that it was being offered to the UAE competition with a specialized F-15E variant, the F-16E/F and I think the EF-2000 and the F-16 ended up wining.

[Chrom]

old Flanker fleet.

What I can't figure out is why the few nations that asked for Su-35's ended up buying Su-30's instead. Was this a secrecy issue?

No, definitly not. Su-35 is purery export project, RUAF never ever intended to buy it. Su-35 is just not ready, whereas Su-30 could be aquired literally overnight - a big plus from all points of view. Addidionally, many Su-35 options can be incorporated to Su-30 upgrade - engines, avionic and weapon most definitly.

[Scorpion82]

Are you sure? Because I remember reading an article a while back about the Su-37 on the Code One magazine website and it said that it was being offered to the UAE competition with a specialized F-15E variant, the F-16E/F and I think the EF-2000 and the F-16 ended up wining.

As said above the designation Su-37 was for a while used as many became used to the well known Su-37 demonstrator. Back in the 90s the aircraft was offered as Su-37 to some customers, but this changed in 2000 when the demonstrator was renamed back to Su-35. Look at the more recent brochures from Sukhoi and you will see the Su-35 being proposed with the 37 features, even showing the No.711 demonstrator on the picture. Meanwhile further development of the old Su-35 has been canceled and the aircraft isn't offered anymore.

[F-15 Eagle]

I have to agree with scorpiion here. Actually, it's kind of interesting that the Russians are making statements that their 5th generation plane will fly by 2009 when su-35 still haven't flown yet. The new Su-35 has been shown for a couple of years now. The Russians haven't placed any orders for it. China is not going to place any orders. India is not going to place any orders. I really wonder where their customers are going to come from.

What do you mean the Su-35 has not flown? It is already in service in small numbers with the Russian Air force(VVS). 12 Su-35s have been built and around 5 are in service. As of 2007 it entered production in Russia. The SU-35 I think first flew in 1994 and entered service in 2003. The
Su-50 prototype will fly in 2009, it will replace the mig-29 and su-27 fighters, and be compairable with the F-22 and F-35.

[Scorpion82]

What do you mean the Su-35 has not flown? It is already in service in small numbers with the Russian Air force(VVS). 12 Su-35s have been built and around 5 are in service. As of 2007 it entered production in Russia. The SU-35 I think first flew in 1994 and entered service in 2003.

Sorry if I have to say it that straight but you are completly misinformed about that!
And I assume you are not aware about the fact that the Su-35 we talk about is not the same as the Su-35 you talk about for the moment.

I have posted this stuff a couple of times before and if I can find it I will post it, but I'm a little bit sick of repeating the same things ever and ever again.

Just short the old Su-35 (Su-27M/T-10M) was just evaluated by the russian airforce, but it never entered service.
The new Su-35 (Su-27BM/T-10BM) is a completly different aircraft. As the Su-27M is canceled since some years, the designation Su-35 has become free again and Sukhoi is using it for its newest derivate.

[onslaught]

Is it possible that the Su-35 that this thread is referring to is the Su-35BM? I believe the Su-35BM was the plane that was shown at MAKS 2007. This should be the newest plane in the Su-27 family. If that's the case, it appears to be slated for service in the VVS and will also be sold to foreign countries: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35bm.htm

Also, if the Russians are going ahead with PAK FA, is this new Su-35 a bridge to the PAK FA (from Su-27SM to Su35BM to PAK FA)?

[Scorpion82]

Is it possible that the Su-35 that this thread is referring to is the Su-35BM? I believe the Su-35BM was the plane that was shown at MAKS 2007. This should be the newest plane in the Su-27 family. If that's the case, it appears to be slated for service in the VVS and will also be sold to foreign countries: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35bm.htm

Also, if the Russians are going ahead with PAK FA, is this new Su-35 a bridge to the PAK FA (from Su-27SM to Su35BM to PAK FA)?

Yes the aircraft in question is the Su-35BM, but this designation is not official and is just inofficially used to differentiate the new Su-35 (T-10BM/Su-27BM) from the old Su-35 (Su-27M/T-10M). Until now there are no firm orders for this aircraft, though some Russian sources claim that the Su-35(BM) will be part of their arms buys within the timeframe until 2015. Nothing more has been disclosed by now.

[F-15 Eagle]

Sorry if I have to say it that straight but you are completly misinformed about that!
And I assume you are not aware about the fact that the Su-35 we talk about is not the same as the Su-35 you talk about for the moment.

I have posted this stuff a couple of times before and if I can find it I will post it, but I'm a little bit sick of repeating the same things ever and ever again.

Just short the old Su-35 (Su-27M/T-10M) was just evaluated by the russian airforce, but it never entered service.
The new Su-35 (Su-27BM/T-10BM) is a completly different aircraft. As the Su-27M is canceled since some years, the designation Su-35 has become free again and Sukhoi is using it for its newest derivate.

Oh I get it your talking about the SU-35BM, I ment the original SU-35, which they do have 5 in service. So there must be 11 SU-35(with 5 in service) and 1 SU-35BM. According to www.warfare.com/RussianMilitaryanlysis (http://www.warfare.com/RussianMilitaryanlysis) there is 5 Su-35 in service with the VVS, as well as 9 SU-30.

[Scorpion82]

Oh I get it your talking about the SU-35BM, I ment the original SU-35, which they do have 5 in service. So there must be 11 SU-35(with 5 in service) and 1 SU-35BM. According to www.warfare.com/RussianMilitaryanlysis (http://www.warfare.com/RussianMilitaryanlysis) there is 5 Su-35 in service with the VVS, as well as 9 SU-30.

These old Su-35 are not really in service, they were just evaluated by the RuAF, but the RuAF decided not field them. They are now flying for the Russian Knights aerobatics team. Only 8 Su-30 were produced two of which where test examples which were eventually handed over to Anatoly Kvotchurs Test Pilot Aerobatics team. Only 6 (board numbers 51-56) eventually entered service. At least 4 are left.

[F-15 Eagle]

These old Su-35 are not really in service, they were just evaluated by the RuAF, but the RuAF decided not field them. They are now flying for the Russian Knights aerobatics team. Only 8 Su-30 were produced two of which where test examples which were eventually handed over to Anatoly Kvotchurs Test Pilot Aerobatics team. Only 6 (board numbers 51-56) eventually entered service. At least 4 are left.

I'll have to give you the web site saying they have SU-35 in service but I'll have to find it first. The one I gave in my last post is not the one I was looking for.

[Chrom]

I'll have to give you the web site saying they have SU-35 in service but I'll have to find it first. The one I gave in my last post is not the one I was looking for. First, it is indeed not Su-35BM but old Su-35. Second, "in service" mean here rather "in testing/aerobatic units". No military regiment recived any new Su-xx family except Su-34 for a very long time. And most importantly, there are absolutely no plans for it. RuAF will not buy Su-35. RuAF will concentrate on upgrading old Su-27 along with upgrading other aircraft types like Mig-29, Mig-31, Su-24 , etc.

P.S. Su-35BM is intended as "interim" aircraft between Su-27/30 and PAK-FA for export costumers.

[F-15 Eagle]

Here is the web site, its says 12 SU-35's are active and 5 are in service, I guess the other 7 are for air shows, testing, and flight demonstration.

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1606&catid=255

Here is the one saying 9 SU-30s are in service with the VVS.

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1605&catid=255

To those who do not know what VVS means.
VVS or Voyenno-vozdushnye sily Rossii is Russian Air force in Russian.

[Scorpion82]

Here is the web site, its says 12 SU-35's are active and 5 are in service, I guess the other 7 are for air shows, testing, and flight demonstration.

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1606&catid=255

Here is the one saying 9 SU-30s are in service with the VVS.

http://warfare.ru/?linkid=1605&catid=255

Honestly this page is not much different than wikipedia. There're well known aviation journalists and experts who say otherwise. In fact there were 15 Su-27M built (6 prototypes and 6 pre-production aircraft with the board numbers 701-712 and three production aircraft board numbers 86-88). The Su-27M was tested in Aktubinsk by the RuAF, but they found the MMI being crappy and the lack of money was another issue. 5 were eventually handed over to the Russian Knights around 2003 and some are still flying for Sukhoi.

There were only the aircraft produced as mentioned before. Show me photos of operational Su-30s with other board numbers than 51-56 then I will believe you, but I doubt you will be able to do that. I'm dealing with the Flanker with more than a decade now, believe me I have closely followed its development and activities in that time.

[F-15 Eagle]

P.S. Su-35BM is intended as "interim" aircraft between Su-27/30 and PAK-FA for export costumers.

There will be no export customers for the SU-35 only Russia has them in small numbers, India is getting the SU-30MKI not as a interim aircraft but one that will serve along with the PAK-FA.

[F-15 Eagle]

Honestly this page is not much different than wikipedia. There're well known aviation journalists and experts who say otherwise. In fact there were 15 Su-27M built (6 prototypes and 6 pre-production aircraft with the board numbers 701-712 and three production aircraft board numbers 86-88). The Su-27M was tested in Aktubinsk by the RuAF, but they found the MMI being crappy and the lack of money was another issue. 5 were eventually handed over to the Russian Knights around 2003 and some are still flying for Sukhoi.

There were only the aircraft produced as mentioned before. Show me photos of operational SU-30s with other board numbers than 51-56 then I will believe you, but I doubt you will be able to do that. I'm dealing with the Flanker with more than a decade now, believe me I have closely followed its development and activities in that time.

What are you talking about? The websites I gave you does have pictures of operational SU-30 and SU-35. The SU-35 is not in the Russian Nights because they do not have a distinctive paint scheme on them that the Russian Nights have and I read that they are not used in the Russian Nights because they are too heavy and because of money problems. And I don't get what you mean by a board number, I don't see any type of numbers on the aircraft themselves.

[Scorpion82]

There will be no export customers for the SU-35 only Russia has them in small numbers, India is getting the SU-30MKI not as a interim aircraft but one that will serve along with the PAK-FA.

God damn it, don't you get the point that we are now speaking about the NEW Su-35 aka Su-35BM aka Su-35-1, internal designation T-10BM, official designation Su-27BM or SM2 (depending on if it is new built or upgraded)? The OLD Su-35 (Su-27M/T-10M) is DEAD. You should read this thread from the beginning and start to inform you self! It is confusing yes, but I cleared up the situation a couple of times now.
Start reading and understanding and learn what this here is all about before making such unqualified claims.

[Scorpion82]

What are you talking about? The websites I gave you does have pictures of operational SU-30 and SU-35. The SU-35 is not in the Russian Nights because they do not have a distinctive paint scheme on them that the Russian Nights have.

You nasty guy are unbelieveable. The pictures shown, some of the prototypes/pre-production aircraft with their paint schemes. Do you believe the RuAF uses these paint schemes? I requested pictures from the aircraft with board numbers which I haven't listed. I doubt you will find them, because these aircraft do not exist.

And just for you
Su-35 Russian Knights
http://www.knights.ru/2-10000000-0.shtml (picture right top)
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/visits_pages/maks2003_files/su-35rk_01.jpg

One of the 3 production examples (watch the colour scheme)
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/gallery/su-35_06.jpg

[F-15 Eagle]

You nasty guy are unbelieveable. The pictures shown, some of the prototypes/pre-production aircraft with their paint schemes. Do you believe the RuAF uses these paint schemes? I requested pictures from the aircraft with board numbers which I haven't listed. I doubt you will find them, because these aircraft do not exist.

And just for you
Su-35 Russian Knights
http://www.knights.ru/2-10000000-0.shtml (picture right top)
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/visits_pages/maks2003_files/su-35rk_01.jpg

One of the 3 production examples (watch the colour scheme)
http://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/gallery/su-35_06.jpg

Those are just SU-27s. As for the paint scheme, all Russia jets have those colors, its their tradition. And how do you know those pictures are pre-production models/prototypes, what proof do you have? I know there are small numbers of Su-30 and SU-35 in service, and you have not given me a source that says they are not in service other than some pictures of SU-27's. And its not RuAF, its really VVS.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Grand Danois]

Anoraks. ;)

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Awang se]

That's what i'm trying to say earlier. SU-30 will probably be the last variant of SU-27 that came into operational use. SU-35/37 introduce some of the latest technological advancement, but i doubt it will see any operational use. but many of the technologies developed for SU-35 have been integrated into SU-27/30. like MKI and MKM for example, though i sometimes think that SU-30MKI were actually SU-35 disguise as 30.

i've got info that said the forward canard of the SU-30MKI was added specifically to counter the extra weight of the N011M Bars radar.

[Scorpion82]

Those are just SU-27s. As for the paint scheme, all Russia jets have those colors, its their tradition. And how do you know those pictures are pre-production models/prototypes, what proof do you have? I know there are small numbers of Su-30 and SU-35 in service, and you have not given me a source that says they are not in service other than some pictures of SU-27's. And its not RuAF, its really VVS.

Sorry guy but this is my last reply to you, because your ignorance annoys me and before I start to get really personal I just won't reply to you anymore.

Just a last hint for you. LOOK again at the pictures in the links I gave you and look for the canards and square tipped fins. These are Su-27M aka Su-35!
That the Su-35 ended up as aerobatic aircraft for Russian Knights and the rest is flying for Sukhoi is widely aknowledge, I won't waste my time to search for the original sources just for you.

[Scorpion82]

There are pics of Su-30s in russian colors with bort numbers 388/389 (visited paris and singapore air shows). Eg 388...

The 388 is in fact a stock Su-27 (look at the picture of your link) and the 389 was a Su-27UB. Don't forget about the existance of the twin seat trainer;)


Also 501 & 502 pics are also pretty common but not sure if these remain in Russian service. Understand 503 and 504 were delivered to China.

The 500 series were in fact Su-30MKK prototypes/pre-production aircraft. Some of these aircraft are still flying for Sukhoi and were used as Su-30MK2 test beds. The 503 was in fact not delivered to China but is currently used for testing the Irbis radar for the new Su-35.


There is also a pic of the Su-30KN with 302 (c/n 1010302). This could have gone to the IAF...

The board number 302 was the Su-30KN prototype built from RuAF board number 53. The RuAF originally planned to upgrade their dirty hand full to that standard along with some Su-27UB, but eventually decided to go for the Su-27SM upgrade. I don't know about the status of the 302, but it was definitely not delivered to India.


btw, you'll get to see a lot of 01-06, 597/603 pics as well (these are of course 51-56 series).

The 01 & 06 were the first Su-30MKI prototypes. The 01 was in fact converted from the RuAF board number 56. Sukhoi additionally built the Su-30MKI pre-production aircraft 04 & 05 which are now used as testbeds for the Su-30MKM & MKA.
The 603 was the original Su-30MK demonstrator and was converted from one of the 2 Su-30 prototypes, which were built in the late 80's.
The 597 was one of 2 Su-30 preproduction examples which passed the flight acceptance tests and was handed over to the Test Pilot Aerobatics Team of Anatoly Kvotchur after completing their tests. I'm not completely sure if the second example was handed over as well as 596 or 598, but I mean to remember both aircraft were delivered to the Aerobatics Team.


There is also this interesting pic of a 67 in 2006...

That is indeed the only board number I don't know about. It seems to be a Russian Knights aircraft. Might be that this is the former 302 or one of the Test Pilot Aerobatics Team examples decribed above.

greets Scorpion

[Scorpion82]

Just for completion, here are two links about the new Su-35. The first one is an official brochure from KNAAPO, the second one an article from the well known author Andrey Formin. Take a look at them.

http://www.knaapo.ru/media/News/maks2007/35_eng.zip

http://www.sukhoi.org/files/su_news_29-08-07_eng.pdf

[onslaught]

Those are just SU-27s. As for the paint scheme, all Russia jets have those colors, its their tradition. And how do you know those pictures are pre-production models/prototypes, what proof do you have? I know there are small numbers of Su-30 and SU-35 in service, and you have not given me a source that says they are not in service other than some pictures of SU-27's. And its not RuAF, its really VVS.

I actually brought up this issue in another thread where I thought Su-35's were in service. In fact, I even gave that thread the same website that said that 12 Su-35's were "in service". Since trying to find that thread might be a pain, this is what I learned. First of all, The old Su-35 (Su-27M) didn't enter service but the Russians started another upgrade program (Su-27SM). The Su-27SM took features from the Su-30MKK but with some better Russian electronics (if I remember correctly). I even found an article that said that the Su-27SM could be considered as something like 4+ or even 5th generation (I highly doubt the 5th generation descrition). Anyway, I think this site will clear up a lot of issues.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35.htm

[onslaught]

I guess finding that old thread wasn't that much of a pain after all. Look at turin's post.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756&page=2&highlight=Su-35

[eaf-f16]

I actually brought up this issue in another thread where I thought Su-35's were in service. In fact, I even gave that thread the same website that said that 12 Su-35's were "in service". Since trying to find that thread might be a pain, this is what I learned. First of all, The old Su-35 (Su-27M) didn't enter service but the Russians started another upgrade program (Su-27SM). The Su-27SM took features from the Su-30MKK but with some better Russian electronics (if I remember correctly). I even found an article that said that the Su-27SM could be considered as something like 4+ or even 5th generation (I highly doubt the 5th generation descrition). Anyway, I think this site will clear up a lot of issues.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35.htm

Yeah, I'm going to look more into Russia's upgrade program for their Flanker fleet. I wonder if it's going to be like China's J-11B. Anybody have any info on this?

[nevidimka]

A pic of the new Su35-1 variant at MAKS2007 airshow. Note the covered air intakes, suggesting a changes dimension air intake as described in 1 of the websites on Su35-1.

Also the smaller vertical tail, n smaller appearence of the canopy right behind the cockpit, due to minituarising of avionics components.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/photos/9/5/1/1256159.jpg

[qwerty223]

Don't know who to quote as the thread is quite long, but SU-35 is not ONLY for export. Like what the Russian from the pass had been practicing, it is a multipurpose development. The most important purpose IMO is the practical experience gain from operating the system developed from the new concept. These experience play a very important role in the Russian style of tech development. Anyhow, Russian is quite lack back in the AF assets, with the rise of their interest in regain military power, I see positive future of the SU-35. According to my prediction, at least 40~60 samples will be introduce before the PAK-FA come into service.

Yeah, I'm going to look more into Russia's upgrade program for their Flanker fleet. I wonder if it's going to be like China's J-11B. Anybody have any info on this?
J-11B is a Chinese development, and for the present time, SU-35 is obviously heading for a far more sophisticate stage, in other words, it is no where near a J-11B

[F-15 Eagle]

I actually brought up this issue in another thread where I thought Su-35's were in service. In fact, I even gave that thread the same website that said that 12 Su-35's were "in service". Since trying to find that thread might be a pain, this is what I learned. First of all, The old Su-35 (Su-27M) didn't enter service but the Russians started another upgrade program (Su-27SM). The Su-27SM took features from the Su-30MKK but with some better Russian electronics (if I remember correctly). I even found an article that said that the Su-27SM could be considered as something like 4+ or even 5th generation (I highly doubt the 5th generation description). Anyway, I think this site will clear up a lot of issues.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-35.htm

It said the financial crisis meant that the SU-35 was not built in large numbers, only 15 were built, so i take it those 15 are in service...right?

[Scorpion82]

It said the financial crisis meant that the SU-35 was not built in large numbers, only 15 were built, so i take it those 15 are in service...right?

Unbelieveable have you read anything I posted before and if yes have you understand it? I suppose not. This question is almost a brashness after I tipped my fingers wound:lul

[tphuang]

It said the financial crisis meant that the SU-35 was not built in large numbers, only 15 were built, so i take it those 15 are in service...right?

For the last time, they are not in service anywhere.


Yeah, I'm going to look more into Russia's upgrade program for their Flanker fleet. I wonder if it's going to be like China's J-11B. Anybody have any info on this?

J-11B is not an upgrade program. It's a brand new fighter.


Don't know who to quote as the thread is quite long, but SU-35 is not ONLY for export. Like what the Russian from the pass had been practicing, it is a multipurpose development. The most important purpose IMO is the practical experience gain from operating the system developed from the new concept. These experience play a very important role in the Russian style of tech development. Anyhow, Russian is quite lack back in the AF assets, with the rise of their interest in regain military power, I see positive future of the SU-35. According to my prediction, at least 40~60 samples will be introduce before the PAK-FA come into service.

RuAF already committed all of their money into su-34 and upgrade programs for su-27, there is simply no money left for su-35.


J-11B is a Chinese development, and for the present time, SU-35 is obviously heading for a far more sophisticate stage, in other words, it is no where near a J-11B

what makes you think su-35 when it comes out will be better than J-11B?


That's what i'm trying to say earlier. SU-30 will probably be the last variant of SU-27 that came into operational use. SU-35/37 introduce some of the latest technological advancement, but i doubt it will see any operational use. but many of the technologies developed for SU-35 have been integrated into SU-27/30. like MKI and MKM for example, though i sometimes think that SU-30MKI were actually SU-35 disguise as 30.

i've got info that said the forward canard of the SU-30MKI was added specifically to counter the extra weight of the N011M Bars radar.

one is a knaapo product and the other is an iapo product. airframe is different, engine has far more thrust, uses 3D TVC, has an all-digital cockpit and a more advanced radar.

[onslaught]

It said the financial crisis meant that the SU-35 was not built in large numbers, only 15 were built, so i take it those 15 are in service...right?

Right now, I think the Russians' biggest goal is the PAK FA. The Su-47 and the MiG-1.44 were technology demonstrators that tested the technology that will be put onto the PAK FA. An Su-35 could be used as a tech demonstrator too (kinda like the MiG-29OVT). You can also check out: http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_2.html#m3
I'll put it another way, the Su-35 is a pretty advanced bird, but against the F-22, the PAK FA seems to have more promise (not to mention more funding from India). The Russians really need to focus their efforts on PAK FA if they want to get its first flight by 2009, which is what they planned. The Su-27M (Su-35) was a huge step up from the older Su-27's and I guess the Russians were unsure if they could pull it off. The Su-27SM isn't as big a step up but it's still a substantial upgrade. I believe though, that the bottom line is PAK FA.

[qwerty223]

RuAF already committed all of their money into su-34 and upgrade programs for su-27, there is simply no money left for su-35.


I dont see any reason the russian will back of for SU-35 if they were to practice as they said: to regain military power. Take navy for example, old subs are due to scarp with no fund allocated, but new subs and SLBM are coming up rapidly. note that each sub is worth a sqd of fighter.

The fact is they are building new SU-34 not upgrading them. Anyhow, they are both different assets that cannot replace each other, hence and allocate will not overlap each other. When upgrading the S/SMs are not the option to go as these airframe could had been 25~30years old given time at 2012, new airframe with SU-35 standard which actually is a SU-35 will be accepted into service.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Scorpion82]

what makes you think su-35 when it comes out will be better than J-11B?


Honestly do you believe that the Chinese will built a better Flanker than the Russians? I personally doubt it. The J-11B is in the end a chinese version of the Su-27SK with some domestic technologies being incorporated such as WS-10A engines, some cockpit updates (2 MFDs, new HuD) and a little bit of new chinese electronic equipment including a MSA radar and with chinese weapons integrated (PL-8/11/12). The Su-35 on the other site is an almost completly new aircraft with a probably more advanced airframe, superior engines (3-D TVC and more thrust), larger internal fuel load, more advanced FCS (though the J-11B might be equipped with digital FBW as well), a much more powerful and advanced radar, more advanced cockpit and electronics and with broader weapon options. Of course it is difficult to judge due the limited details being known especially about the J-11B, but I think it's very likely that the Su-35 will be superior.

[Scorpion82]

Besides the avionics, N001V radar and FM1 engine upgrades, there is also the updated self-defense suite, with the L150 Pastel ELINT system, a new L175 Khibiny jamming system, and chaff-flare dispensers in addition to strengthening the landing gear in view of the increased load of 8 tons.


From where do you get the info that the Su-27SM is equipped with L150? BTW L175 is an ESM system and will be featured by the Su-35, I doubt it is already available for the Su-27SM. Basically I would be interested in any news about the updated EWS for the SM as I though there would be no upgrades.

[eaf-f16]

J-11B is not an upgrade program. It's a brand new fighter.

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

[Scorpion82]

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.

[Chrom]

There will be no export customers for the SU-35 only Russia has them in small numbers, India is getting the SU-30MKI not as a interim aircraft but one that will serve along with the PAK-FA. Russia dont have even single Su-35BM. Some "old" Su-35 are located in testing and show units like "Russian Knight". While formally they are in service within VVS, in fact they are not.

Again, Su-35BM will not be procured by RuAF. There is absolutely no plans for it, and no funds in recent 8-years procurement plan. All interviews i saw told 1 thing - it is purery export project, intendend exclusevely for export costumers.

[Chrom]

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

Su-27SM upgrade already offers some multirole capabilty - i.e it is able to employ guided air-to-ground ammunition.

[eaf-f16]

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.

I meant as in a completely new airframe design, different from the standard Su-27 airframe. Otherwise the J-11B (as is the Su-3X plane) is just an upgraded Su-27.

[F-15 Eagle]

Russia dont have even single Su-35BM. Some "old" Su-35 are located in testing and show units like "Russian Knight". While formally they are in service within VVS, in fact they are not.

Again, Su-35BM will not be procured by RuAF. There is absolutely no plans for it, and no funds in recent 8-years procurement plan. All interviews i saw told 1 thing - it is purery export project, intendend exclusevely for export costumers.

I was not talking about the SU-35BM, only the origonal Su-35. Yes as I said a few are in service with thr Russian air force such as the Russian Nights.

[onslaught]

I was not talking about the SU-35BM, only the origonal Su-35. Yes as I said a few are in service with thr Russian air force such as the Russian Nights.

You keep saying that the Su-35 is in service there are different kinds of "service". You have the kind of service where the aircraft will participate in combat should the need arise. You also have the kind of service that are for non combat roles lie tech demonstators or trainers. So, in very technical terms, yes the su-35 is in service, but it will not be in "combat service".

[qwerty223]

Well, i did said b4m, among the SMs, only few of them were new built airframe, while majority were upgraded S airframe which will due to their 30th birthday soon.

[F-15 Eagle]

You keep saying that the Su-35 is in service there are different kinds of "service". You have the kind of service where the aircraft will participate in combat should the need arise. You also have the kind of service that are for non combat roles lie tech demonstators or trainers. So, in very technical terms, yes the su-35 is in service, but it will not be in "combat service".

Yes thats what I was trying to say.:onfloorl:

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[qwerty223]

Don't think the L150 is anything spectacular. Already Rosoboronexport has a brochure on the L150...

Adder seeker is on the list too. I don't see any relationship that led you made such conclusion. Russian are selling everything they have, so nothing to be surprise.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[qwerty223]

Well, of coz, the "everything" refers to the assets that are "appropriate" to export. I was trying to express that the ECM suit you claim to be "nothing spectacular" is not describing the picture correctly. It was part of a 90s upgrade, therefore reasonable to be no more sophisticate in the eyes of present.

Interesting enough, that if were to elaborate acording to your logic, SU-35 is definately out of the export list.

[Scorpion82]

Got this from the following website:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avsu27_2.html

I think the info was based on the SM version demonstrated in MAKS 2003. The original source if I'm not wrong was an air international article in 2004. I think the SM version also has the option of KNIRTI's SAP-518 jammers.


Don't think the L150 is anything spectacular. Already Rosoboronexport has a brochure on the L150...

As said until now I thought the Su-27SM would have no upgraded EWS equippment, but I'm not really surprised at all. It was time for some upgrades. The L150 is a conventional sigital RWR similar to western systems like the AN/ALR-69 or 56 for example. So really nothing special about it. It was already developed in the late 80s or early 90s for the MiG-29M/K and newer Flanker derivates such as the Su-27IB & M.


I understand the standard Su-27 has the SPO-15/L006 Beryoza and L005 Sorbtsiya. I have read a chinese source which suggested that the actual SM upgrades used the Sorbtsiya instead of the Khibiny.

The SPO-15/L006 is the standard RWR fitted to earlier Su-27 versions, including the Su-30 and Su-33. The L005/Sorbtsiya is an external jamming system which can be fitted to the wing tips instead of the launch rails. I think the system has been contineously upgraded over the years. The L175/Khibiny is AFAIK no jammer, but an ESM system which will be fitted to the new Su-35.

[tphuang]

All J-11B are new built. It's not an upgrade for existing airframes, but of course is the J-11B based on the Su-27SK. Despite the fact that the S-u27SM is an upgrade for existing Su-27 it features very similar improvments of the Su-27 like the J-11B.
If SAC can only improve J-11B to SM level (which is basically around MK2), then it will get zero order from PLAAF.

Really? With new air frame and everything? Because otherwise it's not a brand new plane it's just a really big upgrade.

I was asking because I thought the J-11B is supposed to be a standard J-11/Su-27 with extensive upgrades making it approach, match or even exceed the Su-30 in some aspects.

I was wandering if the Russian Air Force was going to do anything that comprehensive with their Su-27 fleet (e.i. giving them multi-role capability).

well, it's definitely lighter, uses a lot more composites, different engine, a digital FBW, complete different set of sensors and a much more power radar. su-30mk2 is a pretty low standard.

As for how J-11B compare to su-35 in a few years. In terms of RCS, there is simply a limit to how much each can decrease by. They can easily put the upgraded WS-10 engine into J-11B by the time su-35 is ready. Which means, su-35 will not have any kind of advantage in that area. In terms of missiles, China has always preferred PL-12 and PL-8B over R-77/R-73. And in terms of radar/avionics, I certainly think China can match anything that su-35 brings. I know there are a lot of news on Irbis. China has actually tried it out and found it to be a very good radar, but just not as good as the Russians advertised. Certainly, it's current radar on J-11B is at least comparable in tracking range to Irbis.

[Scorpion82]

China has actually tried it out and found it to be a very good radar, but just not as good as the Russians advertised. Certainly, it's current radar on J-11B is at least comparable in tracking range to Irbis.

I assume "not as good" means that it doesn't achieved the range performance often promoted? This contradicts some claims, but honestly I wouldn't wonder at all.

[tphuang]

I assume "not as good" means that it doesn't achieved the range performance often promoted? This contradicts some claims, but honestly I wouldn't wonder at all.

right, more specifically the claim that it can track 3 sqm targets from 400 km. I don't think plaaf got that on their tests. I think plaaf got something like 100 km vs 0.1 sqm targets. Certainly more powerful than most radar out there although it probably lights up RWR easily.

[Scorpion82]

right, more specifically the claim that it can track 3 sqm targets from 400 km. I don't think plaaf got that on their tests. I think plaaf got something like 100 km vs 0.1 sqm targets. Certainly more powerful than most radar out there although it probably lights up RWR easily.

That's what I thought. The 400 km figure against a 3 sqm target sounds way to much especially for a fighter sized PESA, though the Flanker itself is relative large.

[tphuang]

That's what I thought. The 400 km figure against a 3 sqm target sounds way to much especially for a fighter sized PESA, though the Flanker itself is relative large.

yeah, I can believe tracking flankers from that far, since it is just huge. But against 3 sqm targets, that sounds like too much. I don't even know what's in their air force that is 3 sqm in frontal RCS.

[eaf-f16]

yeah, I can believe tracking flankers from that far, since it is just huge. But against 3 sqm targets, that sounds like too much. I don't even know what's in their air force that is 3 sqm in frontal RCS.

The new Su-35BM is supposed to have a RCS similar to a Block 50/53 F-16C.

[Chrom]

The new Su-35BM is supposed to have a RCS similar to a Block 50/53 F-16C. Hard to tell, new Mig-29/35 with RAM advertised with 0.3 m2 RCS, and Su-34 sometimes quoted with "less than 1 m2". Su-35BM might well share same RCS reduction....

[tphuang]

Hard to tell, new Mig-29/35 with RAM advertised with 0.3 m2 RCS, and Su-34 sometimes quoted with "less than 1 m2". Su-35BM might well share same RCS reduction....

the Russians will tell you anything. Nothing is going to hide those engine blades or the huge square intakes or the externally carried AAMs or the vertical stabilizers or the radar that will light up any RWR. If Mig-35 has a 0.3 sqm radar, then Rafale will be as stealthy as F-22.

The new Su-35BM is supposed to have a RCS similar to a Block 50/53 F-16C.

and you believe that?

[qwerty223]

the Russians will tell you anything. Nothing is going to hide those engine blades or the huge square intakes or the externally carried AAMs or the vertical stabilizers or the radar that will light up any RWR. If Mig-35 has a 0.3 sqm radar, then Rafale will be as stealthy as F-22.

and you believe that?
Sorry to disappointed you, but other than the Chinese, people really had a hard time to believe J-11B is, even to say, an equivalent to SU-35, as for the time being, WS-10 still struggling for its serial production for unknown reason., while the SU-35 has abandon the AL-31.

[eaf-f16]

the Russians will tell you anything. Nothing is going to hide those engine blades or the huge square intakes or the externally carried AAMs or the vertical stabilizers or the radar that will light up any RWR. If Mig-35 has a 0.3 sqm radar, then Rafale will be as stealthy as F-22.

and you believe that?

I don't believe it. I was just stating what the Russians said. And no one honestly knows.

And apparently, they did find a way of hiding external loads, and fan blades. They applied RAM to A2A munitions and on the fan blades as well (but they had trouble with fan blades).

And if the MiG-35's RCS is really 0.3 sqm then it will be just as stealthy as the F-22 and the F-35, which is absolute BS. We all know that's not true. Why even bother make 5th-gen fighter then if you can make your legacy fighters that small on radar? I doubt the Russians even said that.

[Chrom]

I don't believe it. I was just stating what the Russians said. And no one honestly knows.

And apparently, they did find a way of hiding external loads, and fan blades. They applied RAM to A2A munitions and on the fan blades as well (but they had trouble with fan blades).

And if the MiG-35's RCS is really 0.3 sqm then it will be just as stealthy as the F-22 and the F-35, which is absolute BS. We all know that's not true. Why even bother make 5th-gen fighter then if you can make your legacy fighters that small on radar? I doubt the Russians even said that.

Hmm, if you are proposing what F-22 have RCS of 0.3 m2...

P.S. They claim 10x RCS reduction with RAM. On they official site...

[Scorpion82]

Hmm, if you are proposing what F-22 have RCS of 0.3 m2...

P.S. They claim 10x RCS reduction with RAM. On they official site...

But it is no news that neither the MiG-29 not the Su-27 have a RCS of 3 sqm. And the Russians claim a lot when the day is long. Honestly with RAM alone it is very difficult to make such an achievment. Structure, materials, shaping, all this goes in as well.

[Chrom]

But it is no news that neither the MiG-29 not the Su-27 have a RCS of 3 sqm. And the Russians claim a lot when the day is long. Honestly with RAM alone it is very difficult to make such an achievment. Structure, materials, shaping, all this goes in as well.
Yes, seems a bit too much reduction just for RAM and some minor chanes. Basic Mig-29 have about 5 m2 RCS. On they other hand, i dont quite believe F-22 advertising about 0.001 m2 RCS either. So it is not if russians are unique about they advertising...

Personally, i'm in doubt. From one hand official sourse claim 10x RCS reduction. From the other hand, common sense contradicts it. But with new technologies you never know the truth...

[eaf-f16]

Hmm, if you are proposing what F-22 have RCS of 0.3 m2...

P.S. They claim 10x RCS reduction with RAM. On they official site...

Yes, I believe that both the F-22 and the F-35 are probably in the 0.3m2-0.2m2 ballpark. Unless you believe the whole "the F-22 is as small as a marble on radar and has a RCS of 0.000000000000001m2" BS.

[Incognito129]

I doubt the f-22 has an rcs that big. The f-18e has an RCS of 0.1 m2.

You've basically said the f-22 is a huge Admin: Text deleted.

[Incognito129]

the Russians will tell you anything. Nothing is going to hide those engine blades or the huge square intakes or the externally carried AAMs or the vertical stabilizers or the radar that will light up any RWR. If Mig-35 has a 0.3 sqm radar, then Rafale will be as stealthy as F-22.

and you believe that?

You believe the j-11b is comparable to su-35, as in what? It can fire a missile, has a radar?

Im sorry but you need much more time to develop any sort of comparable capability. All we are seeing is number copying, provided these numbers are even true.

[gf0012-aust]

I doubt the f-22 has an rcs that big. The f-18e has an RCS of 0.1 m2.

You've basically said the f-22 is a huge. Admin: Text deleted. Go easy on the expletives.....

[eaf-f16]

I doubt the f-22 has an rcs that big. The f-18e has an RCS of 0.1 m2.

You've basically said the f-22 is a huge Admin: Text deleted.

Really? The Super Hornet has RCS of 0.1m2? I'm guessing you have a source for that since you're stating it as if you know it for a fact...

[tphuang]

Sorry to disappointed you, but other than the Chinese, people really had a hard time to believe J-11B is, even to say, an equivalent to SU-35, as for the time being, WS-10 still struggling for its serial production for unknown reason., while the SU-35 has abandon the AL-31.
Unknown doesn't equate to lack of capability.
J-11B is operational, su-35 isn't
WS-10A is not struggling, it's in mass production. All J-11B are using it.


P.S. They claim 10x RCS reduction with RAM. On they official site...

yeah, but that won't be the case when it has to carry missiles and stuff. That dramatically increases it. And then you factor in those hugely unstealthy intakes, you got issues.


You believe the j-11b is comparable to su-35, as in what? It can fire a missile, has a radar?

Im sorry but you need much more time to develop any sort of comparable capability. All we are seeing is number copying, provided these numbers are even true.

Have you seen any J-11B? Do you know what it's capable of in a few years? The only parts China has shown any interest in su-35 are its engine and radar. And in a couple of years, there won't be any interest in those areas either.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[qwerty223]

Unknown doesn't equate to lack of capability.
J-11B is operational, su-35 isn't
WS-10A is not struggling, it's in mass production. All J-11B are using it.

There were two unsourced claim of you here. J-11B is operational? WS-10A is in production?

[eaf-f16]

Well, this hornet definitely has an RCS less than 0.1m2...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nuclearlakeside/1175796840/

Seriously, we all know how figures for RCS comes about...Just think, who in the public domain has the ability to measure RCS? Who in the defense industry is allowed to talk about RCS?

Its not like one can construct one of these in their backyard...
http://www.thehowlandcompany.com/RCS-Hughes.htm

On the other hand, we have bill sweetman and his articles quoting "industry sources" about how RCS of the SH is reduced by xx db...

http://aviationweek.typepad.com/ares/2007/05/eads_knows_lo.html

He of course was the guy who quoted the "marble-sized" RCS for the JSF/F22.

What is definite is that the SH uses RCS reducing techniques more advanced than those of the earlier hornets.

I don't doubt the Super Hornet having "stealthy characteristics", it's the 0.1m2 figure that I have a problem. And I don't think we can trust a guy who said the F-35 and F-22 have a RCS of 0.0001m2 (or whatever that ridiculous number was).

[tphuang]

There were two unsourced claim of you here. J-11B is operational? WS-10A is in production?
brother, go check the WS-10A thread on SDF. There are numerous official reports from AVIC1 that WS-10A has achieved mass production. As for J-11B, there are no official gov't report that it's in service, but if you check the flanker thread on SDF, you will find pretty official source that say it's in mass production right now. Just because you haven't seen it, that doesn't mean these sources don't exist.

[qwerty223]

brother, go check the WS-10A thread on SDF. There are numerous official reports from AVIC1 that WS-10A has achieved mass production. As for J-11B, there are no official gov't report that it's in service, but if you check the flanker thread on SDF, you will find pretty official source that say it's in mass production right now. Just because you haven't seen it, that doesn't mean these sources don't exist.
Yeah, dont just claim, quote one SDF paragraph that state J-11B is in service. Of course, i will apologize if your definition of "operational" includes test bed and experimental airframes.