Rumour - Claims Azerbaijan has Merkava Mk 3

[drg]

Just wandering around the net and found a rumour that Azerbaijan has 25 Merkava Mk 3s.
Anyone have any information on this, or is this the biggest POC (international translation: "piece of crap") on the net?

[robsta83]

Just wandering around the net and found a rumour that Azerbaijan has 25 Merkava Mk 3s.
Anyone have any information on this, or is this the biggest POC (international translation: "piece of crap") on the net?

Is their a link for this?

[kotay]

doing a quick google for this ...

In a Local Armenian Forum (http://www.armenianplanet.com/about2505.html)

But let me count u 2 facts of last 3 month -

Azerbaijan bought 18 Mig 29th fromUkraine
Azerbaijan has bought Merkava mk 3s from israel

Now, i am the militaryguy, and u know we have Nakhchivan as well, armed with Turkish arms and technology, as well as air force.

and as usual the ever reliable and accurate Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Army)

By 2003 the Azerbaijan military had acquired an additional 284 Main battle tanks consisting of:

* T-72 - 136
* T-55 - 123
* Merkava - 25


There's some other rumours floating around that a *cough* south east asian country has also acquired Merks too ... FWIW

[kato]

SIPRI (http://www.sipri.org/contents/editors/tradedb) lists zero deliveries (of any defence material) from Israel to Azerbaijan between 1996 and 2006.

They're usually pretty reliable in that regard, even listing "credible rumours" (marked thus of course).

[eckherl]

doing a quick google for this ...

In a Local Armenian Forum (http://www.armenianplanet.com/about2505.html)



and as usual the ever reliable and accurate Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Army)



There's some other rumours floating around that a *cough* south east asian country has also acquired Merks too ... FWIW

This is nothing but a false rumor, all military ground equipement is either Russian or from Ukraine. They have purchased many T-72s directly from the Ukrainians in the last 7 years, one should ask what would they want with a handful of Merks when they would have a logistical challenge just keeping them running and firing. The IDF would not sell them anyways especially a Merk 3 or 4. :)

[kotay]

Aw don't spoil the fun ... the quoted poster is after all "The Militaryguy". Makes for great fun when they start doing the "My country will so trash your country because we've got Merks" song & dance routine. ;)

[drg]

Like i said above it seems like a POC...
YET, after i found out that Kazakhstan had 40 Boragh APCs from Iran, I'm probably a lot more careful about these types of rumour (ie more inclined to believe it is possible).
It seems a bit outlandish, but if these sales are true, then maybe there was an attempt by Iran and Israel to gain diplomatic clout in the area. After all, it seems that NATO (and the EU) is more inclined to be friendly to Azerbaijan than Turkey, and the US has frequently visited Azerbaijan (well Rumsfeld has) and called the country a friend.
Its pretty obvious there is an attempt on by the EU/NATO to show Azerbaijan love because of the recent BTC pipeline opening (and its possible extension to Italy by 2012). Anyways, Im getting off subject...
But yeah, is this a case of (perhaps, though not likely) diplomatic gamesmanship in Central Asia? Not likely, but ive heard some whopping rumours in my time, and most have turned out to be true, when it comes to arms procurement.

[Rossiman]

Even if they do have Merkava's, what is 25 inexperienced tank's going to do? The tank is great, i am talking about the crew. I love the Merkava it has it's flaws/weaknesses but all tanks do. I am fond of the idea, of being able to throw troops in the back to act as a IFV.

[eckherl]

Even if they do have Merkava's, what is 25 inexperienced tank's going to do? The tank is great, i am talking about the crew. I love the Merkava it has it's flaws/weaknesses but all tanks do. I am fond of the idea, of being able to throw troops in the back to act as a IFV.

Could you elaborate more on what those weakness and flaw issues are in regards to the Merkava 3. Is the Merkava specifically designed to carry troops.

[Rossiman]

Could you elaborate more on what those weakness and flaw issues are in regards to the Merkava 3. Is the Merkava specifically designed to carry troops.

The Merkava has enough room to transport 4 soldiers in the back. You sacrifice ammo but it's being used as a IFV.The front mounted mobility system. The engine, transmission and final drives, are all exposed to enemy fire. Although these systems are well armored to an extent, a big enough impact or penetration can disable them. I just cannot stress the idea that putting the stuff you want to protect the MOST, in the area thats going to take the most punishment. Israel says this is to add protection for the crew by providing another layer to absorb behind the armor effects.

But in 5 years of war in Iraq the front armor of the Challenger has proven just as durable as the Merkava, without the mobility risks and the Abrams has yet to be defeated from the front. Plus the Merkava has a dry turret rather than blow out panels. It keeps its ammo in individually separated canisters that are fire proof but not armored. Since the 120mm uses combustible cartridges, the risk that remains if a BAE detonation where to go off, leaving the blast with no where to go is a "Crew killer".

It's a great tank, but there are flaws. All tanks have flaws though, its just the matter of the crew, and Israeli tank crews are very well trained. They have been at war for decades.

I think that in the future "we could see more designs like the Merkava". It is a great tank and is one of the top tanks in the world. The Gun is massive and lethal out to far ranges. The fire control system is excellent and so is there armor, it's top of the line.

Look at there Armor protection level:
http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm

I wouldn't necessarily say that its being used as a "troop transport" all the time. But there have been many scenarios where they have used it as one.

Hope this helps clear stuff up:
Rossiman

[eckherl]

The Merkava has enough room to transport 4 soldiers in the back. You sacrifice ammo but it's being used as a IFV.The front mounted mobility system. The engine, transmission and final drives, are all exposed to enemy fire. Although these systems are well armored to an extent, a big enough impact or penetration can disable them. I just cannot stress the idea that putting the stuff you want to protect the MOST, in the area thats going to take the most punishment. Israel says this is to add protection for the crew by providing another layer to absorb behind the armor effects.

But in 5 years of war in Iraq the front armor of the Challenger has proven just as durable as the Merkava, without the mobility risks and the Abrams has yet to be defeated from the front. Plus the Merkava has a dry turret rather than blow out panels. It keeps its ammo in individually separated canisters that are fire proof but not armored. Since the 120mm uses combustible cartridges, the risk that remains if a BAE detonation where to go off, leaving the blast with no where to go is a "Crew killer".

It's a great tank, but there are flaws. All tanks have flaws though, its just the matter of the crew, and Israeli tank crews are very well trained. They have been at war for decades.

I think that in the future "we could see more designs like the Merkava". It is a great tank and is one of the top tanks in the world. The Gun is massive and lethal out to far ranges. The fire control system is excellent and so is there armor, it's top of the line.

Look at there Armor protection level:
http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm

I wouldn't necessarily say that its being used as a "troop transport" all the time. But there have been many scenarios where they have used it as one.

Hope this helps clear stuff up:
Rossiman

Yep - thats what I figured, you don`t have clue on what you are talking about, nothing but rubbish.:rolleyes: you are nothing more than a internet cowboy who has a major malfunction in life going on.

What you deem as a flaw the IDF views as a strong point inregards to engine pact placement in two areas:

1.Rough ground cross country movement.
2.Frontal armor protection which gives them a 20% increase over shaped charges.

You do realize that the turret on the Merkava 4 is modular in design.
The crew is protected by a blast proof door at the tank round access point that works and has saved lives.

You should use caution what you pick up on line, that link is set up for war gamers and I know for a fact that some of the information is false.

[eckherl]

This is nothing but a false rumor, all military ground equipement is either Russian or from Ukraine. They have purchased many T-72s directly from the Ukrainians in the last 7 years, one should ask what would they want with a handful of Merks when they would have a logistical challenge just keeping them running and firing. The IDF would not sell them anyways especially a Merk 3 or 4. :)

I need to make a correction in regards to the Merkava 3, it is offered for export by Sibat but still has no takers, countries have looked and tested but no sales.

[Rossiman]

Yep - thats what I figured, you don`t have clue on what you are talking about, nothing but rubbish.:rolleyes: you are nothing more than a internet cowboy who has a major malfunction in life going on.

What you deem as a flaw the IDF views as a strong point inregards to engine pact placement in two areas:

1.Rough ground cross country movement.
2.Frontal armor protection which gives them a 20% increase over shaped charges.

You do realize that the turret on the Merkava 4 is modular in design.
The crew is protected by a blast proof door at the tank round access point that works and has saved lives.

You should use caution what you pick up on line, that link is set up for war gamers and I know for a fact that some of the information is false.

You have your views and i have mine. Funny that you should say that this is false information. Go tell that to Zraver on Worldaffairsboard.com and he will tear you a new one. Why is it that so many Merkava's have been knocked out? Also the blast proof door, does not make up for individually combustible cannisters, It is still a crew killer.

If Zraver has a account on here i would love to here sergeants go at it.:)

So, you think that there is no problem with the engine in the front?
The engine is the Second most important part to protect on the tank, after the Crew.

You should use caution what you pick up on line, that link is set up for war gamers and I know for a fact that some of the information is false.

I got this information from Zraver on Worldaffairsboard.com, he is a tank sergeant/with a actual tank background. Argue about this with him, cause i can guarantee you will lose. People have already tried and numerous have failed, i would love to hear you "sergeants" argue about it. Do you actually have a tank background?

[eckherl]

You have your views and i have mine. Funny that you should say that this is false information. Go tell that to Zraver on Worldaffairsboard.com and he will tear you a new one. Why is it that so many Merkava's have been knocked out? Also the blast proof door, does not make up for individually combustible cannisters, It is still a crew killer.

If Zraver has a account on here i would love to here sergeants go at it.:)

So, you think that there is no problem with the engine in the front?
The engine is the Second most important part to protect on the tank, after the Crew.

And just how many Merkavas have been knocked out.
The blast proof door does what it is designed to do, contain a blast. What is killing the crews, fumes from the smoke in which the same thing will happen to a M1 series if the over pressure system is not turned on or if the turret hatches are not secured, to call the ammunition storage system flawed is calling most tanks out there flawed due to storage of ammunition inside of the hull, that is something that I would not have a argument on.
The IDF believes in the concept of the engine pact at the front of the hull for the best protection rating for the crew, this also offers them the ability to add additional tank ammunition which is important when fighting in a defensive position, ya know that they really do not have a large amount of real estate to play with in the event of a war, being in a hull down fighting position will only add to the crew protection factor along with the engine pact. The Merkava was not initially designed to be a offensive platform like the M1 or Leo series as a few examples I will mention. For the terrian that the Merkava series will most likely be called to fight in I would preferr that over my trusty M1A2 tank. Think about these factors:

1. Size of country
2. Opponents
3. Terrain
4. Experience, and they have lost alot of tanks in past wars.

If you really look at these factors you will understand why a past IDF general designed this magnifacent iron chariot like he did.

And yes - I guess you can say I may have a little experience in armor.

That information has been passed around and for the most part is nothing but pure BS.

[Rossiman]

And just how many Merkavas have been knocked out.
The blast proof door does what it is designed to do, contain a blast. What is killing the crews, fumes from the smoke in which the same thing will happen to a M1 series if the over pressure system is not turned on or if the turret hatches are not secured, to call the ammunition storage system flawed is calling most tanks out there flawed due to storage of ammunition inside of the hull, that is something that I would not have a argument on.
The IDF believes in the concept of the engine pact at the front of the hull for the best protection rating for the crew, this also offers them the ability to add additional tank ammunition which is important when fighting in a defensive position, ya know that they really do not have a large amount of real estate to play with in the event of a war, being in a hull down fighting position will only add to the crew protection factor along with the engine pact. The Merkava was not initially designed to be a offensive platform like the M1 or Leo series as a few examples I will mention. For the terrian that the Merkava series will most likely be called to fight in I would preferr that over my trusty M1A2 tank. Think about these factors:

1. Size of country
2. Opponents
3. Terrain
4. Experience, and they have lost alot of tanks in past wars.

If you really look at these factors you will understand why a past IDF general designed this magnifacent iron chariot like he did.

And yes - I guess you can say I may have a little experience in armor.
You do have a point, but just a few questions i have. What is the difference in using blast proof doors over blow out panels?

M1A2
The stowage for the main armament ammunition is in armored ammunition boxes behind sliding armor doors. Armor bulkheads separate the crew compartment from the fuel tanks. The tank is equipped with an automatic Halon fire extinguishing system. This system automatically activates within 2 milliseconds of either a flash or a fire within the various compartments of the vehicle. The top panels of the tank are designed to blow outwards in the event of penetration by a HEAT projectile.

What is your view on the Merkeva's blast proof doors and individually separated canisters that are fire proof but not armored?

3 Merkevas where completley destroyed in Lebannon in 2006. While dozens where penetrated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyxC_eOcwg8&feature=related

I have no problem being corrected, but i would like to be treated with a little more respect. Saying that i am a "internet cowboy" with a major malfunction...

[eckherl]

You have some persuasive words, but just a few questions i have. What is the difference in using blast proof doors over blow out panels.

3 Merkevas where completley destroyed in Lebannon in 2006. While dozens where penetrated.

Merkava only uses a blast proof door to contain the blast from tank ammunition cook offs, while the M1 series uses blast proof doors and blow out panels, yes the blow off panels will divert the ammunition cook offs through the turret top which is a added bonus for the crew safety and it is a better system. Other benefits are the ease of replacing the racks and getting the tank back into combat which is a design feature, look at a loaders exposer when the access/blast proof door is opened on a M1 series, depending on where he grabs the next round he will have a average of 22 aft caps staring him in the face while a Merkava loader has one with the access door opened.

Who gave you those figures on the battlefield losses.

Also I think you should do the right thing and give someone on this forum a apology for that BS stunt that you pulled on Tanknet, that person has served his country with honor and you should be a shamed of yourself. I bet if your buddy Zraver knew about that stunt he would be pissed.

[gf0012-aust]

You do have a point,

Perhaps you should ask Eckherl what his background is?

Also I think you should do the right thing and give someone on this forum a apology for that BS stunt that you pulled on Tanknet, that person has served his country with honor and you should be a shamed of yourself. I bet if your buddy Zraver knew about that stunt he would be pissed.

Rossiman, you need to seriously consider the above comment. News travels fast -esp between Mods. Ironduke is a member in here, and a few DT members are registered with WAF

[Rossiman]

Merkava only uses a blast proof door to contain the blast from tank ammunition cook offs, while the M1 series uses blast proof doors and blow out panels, yes the blow off panels will divert the ammunition cook offs through the turret top which is a added bonus for the crew safety and it is a better system. Other benefits are the ease of replacing the racks and getting the tank back into combat which is a design feature, look at a loaders exposer when the access/blast proof door is opened on a M1 series, depending on where he grabs the next round he will have a average of 22 aft caps staring him in the face while a Merkava loader has one with the access door opened.

Who gave you those figures on the battlefield losses.

Also I think you should do the right thing and give someone on this forum a apology for that BS stunt that you pulled on Tanknet, that person has served his country with honor and you should be a shamed of yourself. I bet if your buddy Zraver knew about that stunt he would be pissed.

I already gave a public apology. And thanks for the information on the blow out panels. I already knew how they worked, but its a little refreshing =).

[eckherl]

I already gave a public apology. And thanks for the information on the blow out panels. I already knew how they worked, but its a little refreshing =).

Thank you, that is very noble of you and I apologize for calling you a internet cowboy with a major malfunction.:D

Figured that you knew about the top panels, but do you understand how the ammunition access point contain the round cook offs, that is what the armor protection level in regards to the door is based on.

[Rossiman]

Thank you, that is very noble of you and I apologize for calling you a internet cowboy with a major malfunction.:D

Figured that you knew about the top panels, but do you understand how the ammunition access point contain the round cook offs, that is what the armor protection level in regards to the door is based on.

And thank you for your apologizes. Yes, you explained it to me well.;)

[Gripenator]

A point of interest here, a few months ago on Yahoo news I noticed an article about Hezbollah claiming some sort of victory in 2006 and apparently they set up a museum where a captured Merkava tank (or replica) was placed. I don't have the link but I understand that the IDF is unlikely to let senstive equipment like that fall into the hands of a non state organization especially when that organization can just sell it to Syria or Iran for "evaluation". The only case where I beleive this could happen was if the Merkava MBT in question was the obsolete 80's 'I' variant and even then it seems doubtful. Does anyone know anything about this?

[Waylander]

If this is the "Merk" I think you mean than it is a replica.
All damaged/destroyed IDF vehicles were recovered or destroyed.

Hizbollah once build one for commercial reasons (Respectable though).
The various commercials floating around are sometimes really good quality for a militia and when one lookes at the equipment they are equipped with (weapons, bordy armor. commo/observation equipment, heck they even operated their own drones during the conflict) one has to say that they seem to nearly play in the same league like regular light infantry and not perform like some kind of ad hoc militia.

Edit: Muhahaha I just saw that Rossiman even created a third account at Tank-Net.
One has to say he doesn't give up very easy. :D

[eaf-f16]

A point of interest here, a few months ago on Yahoo news I noticed an article about Hezbollah claiming some sort of victory in 2006 and apparently they set up a museum where a captured Merkava tank (or replica) was placed. I don't have the link but I understand that the IDF is unlikely to let senstive equipment like that fall into the hands of a non state organization especially when that organization can just sell it to Syria or Iran for "evaluation". The only case where I beleive this could happen was if the Merkava MBT in question was the obsolete 80's 'I' variant and even then it seems doubtful. Does anyone know anything about this?

I highly doubt it was a Merkeva. I think it was one of those Israeli APC's placed on a T-50 tank chassis but I'm not sure though.

[eckherl]

If this is the "Merk" I think you mean than it is a replica.
All damaged/destroyed IDF vehicles were recovered or destroyed.

Hizbollah once build one for commercial reasons (Respectable though).
The various commercials floating around are sometimes really good quality for a militia and when one lookes at the equipment they are equipped with (weapons, bordy armor. commo/observation equipment, heck they even operated their own drones during the conflict) one has to say that they seem to nearly play in the same league like regular light infantry and not perform like some kind of ad hoc militia.

Edit: Muhahaha I just saw that Rossiman even created a third account at Tank-Net.
One has to say he doesn't give up very easy. :D

Your are correct, it is just a replica. I have a photo of it somewhere and I will dig it up, picture shows it mocked up to where it sustained IED destruction.

[DavidDCM]

Yes, the "Merkava" that Hezbollah displays is a mocked-up T-55.

Image-link (http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2989/735d7ed1es1.jpg)

Maybe they even have some more, cause they also showed a "Merkava-T-55" in one of their propaganda movies:

image (http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/135/t55merkavalookalikehezbih1.jpg)

[Waylander]

Jup, those are the ones I have also seen.
Defenitely good work!

[eckherl]

Yes, the "Merkava" that Hezbollah displays is a mocked-up T-55.

Image-link (http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2989/735d7ed1es1.jpg)

Maybe they even have some more, cause they also showed a "Merkava-T-55" in one of their propaganda movies:

image (http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/135/t55merkavalookalikehezbih1.jpg)

Yes - the destroyed one is what have.

[caspianfish]

Last year there was an agreement between President Aliev and Israeli officials in Baku,Azerbaijan.The meeting hold at Presidents Palace including high-ranked members of Azerbaijan army.

Azerbaijan received a military support from Israel and gave a lot for it to Israel.They got Merkava tanks with Israeli instructors and these tanks are stationed in Baku Garrison to protect the President not the country.Azerbaijani officials think to use it under control of Presidential Gurads in case if any kind of rebellious acts occurs in Baku or other major cities.

What they gave to Israel? They gave a full access to IDF for using the Kurdamir aerodrome which is not so far from Iran-Azerbaijan border.There is also a special permit granted by President Aliev which allows the Israeli agents work in Azerbaijan.

[Waylander]

Any sources?

Which kind of Merkava? And how many of them?

[caspianfish]

I met Lieutenant Mammadov in August 2007 at Army Engineering Corps Training Center in Narlıdere,Izmir.Its the place ( Central Command of Army Engineering School and Training ) where I finished my 15 months military service.Lieutenant Mammadov was a special purpose squad commander at State Protection Service in Azerbaijan.He expalined that with the help of Israels ambassador in Baku they founded a special task force in order to use against any kind of rebellious acts against the Aliev regime.

There are 25 Merkava Mark III MBT,Remington 700 rifles,German MG-3,G3A3,MP5 in use of State Protection Service.They just want to get rid of old Soviet equipment and get ready against possible civil war or revolution.

According to the decision of President Alievs personel protection head General Eyyubov The SPS establishes special purpose squads.Each squad supported with 2 Merkava and Cobra APC from Turkey.Also 5 of Merkavas are always ready to protect the Presidential Palace.

Thats what he told and explained me.I was also surprised when I heard it but they really work good on this with Israel.

Now they are spending millions to buy jammers and some electronic equipments from Israeli companies.

[eckherl]

I met Lieutenant Mammadov in August 2007 at Army Engineering Corps Training Center in Narlıdere,Izmir.Its the place ( Central Command of Army Engineering School and Training ) where I finished my 15 months military service.Lieutenant Mammadov was a special purpose squad commander at State Protection Service in Azerbaijan.He expalined that with the help of Israels ambassador in Baku they founded a special task force in order to use against any kind of rebellious acts against the Aliev regime.

There are 25 Merkava Mark III MBT,Remington 700 rifles,German MG-3,G3A3,MP5 in use of State Protection Service.They just want to get rid of old Soviet equipment and get ready against possible civil war or revolution.

According to the decision of President Alievs personel protection head General Eyyubov The SPS establishes special purpose squads.Each squad supported with 2 Merkava and Cobra APC from Turkey.Also 5 of Merkavas are always ready to protect the Presidential Palace.

Thats what he told and explained me.I was also surprised when I heard it but they really work good on this with Israel.

Now they are spending millions to buy jammers and some electronic equipments from Israeli companies.

Could you please provide additional information to the Merkava 3, this doesn`t make any sense to me that they would purchase them due to the fact of current weapons procurements that are coming out of Russia and Ukraine, what - are they stating that they are spending millions of dollars on nothing but Russian garbage. 25 tanks give them 2.5 companies worth of vehicles, why 25. If their President has to rely on tanks for personal protection from his own military then he has some major issues.

[caspianfish]

First of all I never said that I sold Merkava tanks to Azerbaijan.I just wrote what I heard from Mammadov.so no need to laugh or make fun of it.They got tanks for SPS not for Azerbaijan Army.Also its not an official purchase..Its a military help for what Israel got from Azerbaijan.

Aliev gave more rights to the Mountain Jews in Quba,Azerbaijan.
There are some oil fields given to the Israeli companies.
All security projects given to the Israeli companies.
Israel got and aerodrome in Azerbaijan.

Not to forget..Azerbaijan is the only one Muslim country where the Jews and Muslims live in peace more than 100 years.

[SABRE]

Not to forget..Azerbaijan is the only one Muslim country where the Jews and Muslims live in peace more than 100 years.

Not to get too political & religious but Jews & Muslims have lived peacefully for 1400 years till the creation of Israel. Ready History of Crusades, Ottoman Empire & Muslim Spain.

Anyways, there are reports circulating in Pakistan that Azerbaijan is interested in Pakistani Tanks (Don't know whether Al-Khalid or Al-Zarar). They also signed an MoU on small weapons & are interested in purchase of 24 to 26 JF-17s. If Azerbaijan got Markeva than I don't know why they are looking into Pakistani tanks (if both reports are right that is).

[Soner1980]

My uncle served his campaign in Azerbaijan as an captain. He is from the signal division in the Turkish Army. (Radio and communications)

He told me that the Azeri Army met the 60% of the NATO requirements and Turkey has only an advise team of platoon size unit stationed in Azerbaijan. (2006)

The biggest arms supplier is Ukraine he told me selling 17 MiG-29's, T-72's, BTR's, 300mm Smerch MLRS's etc.. But not a single Merkava entered Azeri territory. There are many rumors about Israeli weapons, but only the smaller arms entered from Israel, Turkey, USA, Ukraine, Bello Rus entered Azerbaijan. The Pakistani's together with Turkish defensive firms will help to set up the former Soviet weapons factury in operational status. Turkish Aselsan and Roketsan will give some support and also some other Pakistani factories will do. Azerbaijan will have their own armored fighting vehicle production line, possibly built under license in the beginning...

And for those who claims only Azerbaijan was a Jew friend. No, also Turkey and the Ottoman Empire helped a lot of fleeing Jews from Spannish pressure and the Muslim Ottoman gave the Jews the freedom of religion. Also Azeri's what was Ottoman soil in the past.

Who liked my story???

[Yasin20]

this is verry new for me verry interesting when did you get this info