Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank

[Titanium]

www.idrw.org / Indian Defense Research Wing (http://www.idrw.org/2007/11/13/indian_army_seeks_next_generation_battle_tank.html )

The Indian Army has sought a new generation main battle tank (MBT) even as it reluctantly prepares to receive the homegrown Arjun tank that has been over three decades in the making.

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

'I have no doubt that the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) will be able to develop indigenous capabilities for coming up with a better answer and more versatile armoured fighting vehicle (than Arjun) in the future,' he added while speaking at the inaugural session of an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles, the first to be held here.

Kapoor also called for synergy between scientists, users and producers to ensure the delivery of a cutting-edge-technology tank.

'The scientists cannot work in isolation. The users (the army) should be with them. So also should the producers, be they the public sector undertakings or private players. Only then will we see an indigenous armoured fighting vehicle of international quality,' the army chief maintained.

Kapoor's remarks were a clear indication that even as the Indian Army prepares to induct its first squadron of 14 Arjuns, it is not too happy with the tank.:

These tanks, in fact, had been handed over for user trials last year and were returned to the manufacturer -- the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment -- with a list of defects that have now apparently been ironed out.

These include a deficient

fire control system,
inaccuracy of its guns,
low speeds in tactical areas -- principally deserts --
and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.



The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.

Is this start of a new tank development in the 40 tonne range? It cannot be the same tank with lower weight!

Added on 26 Nov:
DefenseNews.com - India Tackles Second Tank Design Project - 11/26/07 17:19 (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3196879&C=asiapac)

NEW DELHI — India plans to design another main battle tank for future Army requirements, its second such attempt after a 30-year effort to develop the Arjun, which failed to meet requirements.

The state-owned Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) has initiated the design and development of the Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), intended to fulfill the original role of the Arjun and replace aging Russian T-72 tanks, a senior CVRDE scientist said.
CVRDE is India’s only tank development agency, operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO will form a consortium to design and develop the FMBT. CRDRE has short-listed the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, as its development partner, and will also seek partnership with two unidentified private companies.
The CVRDE scientist said full development will begin in April. DRDO will fund 50 percent of the cost with the partners paying for the rest. Six prototypes will be developed in seven years, and bulk production is planned from 2020.

The FMBT will weigh 40 tons and feature a 125mm gun, the CVRDE scientist said. Advanced features will include the ability to fire kinetic weapons and missiles, an active protection system, and hybrid armor to defeat improvised explosive devices.

[Titanium]

Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks (http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200711131908.htm)

New Delhi (PTI): The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run of the original model Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

Defence scientists are also working on the Tank X project comprising features of Arjun and Russian-supplied T-72 tanks.

The function organised by the CII was presided over by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, who asked Indian companies to invest and participate more in production of weapons systems.

[indian bull]

a good news about future of indian tanks:-
Indian developers are believed to have come up with a revolutionary 'honey comb' design for the NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armour) Armour and, according to our sources, is said to be performing 'perfectly'.

NERA is a reactive armour which works like any explosive reactive armour but with the crucial difference being the using of energy in form of a charge instead of explosives. Israel, America are reportedly interested in seeking access to this technology.

[surya]

y dont the army start looking out for an alternative.army chief has spoken about its incapabilities.y dont they drop the acquisition plans of arjun.

[indian bull]

y dont the army start looking out for an alternative.army chief has spoken about its incapabilities.y dont they drop the acquisition plans of arjun.

see this:- In summer 2006, firing trials established, in the words of the army’s own trial team, that the "accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was (sic) proved beyond doubt". Later, the MoD stated to Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence that, "Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to the other two tanks." This summer, the army raised another objection: the Arjun should be able to drive for 20 minutes in six feet of water. The CVRDE has managed that as well.
At the Arjun test track at Avadi, I drove the tank for an hour over a series of obstacles that would stretch any tank in the world. The Arjun’s chronic problems with the suspension and with overheating were nowhere in evidence. While this hardly constituted a serious trial, the Arjun surely deserves to be put through comparative trials, if only to empirically determine which of India’s options is the best. This is especially important in the light of many reports that the T-90 is facing serious problems with its electronics in the desert heat. The army is planning to air-condition all its T-90s, a situation that is unlikely to work.
For now, despite the Arjun turnaround, its future seems uncertain. From October 07, the army will put the tank through trials; without the baseline parameters that would have been provided by the T-72 and the T-90 in comparative trials, its designers fear that the tank could be accepted or rejected based on arbitrary criteria.
If there is a silver lining in the dark clouds over the Arjun, it is in the fact that army officers and jawans who are involved in the tank’s development and trials are developing confidence in the Arjun. Once the tank enters service, this constituency could grow in size and influence. As Secretary of Defence Production, KP Singh observed, “When the army uses this tank, who is to say what they think about it. God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only. Who knows?”

http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs/
http://www.*************.com/reports/3098
http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/13/stories/2007051301111000.htm
Induction of the new Arjun Tanks which was being delayed by Indian Army successfully passed all tests. Indian Army delayed the induction of the 9 Arjun Tanks by giving reason that Arjun Tank should have medium fording capability. Defence research and Development Organisation pointed out that Arjun Tank already has the capability of medium fording and could remain in medium waters for more than 20 minutes against just 3 minutes of T-72 kind of tanks. The Arjun Tank Radiator is capable of using water as a cooling agent when medium fording, where as, the T-72 radiator is shut off during medium fording resulting in rise in engine temperature. Even without modifications Arjun Tanks collects only 5-10 liters of water inside in those 15 and more minutes which is of no consequence. Barring some minor instances Indian Army never had to medium ford in both western and eastern borders in 1971. The modifications are more of time consuming mechanical in nature. Indian Army wanted complete ceiling which DRDO promised in future makes.

However, the visit of the defense minister to the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi, changed all that. But the Arjun Tank comparative trials which was due in July has been pushed to September and this will again effect the production schedule. This time the production delay is not any more attributed to DRDO.
http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-finds-no-major-defects-with-arjun-tank-during-ex-ashvamegh/
Indian Army finds no major defects with Arjun Tank during Ex Ashvamegh
Written on May 19, 2007 – 5:53 pm | by FIDSNS | 19 May, 2007, (FIDSNS)

Excercise Ashvamegh results are out. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has now formal results of the Arjun MBT performance. Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) has a copy Army’s report on Arjun Tank as a user feedback.

The report states that, Indian Army had Seven Arjun Tanks during Excercise Ashvamegh ,i.e, 5 LSP’s (limited series) and 2 PPS (pre production). Six Arjun Tanks participated in the excercise. The cumulative distance travelled by Arjun Tank in the excercise is 180 kilometers. All the Tanks had (inner) air getting dirty faster remark and one PPS tank had maintainence related minor issue of engine oil leak and end connector getting loose.

Indian Army observations as recorded in the document

a) No major problems faced during Ex-Ashvamegh.
b) No other defects found during Ex-Ashvamegh.

On asked about the Arjuns Tanks minor issues that croped up during Ex Ashvamegh , FIDSNS was told that the LSP’s and PPS’s had run a cumulative distance of 1000

[Titanium]

Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks (http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/002200711131908.htm)

New Delhi (PTI): The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run :unknown of the original model Arjun.

.

What exactly successful run of Arjun here? Hardly 15 Tanks till day has been manufactured and Army want New Tank.

Is he just being charitable to DRDO?

[funtz]

I dont think there is anything like the original model of arjun, right now the design seems to have been frozen and all the work will be done on that design, so the next version might not be too different, as it is the T-90 is not going anywhere till 2030, and a lot of them have already been on order before the arjun even completed the development stage.

The Army will make sure they do not get arjun in huge numbers to keep things simple.
The DRDO + defense ministry will try to shove some down.
DRDO is looking for private firms to partner in the indigenous Engine development for Arjun.

The next step as it seems from my newspaper knowledge seems to be active participation of the private players like L&T, TATA, M&M etc. that will fuel the next major developments, and as the environment will be more competitive the effectiveness might get better, as opposed to a government owened and run structure where there is no compitition to preform.

Is this the new Arjun thread? i thought there were two on arjun already.

[Titanium]

Is this the new Arjun thread? i thought there were two on arjun already.

No it is not new Arjun thread, it seems that Army wants New tank not the 58 Ton Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.


This may be indication of new tank in the class to 40 Ton range...

Well the Arjun seems to be History now going by the General's Statement:

'What we have today is mid-level technology. :confused: What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

[funtz]

The

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

Depends on what do you consider to be a international standard, if USA etc. are the standards then even the T-90 might not fit in as it is a completly different tank. If Russian tanks are the standard then it is another ball game.

If the standard is in the question then again there are some questions, the FCS, engine etc. etc. are all imported or made with collabiration (esp. Israeli help)
so the question is integration and customisation for local conditions, which leaves the armour, if that lacks in quality even when the tank weighs as much as it does, making tanks might just prove to be a tough deal and should be promptly abandoned with a public apology to the tax payer.


Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

As for a light lank, it depends on how light the respected chief of army staff wishes his tanks to be,
if he wants a 'light tank' he might find it hard to justify it as a MBT as long as the gun packs a deadly punch and the armour performs to amazing levels of satisfaction
if he is after the T-90 weight then yes it beats the armour goal that was revised on the insructions of the army (along with the main gun), i think the army is desperate to get the ministry on board with T-90 /T-72 concept and i fail to see why this can not be allowed.

Any design change will not result in another time gap between the requirement and the delivery and again the army will update the parameters midway resulting in longer delays.

Originally Arjun was a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun, this whole project seemed to have been changed due to the evolving requirements of the Army into a 50-60 ton tank, now if they go back to the 40 ton deal it might be a bit too hilarious for me :D and DRDO

Arjun Mk2 - The Futuristic MBT
Current design of the Arjun Tanks has been frozen to enable production. Arjun Tank in the next phase will see comparatively major changes. It could be called as Futuristic MBT.

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt/
This has been around for some time now

As for a complete design change etc. etc. it will come into induction by the time T-72 upgrades turn into junk (judging by the additional orders for T-90that come into the news every time there is a indo Russian meet) , which might be 2020-30, so if it is so then we might be better off sharing the development costs and efforts with another nation like Russia or Israel.

[qwerty223]

The Indian Army always confuse me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commision. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commision sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

[mysterious]

What effects would the 50-60 ton Arjun have on the Indian armour's performance on its western front since the area is marked by soft sub-soil & water-logged areas which are unsuitable for mammoths?

[indian bull]

The Indian Army always confuse me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commision. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commision sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

well it seems that there are some vested interests of some people who dont want to induct arjun, i have posted some links see them. why army is refusing for comparative trials of arjun? why becoz arjun in previous trials has prooved to be more effective and accurate than t-90,it can withstand high tempratures can walk through waters longer than t-90, has night vision and it lies in the category of heavy mbts like us challenger, it has prooven its efficacy in deserts of rajasthan, even electronics of t-90 and its barrell is not effective in deserts.WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS TURNING BLIND EYE ON ARJUN, nobody knows?

[funtz]

What effects would the 50-60 ton Arjun have on the Indian armour's performance on its western front since the area is marked by soft sub-soil & water-logged areas which are unsuitable for mammoths?

The Indian Army always confuses me. At a time, they say Arjun, which is developed for their future need, had now close to commission. Later they say they cant wait and therefore ordered T-90.Then Arjun II is again ready, and said to be set for commission sooner or later. Then now they again "seek" for next gen tank. What are they up to?

I think the question should be the ground pressure that the tank exerts on the surface more than the actual weight and the power to weight ratio that the tank has to power the said tonnage, and more important is the actual doctrine/strategy that the army will go with during the actual hostile scenario and the only way to do that is to talk with someone involved in the whole thing or to study the previous engagements and see how they have evolved in the recent exercises to get to an opinion. Water logged areas are equally troublesome for all things, the weight will have very little effect there, until one can hover over them.


The Army has given clear indications that it wants similar platforms that simplify training, maintenance, operations of the tanks, a upgraded T-72 and a T-90 fulfill this role as of now and the next generation of tanks will take a long time, there will be constant additions on to the platforms (technological), as for the Arjun well if the MoD has its way only then it will be seen serving in numbers.

As for the next generation tank well it can only be worked on once the Arjun platform has matured.

[Izzy1]

I think the question should be the ground pressure that the tank exerts on the surface more than the actual weight and the power to weight ratio that the tank has to power the said tonnage, and more important is the actual doctrine/strategy that the army will go with during the actual hostile scenario and the only way to do that is to talk with someone involved in the whole thing or to study the previous engagements and see how they have evolved in the recent exercises to get to an opinion. Water logged areas are equally troublesome for all things, the weight will have very little effect there, until one can hover over them.


The Army has given clear indications that it wants similar platforms that simplify training, maintenance, operations of the tanks, a upgraded T-72 and a T-90 fulfill this role as of now and the next generation of tanks will take a long time, there will be constant additions on to the platforms (technological), as for the Arjun well if the MoD has its way only then it will be seen serving in numbers.

As for the next generation tank well it can only be worked on once the Arjun platform has matured.

funtz Seriously, do you work in the defence field? Serious question??

[funtz]

no sir as i said in the profile just your average industrial safety engineer currently out of work willing to frustrate everyone with C grade civilian opinion. The only interest stems from my family, half of them are in the Army while i stay at home and make more of us warriors :onfloorl: (a tradition thing, some one from similar culture will understand).

Why, did i throw one too many tall tales.

[Izzy1]

no sir as i said in the profile just your average industrial safety engineer currently out of work willing to frustrate everyone with C grade civilian opinion. The only interest stems from my family, half of them are in the Army while i stay at home and make more of us warriors :onfloorl: (a tradition thing, some one from similar culture will understand).

Why, did i throw one too many tall tales.

Funtz

Dare I say - your its biggest advocate on here. I think its an early Leopard II design.

Your the Salesman - sell it me...

[funtz]

Funtz

Dare I say - your its biggest advocate on here. I think its an early Leopard II design.

Your the Salesman - sell it me...

Naa i am just taking the temporary role of defending the poor beast, their have been discussions on this forum for a long time about every thing including the Arjun tank.

If i am the salesman, the guy who gave me the job ought to be fired,
from what it seems like to me, no sales will be effective till the cost is controlled through acquiring required license to produce all of the imported equipment at home and to use it on MBT's that might be used for exports, if only the project finished at time there was a huge requirement right here in the Indian army, something that will continue to be their, which should fuel further developments of required technology.

As for the early Leopard - II design, may well be if they look similar, the important thing i will never get access to will be the performance of the Kanchan armor under fire - effectiveness/accuracy/damage of the gun+fire control system at different conditions, performance in those deserts, etc. etc. so well all i have to go by are rumors in the media which swing in extremes.
Its just a MBT, what seems to be more important is what the Army wants based on what they know they will do or face in hostile situations, and how a MBT fits into it, if there is a problem in the way the army thinks, you need a miracle or a opponent who is on the same level.

[Titanium]

The

Depends on what do you consider to be a international standard, if USA etc. are the standards then even the T-90 might not fit in as it is a completly different tank. If Russian tanks are the standard then it is another ball game.


Well it is not upto me to consider, but it is General's opinion, which again is based on the avasilable tanks in Indian Armour, i.e T-72 and T-90. So according to Army chief Arjun is medium tech compared to T-72 and T-90.

If the standard is in the question then again there are some questions, the FCS, engine etc. etc. are all imported or made with collabiration (esp. Israeli help)
so the question is integration and customisation for local conditions, which leaves the armour, if that lacks in quality even when the tank weighs as much as it does, making tanks might just prove to be a tough deal and should be promptly abandoned with a public apology to the tax payer.

Completely agree with you...

[indian bull]

Naa i am just taking the temporary role of defending the poor beast, their have been discussions on this forum for a long time about every thing including the Arjun tank.

If i am the salesman, the guy who gave me the job ought to be fired,
from what it seems like to me, no sales will be effective till the cost is controlled through acquiring required license to produce all of the imported equipment at home and to use it on MBT's that might be used for exports, if only the project finished at time there was a huge requirement right here in the Indian army, something that will continue to be their, which should fuel further developments of required technology.

As for the early Leopard - II design, may well be if they look similar, the important thing i will never get access to will be the performance of the Kanchan armor under fire - effectiveness/accuracy/damage of the gun+fire control system at different conditions, performance in those deserts, etc. etc. so well all i have to go by are rumors in the media which swing in extremes.
Its just a MBT, what seems to be more important is what the Army wants based on what they know they will do or face in hostile situations, and how a MBT fits into it, if there is a problem in the way the army thinks, you need a miracle or a opponent who is on the same level.

I think the main advantage of developing these weapons is reduced dependency on other nations, in emergency war scenarios like what happened in 1999 kargil war. In case if pakistan attacks us[very much possible] and nations like US, RUSSIA,ISRAEL[under huge influence of US] refuse or demand high costs from us,we wouldnt have to look at their faces for mercy. I am a big supporter of DRDO efforts and these efforts should continue and should be intensified. At the least these continued efforts of drdo have helped us in bulding nukes and missiles and now the drdo is getting mature in r&d with advancing time. Do u know funtz when drdo started working on most weapon systems in 1980s it started from a scratch, it started from the abc in the tank and other weapons development.
also regarding development of tank engine tell me which company TATA or L&T is more capable. TATAs have developed a supercomputer which is in world's top 10 this shows their immense capabilities also Larsen and Tubro have developed platform for Dhanush missile for IN, they are also pretty much capable, whatz ur view funtz?

[Titanium]

well it seems that there are some vested interests of some people who dont want to induct arjun, i have posted some links see them. why army is refusing for comparative trials of arjun? why becoz arjun in previous trials has prooved to be more effective and accurate than t-90,it can withstand high tempratures can walk through waters longer than t-90, has night vision and it lies in the category of heavy mbts like us challenger, it has prooven its efficacy in deserts of rajasthan, even electronics of t-90 and its barrell is not effective in deserts.WHY THE INDIAN ARMY IS TURNING BLIND EYE ON ARJUN, nobody knows?

Are you referring to Army chief Gen Kapoor? Is he not interested in inducting Arjun? Well there seems to be something wrong either with Arjun or the Army Officer. I will more inclined to believe what Gen.Kapoor is saying....:rolleyes:

[indian bull]

[QUOTE=Titanium;122249]Well it is not upto me to consider, but it is General's opinion, which again is based on the avasilable tanks in Indian Armour, i.e T-72 and T-90. So according to Army chief Arjun is medium tech compared to T-72 and T-90.



Completely disagree with you..

1.T-72 doesnt even have night vision capability, it is inferior to arjun.
2. If drdo stops its r&d we will lag behind others.
3. we should continue developing Arjun 2 and Tank x.
4. we should make efforts to earn more and pay more tax for these programmes to acheive self sufficiency.
5. The efforts for advanced weapons development should continue as we would cease to exist without our nukes, missiles and other weapons and ofcourse without our brave soldeirs.

[indian bull]

Are you referring to Army chief Gen Kapoor? Is he not interested in inducting Arjun? Well there seems to be something wrong either with Arjun or the Army Officer. I will more inclined to believe what Gen.Kapoor is saying....:rolleyes:

I have posted links already above please go and study them. Well there are always lots of vested interests in defence deals, lots of money is paid as commission. Why not, lots of beaurocrats, politicians and even army people are involved in this market. you must have heard about scams in bofors, barak system
and many other deals.

[Titanium]

Completely disagree with you..



You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.

[indian bull]

You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:



Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.

And u are by the side of army cheif?

Economically, millitarily, technologically INDIA is on a BULL RUN.
BE BRAVE BE INDIAN[not a kanjus(mean) tax payer, be ready to sacrifice last drop of your blood for ur motherland.]
(Sura so pehchaniye jo lare din ke het, Purza purza kat mare kabhon na chade khet). ...
(Those are brave who fight for humanity,even when cut into peices they never leave the battlefield)
Sura(shoorveer)(brave)
din(humanity)
purza(peices)
kabhon(never)
chade(leaves)
khet(battlefeild)

[funtz]

You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:

Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.

Ya mate that is the confusion here, what international technology, British American or Russians, if he was comparing Arjun to a T-90 then the problem is that such a comparison can not work they are both leagues apart that utilize different methods, The initial T-90s had their share of problems, i think he was comparing the Arjun with American and British tanks and his comments signify what might be a change in the soviet doctrine of warfare in which case well thats good about bloody time.

The real reason for the above stated comment by the Chief of Army staff is to stop the government form pushing the tank down the ranks, i mean the army has made its mind about a armor that is mostly T-90 and T-72(upgraded), and the army is fighting tooth and nail to protect this,
Remember the tank trials that were canceled by the Army, i mean that would have shut the MoD once and for all, however the problem was had Arjun compared up with T-72 and T-90 even bettered them in some aspects and that would have caused a problem for the army.
Its really not all that complicated.

As for the decision, its for the Army to decide after all they have to use it.


And i might add the Arjun tank project has seen its fair share of chief of army staff come and go so i do not know whose opinion will prevail, Army chief or posters here or MoD there.
:onfloorl:

[indian bull]

Ya mate that is the confusion here, what international technology, British American or Russians, if he was comparing Arjun to a T-90 then the problem is that such a comparison can not work they are both leagues apart that utilize different methods, The initial T-90s had their share of problems, i think he was comparing the Arjun with American and British tanks and his comments signify what might be a change in the soviet doctrine of warfare in which case well thats good about bloody time.

The real reason for the above stated comment by the Chief of Army staff is to stop the government form pushing the tank down the ranks, i mean the army has made its mind about a armor that is mostly T-90 and T-72(upgraded), and the army is fighting tooth and nail to protect this,
Remember the tank trials that were canceled by the Army, i mean that would have shut the MoD once and for all, however the problem was had Arjun compared up with T-72 and T-90 even bettered them in some aspects and that would have caused a problem for the army.
Its really not all that complicated.

As for the decision, its for the Army to decide after all they have to use it.


And i might add the Arjun tank project has seen its fair share of chief of army staff come and go so i do not know whose opinion will prevail, Army chief or posters here or MoD there.
:onfloorl:

see this :-http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070025577&ch=9/9/2007+9:17:00+PM
Arjun tank's comparative trials called off



Ajai Shukla
Sunday, September 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
For three decades, India's Arjun tank project has struggled and has been scoffed at by experts and dismissed by the army.

The army, in fact, refused to accept the tank into service until comparative trials were held pitting the Arjun against the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.

But now, mysteriously the army has asked the Ministry of Defence to call off the comparative trials.

The T-72 has proved itself over years, says the army, and the T-90 is even better - only the Arjun needs to prove itself.

Meanwhile, the army is going ahead with buying 347 more T-90s paying a billion dollars to Russia. The army chief will be visiting Russia next week and the defence minister will follow next month.

The MoD itself had insisted on comparative trials before this turnaround. Now it says that you can't compare a 46-tonne T-90 with a 60-tonne Arjun.

But the men who built the tank in the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment in Chennai believe that's just an excuse to avoid comparative trials which would prove that Arjun is the best tank.

''People have been asking that question, how can you compare a 40 tonne class tank with a 60 tonne class tank, and I think the golden question is that irrespective of the weight and other features, if one is given a choice as to which tank he'd like to ride to battle, which tank would you choose?'' said Major General HM Singh, Additional DG, CVRDE.

This competitiveness is a sign of the Arjun's new confidence. After three decades of public criticism, the Arjun seems to have ironed out its defects.

''Over a period of five years, we have evaluated this tank in the deserts of Rajasthan. We have evaluated over 70,000 km of cumulative run with 15 tanks we have fired over 10,000 rounds,'' said R Jayakumar, Associate Director, CVRDE.

But success came only in 2005 after the Arjun hardened its electronics to work in the desert heat and fixed chronic suspension leakages.

The army then demanded that the tank be able to drive for 20 minutes under six feet of water, and that's been done too.

Now as the Arjun races over these rumble strips, it has logged up notable successes.

In the year 2000, the Indian Kanchan Armour proved itself in trials - a T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun even from point blank range.

Last June firing trials noted that the ''accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt.''

While the T-90 plans to install an air conditioner to keep its electronics working, the Arjun's electronics now work at up to 60 degrees.

The MoD admitted this year to the Parliament's Committee on Defence that the ''Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks.''

And that that ''MBT Arjun is specifically configured for Indian Army requirements, and the T-90 does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun.''

But the Arjun's makers don't just want acceptance and a token order of 124 tanks.

They want the Arjun to be the backbone of India's 3500 tank fleet, and the comparative trials, they say, will prove the Arjun deserves that.

The MoD is backpedaling. It says the army could accept another 124 tanks of the improved Arjun and perhaps many more, if the army likes the tank.

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production.

The Army's opposition to the Arjun tank is partly the fault of the Arjun team. It took three decades to develop the tank and the generals lost faith in the project.

And today, with the Arjun ready to prove its worth the army seems unwilling to listen.

[Titanium]

And u are by the side of army cheif?

Economically, millitarily, technologically INDIA is on a BULL RUN.
BE BRAVE BE INDIAN[not a kanjus(mean) tax payer, be ready to sacrifice last drop of your blood for ur motherland.]
(Sura so pehchaniye jo lare din ke het, Purza purza kat mare kabhon na chade khet). ...
(Those are brave who fight for humanity,even when cut into peices they never leave the battlefield)
Sura(shoorveer)(brave)
din(humanity)
purza(peices)
kabhon(never)
chade(leaves)
khet(battlefeild)


For all the bravery and cutting yourself to pieces, you do not want to belive the Army chief:confused:. You would rather side with DRDO who may never have to do the fight and lose their limb. Well what can I say to patriotic like you:unknown

[indian bull]

For all the bravery and cutting yourself to pieces, you do not want to belive the Army chief:confused:. You would rather side with DRDO who may never have to do the fight and lose their limb. Well what can I say to patriotic like you:unknown

Army cheifs come and go regularly and their staments change more freequently and u have stick to a single statement of army cheif. I think u must search and go to study details about these projects. Why army refuses comparative trials of arjun with T-72(night blind) and t-90(leaky with soft electronic parts)? why army is planning to fit air conditioning systems in t-90 and not opting arjun(their electronics are hardened to 60 degree C) ?u need to study a lot.:flame

If drdo have to loose then why army has ordered 124 arjuns, then the whole project of developing arjun mk 2 and tank x must be stgopped immidiately.

[funtz]

Man if you ask for my personal opinion the Arjun tank is as good as the T-90 or the upgraded T-72 and it is not really welcomed by the army, the huge time it took to develop this beast has sealed its future, and i fail to see how that has anything to do with national pride, so there was a screw up, almost all military projects around the world seem to be run with time delays and cost overruns.

The army does not want the arjun they are already prepared for T-90/72(upgraded), the MoD seems to be hell bent on making sure that the Army accepts the Tank, the reasons seem beyond my grasp, if people can not respect the judgment of the men they choose to hand over the security of the nation to then perhaps they should replace them.

In case no one remembers the T-90 did not just spring up from the ground the army considered a wide range of options before going for the T-90, i suppose the combat effectiveness@cost was a factor they used. So at a stage as late as this it is naive to ask the army to move over and make some room.

Their is a value to technology demonstrators or developments, it will be in our own interest to keep on adding to the technology of the Arjun tank even if it is not procured in huge numbers, otherwise the next project will take same amounts of time and money to come up. So i am all for my money going into continuous development of the Arjun tank project, if DRDO involves a commercial house like L&T, Tata, M&M into it even better.
As the title of this thread suggests Arjun tank project should be run as long as Tanks are required in combat, should be made a department in DRDO which keeps on adding stuff onto the tank with in the financial restraints.

As for comparisons of the arjun tank, it seem to be a rhetorical question.
One can even say that T-55 which is being phased out is better than the Arjun as it is actually in forward positions, to put it in another way till the LCA is actually inducted into the AF the MiG-21 bison is much better as it is carring out sorties with the AF.

[Rossiman]

Man if you ask for my personal opinion the Arjun tank is as good as the T-90 or the upgraded T-72 and it is not really welcomed by the army, the huge time it took to develop this beast has sealed its future, and i fail to see how that has anything to do with national pride, so there was a screw up, almost all military projects around the world seem to be run with time delays and cost overruns.

The army does not want the arjun they are already prepared for T-90/72(upgraded), the MoD seems to be hell bent on making sure that the Army accepts the Tank, the reasons seem beyond my grasp, if people can not respect the judgment of the men they choose to hand over the security of the nation to then perhaps they should replace them.

In case no one remembers the T-90 did not just spring up from the ground the army considered a wide range of options before going for the T-90, i suppose the combat effectiveness@cost was a factor they used. So at a stage as late as this it is naive to ask the army to move over and make some room.

Their is a value to technology demonstrators or developments, it will be in our own interest to keep on adding to the technology of the Arjun tank even if it is not procured in huge numbers, otherwise the next project will take same amounts of time and money to come up. So i am all for my money going into continuous development of the Arjun tank project, if DRDO involves a commercial house like L&T, Tata, M&M into it even better.
As the title of this thread suggests Arjun tank project should be run as long as Tanks are required in combat, should be made a department in DRDO which keeps on adding stuff onto the tank with in the financial restraints.

As for comparisons of the arjun tank, it seem to be a rhetorical question.
One can even say that T-55 which is being phased out is better than the Arjun as it is actually in forward positions, to put it in another way till the LCA is actually inducted into the AF the MiG-21 bison is much better as it is carring out sorties with the AF.


I agree with you, the Arjun is actually a well built tank that is par with the T-90. How much does a Arjun cost compared to a T-90/T-72?

[indian bull]

hey funtz questions were raised about underpowered deisel engine of arjun but t-90,72 have engine between 700-800bhp as compared with arjun having an engine of 1400bhp.as u are a engineer tell me if t90,72 is underpowered or is arjun?

[funtz]

If you have the tonnage to power figures you can see for yourself which tank is under powered, i think they are available in the DRDO website, the weight has very littile to do with the power available or the tank sinking in the sand, might have more to do with going over a bridge that looks really suspect.

Arjun MBT
1400 HP at 2400 rpm
24:1 HP/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
http://www.drdo.org/products/mbt.htm

T-90S MBT
1,000 HP
21.5 hp/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.87 kg/sq.cm.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

T-72 MBT
840 HP
13.8kW/t
Ground Pressure: 0.83 kg/ sq.cm.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t72/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-72M1.html
The power to weight ratio might be different as army tech site states for T-72S with V-84 liquid-cooled four-stroke which develops 840hp, providing a power to weight ratio of 13.8kW/t
And the Bharat Rakshak states T-72 M1 with V-12 air-cooled, multi-fuel injection, engine with 780 hp.

All of the figures work only when the engines work to the optimum levels in Indian conditions.

Not really a mech-engineer bro. its not like all of us engineers have more than one semester with thermo. and/or engines.

However this belongs in the arjun thread, here i will like to talk about the huge requirement of the indian army of 3000-5000 tanks or so (any one with the more information) and how that requires a constant MBT development department in the DRDO which should also include participation of the private firms.

[funtz]

I agree with you, the Arjun is actually a well built tank that is par with the T-90. How much does a Arjun cost compared to a T-90/T-72?
As per the 14th parliamentary report of 2006 - 2007

MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore.

http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline/

[indian bull]

If you have the tonnage to power figures you can see for yourself which tank is under powered, i think they are available in the DRDO website, the weight has very littile to do with the power available or the tank sinking in the sand, might have more to do with going over a bridge that looks really suspect.

Arjun MBT
1400 HP at 2400 rpm
24:1 HP/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
http://www.drdo.org/products/mbt.htm

T-90S MBT
1,000 HP
21.5 hp/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.87 kg/sq.cm.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

T-72 MBT
840 HP
13.8kW/t
Ground Pressure: 0.83 kg/ sq.cm.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t72/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-72M1.html
The power to weight ratio might be different as army tech site states for T-72S with V-84 liquid-cooled four-stroke which develops 840hp, providing a power to weight ratio of 13.8kW/t
And the Bharat Rakshak states T-72 M1 with V-12 air-cooled, multi-fuel injection, engine with 780 hp.

All of the figures work only when the engines work to the optimum levels in Indian conditions.

Not really a mech-engineer bro. its not like all of us engineers have more than one semester with thermo. and/or engines.

However this belongs in the arjun thread, here i will like to talk about the huge requirement of the indian army of 3000-5000 tanks or so (any one with the more information) and how that requires a constant MBT development department in the DRDO which should also include participation of the private firms.

well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass,politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.

[Titanium]

well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass,politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.


Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun TAnk, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressue is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.

[indian bull]

Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun TAnk, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressue is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.

some not all Army officers are so much obssesed with russian equipment that they will buy russian donkeys rather than indian arjun. And u please read the report of ajay shukla posted above and go to the links provided above. the DG of cvrde is also an army officer look what he says publiclay.

[funtz]

well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass, politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.

I don’t really think there is much difference between T-90s and Arjun based on the figures, really have a closer look.
A more comprehensive comparison can be made through internet resources, if the resources overstate every value then it should come out even. :D

With out considering how the tanks will be used that seems to be useless. if you wish for the sake of having time on our hands we can compare this in the Arjun MBT thread i think they are already there in that thread.

However it is useless as it is the Army that has to man these tanks and not us, better leave it up to the experts they have for these jobs, lobbying goes on even in contracts for stationary why should a multi billion dollar contract be any different?

Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun Tank, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressure is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.

The irony in your "incidental not designed" statement is funny.

Exactly what is the topic here Arjun tank or the next generation of the Arjun tank project?

In case it is about the later one, well what ever comes up next will have a huge advantage over the current project, as many mistakes have been made and i am sure many things have been learned.

[indian bull]

I don’t really think there is much difference between T-90s and Arjun based on the figures, really have a closer look.
A more comprehensive comparison can be made through internet resources, if the resources overstate every value then it should come out even. :D

With out considering how the tanks will be used that seems to be useless. if you wish for the sake of having time on our hands we can compare this in the Arjun MBT thread i think they are already there in that thread.

However it is useless as it is the Army that has to man these tanks and not us, better leave it up to the experts they have for these jobs, lobbying goes on even in contracts for stationary why should a multi billion dollar contract be any different?




The irony in your "incidental not designed" statement is funny.

Exactly what is the topic here Arjun tank or the next generation of the Arjun tank project?

In case it is about the later one, well what ever comes up next will have a huge advantage over the current project, as many mistakes have been made and i am sure many things have been learned.

All i wish is that lot of hardwork and money will not get wasted and in future arjuns will make a come back with a lot of advancement and also drdo and armed forces will amalgmate and join hands right from the begining of the projects.

[aaaditya]

i dont think arjun is realy that bad,if it was so,then the indian army would have gone for a brand new design or joint development of a battle tank with a foreign country ,however they have decided to go for arjun2 which is nothing but an improved arjun with a 1500hp engine(for which cvrde has already issued request for proposals for joint development).

i believe that the gun ,suspension ,nbc protection would be retained while the armour and the electronics would be further improved.

by the way does anyone have any idea about the main battle tank karna project,is it the same as the tank-x or is it a completely new design.

[indian bull]

here is something:-
DRDO preparing ‘Karna’ tank
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, March 11 2002
After the failure of its ambitious main battle tank “Arjun”, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has embarked upon the new generation “Karna” tank which can withstand a nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) attack.

The DRDO has already prepared the prototype of “Karna” and is presently conducting field tests, well-placed sources said today. It would be some time before “Karna” is made available for Army trials.

“Karna”, sources claimed, would be at par with internationally leading tanks like Abrams of the USA, Leopard (Germany), Challenger (UK) and Leclerc (France).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_ex_mbt
Tank-Ex/MBT-EX is the code name to a new tank developed by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in 2002. It is rumored to be called "Karna", after one of the heroes of the Indian epic 'The Mahabharata'.

[Titanium]

i dont think arjun is realy that bad,if it was so,then the indian army would have gone for a brand new design or joint development of a battle tank with a foreign country ,however they have decided to go for arjun2 which is nothing but an improved arjun with a 1500hp engine(for which cvrde has already issued request for proposals for joint development).

i believe that the gun ,suspension ,nbc protection would be retained while the armour and the electronics would be further improved.

by the way does anyone have any idea about the main battle tank karna project,is it the same as the tank-x or is it a completely new design.

Am afraid, it will be new design..as the Army chief want a lighter, versatile and high tech.


Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here

This is in contrast to 58 ton heavy Arjun, which Gen Kapoor described a medium tech.

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

How much lighter can you make the same Arjun tank? one , two ton still it would not be what the Army wants.

So brace yourself for a new tank design with a new mytholigical warrior name.:p:

[Titanium]

All i wish is that lot of hardwork and money will not get wasted and in future arjuns will make a come back with a lot of advancement and also drdo and armed forces will amalgmate and join hands right from the begining of the projects.

Yes the competency developed will be used to design a new lighter and High-tech tank. But it will not be Arjun Tank, as we know of, Arjun MBT will be just a history lesson of how not to embark on tank development.

[n21]

The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.

What is the difference b/w a 58 ton track and a 65 ton track? How will 65 ton track help to reduce ground pressure?

And what is the problem in having a so called 65 ton track on a 58 ton tank?

[indian bull]

Am afraid, it will be new design..as the Army chief want a lighter, versatile and high tech.




This is in contrast to 58 ton heavy Arjun, which Gen Kapoor described a medium tech.

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

How much lighter can you make the same Arjun tank? one , two ton still it would not be what the Army wants.

So brace yourself for a new tank design with a new mytholigical warrior name.:p:

well according to u tanks must be lighter, then we should mount a barrel on maruti-800. HE he he----:nutkick

[Titanium]

well according to u tanks must be lighter, then we should mount a barrel on maruti-800. HE he he----:nutkick

Man please don't get worked on me. It is not my opinion but that of Army Chief Gen. Kapoor. Read the wording...again:

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here

Perhaps you should direct your views at Gen Kapoor.

Again the Topic of this thread is to discuss the future Tank design, not the postmortem of Arjun tank, for whose discussion there are multiple thread available in this forum.

[funtz]

Man please don't get worked on me. It is not my opinion but that of Army Chief Gen. Kapoor. Read the wording...again:

Perhaps you should direct your views at Gen Kapoor.

Again the Topic of this thread is to discuss the future Tank design, not the postmortem of Arjun tank, for whose discussion there are multiple thread available in this forum.

The future must be what the Army wants.

I think they have some reason to give what ever they require, if its a 40 ton tank then that is what they should be provided with, i think if we can not trust the Army then the problem is much deeper.

It is not us who will decide how they behave in a war.

I for one do not really care that much about what the army wants, they might very well bring a 100 ton giant and if i am around i will start talking about the next project, just like i will talk about every election that happens around india over office tea/coffee/cig breaks :D

As for the repeated comments on the Chief of army staff speaking in a conference about combat Armored vehicles, it is a bit off, as he was being asked for his personal opinion at a 'conference;, his views do not necessarily give us an insight into the actual thinking of the organisation about the topic of this thread, the views might very well might change by the time a new generation of tank project starts.
And with this there is also the fact that this is a discussion on a discussion forum that we are participating in.
So, our views should matter to at least to us.

[Titanium]

The future must be what the Army wants.

I think they have some reason to give what ever they require, if its a 40 ton tank then that is what they should be provided with, i think if we can not trust the Army then the problem is much deeper.

It is not us who will decide how they behave in a war.


This is the one thing which was not being acknowledged till recently, both by DRDO and Ministry of defence. The less said the better of the DRDO Fans here.

It is ultimately the Army who knows what kind of weapons they want, based on the doctrine.

[funtz]

DRDO fan boys? Well its better than the absolute opposite (burn it, lose it), :D

The disagreements between the Army and MoD will continue as long as it is Armed Forces of India and not the India of Armed forces.
This is the limitation of a constitutional arrangement, more important factor is that the indigenous weapons manufacturing continues.

It's only now that the financial situation in the history of India as it is now is improving, organizations like DRDO, HAL will have to now make sure that the current interest in the defense sector by the private houses is appreciated.

Competing with well established industrial bases is naive, when you consider that for many projects no precedence existed. The MBT project has established a basic research and development structure however huge the criticisms of it may be, it was necessary none the less. Now the future stages of the MBT projects have a obvious advantage.

[indian bull]

What about Larsen and tourbo in defence research,http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20071121/biz.htm#1

L&T has a defense engineering division, which the company is planning to spin off into an independent subsidiary. Company officials say the subsidiary may then apply with the defense ministry for the Raksha Udyog Ratna status which would give it a number of privileges in the defence contract sector.

[indian bull]

Guys here is latest onArjun mk2
http://www.idrw.org/2007/11/13/army_okays_development_of_arjun_mark_ii_tanks.html
Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks


Author: idrw team | 13 November 2007 | Views: 225


BY : PTI






The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run of the original model Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

Defence scientists are also working on the Tank X project comprising features of Arjun and Russian-supplied T-72 tanks.

The function organised by the CII was presided over by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, who asked Indian companies to invest and participate more in production of weapons systems.

[Titanium]

Guys here is latest onArjun mk2
http://www.idrw.org/2007/11/13/army_okays_development_of_arjun_mark_ii_tanks.html
Army okays development of Arjun Mark II tanks


Author: idrw team | 13 November 2007 | Views: 225


BY : PTI






The army on Tuesday gave the go-ahead for developing next generation indigenous battle tanks after a successful run of the original model Arjun.

Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here.

Defence scientists are also working on the Tank X project comprising features of Arjun and Russian-supplied T-72 tanks.

The function organised by the CII was presided over by Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh, who asked Indian companies to invest and participate more in production of weapons systems.

I have statrted this thread based on the news........ see that is listed in first page.

Anyway hope the DRDO would not commit the same harakari as with Arjun.

[Titanium]

DefenseNews.com - India Tackles Second Tank Design Project - 11/26/07 17:19 (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3196879&C=asiapac)

NEW DELHI — India plans to design another main battle tank for future Army requirements, its second such attempt after a 30-year effort to develop the Arjun, which failed to meet requirements.

The state-owned Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) has initiated the design and development of the Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), intended to fulfill the original role of the Arjun and replace aging Russian T-72 tanks, a senior CVRDE scientist said.
CVRDE is India’s only tank development agency, operating under the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The DRDO will form a consortium to design and develop the FMBT. CRDRE has short-listed the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi, as its development partner, and will also seek partnership with two unidentified private companies.
The CVRDE scientist said full development will begin in April. DRDO will fund 50 percent of the cost with the partners paying for the rest. Six prototypes will be developed in seven years, and bulk production is planned from 2020.

The FMBT will weigh 40 tons and feature a 125mm gun, the CVRDE scientist said. Advanced features will include the ability to fire kinetic weapons and missiles, an active protection system, and hybrid armor to defeat improvised explosive devices.

The tank will be able to fight at night and fulfill surveillance and reconnaissance roles. It will have a third-generation transmission system, integrated fire-control with laser finders, battlefield-management system and mine-detection system.

As I expected there will be new name, the new tank will be called Future main battle tank [FMBT] for now, on the lines of LCA, MCA, ...

After Arjun MBT, his half brother Karna i.e Tank-ex and still born Bhim to now FMBT!! Intersting to see if tank will be produced by 2020 after failure of two recent attempts.

[funtz]

I think deep down inside there is a hidden joke to be found in the article if one goes digging.

some 30 years ago.
1: we need tanks, 2: lets ask the Army. 3: Good, then a 40 ton 125 mm gun tank it will be, 4: hey its been some time now we want a heavier tank with 120 mm gun, 5: lets make a new tank from ground up, 6: darn it its taking too long lets just buy a new tank.

present day:
1. hey we need tanks, 2. lets ask the army, 3. Good, a 40 ton 125 mm tank it will be,....

so how they do it here in India
1-2 cha cha cha, 3-4 cha cha cha, come on now lets do it again

:onfloorl:

I hope someone with more knowledge can make sense i give up (my taxed money).

[indian bull]

I think one day DRDO will be top weapons developor in the world, it has started from zero but has done things in a prertty less time as compared to others, JAI DRDO.:india

[Rossiman]

That's how India does stuff haha ;).
The Arjun is actually a good tank, its better than the T-72 and is par with the T-90. There are stuff i like about the T-90, and there is stuff i like about the Arjun. Does that mean lets go build a new tank? No....
Wouldn't it be cheap to buy lets say a M1A2 or a Leopard II, than to spend the crazy amounts of money funding, designing and then prototypes.

[thefox]

i think t-90 is a good machine,the problem i see is the big silhoutte of arjun adding to the allready problem facing giant.
they need to reduce it or else improve the electronic systems.if they do both that will be better.they had some transport problems also i guess if i remember properly.
lets see what happens to this project.

[funtz]

That's how India does stuff haha ;).
The Arjun is actually a good tank, its better than the T-72 and is par with the T-90. There are stuff i like about the T-90, and there is stuff i like about the Arjun. Does that mean lets go build a new tank? No....
Wouldn't it be cheap to buy lets say a M1A2 or a Leopard II, than to spend the crazy amounts of money funding, designing and then prototypes.




Well if the Army thinks that the Russians doctrine of tanks works for them, might as well keep on buying Russian tanks, afterall the whole point of indigenous manufacturing for India should be designing a tank that has been built for Indian conditions and Indian Army from the ground up, and do so with less money then other similar options,
The Russian tanks seem to fit with the army and they are not all that expensive.

I think with any project the most important thing is to face problems (which are always there) and come up with the solutions, hence acquiring the capability to do some creative work (original solutions that give you an edge). Hope its the same for the defense sector.

The requirement of 3000~5000 tanks by the army should be the driving force, which will never happen till the army takes one for the team.

[Titanium]

I think one day DRDO will be top weapons developor in the world, it has started from zero but has done things in a prertty less time as compared to others, JAI DRDO.:india

No one here will deprive you of your dreams, but the reality is little, just a little different.

Just hope DRDO will soon unvail the design of 40 ton 125mm gun Tank.

[funtz]

No one here will deprive you of your dreams, but the reality is little, just a little different.

Just hope DRDO will soon unvail the design of 40 ton 125mm gun Tank.
Why make a 40 ton 125 mm gun tank, might as well buy more amazing T-90s? Any specific technology that you might think off which justify this?

[Titanium]

Why make a 40 ton 125 mm gun tank, might as well buy more amazing T-90s? Any specific technology that you might think off which justify this?

Nothing except "Indeginous" technology.:) not to forget, to keep DRDO staff busy.

[indian bull]

No one here will deprive you of your dreams, but the reality is little, just a little different.

Just hope DRDO will soon unvail the design of 40 ton 125mm gun Tank.

Well efforts to develop arjun has given a tremendous experience to DRDO and this experience is not going to be wiped off and will give help to DRDO to develop future MBTs and also DRDO is not a failure, they are very mature in developing other weapon systems(missiles and nukes), so this organisation is necessary for acheiving Indiaz goal of self sufficiency. People who are passimistic like you are never going to be successful.:vamp

[Titanium]

Well efforts to develop arjun has given a tremendous experience to DRDO

Hope so

and this experience is not going to be wiped off and will give help to DRDO to develop future MBTs and also DRDO is not a failure,

DRDO is not failure, but attempted MBT is failure. Agree?

they are very mature in developing other weapon systems(missiles and nukes),

The thing about Missile and Nuke development is the secrecy surrounding it...and lack of altenates make them seem sucess by default.

so this organisation is necessary for acheiving Indiaz goal of self sufficiency.

That was the aim from last 30+ years and counting..


People who are passimistic like you are never going to be successful.:vamp

What is this? cursing!....:D

[thefox]

why don't u buy abrahim's till arjun gets completed.
they are the best in the world right now,and good luck with ur projects.:)

[indian bull]

NO,the fact that army is not ready for arjun doesn't mean that the whole MBT programme is failure. The mid level technology also includes t-90s(t-72s are even poor than this middle class)

Thats how we may loose more alternatives in future coz russia is moving away from us and israel is not ready to become an alternate source and US is highly unpredictable.



Efforts are continous to acheive selsufficiency.


Be optimistic and appreciate people who doing work hard for their nation, something is better than nothing.:lul

[swerve]

why don't u buy abrahim's till arjun gets completed.
they are the best in the world right now,and good luck with ur projects.:)

I presume you mean the M1 Abrams. Whatever, a higher level of discourse would be appreciated. Would you like to be more specific about the features of the M1 which make it suitable for India? It's probably a good idea if you also point out any drawbacks, & state why you believe the advantages outweigh them.

[funtz]

there is so much talk of Arjun here, it seems like this is a Arjun thread, there is already a arjun thread, what is the need of this thread then?

As for the next generation of whatever tank, can anyone say that it is needed before 2020-2025, so what is the need of this thread, to talk about things that will happen 13-18 years in the future?

Might as well debate what will be the military needs that far into future.

[thefox]

well i wrote down a list and got logged.
ok well u see india and pakistan are gonna use their tanks in the western and eastern sectors respectively.which happens mostly to be desert. soo their tanks are most probably to meet each other in desert.now to find a tank which can serve the purpose.
abrams have fought in deserts [gulf war] and proved their metal.they can locate and fire much befor seen in open deserts.they have mutiple layers of various alloys of steel,ceramic,ETC which gives them very high protection against chemical as well as kinetic energy penetrators.
weight around 61.4 tons but that ain't any problem as they are highly mobile and have proved it allready.

rounds like M829A2 were developed specifically to address the threats posed by a T-90 or T-80U tank,i guess pak has t-80u.shaped charge rounds such as the M830, the latest version of which (M830A1) incorporates a sophisticated multi-mode electronic sensing fuse and more fragmentation which allows it to be used effectively against armored vehicles, personnel, and low-flying aircraft.
now you may think that its powered by gas turbine,which may cause troble in the desert but as i said it has allready seen operation inthe desert,so that should not be a concern anymore for anyone.
yes i like leclerc too but it has still to prove itself in actual war and as i said the tank we r looking for is a desert tank.
in anycase its just my openion.
respect others and they will respect you:)

[funtz]

That is a huge debate in itself,
what is the nature of this desert battlefield that is talked about above and how similar it is to the places 'abrams' have performed in? Anything that you saw of the description of this battlefield with respect to armor? What happens if the opposing forces adapt and acquire a similar tank, do we say acquire or build even bigger tanks?

[Rossiman]

why don't u buy abrahim's till arjun gets completed.
they are the best in the world right now,and good luck with ur projects.:)

First off, the Abrams isn't the BEST tank in the world. I don't want to get into what is. Also you need to correct your grammar.

There are certain things about a tank that can make it, or break it.
The M1A2 SEP/TUSK Abrams is a great tank. The problem with the Abrams is, it is a major gas hog. It uses more fuel than most tanks.

The Abrams gets about 275 miles on a tank, thats 0.6 miles a gallon on a 498 gallon tank. Definitely isn't the best, but then again you are pushing 69.5 tons.... HA:)

The LeClerc gets 345 miles to a tank, and 425-450 with External fuel tanks.

The second thing is, the engine is under armored. This is the SECOND most important part of a tank, besides it's crews. And the Engine should be the best protected/after its crew of course.

While the Abrams would be a reasonable choice for India, i highly doubt it will happen. They will either buy more T-90's or Arjuns. Better yet design a new tank like they said, once again.....

[thefox]

hey people i am not saying abrams are the best what i am saying in my opinion they are the best.i may be wrong correct me thats what i am here for.i respect ur opinions/view's and want the same for mine.

now some things against abrams can be that, since we all know M1A2being primarily designed for the NATO theatre of war - is too bulky and unsuitable for operation in the Indo-Pak environment. here try to understand what i mean by saying environment{it includes a lot of things involved in war}They are heavy on fuel, and pose serious logistic problems in transportation within india. Besides, the exorbitant capital, operational and life-cycle costs of abrams tanks is another issue.
now if you have enough money and you want the best not the second best,the choice is simple.
one more thing you said what if pakistan buyed much heavier machines,can they.be logical.whats their defence budget.they won't buy anything atleast for the time being so secure your present first and then think about the future.
respect others and they will respect you:)

[indian bull]

Well this is a good suggestion to buy more costly, more heavy and more fuel consuming and more underpowered great Abrams and create a mess here in India.:)

[samridhi]

Hi ,

I just wanted to say how much is privatization is nessessary in development of world class products.

[swerve]

...
The Abrams gets about 275 miles on a tank, thats 0.6 miles a gallon on a 498 gallon tank. Definitely isn't the best, but then again you are pushing 69.5 tons.... HA:) .....

Are you sure you're comparing like with like? IIRC that 69.5 tons is US tons, aka short tons, i.e. 2000 lbs/907 kg per ton. Leclerc, Leopard 2 etc are measured in metric tonnes, aka tonnes, i.e. 1000 kg per ton. Imperial tons are 1016 kg, so close enough to metric tons not to matter in this context, & in any case, British AFV weights are given in metric measures nowadays.

If you compare an M1 (heaviest model) to a Leopard 2 (heaviest model) or Challenger 2, using the same units, you discover that there's surprisingly little difference in weight.

[Rossiman]

Are you sure you're comparing like with like? IIRC that 69.5 tons is US tons, aka short tons, i.e. 2000 lbs/907 kg per ton. Leclerc, Leopard 2 etc are measured in metric tonnes, aka tonnes, i.e. 1000 kg per ton. Imperial tons are 1016 kg, so close enough to metric tons not to matter in this context, & in any case, British AFV weights are given in metric measures nowadays.

If you compare an M1 (heaviest model) to a Leopard 2 (heaviest model) or Challenger 2, using the same units, you discover that there's surprisingly little difference in weight.

Ok, you lost me. I am talking about gas tanks , not the weight of the tank. The French LeClerc gets around 50-75 gallons more on a tank, thats a huge difference.
I suck at metric conversions lol.

[Titanium]

NEW DELHI — India plans to design another main battle tank for future Army requirements, its second such attempt after a 30-year effort to develop the Arjun, which failed to meet requirements.

The state-owned Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) has initiated the design and development of the Futuristic Main Battle Tank (FMBT), intended to fulfill the original role of the Arjun and replace aging Russian T-72 tanks, a senior CVRDE scientist said.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3196879&C=america

[Space]

Why we need tanks and Army,
We just need nuclear weapons and the missiles to carry them.
That is enough,
We no more need anything else

Just drop a nuke if anybody threatens you.

So stop talking about other defense systems. Do we really need anything else?

[Stimpy75]

ever heard of: who shoots first,dies as second?:rolleyes:
there are many other things to say about why we need an army and tanks,i.e. conventionall forces.....but don´t want to tell you that...:nutkick
back on topic: did the Indian Army ever thought of equipping their tanks with the turret of the Black Eagle or to produce it in licence? here is a link to it,but it´s in german
http://www.kotsch88.de/vttv2005-s2.htm#TransportLadeContainer

[Titanium]

ever heard of: who shoots first,dies as second?:rolleyes:
there are many other things to say about why we need an army and tanks,i.e. conventionall forces.....but don´t want to tell you that...:nutkick
back on topic: did the Indian Army ever thought of equipping their tanks with the turret of the Black Eagle or to produce it in licence? here is a link to it,but it´s in german
http://www.kotsch88.de/vttv2005-s2.htm#TransportLadeContainer

That is after DRDO is done its experiament for another 2 decade on FMBT, they will surely buy with Technology transfer.:rolleyes:

[funtz]

No need to buy fancy tanks or build super duper armor, its not like the Indian Army has to face anything that big and scary around the subcontinent, its better to just push in whatever they make in 5 years and claim that to be the best tank in the world.
They need to concentrate on propoganda, it is way more important.

The next 2 decades look good on the ground private players are moving in, the numbers will always be there to support them (of tanks), joint ventures it seems are the in thing, as for the DRDO, the old beast should change by then. I think FMBT project will not be that tough.

[Space]

What india needs is lots of weapons of mass distruction like nuclear devices and also new biological weapons.
Henceforth the there will not be conventional war where we need tanks , guns etc.
We should have better weapons of mass distruction so that the first attack should end the enimy. And make the enimy contry a no mans land.
We should have upper hand on pakistan and china's space and cyber space.

Also we need good air striking ability.

Thats all. Think differently and develop new messiles , new nuclear bombs.
new biological weapons.
We can always start a hidden war with biological weapons like bird flue.

Admin: Text deleted. Please refer to the Forum Rules before posting any more responses.

For fighting against other nations keep weapons of mass distruction ready.
And keep in mind one day we are gonna die so do not afraid to use these weapons.

[funtz]

When you consider the volume of work that the Indian Armed forces have been engaged for the last decade and the work they are currently engaged in, that seems too far from reality.

The implications of using nuclear and or biological weapons in the neighborhood will most certainly include India, further more we have some responsibility as human beings towards other humans.

to the other stuff all that i can say is, grow up.

[Space]

Admin: Text deleted. You seriously need to read the Forum Rules before posting any more responses.

You need to stay on topic and not bring in peripheral subject matter that is outside the scope of the question.

Please make the effort to do so as this is the second time your posts have had to be edited and you've only posted 3 posts to date.


This is an official first warning.

[gf0012-aust]

Space, I appreciate the fact that you are new to the forums, but you must make the effort to comply with the Forum Rules re etiquette and posting standards.

Please note prev comments by me.

[otester]

A dirt cheap tank which is field-able for India en-mass:

-Chassis & turret based on T-55 design.
-Turret not made from steel but tough alloy, depleted uranium for frontal curve.
-125mm 2A46M-5, auto loader fitted out with APFSDS (3BM-42M), HEAT, HEF & ATGM.
-MRS fitted for long range accuracy.
-NERA/Relikts armour package added.
-ARENA protection system.
-Anti-radar+Anti-IR jamming system.
-1A45T Irtysh computerized system.
-2E42-4 Zhasmin two-plane electro-mechanical.
-ESSA (Thales Optronique Catherine-FC TI).
-DVE-BS wind gauge.
-1V528-1 ballistic computer.

If possible a home-brew diesel engine or updated German 1500hp.

[Chrom]

A dirt cheap tank which is field-able for India en-mass:

-Chassis & turret based on T-55 design.
-Turret not made from steel but tough alloy, depleted uranium for frontal curve.
-125mm 2A46M-5, auto loader fitted out with APFSDS (3BM-42M), HEAT, HEF & ATGM.
-MRS fitted for long range accuracy.
-NERA/Relikts armour package added.
-ARENA protection system.
-Anti-radar+Anti-IR jamming system.
-1A45T Irtysh computerized system.
-2E42-4 Zhasmin two-plane electro-mechanical.
-ESSA (Thales Optronique Catherine-FC TI).
-DVE-BS wind gauge.
-1V528-1 ballistic computer.

If possible a home-brew diesel engine or updated German 1500hp.
OMG. It will cost EXACTLY as much as latest T-90. T-90 chassys itself (without any electronic, etc) cost less than 800k $$. Add a new engine... and it is much cheaper to produce NEW T-90 or add slightly more and buy Arjun if you really want "indigenious" tank.

[otester]

OMG. It will cost EXACTLY as much as latest T-90. T-90 chassys itself (without any electronic, etc) cost less than 800k $$. Add a new engine... and it is much cheaper to produce NEW T-90 or add slightly more and buy Arjun if you really want "indigenious" tank.

Well T-55 itself about 10k, major saving hmm?

[Waylander]

No, you want to change the passive armor layout of the T-55 turret so the price for it is also going to rise.

And the small price of a T-55 includes this lovely old gun and engine.

So even a basic T-55 (without all the toys just the hull, turret and engine) is going to be much more expensive than the 10k for a plain old T-55.
Not tot alk of the need to overhaul the whole thing to get some additional life out of it. Otherwise you have some pretty expensive toys on a whored down chassis which is going to break down every few miles when it is heavily used.

And as Chrom said all the new gadgets are really expensive.
I would say, okay upgrade your T-72s but not the T-55s.

[swerve]

Well T-55 itself about 10k, major saving hmm?

Go and look up the price Turkey is paying for the M60T. Then consider that the M60T includes an original M60 hull, turret, & some mechanical components, which came free.

Now consider: you buy an old T-55 for more or less scrap value. Discard everything except the hull, turret, & a few of the more robust mechanical components, which will still be sound. Strip them down, clean 'em, make necessary modifications (cut a few bits out, add some mountings) for the new components. Hmm. That's been quite expensive. You'll have spent a large proportion of the cost of a new, purpose-built, modified T-55 hull & turret.

Then add the new gun, engine, FCS, add-on armour etc. you propose. These will cost the same same as those fitted in new tanks. They account for most of the cost of a new tank.

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense. For a lot less money, you could get an upgraded tank which is less capable, but far better value for money. For less than twice as much, you could get a new tank at least twice as good. IMO you're aiming squarely at the "sour spot", the overdone upgrade which is not cost-effective.

[Waylander]

I have no problem with upgrading T-55s to some degree.

Just put some ERA onto it, get some new commo equipment and maybe add a LRF.
With that one gets a relatively cheap AFV which could perform in the role of a light tank and it could be attached to infantry units in a support role.
With some decent ammo (A nice APFSDS and HE) it should be deadly enough for everything but enemy MBTs.
Save the rest of the money and bring your main tank forces up to modern standard and I mean bring them up in numbers and quality.

[funtz]

its the T-90, some 1500-1600 and counting, DRDO chaps will have to finish up quick and address whatever magical needs the Army has, after that with some more solid support of the MoD they can make the army stick to a whole lot of the Arjun MBT's.

Why would they buy/upgrade T-55s without a need to do so.

Just wondering if someone could help or point towards some place,

- what is the approximate MBT requirement of the Indian Army (talking of numbers)?

- In what time frame will the upgraded T-72 in the Indian Army require a replacement?

- In what time frame will the T-90s require a replacement(eventually)?

[kato]

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense.

Hmm, Romania is still clinging to their TR-85 (T-55 clone with different engine) though, just recently upgraded to TR-85M1/M2 - new engine, new suspension, upgraded turret with more armour on the frontal arc, new FCS, LWR, LRF, smoke grenade launchers, new ammunition etc.

Only thing they haven't changed pretty much is the basic chassis - and the gun.

[Chrom]

Army require a replacement?

- In what time frame will the T-90s require a replacement(eventually)?
Will probably never "require" but surery in 10 years T-90 would degenerate to 2nd line tank.

[Chrom]

Hmm, Romania is still clinging to their TR-85 (T-55 clone with different engine) though, just recently upgraded to TR-85M1/M2 - new engine, new suspension, upgraded turret with more armour on the frontal arc, new FCS, LWR, LRF, smoke grenade launchers, new ammunition etc.

Only thing they haven't changed pretty much is the basic chassis - and the gun.

There are some pretty neat proposal advertised along the lines from Russia and Ukraine - but there is a good reason why noone ordered it :)

[otester]

Go and look up the price Turkey is paying for the M60T. Then consider that the M60T includes an original M60 hull, turret, & some mechanical components, which came free.

Now consider: you buy an old T-55 for more or less scrap value. Discard everything except the hull, turret, & a few of the more robust mechanical components, which will still be sound. Strip them down, clean 'em, make necessary modifications (cut a few bits out, add some mountings) for the new components. Hmm. That's been quite expensive. You'll have spent a large proportion of the cost of a new, purpose-built, modified T-55 hull & turret.

Then add the new gun, engine, FCS, add-on armour etc. you propose. These will cost the same same as those fitted in new tanks. They account for most of the cost of a new tank.

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense. For a lot less money, you could get an upgraded tank which is less capable, but far better value for money. For less than twice as much, you could get a new tank at least twice as good. IMO you're aiming squarely at the "sour spot", the overdone upgrade which is not cost-effective.

Was just to show the T-55 is capable, although not a good idea...

What I said was the full package, could strip it down a lot and make it just as battle-worthy.

Look at the Ukrainian T-55.

[mysterious]

Was just to show the T-55 is capable, although not a good idea...

What I said was the full package, could strip it down a lot and make it just as battle-worthy.

Look at the Ukrainian T-55.

You could also look at the work done by Pakistan on its old T-55s & T-65s by upgrading them to Al-Zarrar standard. Shows how much you can still do.

[otester]

You could also look at the work done by Pakistan on its old T-55s & T-65s by upgrading them to Al-Zarrar standard. Shows how much you can still do.

That's pretty much what I had in mind originally, good to see nations are doing this, now what would be the cost of an Al-Zarrar (T-59)?

[eckherl]

That's pretty much what I had in mind originally, good to see nations are doing this, now what would be the cost of an Al-Zarrar (T-59)?

Isn`t that bad boy sporting a 125mm.

[otester]

Isn`t that bad boy sporting a 125mm.

Sure is.

I would post a link to a fact page I got but I can't yet.... :mad:

[eckherl]

Sure is.

I would post a link to a fact page I got but I can't yet.... :mad:

This should be it, I wonder what the cost is for the upgrade.

[Aliph Ahmed]

This should be it, I wonder what the cost is for the upgrade.

I know it is an Indian Thread but I just wanted to point out the current and as of date form of Al-Zarrar Tank.

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0600.JPG
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/gallery/images/pkdef06.jpg