Indonesia buying Mi-17s and Mi-35s from Russia

[drg]

Here:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20071024154913&irec=20
Personally i'm interested in what missiles Indonesia is getting from Poland and China (though i think i may already have the answer).
In my notes...where are they... ahh here!
"Indonesia signs deal with NORINCO to jointly develop missiles with 150 km range. Argued to be CSS-N-8 'Saccade' (C-802), apparently due to Indonesia not being able to afford planes (oops! Su-30s cough cough!)"
And as for Poland: "Indonesia getting AA stuff from Polish company Bumar" dated June (2005 or 06?).
There, that stuff may be a lead...
Whaddyas think?

[FutureTank]

Here:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20071024154913&irec=20
Personally i'm interested in what missiles Indonesia is getting from Poland and China (though i think i may already have the answer).
In my notes...where are they... ahh here!
"Indonesia signs deal with NORINCO to jointly develop missiles with 150 km range. Argued to be CSS-N-8 'Saccade' (C-802), apparently due to Indonesia not being able to afford planes (oops! Su-30s cough cough!)"
And as for Poland: "Indonesia getting AA stuff from Polish company Bumar" dated June (2005 or 06?).
There, that stuff may be a lead...
Whaddyas think?

The Russian press suggested the quantities are 5 Mi-35s and 16 Mi-17s.
These are in addition to the first batch of BMP-3s for the Indonesian marines.
Didn't know about the C-802 being included in the deal.

[paskal]

Ok heres it....
russia loan indonesia 1billion$low interest rates .......

10 Mi-17-5 air mobility helicopters.
5 Mi-35PN attack helicopters.
30 BMP-3 IFV.
2 type 636 KILO CLASS diesel electric submarines.
3 su-30
3 su-27


One more thing that caught my eyes.
INdonesia is planning to have 44 su-30 mki in 2014[damn that a lot]

sorry you guys i got all this source fromthe TEMPUR magazine.

[paskal]

Here:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20071024154913&irec=20
Personally i'm interested in what missiles Indonesia is getting from Poland and China (though i think i may already have the answer).
In my notes...where are they... ahh here!
"Indonesia signs deal with NORINCO to jointly develop missiles with 150 km range. Argued to be CSS-N-8 'Saccade' (C-802), apparently due to Indonesia not being able to afford planes (oops! Su-30s cough cough!)"
And as for Poland: "Indonesia getting AA stuff from Polish company Bumar" dated June (2005 or 06?).
There, that stuff may be a lead...
Whaddyas think?

The missle that indonesia is devolopping is it good?
jusy wanna be clear will it be launch from aircraft or land?

[paskal]

Here:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgeneral.asp?fileid=20071024154913&irec=20
Personally i'm interested in what missiles Indonesia is getting from Poland and China (though i think i may already have the answer).
In my notes...where are they... ahh here!
"Indonesia signs deal with NORINCO to jointly develop missiles with 150 km range. Argued to be CSS-N-8 'Saccade' (C-802), apparently due to Indonesia not being able to afford planes (oops! Su-30s cough cough!)"
And as for Poland: "Indonesia getting AA stuff from Polish company Bumar" dated June (2005 or 06?).
There, that stuff may be a lead...
Whaddyas think?

just wanna ask the missle that indonesia is devolopping is it good?
just wanna be clear will it be launched from ground or from a aircraft?

I also heard that indonesia is plannig to buy the BRAHAMOS cruised missle.
If they do that the will be the first in SEA to have a medium range cruise missle [300 km]

[Aussie Digger]

just wanna ask the missle that indonesia is devolopping is it good?
just wanna be clear will it be launched from ground or from a aircraft?

I also heard that indonesia is plannig to buy the BRAHAMOS cruised missle.
If they do that the will be the first in SEA to have a medium range cruise missle [300 km]

If they introduce it before Australia introduces JASSM...

[FutureTank]

Ok heres it....
russia loan indonesia 1billion interest rates .......

10 Mi-17-5 air mobility helicopters.
5 Mi-35PN attack helicopters.
30 BMP-3 IFV.
2 type 636 KILO CLASS diesel electric submarines.
3 su-30
3 su-27


One more thing that caught my eyes.
INdonesia is planning to have 44 su-30 mki in 2014[damn that a lot]

sorry you guys i got all this source from the TEMPUR magazine.

This is just the induction deliveries. The orders were much larger, but due to the tsuname disaster the decision was to break the full order into smaller parts because Russia doesn't provide credit like USSR did.
Aside from more SU-30s, there will be more helicopters (one attack and to transport squadrons for a full airmobile regiment), and a squadron (battalion) of BMP-3s for each of the three marine brigades. Originally there were plans for 4 subs, the other two being of a different class.

[paskal]

I can bet once the TNI creates a missle that can reach malaysia or even singapore they will be war of words among countries:D

[FutureTank]

I can bet once the TNI creates a missile that can reach Malaysia or even Singapore they will be war of words among countries:D

Its a complex region.

[drg]

I've just gone back over my section on Indonesia, and there's actually a second possibility regarding a possible missile buy by Indonesia from China. It turns out that Indonesia may only be seeking Air-to-Air missiles from China. Sorry about that, i should have noticed it in my notes earlier...

[FutureTank]

I've just gone back over my section on Indonesia, and there's actually a second possibility regarding a possible missile buy by Indonesia from China. It turns out that Indonesia may only be seeking Air-to-Air missiles from China. Sorry about that, i should have noticed it in my notes earlier...

This is more likely because the deal with purchase of more Sukhois has been knocked back. It may be that Indonesia may secure funding for purchase of J-10s from China, or purchase of Chinese licensed versions of Sukhois.

[qwerty223]

This is more likely because the deal with purchase of more Sukhois has been knocked back. It may be that Indonesia may secure funding for purchase of J-10s from China, or purchase of Chinese licensed versions of Sukhois.
Neither J-11/J-11B nor J-10 had a chance to export. Both of them are license produce or component of license produce. And components of them are money machine of the Russian. The Russian will not give up them so easily.

[FutureTank]

Neither J-11/J-11B nor J-10 had a chance to export. Both of them are license produce or component of license produce. And components of them are money machine of the Russian. The Russian will not give up them so easily.

Indonesia was planning to purchase about 50 Sukhois, so all sorts of deals are possible.

[qwerty223]

Indonesia was planning to purchase about 50 Sukhois, so all sorts of deals are possible.
was planning or is planning?
It seems to me TNI wants to focus its AF all on SU-27 series., that left J-11B on the table if TNI wants a Chinese source a/c. But J-11B is essentially a SU-27SK replica with maybe MK standard upgrades. Its still under a license produce, and that means use only, not for commercial propose. But if you are talking about weapon suits, PL series missiles are good in the run.

[FutureTank]

was planning or is planning?
It seems to me TNI wants to focus its AF all on SU-27 series., that left J-11B on the table if TNI wants a Chinese source a/c. But J-11B is essentially a SU-27SK replica with maybe MK standard upgrades. Its still under a license produce, and that means use only, not for commercial propose. But if you are talking about weapon suits, PL series missiles are good in the run.

Was planning because the second batch of Sukhois is now under question, and certain to be delayed.
So far as commercial license agreements that involve Russia and China, I can only say that "we are not in Kansas any more", and that goes double for Indonesia.

[tphuang]

was planning or is planning?
It seems to me TNI wants to focus its AF all on SU-27 series., that left J-11B on the table if TNI wants a Chinese source a/c. But J-11B is essentially a SU-27SK replica with maybe MK standard upgrades. Its still under a license produce, and that means use only, not for commercial propose. But if you are talking about weapon suits, PL series missiles are good in the run.

what the heck are you talking about?
do a little research and stop making comments about what China are allowed and not allowed to export.
Either way, they would be offering at most JF-17 to Indonesia at the moment.

[qwerty223]

what the heck are you talking about?
do a little research and stop making comments about what China are allowed and not allowed to export.
Either way, they would be offering at most JF-17 to Indonesia at the moment.
yea... Chinese always had this fantasy. Note that I dint mention about JF-17. That is another case.
Wait till one day export of J-11B/10 become a fact, then only you shout "what the heck". For the moment, you should stop dreaming. :)

[qwerty223]

what the heck are you talking about?
do a little research and stop making comments about what China are allowed and not allowed to export.
Either way, they would be offering at most JF-17 to Indonesia at the moment.
yea... Chinese always had this fantasy. Note that I dint mention about JF-17. That is another case.
Wait till one day export of J-11B/10 become a fact, then only you shout"what the heck". For the moment, you should stop dreaming. :)

[FutureTank]

yea... Chinese always had this fantasy. Note that I dint mention about JF-17. That is another case.
Wait till one day export of J-11B/10 become a fact, then only you shout"what the heck". For the moment, you should stop dreaming. :)

Its a fact...China to Sell J-10 Fighter to Iran and Syria is expected

[isthvan]

Its a fact...China to Sell J-10 Fighter to Iran and Syria is expected

Wrong... Only source is Kommersant(same source that reported that they want to buy 250 Su-30s). That much about credibility of that report... For time being all J-10 coming from production lines will go to PLAAF and only possible foreign user in foreseeable future is Pakistan... I'm not saying that J-10 wont be exported but at the time being there is no way that they will export planes to Iran and Syria...

[FutureTank]

Wrong... Only source is Kommersant(same source that reported that they want to buy 250 Su-30s). That much about credibility of that report... For time being all J-10 coming from production lines will go to PLAAF and only possible foreign user in foreseeable future is Pakistan... I'm not saying that J-10 wont be exported but at the time being there is no way that they will export planes to Iran and Syria...

This report is from a European defence source, but not confirmed, hence "expected"

[isthvan]

This report is from a European defence source, but not confirmed, hence "expected"

And they got it from Kommersant. It was reported week ago and many defense related sites jumped at Kommersant wagon... btw. Chinese government sources denied this report...

[tphuang]

Its a fact...China to Sell J-10 Fighter to Iran and Syria is expected
That's total bs. Why would China want to export it's best fighter to countries that have high likelihood of getting attacked by US? Think about it. US capture one J-10 fighter, take it home, examine it. What could be worse? China will not compromise national security for $1 billion. The only countries more dangerous to export J-10 to are the NATO countries and the so called new Asian NATO countries.

yea... Chinese always had this fantasy. Note that I dint mention about JF-17. That is another case.
Wait till one day export of J-11B/10 become a fact, then only you shout "what the heck". For the moment, you should stop dreaming.

outside of J-10 to Pakistan, that won't happen for a while. J-11B has nothing to do with MK if you ever did a little research on the project. Russians do not have any control over it. They don't even know how many China is producing. J-10 and J-11B can easily go entirely indigenous if wished. In fact, after a very recent altercation, J-11B's remaining parts are all indigenous now.

[Gripenator]

That's total bs. Why would China want to export it's best fighter to countries that have high likelihood of getting attacked by US? Think about it. US capture one J-10 fighter, take it home, examine it. What could be worse? China will not compromise national security for $1 billion. The only countries more dangerous to export J-10 to are the NATO countries and the so called new Asian NATO countries.

outside of J-10 to Pakistan, that won't happen for a while. J-11B has nothing to do with MK if you ever did a little research on the project. Russians do not have any control over it. They don't even know how many China is producing. J-10 and J-11B can easily go entirely indigenous if wished. In fact, after a very recent altercation, J-11B's remaining parts are all indigenous now.

Men (or boys), face it,

TP is absolutely right here.

Indonesia's logistical and support chain is almost entirely Russian with a smattering of US and other Western equipment which they have trouble getting parts for prior to 2005 due to the Human Rights related military embargo on them and subsequently it would seem they havn't even bothered ordering spare parts for their Ov-10s and F-16As, opting instead for Russian hardware-which their mechanics are familiar with. With a limited budget, it is stupidity to diversify into sources of equipment whose parts are hard to come by or unfamiliar-like the WS-1 turbofans on the J-11B.

There is absolutely no indication the TNI are about to induct Brahmos or add ANY PRC hardware to their inventory given that they seem to have overspent on their latest arms junket, which in my opinion is pure waste given the pressing need for more COIN and CT assets. I've always wondered how two Project 636s and a couple of T-90s can assist in hunting down terrorists in a jungle:)

[FutureTank]

Is the suggestion then that Indonesian Air Force is going to remain at a dozen combat fighters?

[qwerty223]

outside of J-10 to Pakistan, that won't happen for a while. J-11B has nothing to do with MK if you ever did a little research on the project. Russians do not have any control over it. They don't even know how many China is producing. J-10 and J-11B can easily go entirely indigenous if wished. In fact, after a very recent altercation, J-11B's remaining parts are all indigenous now.
Have some knowledge about business and economy.

[FutureTank]

Have some knowledge about business and economy.

That is probably for another forum even if directly related to purchase decisions.

[qwerty223]

That is probably for another forum even if directly related to purchase decisions.
LoL, can you explain why?

[FutureTank]

LoL, can you explain why?

Well, the forum is concerned with military matters and not politics and economy. How Indonesian government makes decisions, and the economy performs IN GENERAL is for the World Affairs Forum unless you can link these directly to the subject of this discussion.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

That's total bs. Why would China want to export it's best fighter to countries that have high likelihood of getting attacked by US? Think about it. US capture one J-10 fighter, take it home, examine it. What could be worse? China will not compromise national security for $1 billion. The only countries more dangerous to export J-10 to are the NATO countries and the so called new Asian NATO countries.

What would be the big deal if a J10 was captured and examened by the USAF? What exactly would they lean about the aircraft that would be so disasterous? It appears the J10's strength is primarilly in the airframe, ie its raw performance, and apart from exact data on stuff like pitch/roll/yaw/climb rates ect ect, they can figure the rest out from publically available data. The only thing the USAF would learn if they captured a J10 that may be a problem for PLAAF would be the exact capabilities of the radar system, (have they even chosen an radar for full production yet?) or perhaps the RWR/EW suite of the platform but i dont see were any suprises would be hiding there. You speak about it like its an F117, like it has some magical capability (like stealth on the F117) that needs to be protected or that the US needs to discover and figure out some way to counter it. Its a 4th gen platform, aparently a pretty good one in terms of A2A but i dont think the US would learn anything particularly usefull if they captured one, they are allready a generation ahead anyway.

outside of J-10 to Pakistan, that won't happen for a while. J-11B has nothing to do with MK if you ever did a little research on the project. Russians do not have any control over it. They don't even know how many China is producing. J-10 and J-11B can easily go entirely indigenous if wished. In fact, after a very recent altercation, J-11B's remaining parts are all indigenous now.

I thought AL31 was chosen as the power plant for the J10, in spite of a local model with more thrust? Anyway the only controll the russians would have over J11B, considering the local avionics, would if anything depend on the terms of the contract, in adition to causing a diplomatic fuss. However i would think PROC would give them the bird if that cource was taken. China was never part of a true communist block, and there is no way Bejing is going to bend to any pressure from moscow now if it is contrary to its interests.

Men (or boys)

Boy!?! Who are you reffering to with that one sunny! You wouldnt be inferring that you consider some members here to be childish are you? :D

Indonesia's logistical and support chain is almost entirely Russian with a smattering of US and other Western equipment which they have trouble getting parts for prior to 2005 due to the Human Rights related military embargo on them and subsequently it would seem they havn't even bothered ordering spare parts for their Ov-10s and F-16As, opting instead for Russian hardware-which their mechanics are familiar with.


In terms of the TNI-AU most of the platforms they operate are of western/US origin not russian. IIRC the last russian platform they flew (apart from the recent purchase of Su 27/30's) was MiG 21's which were replaced in the 1970's which they replaced with AVON sabers. AFAIK their air lift capability is composed of C130 derivatives, again of western origin. So you would think that TNI-AU's logistics chain is geared arround western parts and suppliers, so i dont know why you think indonesian fighter technitions would be more familliar with russian systems because untill resently they have only dealt with american systems. TNI-AU has constantly faced the problem of jumping ship from eastern to western block, therefore rendering their fleet useless again and again, it happened in the late 60's when they jumped from east to west, and again in the 90's with the fight for timorise indipendance.

With a limited budget, it is stupidity to diversify into sources of equipment whose parts are hard to come by or unfamiliar-like the WS-1 turbofans on the J-11B.

With a limited budget, the bang for your buck you can get with J10 over Su30MK would be an attractive option you would think. Anyway J10 is/can be equiped with AL31 which is identicle to SU 30 anyway, and thats the most maintinance intensive bit. As far as not buying a platform because it's logistics come from a diferent source than your other platforms seems to be in opposition to the current state indonesia is in now. Haveing fewer parts suppliers is a good thing however if you can get a more affordable fighter from annother supplier which shares most of the most maintianance intencive parts of the platform, i'm not sure wether that alone is worth it.

Given TNI-AU's painfull past with foregin suppliers, I would assume the most important factor at the moment is finding a supplier that wont cut off all of your spair parts if you do something they dont like, like the west. Therefore you need someone who's strategic interests are very different from yours and does not have a major interest in your geographical area. Therefore russia may be a more attractive option in this respect because it does not have any strategic interest in the area (apart from arms sales). PROC on the other hand does have a large interest geographically, including the spratleys. Indonesia may be unwilling to give PROC the influence over TNI they would have if they were the only parts supplier for their combat air force. Imagine if PLAN made a move on the northern Makaka streight and on Indonesian territory. What would the effect be if all spare parts for TNI-AU's J10's and J11's were cut off a number of months before the incident? Not a pretty one IMO. I'd stick with the russians if it was my choice.

[qwerty223]

Well, the forum is concerned with military matters and not politics and economy. How Indonesian government makes decisions, and the economy performs IN GENERAL is for the World Affairs Forum unless you can link these directly to the subject of this discussion.
Hrm... seems like you are lost. but anyways, tphuang will understand what i meant.

[FutureTank]

Hrm... seems like you are lost. but anyways, tphuang will understand what i meant.

If you think I'm 'lost', why don't you read the forum guidelines again :)

[qwerty223]

If you think I'm 'lost', why don't you read the forum guidelines again :)
LoL, whats the purpose to argue? the reply was not meant for you...

[tphuang]

What would be the big deal if a J10 was captured and examened by the USAF? What exactly would they lean about the aircraft that would be so disasterous? It appears the J10's strength is primarilly in the airframe, ie its raw performance, and apart from exact data on stuff like pitch/roll/yaw/climb rates ect ect, they can figure the rest out from publically available data.

knowing the radar signature from different angles, knowing the radar used for J-10, like how it discriminates targets, knowing the capabilities of its EW suite and MAW, knowing the its flight performance at different speed and altitude are all things that would be extremely helpful. Nothing on J-10 right now is publically available. Do you realize that when China sent over J-8II for the Peace Pearl program, Americans actually took it apart to analyze all of its performance?

The only thing the USAF would learn if they captured a J10 that may be a problem for PLAAF would be the exact capabilities of the radar system, (have they even chosen an radar for full production yet?) or perhaps the RWR/EW suite of the platform but i dont see were any suprises would be hiding there.

Of course they have chosen a radar for full production. You think a plane that has about 150 in service would not have a radar? Just by finding out strength and weakness of a system, you can fight at a more favourable setting.

You speak about it like its an F117, like it has some magical capability (like stealth on the F117) that needs to be protected or that the US needs to discover and figure out some way to counter it. Its a 4th gen platform, aparently a pretty good one in terms of A2A but i dont think the US would learn anything particularly usefull if they captured one, they are allready a generation ahead anyway.

America does not need to learn from J-10. But by examining it, it would know how to make its own planes more invisible to Chinese radar, make J-10's EW suite less effective, fight at an altitude and condition that's more advantageous. J-10 is already at a disadvantage against every likely opponent it will face from US side. If US is totally prepared for this plane, then the disadvantage it will face will be much steeper.

I thought AL31 was chosen as the power plant for the J10, in spite of a local model with more thrust? Anyway the only controll the russians would have over J11B, considering the local avionics, would if anything depend on the terms of the contract, in adition to causing a diplomatic fuss. However i would think PROC would give them the bird if that cource was taken. China was never part of a true communist block, and there is no way Bejing is going to bend to any pressure from moscow now if it is contrary to its interests.

WS-10A is less mature than AL-31 and the more important part is that the production rate of WS-10A has not reached anywhere close to that of AL-31. Also, the Russians are forced to offer more advance variants of AL-31 to match the thrust rating of WS-10A. As for J-11B, it will not be exported for some of the same reason as J-10. China needs all the production slot for its own air force + it will not export its best stuff. It's not even willing to export J-8F to Iran, let alone J-10.

[Preceptor]

Kindly stick to the topic at hand. If members have a disagreement over something outside of legitimate debate, carry it out via PM. If one feels that a post does not conform to the forum rules, report the post and/or PM a Mod and the post(s) will be reviewed. Otherwise, stick to the topic at hand. If a poster fails to abide by the forum rules, the Mod team will step in. No reply to this post is needed.

-Preceptor

[FutureTank]

LoL, whats the purpose to argue? the reply was not meant for you...

It seems then that you quoted the wrong person
Generally it helps if everyone participating in the discussion understand what you mean...

Quote: Originally Posted by FutureTank View Post
Well, the forum is concerned with military matters and not politics and economy. How Indonesian government makes decisions, and the economy performs IN GENERAL is for the World Affairs Forum unless you can link these directly to the subject of this discussion.

Hrm... seems like you are lost. but anyways, tphuang will understand what i meant.

Mod edit: It would behoove members to pay attention to previous posts in a thread. If there is a question regarding a post, PM the poster if the question has to do with understanding their intent. If on the other hand, the question is about the suitability of a post PM or report the post and leave it for the Mod team to take care of.
-Preceptor

[Ozzy Blizzard]

knowing the radar signature from different angles, knowing the radar used for J-10, like how it discriminates targets, knowing the capabilities of its EW suite and MAW, knowing the its flight performance at different speed and altitude are all things that would be extremely helpful. Nothing on J-10 right now is publically available. Do you realize that when China sent over J-8II for the Peace Pearl program, Americans actually took it apart to analyze all of its performance?

I'm sure they would be interested in seeing the nuts and bolts of the beast, and exactly how she performed but its hardly a dealbreaker. The exact functions and ranges of the radar would be handy, as would the exact flight carecteristics, but the radar info would be obsolete in months anyway if that exact model was compromised. However this would not effect the way the platform could be employed or the way it would be combatted, it would be nice to know but the "threat" of a J10 falling into US hands and somehow being compromised is no reason not to export the platform. Apart from learning the exact peramiters of the platform there is no magic capability that if learned will render the system uncompetitive. Thats a tad melodramatic IMO.

Of course they have chosen a radar for full production. You think a plane that has about 150 in service would not have a radar? Just by finding out strength and weakness of a system, you can fight at a more favourable setting.

Sorry, last i heard they didnt have a final system chosen. Do you have any general info? Is it an MSA or PESA?


America does not need to learn from J-10. But by examining it, it would know how to make its own planes more invisible to Chinese radar, make J-10's EW suite less effective, fight at an altitude and condition that's more advantageous. J-10 is already at a disadvantage against every likely opponent it will face from US side. If US is totally prepared for this plane, then the disadvantage it will face will be much steeper.

They MAY get some marginal benifits in terns of LPI, however i doubt they would tweek their LO at all, unless chinese radars use compleatly different principles to the rest of the world's, and even for the EW suite i would bet there are plenty of similarities on how the system works with 4th gen russian systems. So i really dont see how looking over things would change anything major. It would give them exact data to do WVR engagement training and simulations on, but again i really dont see how this is any reason not do export the platform.

WS-10A is less mature than AL-31 and the more important part is that the production rate of WS-10A has not reached anywhere close to that of AL-31. Also, the Russians are forced to offer more advance variants of AL-31 to match the thrust rating of WS-10A.

KK...

As for J-11B, it will not be exported for some of the same reason as J-10. China needs all the production slot for its own air force + it will not export its best stuff. It's not even willing to export J-8F to Iran, let alone J-10.

This is perhaps the major factor in exports within the next ~5 years. However i dont see why the threat of the platform being compromised is a reason to ban all exports of it. The consequences of such would be rather minor i would think. Iranian F14's were compromised to the soviets and that was hardly the end of that platform.