Eurofighter Typhoon Discussion Thread

[Musashi_kenshin]

Please use this as a thread for general discussion on the Typhoon. There are so many different threads out there covering topics - let's centralise the discussion. Could a moderator please sticky this? It's a popular topic so it would be good if people could find the thread easily.

I'll kick off the discussion with a news article already posted on another thread.

Japan may buy Eurofighter, defence minister says (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=allBreakingNews&storyID=2007-10-17T101801Z_01_T350585_RTRIDST_0_JAPAN-DEFENCE-FIGHTERS.XML)

Japan is considering buying Eurofighter Typhoons to replace part of its ageing air force fleet, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said in an interview on Wednesday.

Tokyo had shown interest in buying the Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor, which boasts stealth capabilities far superior to those of any other aircraft available, but the U.S. government is reluctant to allow the technology to be exported, even to a close ally such as Japan.

"The F-22 is an exceptional aircraft," Ishiba said. "But we at the Defence Ministry have not decided that it is absolutely necessary for Japan."

Ishiba said the strongest alternative among planes manufactured by other countries was the Eurofighter. "The French Rafale is difficult to use. We certainly wouldn't choose a Russian fighter plane. So I think it would be the Eurofighter Typhoon," he said.

This is certainly a huge boost for Typhoon's further export order chances. I think that bar the Americans doing a speedy U-turn and make the F-22 available (near impossible given the need to remove congressional controls) this puts Typhoon in pole position.

[Scorpion82]

@Musashi,
to answer your question from the other thread. I have some publications which speak about the responsibilities. Additionally I'm closely follow Eurofighter's marketing efforts. In 2001 EADS insisted a take part in the Czech republic competition for 24-36 new fighters, but eventually refused the bid due unusual requests from the Czech such as prices in czech crones and offers & documentation in czech. We know that the original plans changed after the high water problems in summer 2002.
I don't know why this or that country is an assigned responsiblity for this or that partner, but I assume it has to do with traditional ties.
Bulgaria is not that likely yes, but an RFI was issued to Eurofighter.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I just have a couple of questions about that bad ass typhoon of yours!:D

Do you guys see any real problems occuring with Trache 3, and are there plans for tranche 1+2 tiffies to undergoe a trance upgrade programe to T3 standard??? If so do you see any problems as far as availability of a huge chunck of the RAF's orbat undergoring extensive upgrades?

Is there any chance of 2D/3D TVC being incorperated in Tranche 3??? I heard some rumers but i cant find anything concrete. Is it worth the weight/thrust/maintinance penalty, considering the impersive agility the platform allready has???

Are you exited about the next red flag? How do you think she will go???

[Scorpion82]

Do you guys see any real problems occuring with Trache 3, and are there plans for tranche 1+2 tiffies to undergoe a trance upgrade programe to T3 standard??? If so do you see any problems as far as availability of a huge chunck of the RAF's orbat undergoring extensive upgrades?

Discussions about the numbers are underway for years, already in 2002 the UK insisted to reduce the numbers. Until now nothing has changed. True is that especially Italy and the UK have some funding problems in the future with other ongoing projects such as new carriers, F-35 etc.. The contracts leave little room for reductions, as long as not all partners agree and Germany and Spain have no interest in reducing their commitment. It looks more like Tranche 3 examples won't differ that much from Tranche 3 to save costs in the short term, while upgrades could be realised at a later time.
Tranche 1 examples will all be brought up to block 5 standard, but it is unknown if they will be converted to a higher standard at a later time. The Luftwaffe for example has currently no interest in bringing up its Tranche 1 aircraft to Tranche 2 or 3. Therefore it remains uncertain how this situation will develope.


Is there any chance of 2D/3D TVC being incorperated in Tranche 3??? I heard some rumers but i cant find anything concrete. Is it worth the weight/thrust/maintinance penalty, considering the impersive agility the platform allready has???

A 3-D TVN was developed by MTU & ITP back in the 90's. The nozzle was ground tested on an EJ200 and had impressive characteristics (sweep angle 23.5°/s, speed 110°/s). Since then 3-D TVC is offered as a possible option by the industry, but the customers see no need/have no requirement. I think it's very unlikely to see TVC being fitted to the Typhoon anytime soon. Maybe an export customer might require it, but I don't think the original customers do so. As you said the benefits would be limited and probably not worth the effort for the offsets.


Are you exited about the next red flag? How do you think she will go???

I fear we won't get much info about that. BTW when is it supposed to run?

[Scorpion82]

Some news
Eurofighter Launches Offer for Multi-Role Planes in Romania


(Source: Xinhua News Agency; issued Oct. 22, 2007)



The Eurofighter consortium is ready to deliver 24 Typhoon aircraft to the Romanian Air Force in the 2010-2014 period, the program director for Romania Giuseppe Paoletti said on Friday at a press conference organized within the EXPOMIL 2007 show in Bucharest.

Moreover, the consortium is willing to provide the first operational squadron of Typhoon warplanes in 2010.

The Eurofighter official underscored that Finnmecanica of Italy was interested in buying the local Craiova-based Aircraft Factory, which may offer technical support and maintenance for the Typhoon warplane.

Giuseppe Paoletti hinted that if the program in Romania unfolded well, the plane might be assembled in the country. He added the firm might bring also other subcontractors for the offset contract that is usually signed in such cases.

According to Paoletti, the purchase price is comparable to the one of the twin-engined warplanes, but the maintenance costs are much lower than those for other models.

"These are not cheap aircraft, but a Typhoon warplane can carry out missions that, in the case of other aircraft models, require several aircraft," explained the representative of the Eurofighter consortium.

The Eurofighter consortium presented at EXPOMIL its offer for replacing the MiG-21 LanceR fighter jets of the Romanian Air Force. According to the representatives of the consortium, Typhoon is the most important high-technology program in Europe and the main European collaboration program in defense, involving over 120,000 people.

www.defense-aerospace.com

[F-15 Eagle]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.:nutkick

[Musashi_kenshin]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.

Then I'm not sure you know much about the JASDF's needs. The F-35 would arrive far too late to replace the F-4s - that deadline is non-negotiable. I don't think the Super Hornet is what Japan wants either.

The only real American option is a Strike Eagle variant - even then there are concerns whether that will cut the mustard in the future against the PLAAF. I think the Japanese defence minister's comments shows that they are taking the Typhoon very seriously - certainly that's what I've heard from defence correspondents.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Then I'm not sure you know much about the JASDF's needs. The F-35 would arrive far too late to replace the F-4s - that deadline is non-negotiable. I don't think the Super Hornet is what Japan wants either.

The only real American option is a Strike Eagle variant - even then there are concerns whether that will cut the mustard in the future against the PLAAF. I think the Japanese defence minister's comments shows that they are taking the Typhoon very seriously - certainly that's what I've heard from defence correspondents.

Sertainly soudns like it would be most suitable replacement of the F4. The cruise missile threat is a serious consideration for JSDF, thats one reason why they wanted F22 so badly. F15E does enjoy range and payload benifits, but F15J enjoys those anyway. The japanese want A2A capbablility above all else, and Typhoon looks like the most capable platform that fulfills their criteria. A 2 tiered force of EF2000 & F35 looks like the most likely outcome, it should be a very capable force structure. The only other real ulternative is advanced F15E variants, al la F15SG. However they would get APG 63(v) 3 stock with new F15J+, something thats a BIG advantage over Typhoon. Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

[Izzy1]

Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

48 of Saudi's Typhoons will be manufactured in Saudi via Warton-supllied kit.

Given that, and as important as a Japanese order would be to Eurofighter GmbH, I can't see any reasons to object to license production, technology transfer or the possible integration of Japanese-sourced avionics into their platforms.

[Musashi_kenshin]

Annother issue will be that they will want to maunfacture the platform under liscence, will the consortium be cool with that???

Yes, they've already said they'd do that. They've even suggested making a customised model to suit Japan's needs better.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Yes, they've already said they'd do that. They've even suggested making a customised model to suit Japan's needs better.

Aahh, EF2KJ????? I wonder what we would be looking at? CFT's? Japanese weapons? New Radar? It will (would) be very interesting to see what kint of final configuration they will order.

[Izzy1]

BAE has today announced that Eurofighter is being officially tendered for the Swiss Air Force's New Fighter Aircraft (NFA) programme.

EADS Germany will lead the consortium's bid and economic offset programme.

[European]

So, the new candidate are Switzerland, Japan and Romania?

:) :) :)

[Scorpion82]

Don't forget about Turkey, Norway, Denmark, Bulgaria and India. Though the chances are different for the aircraft.

[swerve]

I doubt that Japan will buy the typhoon, most likely the F-35 or F-15E or the F/A-18 E/F.:nutkick

For the tenth (at least!) time -

F-35 is a candidate for future purchases, but not this one. It cannot be delivered in time. The aircraft which now need replacing cannot be kept in service until F-35 can be delivered. The JASDF will do all in its power to avoid having its front-line strength cut by one-third while it waits for F-35.

Gottit?

[Scorpion82]

IPA6 (BS031/ZJ 938) completed its maiden flight today. The aircraft is built to the Tranche 1 standard, but fitted with Tranche 2 avionics.

www.eurofighter.com

First Flight of Eurofighter Typhoon IPA6
Tranche 2 Avionics now in Flight Test
01 November 2007

Hallbergmoos – The first Eurofighter Typhoon loaded with Tranche 2 avionics took to the air today at BAE Systems’ Warton facility. Instrumented Production Aircraft Six (IPA6) completed its maiden flight under the control of Mark Bowman, Eurofighter Typhoon test pilot at BAE Systems.

IPA6 at Warton will be used for Tranche 2 flight test. It’s first prominent task will be to accomplish Type Acceptance for Block 8, the first capability standard of the second Tranche Eurofighter Typhoon, in April 2008.

While IPA6 (BS031) is essentially a Tranche 1 standard aircraft, it uses the full Tranche 2 mission computer suite and avionics features. IPA7 (GS029) is the first aircraft that represents the full Tranche 2 build standard. The first flight of IPA7 is expected before the end of 2007 at the Manching site of EADS, Germany.

The first Tranche 2 EJ200 engine had already flown on IPA2 in Italy on 14 September. This test aircraft, operated by Alenia, will undertake the necessary evaluation and certification work for this new EJ200 version.

The significant Tranche 2 features focus mainly on the new mission computers which deliver the higher processing and memory capacity required for the integration of future weapons such as Meteor, Storm Shadow and Taurus. Differences in the build standard to Tranche 1 are related to changes in production technology or obsolescence.

The Eurofighter consortium will deliver 251 aircraft, 91 to the United Kingdom, 79 to Germany (including 15 aircraft originally contracted by Austria), 47 to Italy and 34 to Spain. The original Tranche 2 production contract was signed 14 December 2004. Deliveries of Tranche 2 Eurofighter Typhoons to all four Partner Nations will begin in Summer 2008 and are scheduled to run until 2013. 18 aircraft are already in final assembly at the partner companies Alenia Aeronautica, BAE Systems, EADS CASA and EADS Deutschland.

[spsun100001]

There was an article in this months Air Forces Monthly suggesting that the UK might seek to exit from its tranche 3 commitments due to the Suadi buy. I understand the Saudi buy will push back the UK procurement for tranche 3 as their aircraft will be on the production line ahead of ours. I'm not sure how it could get us out of the contractual straightjacket of having to buy the aircraft or pay prohibitive compensation.

Can anyone shed any light on this? There was another story circulating a couple of weeks back that potential unit price increases for tranche 3 aircraft could have the Italians backing out of the programme. Is there some sort of exit opportunity if unit costs rise?

Also, the AFM article said that the RAF would rather have the tranche 1 and 2 aircraft upgraded at the expense of procuring tranche 3 if they had to make the choice between the tranche 3 aircraft and the upgrades for the earlier tranches. Not sure if that was just editorial opinion embedded in the article or is based on an accepted consensus.

[Scorpion82]

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Since 2002 the UK insists to cancel tranche 3, until now nothing has been confirmed. The Saudis will get 24 aircraft originally intended for the RAF in the 2008 - 2010 time frame. The UK will later receive the aircraft, that doesn't mean the overall UK order is reduced. The situation is not that different in Italy. The italians insist to reduce their tranche 3 buy, but nothing is fixed by now. Whether the unit price will go up is likely to depend on the equipment which has yet to be selected.

[Pingu]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

Personally, I have always thought this is the best option. Although it would incur cancellation costs, the savings from 88 airframes of the third tranche would be significant and the savings could be spent on getting more capable Typhoons into service sooner.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge. Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money. By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Again, I believe that this is much more likely to happen (and be in service sooner) at the expense of 88 third tranche airframes. I also do not see the need for 232 Typhoons to replace a hundred or so Tornado F3s and sixty or so Jaguars. I believe a smaller force of more capable aircraft will be more cost effective and of more value to the RAF.

[jaffo4011]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

Personally, I have always thought this is the best option. Although it would incur cancellation costs, the savings from 88 airframes of the third tranche would be significant and the savings could be spent on getting more capable Typhoons into service sooner.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge. Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money. By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Again, I believe that this is much more likely to happen (and be in service sooner) at the expense of 88 third tranche airframes. I also do not see the need for 232 Typhoons to replace a hundred or so Tornado F3s and sixty or so Jaguars. I believe a smaller force of more capable aircraft will be more cost effective and of more value to the RAF.

interestingly,air combat magazine ran an article recently on the rafale/typhoon and compared their capabilities.on the subject of their radars it woulds appear that the radar in the rafale is only a partial aesa type with performance still some way behind the typhoons captor in range and power etc.i think it pays not to automatically assume that just because an aircraft has the latest'in vogue'gadget that it actually superior to a more traditional type.
all things being equal aesa appears to be the way to go,but it only offers improvements in a co-ordinated and complete package....

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....

[Alpha Epsilon]

I was watching a house of commons debate recently and it was said that scrapping RAFs third tranche and upgrading all Tranche 1 and 2 aircraft to Tranche 3 standard is under consideration.

They are also considering many things with my preferred option being all 232 being purchased.

At the moment, Tranche 1 and 2 Typhoons do not seem to be at the cutting edge.

Tranche 1 Block 5 is certainly at the cutting edge of air to air combat, Tranche 2 will be a great multirole fighter.


Aircraft such as Rafale, latest F-15s, Super Hornets etc are starting to be developed with AESA radars and other technologies which give the Typhoon a run for its money.

And you're assuming the Typhoon won't evolve? Tranche 2 is a leap from Tranche 1 for example.


By the time all the Tranche 2 aircraft are built, other (arguably more capable) aircraft will have been round for a few years.

By the time all Tranche 2s are built Rafale will have had an AESA for only a very short timeframe (probably maximum of one year) and only on a few aircraft. The first Tranche 2s are coming into service in just a few months. Also an AESA is being developed for Typhoon, it already flew on a development aircraft, the Saudis are said to be keen to further fund it.


The idea that Tranche 3 aircraft will not differ too much to tranche 2 aircraft dissappoints me. I think that given the cost and significance of the Typhoon project, a fully developed version should be developed, with an AESA radar, CFTs and full PIRATE capability.

Pirate will have full capability with Tranche 2 already.

[neil]

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....

I agree that the RAF needs as many as possible Typhoons. However the RAF has for a long time not had 165 Tornado F3's. Many airframes have been retired already. If you look at the current order of battle, you'll see.

OCU -about 22 airframes
25 Sqn - about 16 airframes
42 Sqn - about 16 airframes
111 Sqn - about 16 airframes

That gives you a total of about 60 to 70 aircraft. These are rough numbers and I stand to be corrected.

The UK has an extremely pressing need to equip its new Future Carriers with air groups. And with the cost of F35B ballooning, I think we will almost certainly see at least a reduced Typhoon buy with more money allocated to the F35 programme.

[Pingu]

They are also considering many things with my preferred option being all 232 being purchased.

I never said there weren't any other options being considered. I said that this was one of them and it happened to be my prefered option as I believe it will be the only way of making full upgardes to the Typhoon affordable.

Tranche 1 Block 5 is certainly at the cutting edge of air to air combat, Tranche 2 will be a great multirole fighter.

I believe the Typhoon is a great aircraft. All I am saying is that unless updated to its full extent it could fall behind. As I have said, Previous generation aircraft are gaining parity (in some respects) with the Typhoon at the relatively low cost of an upgrade.

And you're assuming the Typhoon won't evolve? Tranche 2 is a leap from Tranche 1 for example..

I am not saying it wont evolve, I'm saying how I think the timing and extent of its evolution should take place. At the moment, the Typhoon has a lot of potential (CFTs, TVC, CEASAR etc), but I believe that the European partners involved need to push more to make the improvements happen as atm, there does not seem to be a strong enough interest.

By the time all Tranche 2s are built Rafale will have had an AESA for only a very short timeframe (probably maximum of one year) and only on a few aircraft. The first Tranche 2s are coming into service in just a few months. Also an AESA is being developed for Typhoon, it already flew on a development aircraft, the Saudis are said to be keen to further fund it..

Okay, perhaps the Typhoons radar is not as bad as I may have suggested, but there is a thread on this forum about the Typhoon vs Rafale and it seems that the Rafale could become a more capable aircraft if upgraded to its own full potential and if I'm right, most likely at a lower cost than the Typhoon.

CEASAR is the name of the AESA radar you mention. I am not suggesting that there is no interest in this, but I am suggesting that there needs to be stronger interest and the CEASAR should without doubt be installed.

Pirate will have full capability with Tranche 2 already.

Yes, I stand corrected, the Tranche 2 will have full PIRATE capability. Does anybody know if the PIRATE will have a FLIR/LD mode for ATG roles. I have heard rumour of this but wonder about its value, when extrenal pods such as Litening and Sniper are about.

[Pingu]

also dont forget that the uk has 165 f3's and the jags are already out of service.232 aircraft is the minimum that the raf needs.they are alraeady having to pool the tornados(f3 and gr4) and remove individual squadron markings to make ends meet....

I have heard this before. What confuses me about this is that AFAIK, the 165 Jags and F3s includes reserve/attrition/training aircraft, does it not?

[Scorpion82]

Yes, I stand corrected, the Tranche 2 will have full PIRATE capability. Does anybody know if the PIRATE will have a FLIR/LD mode for ATG roles. I have heard rumour of this but wonder about its value, when extrenal pods such as Litening and Sniper are about.

"Full" PIRATE is just about software functionalities, the hardware is complete and by the time Tranche 2 aircraft will feature full PIRATE, block 5 will be upgraded as well.
PIRATE has no laser and therefore neither ranging nor designation. The system performs as FLIR however and will be able to track priority ground targets.

[swerve]

I have heard this before. What confuses me about this is that AFAIK, the 165 Jags and F3s includes reserve/attrition/training aircraft, does it not?

IIRC, 165 was the number of Tornado ADVs originally ordered by the RAF. By the time the last was delivered, I expect a few had been lost, so it's unlikely we ever had quite that many, & we certainly don't now.

The first 18 were F.2, not F.3, & none of those is now in service. 16 were used to provide airframe parts for damaged F.3s. The F.3s have suffered the usual attrition. Some have been broken down for spares, some lost. As an example, look at the 24 leased to Italy - only 4 were returned to RAF service, according to the list linked to below. One was kept by Italy.

http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/UK/f3_to_italy.htm

Normal - numbers diminish with time.

[barra]

Hi Guys,

Quick question from left field. I was looking at some photo's of the eurofighter doing AAR. The bucket seemed to me to be horribly close to the canards. Does anyone know of any reported damage to the canards during mid air refuelling? or is maybe my fertile imagination. I have seen more than a few Hornets lose their pitot probes due to boggy pilots learning to AAR.

Cheers,

Barra

[Scorpion82]

Hi Guys,

Quick question from left field. I was looking at some photo's of the eurofighter doing AAR. The bucket seemed to me to be horribly close to the canards. Does anyone know of any reported damage to the canards during mid air refuelling? or is maybe my fertile imagination. I have seen more than a few Hornets lose their pitot probes due to boggy pilots learning to AAR.

Cheers,

Barra

Check www.eurofighter.com, there're many pictures of Typhoons.

[barra]

Hi,

Thanks for the link mate, see how close the bucket is to that canard. That was what I was on about. With the Hornet the bucket tends to ride a shockwave around the nose of the aircraft. If the pilot doesn't get it right the bucket can end up swirling around the nose of the aircraft and take the pitot tube and AoA probe with it. If you get up close to some of 2OCU's Hornets the scars are still visible. I was just wondering if the bucket handled in a similar manner to this on the EF? :unknown

Cheers

[Scorpion82]

Let's say I never heared about any problems or incidents. In such situations canard movement is mainly limited to minor movements for stabilisation.

[Scorpion82]

News related to the LDP+LGB integration and helmet

Direct Hit for Typhoon


(Source: BAE Systems; issued Nov. 12, 2007)



DUBAI --- The Typhoon Combined Test Team (CTT), comprising staff from BAE Systems and the RAF, has successfully completed the first mission to drop a laser guided bomb, scoring a direct hit at the Aberporth range in the UK.

The trials aircraft, BT005, flown by Flt Lt Dave Bowlzer from 17 Squadron and BAE Systems test pilot Paul Stone, completed the first fully laser guided weapon release using the Litening III laser designator pod (LDP). The weapon dropped was an Enhanced Paveway II which was successfully guided onto the target to achieve the direct hit. This live weapon release follows a series of trial sorties with the LDP and dummy weapons to prove the mission and avionics systems.

This significant achievement means that the team is some way ahead of the planned schedule to deliver a full precision-guided, air-to-surface capability in advance of Typhoon’s expected Operational Employment date in mid 2008.

Commenting on the achievement of this significant milestone, BAE Systems Typhoon Project Pilot Mark Bowman said: “The successful proving of this important capability, reaffirms the significant progress we are making in meeting the multi-role requirements expected of this cutting-edge aircraft. The planning and execution of the trial has set new standards for future co-operative trials activities in the UK. BAE Systems fully identifies with the value of combined trials and looks forward to supporting increasing levels of activity in this expanding area of flight test activity”.

Following analysis of the results, further operational tests and evaluations will take place in early 2008.


BAE Systems is the premier global defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With 96,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems' sales exceeded £15 billion (US $27 billion) in 2006 on a pro forma basis, assuming BAE Systems had owned Armor Holdings Inc for the whole of 2006. (ends)


Typhoon Heading for Success


(Source: BAE Systems; issued Nov. 12, 2007)



DUBAI –-- Typhoon’s world leading helmet, known as Head Equipment Assembly (HEA), is currently undergoing its latest development trials.

The current trials are focusing on the capability of the helmet system to display flight reference information together with various aircraft weapons and sensor data. The integration of the Night Vision Enhancement (NVE) devices is also being tested to prove their limitations and acceptability for operations.

This set of trials is part of the ongoing development work that will eventually include integrated Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) protection in addition to the NVE capability. Recent tests with pilots in a ground-based simulator wearing the full NBC flying kit have shown very promising results.

Dave Brown, head of the HEA Development team at BAE Systems said, “The latest round of development flights trials represents a significant milestone in the overall HEA development programme and the results have been very encouraging. There are still a number of challenges ahead in delivering this key element of Typhoon’s capability into frontline service but these test flights will provide key information that will enable us to continue improving the equipment with an aim of delivery into full operational service by 2009.”

The Typhoon helmet, which will provide the Typhoon pilots with a helmet which displays key mission data onto the pilot’s helmet visor, is being developed by BAE Systems staff at Rochester in Kent, UK and integrated by the BAE Systems team at Warton in Lancashire, UK.


BAE Systems is the premier global defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With 96,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems' sales exceeded £15 billion (US $27 billion) in 2006 on a pro forma basis, assuming BAE Systems had owned Armor Holdings Inc for the whole of 2006.

-ends-

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.30903247.1194971121.5TPibn8A AAEAAGB7mJgAAAAR&modele=jdc_34

[vetrival]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

[swerve]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

I believe you will not be able to find out the definitive capabilities of Typhoon tranche 3, because AFAIK, they have not yet been decided. I don't think TVC is on the agenda, though.

[Sintra]

I've been tryin to find out the definitive capabilities of the tranche three Eurofighters and wether it will have a credible AESA radar and 3D/2D TVC, so far I have not found anything substantial on the topic. Can someone help me out?PLEASE.

Also when will the MBDA Meteor be ready to be integrated with the Eurofighter?

You havent find anything definitive because it´s not decided yet.
Industry has presented (by the end of 2007) a very vast range of possibilities to the four consortium partners.
Those proposal´s are being discussed right now and until the production contract his signed the only thing you can do his wait. Expect a signed contract by the end of this year/first half of 2009.
On one end of the spectrum, Great Britain and Italy "dump" the entire Tranche 3 (highly unlikely, there are massive contract penalties involved) and the Germain and Spanish "Phoon´s" are an exact copy of the Tranche 2 fighters that are being delivered by now. On the opositte end of the spectrum, the four partners receive the entire Tranche3 and the planes will be a massive advance over the Tranche2, CFT´s, stronger engines with AVEN style Thrust Vectoring, RCS cut by half, IR reduction techniques, a next generation gimballed AESA antena (highly unlikely, massive development costs associated).
Every one of the items mentioned above has been offered by industry with a certain price tag, it´s all a question of costs.
The picture will be a lot clearer by the end of this year and something might come out at Farnborough but i doubt that the contract will be signed by then.

[kato]

I don't think TVC is on the agenda, though.
It is. A Eurofighter was equipped with 3D TVC EJ200s in 1998 for trials. It's not definitely on the agenda yet to include this new nozzle, but some nations in the consortium - and the production companies - are interested in including it for Tranche 3.
Although, considering some nations would love to scrap/reduce Tranche 3 for cost considerations, i doubt Tranche 3 modification will really be anywhere near as extensive as originally envisioned.

[Sintra]

It is. A Eurofighter was equipped with 3D TVC EJ200s in 1998 for trials. It's not definitely on the agenda yet to include this new nozzle, but some nations in the consortium - and the production companies - are interested in including it for Tranche 3.
Although, considering some nations would love to scrap/reduce Tranche 3 for cost considerations, i doubt Tranche 3 modification will really be anywhere near as extensive as originally envisioned.

The 1998 EJ230 AVEN TVC engine was never fitted to a Typhoon. It did a lot of bench test hours, but was never fitted to a fighter.
I am not aware that any of the four consortium partners had expressed something more than a very "light" interest in TVC. The RAF has expressed a keen interest in CFT´s, or at least bigger external tanks, the German MOD paid part of the CAESAR tests but TVC? Only the Industry has pushed the idea.
I do think that Swerve his correct on this one.

[Scorpion82]

Not even the final T2 standard (block 15) has yet been decided. I have some doubts we'll know any concrete details about the T3s block 20 & 25 aircraft much before 2010 at all. The specific configurations are just decided some 4 years before delivery. I think an AESA radar and CFTs are likely, TVC is unlikely as there is no real interest. Further improvments might include further developing the DASS and NCW capabilities and weapons integration. Meteor integration is planned for block 15 aircraft, but integration is negotiated seperately. BTW there was never an EJ230 or EJ270 this were just proposed suggestions for increased thrust engines, it might also be that these engines if they are developed will be designated EJ200 MK103 or something like that. The EJ200 used on T1 aircraft is called MK101 and I assume that of the T2 examples will be MK102 due some changes, though that hasn't been officially confirmed.

[Sintra]

. BTW there was never an EJ230 or EJ270 this were just proposed suggestions for increased thrust engines, it might also be that these engines if they are developed will be designated EJ200 MK103 or something like that. .

I dont know if the "EJ230" designation went official, but in the late nineties the enginer staff at ITP (Industria de Turbo Propulsores) called the AVEN TVC test engine the "230" on a routine basis.

Cheers

[JWCook]

Early Typhoon engines designations are:-

EJ200-DVE in 1988 (test-bed only - various changes throughout life to support development of flight engines)
EJ200-01A in 1995 (first flight standard with C1 DECU)
EJ200-01C in 1997 (modified HP compressor and reduced smoke combustor)
EJ200-03A in 1998 (all-blisk fan and new C2 DECU. Lean-burn combustor with vaporisers replaced by atomisers)
EJ200-03B in 1999 (modified LP and HP compressors, and rich-burn combustor with atomisers)
EJ200-03Z in 1999 ("production look-alike" - modified HPC and HPT, new OGV and LPT)
EJ200-101 EIS Production engine in 2002 (1st batch of engines have new LPT)
EJ200-101 FOC Production engine in 2004 (modified HPC and LPT)

I don't know if the EJ230 series were given anything official, or if the incremental nature of developments have blurred the lines of EJ200/220/230/270 as the emphasis in now on extending life of the engine not on thrust as it doesn't seem to be lacking in that department.


Cheers

[Fritz]

I think Typhoon is allready the 2nd fastest dry thrust plane on the planet, what i'd like to see on it is a couple of CFT to rectify its one flaw.

[jaffo4011]

Germany to order a total of 180 Eurofighter Typhoons
Written on June 13, 2008 – 2:33 pm | by FIDSNS |

Yesterday during an event celebrating the phasing-out of the F-4 F Phantom and the Eurofighter’s new role in Jagdgeschwader 74 German Air Force Three-Star-General Arne Kreuzinger-Janik has declared that “The Eurofighter is combat ready at Neuburg”.

The Commander of the German Air Force Command also responded to media questions at concerning Tranche 3. He confirmed the German Air Force would need the ordered total of 180 Eurofighter Typhoon, this number being confirmed time and time again by the German Parliament. With Eurofighter Typhoon now in full service, the German Air Force can meet international obligations towards NATO and the European Union.

In 1990’s the Germans wanted to withdraw from the Eurofighter project but the could not leave for legal reasons.

[AegisFC]

That's neat and all but their already is a Typhoon thread, I'll go ahead and move this post.

[Vivendi]

"BAE shoots for the moon to deliver the Typhoon"

(h)ttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/06/19/cmjbae119.xml

Geological surveys covering the final assembly unit at BAE's Warton factory near Preston, Lancashire, showed that the earth would be moving fractionally - just one or two millimetres - as the final parts for the twin engine jet packed with delicate electronic gadgetry were moved into place. It was all down to the moon. The gravitational pull of the moon meant that the tidal flow of the nearby River Ribble ever so gently disturbed the gravel under the Warton assembly hangar, potentially jeopardising the performance and efficiency of the Mach 2 jet because of the failure to align key components correctly.


The moon still plays with the tides around Warton and the earth continues to move, but BAE engineers and executives now breathe a regular sigh of relief and the RAF is said to be delighted with the behaviour of the Typhoon and its operational efficiency. It's all down to imagination, innovation and engineering ingenuity. BAE engineers came up with a brilliant solution to cope with the moon and ground movement and meet the demanding technical specifications of the final assembly phase. Two huge "floating'' concrete rafts on the hangar floor hold the key.


Interesting... is this a known problem for the assembly of other "less advanced" fighters, like the F-16, Rafale or Gripen?

Presumably, if they had built the factory on solid rock in the first place they would not have experienced this problem?


V.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Interesting...fighters, like the F-16, Rafale or Gripen?



V.

I don't know if you can really lump Rafale in that pile.

[stigmata]

The 1998 EJ230 AVEN TVC engine was never fitted to a Typhoon. It did a lot of bench test hours, but was never fitted to a fighter. A canard delta wing fighter like Typhoon allready has outstanding high speed manouvering, i can't see any justification of improve on near perfection.

[contedicavour]

Germany to order a total of 180 Eurofighter Typhoons
Written on June 13, 2008 – 2:33 pm | by FIDSNS |

Yesterday during an event celebrating the phasing-out of the F-4 F Phantom and the Eurofighter’s new role in Jagdgeschwader 74 German Air Force Three-Star-General Arne Kreuzinger-Janik has declared that “The Eurofighter is combat ready at Neuburg”.

The Commander of the German Air Force Command also responded to media questions at concerning Tranche 3. He confirmed the German Air Force would need the ordered total of 180 Eurofighter Typhoon, this number being confirmed time and time again by the German Parliament. With Eurofighter Typhoon now in full service, the German Air Force can meet international obligations towards NATO and the European Union.

In 1990’s the Germans wanted to withdraw from the Eurofighter project but the could not leave for legal reasons.

Interesting... so the Luftwaffe will basically operate Typhoons only... because if you order all 180 presumably the batch 3 will end up replacing also the Tornado...
I would have expected Germany eventually to also join F35/JSF for at least some Tornado replacement.

cheers

[neil]

Interesting... so the Luftwaffe will basically operate Typhoons only... because if you order all 180 presumably the batch 3 will end up replacing also the Tornado...
I would have expected Germany eventually to also join F35/JSF for at least some Tornado replacement.

cheers

I believe the Luftwaffe plan is to operate all 180 Typhoons and some 75 Tornado's for a while. (as from 2015 was mentioned)

After that.. I think it will be Typhoon only yes. (plus maybe a UCAV?)

[kato]

I believe the Luftwaffe plan is to operate all 180 Typhoons and some 75 Tornado's for a while. (as from 2015 was mentioned)


Target Structure for Luftwaffe 2017; reduction in wing numbers to be completed 2009:

- 5 x Wing Fighter-Bomber / Eurofighter
- 1 x Wing ECR / Tornado (JBG 32)
- 1 x Wing Recce / Tornado + UAV HALE/MALE (AG 51)
- 2 x Wing Air Transport / A400M
- 1 x Wing Helo Transport / NH90

The Recce Wing will go to only one Tornado squadron in the early 2010s, second squadron will be UAV HALE/MALE. Remaining Tornados (about 80, for four squadrons) to be upgraded for these future roles starting around 2011/2012. UCAVs are potential successor for Tornado for the ECR wing.
Somewhat interesting - at the moment in particular - is what will happen to the nukes, since Eurofighter never had B61-4/7 gravity bombs integrated. If the concept is continued, JBG32 could move and e.g. assign a squadron for that additional task.

edit:
combat wing = 36 aircraft (18 per squadron)
transport wing = 20 aircraft (10 per squadron)
helo wing = 42 aircraft (21 per squadron)

[vetrival]

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a major contender in the MMRCA competition which was initiated by India. I have a few questions about the Eurofighter in this regard.

1)Is the consortium offering an AESA radar for the aircrafts they plan to sell to the IAF?

2)When is an AESA radar going to be operational on the Eurofighter?

3)Will the consortium go ahead with the developement of the Tranche-3 aircrafts? If yes then when will it be operational?

Could someone please answer these questions.

[swerve]

1) If India wants one, yes, AFAIK.

2) Nobody knows. It depends on political & financial decisions. A better question would be "When could an AESA radar be operational on the Eurofighter, if the decision to field one was taken now?".

3) Yes, because some of the partners want the aircraft, & the agreement binds all partners. But it is possible for Tranche 3 to be reduced in size, if all partners agree. As for when - again, it depends on political & financial decisions which have not yet been taken.

[Pingu]

I've heard that there is debate over whether to update the CAPTOR with an AESA intenna (CEASAR), or whether to skip a stage and go straight ahead with a next generation, new build AESA (AMSAR). I'm in favour of the latter, but wonder whether AMSAR would be developed in time for the first build of tranche 3 airframes.

I feel that CFTs should be the next priority. It would be interesting to see how they affect performance. It is said that the typhoon is not capable of "true supercruise" in that it cannot supercruise while loaded with stores such as fuel tanks. Perhaps a CFT equiped Typhoon with a standard load of 4 semi-reccessed Meteors and 4 ASRAAMS would be capable of supercruise or at least a higher and more efficient cruise than is currently facilitated by the current QRA conifguration etc.

As for improved signature reduction and DASS etc, I doubt any of those will be seen as they are of low priority and funds are so tight. As for engines, I would not imagine we will see those either due to the cost of engine developement and the fact that more engine power is not neccesarily required.

One thing that I have always been curious about is to what extent any tranche 3 features will be retrofitted to earlier tranches. If AMSAR is developed, then maybe CEASAR will be adopted for earlier tranches to save money.

Does anyone know where HMS delevopement falls into the current Typhoon developement plans. Is the fully developed HMS going to be seen in tranche 2?

[2S1]

3)Will the consortium go ahead with the developement of the Tranche-3 aircrafts? If yes then when will it be operational?


I note the London Times is running a story today that the MoD is looking to sell a further batch of Typhoons to the Saudis, with these coming from the RAF's Tranche-3 allocation.

I would be surprised if a similar proposal was not part of Typhoon's potential Indian MMRCA offer with HAL taking on the bulk of production their initial delivery.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article4493237.ece

[ASFC]

Well I would not listen to a British Paper first off-they tend to scare-monger among other things and suffer from the British medias lack of understanding of defence matters.

There is also the fact that the RAF want as many of the 232 as they can get-they don't want to get into a situation where they lose some of the 144 Fleet they intend to operate and have no spares to replace, whether they be from reserves or to purchase.

What is much more likely (having visited 29 Sqn at Coningsby and having been told one of our next Typhoon Sqns might be delayed due to this) is that we will divert some now to the Saudis and save some money and get our full order later on, although details were sketchy as to how it would work out.

[Scorpion82]

What is much more likely (having visited 29 Sqn at Coningsby and having been told one of our next Typhoon Sqns might be delayed due to this) is that we will divert some now to the Saudis and save some money and get our full order later on, although details were sketchy as to how it would work out.

It's no news that the No.6 squadron won't stand up in 2009 as originally planned, but in 2011 now due to the Saudi deal. The Saudis will get a first batch of 24 Typhoons (6 twin seaters) which are diverted from RAF Tranche 2 production slots to ensure delivery on schedule starting in 2009. These missing aircraft will be later produced meaning they will be added to the and of Tranche 2. Maybe they will even slip them into T3.

[Feanor]

It's no news that the No.6 squadron won't stand up in 2009 as originally planned, but in 2011 now due to the Saudi deal. The Saudis will get a first batch of 24 Typhoons (6 twin seaters) which are diverted from RAF Tranche 2 production slots to ensure delivery on schedule starting in 2009. These missing aircraft will be later produced meaning they will be added to the and of Tranche 2. Maybe they will even slip them into T3.

Talk about setting priorities :rolleyes: What do the Saudi's think about getting the Tranche 2 instead of Tranche 3? Why not wait and get the better plane on a more prepared production line?

[ASFC]

They are setting their priorities-the 24 Tornado ADV (aka F.3) they own will be orphans in 2010 when the RAF retire theirs, so the Saudis are getting their first Typhoon Squadron going as soon as possible to replace them.

No.6 Sqn were supposed to stand up this year at Leuchars-but they haven't yet.

[2S1]

They are setting their priorities-the 24 Tornado ADV (aka F.3) they own will be orphans in 2010 when the RAF retire theirs, so the Saudis are getting their first Typhoon Squadron going as soon as possible to replace them.

No.6 Sqn were supposed to stand up this year at Leuchars-but they haven't yet.

Saudi has already retired their ADV's with their sole squadron standing down last year. One of them is now a Museum exhibit in Riyadh, another is earmarked for possible 'gate-guard' duties.

BAE are overhauling the remaining 20+ ex-RSAF ADVs which were taken back by the supplier as part of the Al Sallam Typhoon deal. What will happen to them is anyone's guess.

[ASFC]

Really? All internet sources I have seen suggest that 29 Sqn RSAF still uses them.

I suppose that means the need to get the Typhoons up and running is even more pressing.

[2S1]

Really? All internet sources I have seen suggest that 29 Sqn RSAF still uses them.

I suppose that means the need to get the Typhoons up and running is even more pressing.

I can say with certainty that Tabuk's 29 Squadron has now stood down.

There are few up-to-date sources on the internet in concerns RSAF; Scramble for instance still lists their F-5E/F squadrons as active despite actually being deactivated several years ago.

Typhoon's acceptance programme continues. RAF Typhoon's recently deployed to Dhahran to undergo a series of 'hot-and-high' trials which RSAF requested.

[Mike_NZ]

Does anyone know which countries are considering the Typhoon as a possible candidate currently? I know Saudi Arabia and Austria are the only buyers outside the 4 country consortium, but are there likely to be others?

[Grand Danois]

UK bid to offload Eurofighter jets it cannot afford

By Stephen Fidler, Sylvia Pfeifer and Alex Barker in,London

Published: August 20 2008 03:00 | Last updated: August 20 2008 03:00

The UK has held talks with other countries, including Japan, about offloading large numbers of Eurofighter Typhoons that the Ministry of Defence has ordered but can no longer afford.

The discussions, which are at an early stage, underline the size of the cash crisis facing the ministry, which has been grappling with an estimated budget deficit of £2bn ($3.7bn).

The Royal Air Force, which had ordered 144Eurofighters, is committed to buying another 88 of the aircraft as part of its membership of the four-nation Eurofighter consortium, which includes Germany, Italy and Spain.

The UK would face severe financial penalties if it decided to cancel or cut this number and has started to sound out potential buyers for all or part of its order.

Defence officials have confirmed that Japan, Saudi Arabia and India are among countries that have expressed interest in buying the aircraft.

Japan's interest will surprise many in the industry as the country has historically tended to buy from US manufacturers. India, which has traditionally bought Russian fighters, has made no secret of its ambition to expand its indigenous defence capabilities and is evaluating bids from five parties, including Eurofighter, for a multi-role combat aircraft.

India's tender would potentially be a lucrative order for the Eurofighter consortium.

For the UK to divert aircraft intended for the RAF to India would need approval from consortium partners. The transfer of sensitive military technology is likely to be a potential hurdle.

The Saudi Royal Air Force has 72 Typhoons on order from the UK government under an agreement signed last September, to be built by BAE Systems, the UK's largest arms contractor.

Separately, Riyadh had begun negotiations with the UK to buy 48-72 additional Typhoons, a source close to the Saudi government confirmed.

Any agreement on offloading the RAF Eurofighters is unlikely to be reached before next year.

The ministry said: "We would not comment on government-to-government discussions, even to confirm that such discussions are taking place."

The four nations in the Eurofighter consortium are negotiating over whether each must buy the same number of aircraft from the group as originally agreed.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6ffbe39a-6e50-11dd-b5df-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

Posting it here as reference.

[Scorpion82]

Eurofighter is currently marketed in the following countries:
- Swiss
- Romania
- Greece
- Bulgaria
- India
- Japan
- Brazil

I additions the Oman has shown an interest in the aircraft with discussions under way. Chile has informed itself about the aircraft as well. Turkey is unlikely though often still listed.

Regarding the article above.
Saudi Arabia will assemble its own aircraft starting with the second batch. It is unlikely that the UK can offload its aircraft. Let alone the tight contracts which don't allow a one sidened reduction without penalties being paid. Ironically it were the brits who initiated this contract system to prevent partners like Germany from withdrawing.

[Mike_NZ]

Wow, didn't know there were so many. Japan is a real surprise there. Any idea of how many they are after for their tender?

[Scorpion82]

Wow, didn't know there were so many. Japan is a real surprise there. Any idea of how many they are after for their tender?

80-100. Japan intends to replace its F-4EJ Kai fleet and contenders include the F-15FX, F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Typhoon. The JASDF prefers the F-22 which is not for sale right now and Lockheed Martin trys to bring in the F-35 instead.

[Mike_NZ]

Man, just read the article in Flight International Mag, and the 15 Typhoons for Austria will be capped to Tranche 1 block 8 level. Such a shame, no PIRATE or DASS, just chaff and flares. Apparently the reason is that it's currently a nightmare trying to source all the sophisticated parts and integrate them to work for Austria. Wonder if the Saudis will experience the same problems.

[Satorian]

Apparently the reason is that it's currently a nightmare trying to source all the sophisticated parts and integrate them to work for Austria. Wonder if the Saudis will experience the same problems.

I think Austria deleted them from their spec to "save" money. The whole deal is a political minefield in Austria and the MoD there hasn't exactly done his country a great service with his cuts that barely save money, yet capped the Austrian Typhoon's performance considerably.

[swerve]

80-100. Japan intends to replace its F-4EJ Kai fleet and contenders include the F-15FX, F/A-18E/F and Eurofighter Typhoon. The JASDF prefers the F-22 which is not for sale right now and Lockheed Martin trys to bring in the F-35 instead.
The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

[Scorpion82]

The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

I know. But I wouldn't be surprised if Japan accepts the hole due pressure from the US.

[Grand Danois]

OK, if the EF is up for the Japanese I'd imagine they'd want the EFs raw performance plus sensors and range. This tells me that a Japanese EF would be likely be featuring an AESA, Meteor and CFTs.

But wrt the CFTs, why not do what the Swedes are doing to the Gripen? Increase the internal fuel volume? Compared to CFTs it should mean less drag, less compromise on g-loading in combat, perhaps less weight, easier maintenance. Do away with the centreline tank and delete it as a wetpoint.

How does that sound?

[Scorpion82]

OK, if the EF is up for the Japanese I'd imagine they'd want the EFs raw performance plus sensors and range. This tells me that a Japanese EF would be likely be featuring an AESA, Meteor and CFTs.

But wrt the CFTs, why not do what the Swedes are doing to the Gripen? Increase the internal fuel volume? Compared to CFTs it should mean less drag, less compromise on g-loading in combat, perhaps less weight, easier maintenance. Do away with the centreline tank and delete it as a wetpoint.

How does that sound?

And where to put the LDP then? Such a redesign was probabley easier for the Gripen than it is for the Typhoon. CFTs don't neccessarily change the g-loading at all, though that remains open in the end. One advantage of the CFTs is that you can remove them if not required, more maintainance intensive maybe, but also more flexible. There is ever a downside.

[Grand Danois]

And where to put the LDP then? Such a redesign was probabley easier for the Gripen than it is for the Typhoon. CFTs don't neccessarily change the g-loading at all, though that remains open in the end. One advantage of the CFTs is that you can remove them if not required, more maintainance intensive maybe, but also more flexible. There is ever a downside.

The LDP goes on the centreline, which is just no longer a wetpoint. Less weight & complexity.

IIRC the centreline holds 1000L - if you don't use it and add 4000 lbs of internal fuel instead? it should take it above 40% increase. Less drag and less structural weight per lbs of fuel?

Feasible?

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The LDP goes on the centreline, which is just no longer a wetpoint. Less weight & complexity.

IIRC the centreline holds 1000L - if you don't use it and add 4000 lbs of internal fuel instead? it should take it above 40% increase. Less drag and less structural weight per lbs of fuel?

Feasible?

CFT's will cost a put load less to develop than to re-design the internal layout of the airframe, the risk will also be significantly less. In short you get the same/comparable effect with only a slight decrease in drag performance for a fraction of the cost or risk. I'd be heading down the CFT path if it was up to me. All the Viper users seem happy with them + you could probably install them on earlier models & you can take them off whenever you want.

Any Japanese buy would be full tranche 2 standard with CAESAR one would think.

The F-35 has a major delivery date problem. If Japan waits for F-35, it will end up retiring all the F-4s before the first replacement is delivered.

Yeah the Japanese are having the same problem with their F-4 fleet as the RAAF has with the PiG (F-111). The F-35 delivery date is simply too late for our 60's vintage kit.

A likely outcome will be the Typhoon/F-15 BII replacing the F-4 fleet and the F-35 replacing the current F-15 fleet. Not a shabby ORBAT if you ask me.

On a slightly OT note does anyone know if the JASDF is looking at replacing its E-2C fleet with E-2D's?

[Grand Danois]

Any Japanese buy would be full tranche 2 standard with CAESAR one would think.

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

[Scorpion82]

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

The Gripens internal fuel load is quite small just ~40% or so of what the Typhoon can hold. The Gripens design is different and it was/is more easier to move the maingear position than it is for the Typhoon.

[tphuang]

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.

I'm pondering then what made the Swedes go with an increased internal fuel fraction on the Gripen NG. Was it because it had a lower fraction to begin with or could it be that the Gripen was too small to fit CFTs to?

the J/APG-1 on F-2 is not that great. Just having the property of being an AESA radar does not make it better. The Japanese have the technology but not necessarily the experience at making really advanced airborne radar. I'd go with CAESAR.

[swerve]

I'm more inclined to think it'd be a Japanese AESA.
As tphuang says, Japans first try at an AESA fighter radar wasn't a great success. Nothing wrong with the T/R modules, AFAIK, though they're old technology now, same generation as those on the APG-63(v)2, I think. I'm not sure what caused the deficiencies of the J/APG-1 - software? Hardware other than the TRMs?

Japan is working on a new AESA fighter radar - scroll down to "Multi-Function RF Sensor" on this page (http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.173/pub_detail.asp) as well as shipborne & land-based AESA radars. MELCO has bought Thales technology for the FCS-3 shipborne fire control radar, & it's possible that MELCO & Thales might co-operate on the new fighter radar.

[elmanelary]

Could any one here tell me about eurofighter typhoon and the budget of germany on it?

[kato]

Wonder if this one will be closed too...

Anyway: 21,705 million euro.

Not including 1,613 million euro currently budgeted for the weapons (IRIS-T, Meteor, Taurus).

[swerve]

Wonder if this one will be closed too....
Probably. Elmanelary, can you explain why your posting style is exactly the same as that of elmoktaeb, & your IP & host addresses are almost the same? If they were exactly the same, you'd already be permanently banned, as registering with multiple IDs brings an immediate permanent ban - but for the moment, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

One more pointless thread (there is already a Eurofighter thread, & this question should have been posted there), or a failure to give a prompt answer to my question, & you will be banned.

In the meantime, I'm merging this thread with the Eurofighter one.

[Mike_NZ]

Hi everyone, does anyone have info on what the ammo capacity is for the Typhoon's 27mm Mauser cannon? I've read that in the recent Green flag it carried 55 armour piercing rounds for strafing purposes. but is this the max?

[Scorpion82]

The max load is 150 rounds. There is mostly no need to carry the full possible load.

[2S1]

Just some more news on the Saudi order.

Eurofighter has very recently completed a series of 'hot and high' tests at Dhahran and Al Kharj. From all accounts I have heard so far, they went pretty successfully.

Amazingly however, one thing I have heard today is that the grease lubricant the RAF use on their Typhoon's doesn't perform too well at high tempratures. More than signifcant amounts had to be applied to moving-parts across the airframe and then scrubbed off after flight.

Considering the RAF's operating mandate in Iraq and Afghanistan, I find this perplexing.

In the meantime, I hear its likely Oman will also commit to an order with RAFO aiming for 12-to-24 Typhoons circa 2012. BAE may commit to a Jaguar buy-back as part of the deal.

[swerve]

In the meantime, I hear its likely Oman will also commit to an order with RAFO aiming for 12-to-24 Typhoons circa 2012. BAE may commit to a Jaguar buy-back as part of the deal.
One wonders what use BAe may find for the Jaguars. Parts breakdown for remaining users?

[2S1]

One wonders what use BAe may find for the Jaguars. Parts breakdown for remaining users?

BAE Systems is under the direction of the MoD, it will be a G2G deal between Governments. BAE will scramble for best of deals. Hard currency at the moment will not be in their favour.

Thus, the same thing they're doing buying back the Saudi Tornado ADVs?

Low airframe hours, plentiful spares and first access to a long-term maintenance contract.

India still produces the Jaguar right? Ecuador, also a Jag user wants planes??

[Mike_NZ]

Hi guys, got some info off the Aug Ed. of Aircraft Illustrated mag on the upgrade program for the eurofighter:

Currently Eurofighter is at Block 5 standard, which is the best Tranche 1 aircraft. They can do all the A2A roles, using the AIM-9L, ASRAAM, AMRAAM, IRIS-T, as well as an "austere" A2G role, using Paveway II, Enhanced paveway II and GBU 10 and 16.

Tranche 2 aircraft will start out at block 8 standard, and these initially will only have A2A capabilities. The "austere" A2G role of the late block 5 aircraft wasn't initially planned but was born out of necessity: the Typhoons had to have this ability to be useful in Afganistan and other theatres.

In 2012 the P1E (Phase 1 Enhancement) will kick in adding A2G, communications upgrades, Paveway IV, EGBU-16, Laser designation pod upgrades and Man-Machine-Interface upgrades to the Tranche 2 aircraft.

P2E will bring about initial Stormshadow standoff missile capabilities as well as JDAM

Block 10 (or EOC-1 meaning Enhanced Operational Capability 1) will upgrade Tranche 2 aircraft to full DASS systems, AMRAAMC-5 and Paveway III

Block 15 (EOC-2) will add Meteor, upgraded capabilities with Stormshadow as well as reconnaissance capabilities for the Tranche 2 aircraft.

Tranche 3???
If these do eventuate, they will really be something to behold. Block 20/25 aircraft could get conformal fuel tanks, CAESAR/AMSAR radar upgrade and possibly the EJ230 eurojet upgrade with increased thrust as well as 3D TVC.

[Mike_NZ]

Got a question about the A2A load outs of the Typhoon.

Q: many sources quote ability to carry 6 MRAAMs and 4 MRAAMs, but is that the max? Can it carry 8 MRAAMs? (ie 4 conformal and 4 underwing) or is there only 2 underwing hardpoints that are 'wired' for MRAAMs?

[Scorpion82]

Got a question about the A2A load outs of the Typhoon.

Q: many sources quote ability to carry 6 MRAAMs and 4 MRAAMs, but is that the max? Can it carry 8 MRAAMs? (ie 4 conformal and 4 underwing) or is there only 2 underwing hardpoints that are 'wired' for MRAAMs?

I'm not sure if the inner wing hardpoints are actually wired for MRAAMs, but it also depends on the FCS programming. Currently the Typhoon is cleared for a maximum of 6 MRAAMs and 4 SRAAMs, with a total of 8 AAMs (2 SRAAMs & 6 MRAAMs or 4 SRAAMs and 4 MRAAMs). If the need would arise the inner wing points could hold MRAAMs as well and there exists the option to use twin rail launchers. This could theoretically increase the maximum number of AAMs to 12 (up to 6 SRAAMs and up to 8 MRAAMs in the different configurations).

[DarkDuke]

Why I've never seen Eurofighter to do post-stall maneuver? all performance Eurofighter did in airshow were seemingly mediocre.

[Scorpion82]

Why I've never seen Eurofighter to do post-stall maneuver? all performance Eurofighter did in airshow were seemingly mediocre.

Poststall requires thrust vector controls and the Eurofighter don't have thrust vector controls.

[Mike_NZ]

I'm not sure if the inner wing hardpoints are actually wired for MRAAMs, but it also depends on the FCS programming. Currently the Typhoon is cleared for a maximum of 6 MRAAMs and 4 SRAAMs, with a total of 8 AAMs (2 SRAAMs & 6 MRAAMs or 4 SRAAMs and 4 MRAAMs). If the need would arise the inner wing points could hold MRAAMs as well and there exists the option to use twin rail launchers. This could theoretically increase the maximum number of AAMs to 12 (up to 6 SRAAMs and up to 8 MRAAMs in the different configurations).

Cool, thanks for that. Has there been plans to bring these twin rail launchers into T2? Or is it more of the "possibility" in the T3?

[Scorpion82]

Cool, thanks for that. Has there been plans to bring these twin rail launchers into T2? Or is it more of the "possibility" in the T3?

Well they could be even adopted for T1 aircraft, but given the fact that there is no need to carry more than 8 AAMs, given the low to non existent AA threat in most current and foreseeable scenarios I think we won't see them at all.

[METEORSWARM]

photos 1 Efa tranche 2 Saudi

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2397

IRIS-T analog/digital lock-on air

http://rapidshare.de/files/40835709/lock-on__2_IRIS-T.png.html


Rail launchers

http://rapidshare.de/files/40835731/RAIL_LAUNCHERS2.png.html


IRIS-T

YouTube - Dassault Aviation - IRIS-T missiles


Riat 2007

YouTube - RIAT 2007 RAF Fairford F15 F16 Typhoon

eurojet 200

http://www.flugrevue.de/index.php?id=2526

MBDA Brinstone

YouTube - MBDA BRINSTONE

MBDA Taurus kpe 350

YouTube - MBDA TAURUS KEPD 350

MBDA STORM SHADOW /Scalp stealth

YouTube - MBDA STORM SHADOW

MBDA METEOR

YouTube - MBDA METEOR

[stigmata]

Well they could be even adopted for T1 aircraft, but given the fact that there is no need to carry more than 8 AAMs, given the low to non existent AA threat in most current and foreseeable scenarios I think we won't see them at all.The primary reason for carrying large numbers of AAM is to shoot down large numbers of cruise missiles

[METEORSWARM]

News

IRST (typhoon) 100km


http://rapidshare.de/files/40935538/pirate_irst__1_.pdf.html

[simdude97]

News

IRST (typhoon) 100km


http://rapidshare.de/files/40935538/pirate_irst__1_.pdf.html

Whatever are you talking about? After downloading the paper from not so rapid share I read it to say PIRATE has the claimed capability of long range (up to 100 km) detection and

The quantitative figures for various performance parameters are not available in the published literature

So IRST (typhoon)100km is meaningless, unsubstantiated Admin Text deleted. Read the Forum Rules re engagement. There are other ways to get the message across

[Aussie Digger]

News

IRST (typhoon) 100km


http://rapidshare.de/files/40935538/pirate_irst__1_.pdf.html

And? Show me the IR guided weapon that can fly that far, let alone acquire a target at that range...

[karan583]

And? Show me the IR guided weapon that can fly that far, let alone acquire a target at that range...
Why not let one EF send the target information to another EF closer to the target? Rafale demonstrated something similar to this, reported in AW&ST. It doesn't say that an IRST was used to acquire target position, however "the shot was most likely carried out using an imaging-infrared guided Mica IR".

Ares Defense Technology Blog (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3aaff30e90-45c7-44e2-a656-a6e1b9ad3882&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending)

Sharing information across the battle field is essential and this sounds like just another way to do it.

[METEORSWARM]

The irst is a passive system does not alert the enemy.
More heat from the reactors of the plane, the plane is detected better.
You do not need radar to fire a missile.
Irst = location, distance, fired missile
Irst 100km = Bvraam missiles
In good weather conditions.

F-15 to 90km and Mig-29 jet nozzles teaching 160km.

Example = IRST(100km) +Meteor (100km +) in 2 years.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

And? Show me the IR guided weapon that can fly that far, let alone acquire a target at that range...

Actually mate MICA may be able to eek out that much range performance, if the shooter was up hill and flying fast. I know the Russians have deployed R-27 derivatives with IR seekers, including the ER long burn variant with a stated maximum range of 70 odd nautical miles. JDRAAM should have a duel IIR/AESA seeker and a maximum range in excess of the '120D.

In any case i doubt any of those weapons systems will find their way onto a typhoon.

IRST (typhoon) 100km

PIRATE's range vs what? aggregate range numbers mean nothing without knowing target characteristics. Even the AIM-9A/B could lock on to a target several million kilometers away, if it is bright enough. Was the target on burners? What aspect? How big was it? What are the atmospheric conditions? Nice concise range numbers are usually useless in operational circumstances because there are so many variables to consider.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The irst is a passive system does not alert the enemy.
More heat from the reactors of the plane, the plane is detected better.
You do not need radar to fire a missile.
Irst = location, distance, fired missile
Irst 100km = Bvraam missiles
In good weather conditions.

F-15 to 90km and Mig-29 jet nozzles teaching 160km.

Example = IRST(100km) +Meteor (100km +) in 2 years.

Actually IRST's dont give range data, thats why they usually have a laser range finder which is not passive (can be detected) and is rather limited in range. A range finder that can be efective at that range vs an aircraft is a currently beyond contemporary capability AFAIK.

By the way the only aircraft that had a reactor that I'm aware of was a Russian attempt at a nuclear powered strategic bomber, and it only flew once AFAIK. Contemporary fighters use Jet engine technology.