Singapore ‘leases’ IAF base for 5 yrs

[funtz]

Singapore ‘leases’ IAF base for 5 yrs
Josy Joseph
Wednesday, October 10, 2007 08:49 IST

NEW DELHI: India on Tuesday signed an agreement with Singapore which will allow the island nation’s air force personnel to train at the Indian Air Force base in Kalaikunda, West Bengal, for the next five years.

Singapore is one of the world’s smallest countries, with its 704 square km territory scattered across 60 islands. The country’s location affords it a great geo-strategic significance. But to take advantage of that, Singapore needs a well-trained military. And India is expected to play a crucial part in fulfilling that demand.
According to Tuesday’s agreement, Singapore Air Force fighters will train at the IAF base at notified times.

Although Singapore has already carried out such training missions in India, New Delhi has never ‘leased’ out its military installations to foreign countries on a long-term basis.

A brief government statement announcing the agreement did not mention the terms of payment.

Defence officials said a deal to train the Singapore Army in select Indian Army bases is being considered.

The agreement to lease Kalaikunda was signed by India’s defence secretary, Vijay Singh, and Singapore’s permanent secretary of defence Chiang Chie Foo. Chiang is leading a delegation to India for the fourth ‘India-Singapore Defence Policy Dialogue’.

“During the dialogue, both sides expressed the need to intensify cooperation,” the statement said. “The regional security aspect, from Indian and Singaporean perspectives, were discussed.”

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1126618

great news the AF's of both nations can learn a lot from each other, if some one knows more about this kindly inform me,

What combat aircrafts from Singapore Air Force, might take part in this.

And for some ex Air Force men who might be here, when two Air Forces engage in a mutual training base there will be obvious differeces in the way the two operate, how do you manage to resolve those differences.

If you have a online reference explaining this kindly share it with me.

[sidewinder2006]

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1126618

great news the AF's of both nations can learn a lot from each other, if some one knows more about this kindly inform me,

What combat aircrafts from Singapore Air Force, might take part in this.

And for some ex Air Force men who might be here, when two Air Forces engage in a mutual training base there will be obvious differeces in the way the two operate, how do you manage to resolve those differences.

If you have a online reference explaining this kindly share it with me.

It is quite obvious that the F16s will be here..unless US throws opposition to that. In that scenario it will be a very good experience for IAF also. They get to familiarize with the F16s to some extent.

On the other hand Special troop operations might be on the agenda also !

[AGRA]

The base might be for Singapore's new advanced training capability? They are currently in France with Skyhawks and are up for replacement. The F-16s in the US are used for converting onto the F-16 in coop with USAF, something that couldn't be done in India (no USAF F-16 presence).

[funtz]

well considering that, even though India and Singapore have had very good relations (now that i think about it, singapore never had bad relations with anybody), what do they stand to gain, i mean ok,

- The base is closer to home, than USA or Europe.

_ When ever required they can fly to Pokharan firing range and practice dropping live ammunition,
its not like that is a problem, after 5-6 nuclear tests nothing lives even near that place. They can fire away all they want.

- The place will be cheap as hell, when compared to other options they might have had.

- If need be they have a wide array of aircrafts to train with/against, mig 21(bis/bison), mig 27, sepecat jaguar, mirage, SU-30.
So red air - blue air, if IAF and RSAF decide to go for it, will actually consist of original aircrafts, instead of some aircrafts mimicking opposition aircrafts. Now that IAF has had experience of western AF's this might be an option.

- No possible political problems.

- There is Goa to go to, 2hrs by flight, 1.5 day by train, beer is cold, food is hot, international crowd of drunks and stoner's.

What else could you imagine.

This is the good thing about being on a discussion forum, i never new the history of the AF and the Kalaikunda airbase, it was apparently made for the Royal Indian Air Force.


Kalaikunda, India, is situated 130 kilometers west of Calcutta in the District of Midnapore of West Bengal. During World War Two, Kalaikunda was just a village located very close to a very strategic railway junction and workshop at Kharagpur, With the expansion of airfield construction in India during the war, the open area of Kalaikunda was selected by the Allies to become airstrip.

The concrete runway was constructed in a north-south direction; together with corresponding taxi tracks, (pops and various dispersals. Aircraft to use the base were mainly the transport aircraft of the USAAF engaged in operations over the Hump d B-295 on bombing missions to other parts of Asia
The 20th Bomber Command under the command of Gen. Henry Hap" Arnold (later Gen. Curtis E. LeMay) set up its base at Kalaikunda and" was resident from 13 April 1944 until 4 May 1945, when it departed to Tinian in the Marianas (stands. Its subordinate, the 468th Bomb Group operated out of Kalaikunda with four squadrons of B-29s (792nd, 793rd, 794th and 795th). All the bomber bases in this part of India gad been constructed with runways that were designed for B-24 operations. This meant that runway length had to be increased from 6000 to 7200 feet in time for the first B-29 Superfortress arrival in April 1944. Attacks were flown as far south as Kuala Lumpur, Singapore and the oil fields of Borneo, Harbors and rivers along the coast of Indochina were mined and bombing missions were completed on Burma, Thailand and southern China.

Source: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200005/ai_n8891870

Never new before this moment that the airbase had such a long history.

[su-30mki]

I dont think india's gonna have any problems with that.Besides u get to train with f-18's everyday.Look at the singaporean air inventory
link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force

And they in turn get to tain with some of the worlds most advanced aircraft in the indian airforce!!!
Good Deal for both.

Moderator comment:

Please stop using old-style texting language, e.g. "u" for "you". You've been reminded about this several times already. An attempt at appropriate use of capital letters would also be appreciated.

PJI

[funtz]

i dont remember f18s with RSAF.
How ever this base might be the one IAF base to have seen more Aircrafts than anyone else in the history of IAF/RIAF(Royal Indian Air force)

I will ask a few and inform you if thats true.

The exact details of this deal will have to be delivered by the Defense Minister to the parliament when ever there is a session, we might end up knowing every thing about this,

- The type of aircrafts,

- The amount of mutual training or will the RSAF will train in isolation,

- Will the RSAF be extended the use of Pokharan firing range to carry out live bombing, as they alreaddy have done this once or twice.

- How much amount the deal is for and in what way will the amount be paid (those bundles of dollars we love so much and have so little of or industrial - economic blah blah etc. etc.).

So keep your eyes glued, as soon as it is announced the first website will be

http://pib.nic.in

The press information bureau of Indian government.
and be patient with the website sometimes it is not functioning due to over enthusiastic India haters :(

[swerve]

I dont think india's gonna have any problems with that.Besides u get to train with f-18's everyday.Look at the singaporean air inventory
link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force

And they in turn get to tain with some of the worlds most advanced aircraft in the indian airforce!!!
Good Deal for both.

No F-18s in that list. Which is entirely correct, because Singapore doesn't have any. It has F-16.

[rabirizvi]

No F-18s in that list. Which is entirely correct, because Singapore doesn't have any. It has F-16.

but Swerve, dont you feel its odd to base your fighter jets on a base with no support & mintanence structure for that particular aircraft. they dont have the support infrastructure for the said jet in whole of india (unless that is india gets f-16s for itself). Operating F-16s by singapore in india might get very expensive if they build their own support & maintanence structure right from the scratch.would like if you can shed some light on it.

[swerve]

but Swerve, dont you feel its odd to base your fighter jets on a base with no support & mintanence structure for that particular aircraft. they dont have the support infrastructure for the said jet in whole of india (unless that is india gets f-16s for itself). Operating F-16s by singapore in india might get very expensive if they build their own support & maintanence structure right from the scratch.would like if you can shed some light on it.

Err - why me? All I did was point out an error in another post.

Singapore currently has A-4s based in France (Cazaux) for training. That doesn't seem to be a problem. Why not F-16s in India? Closer, for a start. The purpose is to get away from the very limited & crowded (with commercial flights) airspace of Singapore, for less restricted training.

[funtz]

That sure is one thing we got plenty of, airspace.

Plus they can get access to the training of IAF, Singapore has previously used Indian Airforce weapon testing range for live bombing missions, and trained with every aircraft in the IAF.


Central Chronicle, 12 October 2004
IAF, Singapore air force begin joint exercises
NEW DELHI: Six F-16 fighters of the Singapore Air Force today commenced joint exercises with the Indian Air Force allowing the IAF an opportunity to practice war manoeuvres along with the F-16s for the first time. The two air forces will for the first time conduct the 'Ankush' defensive offensive air exercises till October 27 in the skies over Gwalior, Kalaikunda (West Bengal) and Pokhran (Rajasthan) in which the IAF has decided to pitch in all aircraft in its inventory -- save the MiG-25s.

Source: http://www.ipcs.org/Oct_04_militaryAirforc.pdf

The first reports started to come out in the media About RSAF coming to India and leasing the base after that exercise, it is not asif this thing happened in a day.

The Telegraph, 10th November 2005
Singapore seeks airbase on hire (Sujan Dutta)
New Delhi, Nov 9: The Kalaikunda air force station is for hire. Singapore's air force has asked for use of its facilities and is negotiating a price with the indian government.

source: http://www.ipcs.org/

IF they are really looking in terms of long term cooperation (and five years seems a long time), it might not be that much.

Any one with AF experience mind telling us how much these things cost, it might be cheaper than going all the way to France/USA.

As AGRA said:

The base might be for Singapore's new advanced training capability? They are currently in France with Skyhawks and are up for replacement. The F-16s in the US are used for converting onto the F-16 in coop with USAF, something that couldn't be done in India (no USAF F-16 presence).


And these things are not happening in isolation.

India to train Singapore armed forces
9 Oct 2007, 0221 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN
NEW DELHI:
Under the bilateral agreement, approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Singapore will keep some of its military equipment in India on a permanent basis now.
"Singapore simply does not have the space for its armed forces to engage in large-scale exercises. Though its armed forces have been coming here for exercises under a 2003 defence cooperation pact, this will be the first time such a detailed long-term agreement will be signed,"said an official.
"Apart from paying for the access to our training facilities, Singapore will also consider investments to upgrade them. We, in return, will get access to their state-of-the-art weaponry," said the official.

Although i disagree with Mr. Rajat Pandits views, "India to train Singapore armed forces", when two military forces train together it is not wise to call it as one training the other, it is the mutual benefit they get that matters.


India, Singapore to hold joint artillery exercise in October
11 Oct 2007, 0756 hrs IST,ANI
NEW DELHI: Artillery Forces of India and Singapore will participate in a joint exercise near Nasik in Maharashtra, later this month.
The Singapore Army will be represented by an over 100-member contingent, according to a release issued by the Defence Ministry.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_Singapore_to_hold_joint_artillery_exercise_i n_October/articleshow/2447891.cms

Singapore Navy regularly trains with Indian Navy. This naval exercise seems to have blended in with the Indo-US training, the Malabar joint exercise, as the Malabar-07 included the singapore navy.


The two countries signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in 2005, outlining detailed modalities for the first army-to-army exercises. In order to intensify cooperation in the defence technology sector, an inaugural meeting of Defence Technology Steering Committee, led by Singapore’s Deputy Secretary for Technology and Transformation, Quek Tong Boon and the Chief Controller (Research and Development Wing) of India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), A Sivathanu Pillai, was held in Singapore in October 2006.

http://www.ipcs.org/IPCS-Special-Report-41.pdf

So the AF as can be clearly seen from the above, is a part of the bigger picture, overall military cooperation, supplemented or rather driven by common objectives in more important areas (economic, diplomatic) is the reason.

[rabirizvi]

Err - why me? All I did was point out an error in another post.

Singapore currently has A-4s based in France (Cazaux) for training. That doesn't seem to be a problem. Why not F-16s in India? Closer, for a start. The purpose is to get away from the very limited & crowded (with commercial flights) airspace of Singapore, for less restricted training.

I am sorry if you misunderstood my intention. I thought maybe you have more info on the topic so directed my query towards you. thanks for the reply though. i have no worries with f-16s in india, i just thought maybe it would make more sense if they wouldve had leased airbase of a country with the support & mintanence already in place for the aircraft.

[swerve]

I am sorry if you misunderstood my intention. I thought maybe you have more info on the topic so directed my query towards you. thanks for the reply though. i have no worries with f-16s in india, i just thought maybe it would make more sense if they wouldve had leased airbase of a country with the support & mintanence already in place for the aircraft.

I think the question there is "Which country"? There are matters of political acceptability, security, & so on to be considered.

[nevidimka]

Perhaps the main reason that drove singapore to this agreement is to get a traning experiance against the su30 mki. This would make them very familiar with Malaysia's su30 mkm, as both aircraft are nearly identical.
So they would have the advantage of learning the aircrafts capability, while Malaysia would still be in the dark about the F15.

[funtz]

They could start all the joint training exercises they wished, after all India-Singapore military relationship is the most uncontroversial around here in India, that will not justify the need Singapore to have its military equipment in India and to sign such a elaborate defense agreement covering every thing from the Army-Navy-Air force and research.

quoting
Times News Network.
9 Oct 2007, 0221 hrs IST,Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI:
Singapore will keep some of its military equipment in India on a permanent basis now.

[paskal]

Perhaps the main reason that drove singapore to this agreement is to get a traning experiance against the su30 mki. This would make them very familiar with Malaysia's su30 mkm, as both aircraft are nearly identical.
So they would have the advantage of learning the aircrafts capability, while Malaysia would still be in the dark about the F15.

personally i dont think malaysia will care to much.....
su-30 mki and mkm is quite different.
its avionics its helmet and a lot more is different:p:
about malaysia being in the dark with the f-15 youre wrong...
malasyia has been training with america for quite a long time.
they have been training wit f-14,f-15,f-16,f-18 and even with the RAF forces.

[nevidimka]

paskal, whats is your source, on the training with American fighters?

and, btw.. the su 30 mki and mkm is very much identicaL, in many ways, radar, range of detection, weapons, manouvrebility etc. If you wanna learn about the mkm, the closest you can get is learning the mki.

[paskal]

paskal, whats is your source, on the training with American fighters?

and, btw.. the su 30 mki and mkm is very much identicaL, in many ways, radar, range of detection, weapons, manouvrebility etc. If you wanna learn about the mkm, the closest you can get is learning the mki.

http://http://www.usafa.af.mil/df/inss/OCP/ocp16.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Malaysian_Air_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Malaysian_Air_Force

bla,bla,bla......:nutkick
theres many more!
malaysian special air force unit the paskau train with american air force:D
american forces always come to malaysia to train in malaysia jungle.....
THey always do CARAT missions with the MAF forces.
The malaysian special navy unit the PASKAL always train with the US navy seals.
ITS not only the US the ausies ,singapore and the indian air force also train with malaysia air force commonly.[most situated at butterworth air base for joint tarining exercise]

The only reason why this is kept low because of politics.:D


PEACE:D

[MJM1957]

Singapore combat aircraft:

140 Squadron at Tengah with F-16C/D Fighting Falcon for AD/Attack/Maritime Attack/Continuation Training

141 Squadron at Paya Lebar with F-5S Tiger II/RF-5S Tigereye for AD/Attack/Reconnaissance/Continuation Training

143 Squadron at Tengah with F-16C/D Fighting Falcon for AD/Attack/
Continuation Training

144 Squadron at Paya Lebar with F-5S Tiger II for AD/Attack/
Continuation Training

145 Squadron at Changi East with F-16D Fighting Falcon for Multirole

149 Squadron at Paya Lebar with F-5S/T Tiger II for Air Defence/Continuation Training

150 Squadron at Cazaux, France with A-4SU/TA-4SU Skyhawk for
Lead-in Fighter Training

120 Squadron at Sembawang with AH-64D Apache for Attack


12 x F-15SGs on order

[Viper7]

paskal, whats is your source, on the training with American fighters?

and, btw.. the su 30 mki and mkm is very much identicaL, in many ways, radar, range of detection, weapons, manouvrebility etc. If you wanna learn about the mkm, the closest you can get is learning the mki.

Touche'

Well thats not really problem for Malaysia. Within 2 years we will be recieving our Block-52s, there could definately be certain excersizes in the foreseeable future between Pakistan Air Force and Malaysian Air Force. Where PAF would have a chance to gauge the closest version there is to the indian Flanker, as Malaysians are known to have incorporated western avionics in their Flankers. And the same would go well for the Malaysians, as they too would have a chance to pit their fighters against the capability of PAF's Block-52 Vipers. Which I might add, would be the closest thing to what the Singapore Air Force has.

[metro]

As it has been noted, there are the ever preset political "[blurry] colored lines" involved here. However, sorta like a traffic light, it seems like it's almost always red, briefly yellow, and never green (traffic jam anybody?); so as a "workaround," I'll hit the gas when I see the "yellow light/line" and try to avoid/miss/blur the imminent "red light/line."
I'm not an "expert" either (emphasis)! If anyone knows where one can get the "expert" degree, please let me know... how one attains this award is seemingly the best kept secret in the world.

Now through the blurry lines.
Singapore, as noted is a relatively small country which, restricts AF training. India's IAF ("INAF") has a relatively large country, making AF training a lot less confining.
Israel's IAF ("ISAF") has a relatively, minute country which, makes always needed and constant AF training, difficult and frankly dangerous (due to congestion and other matters).

The ISAF has a very large (per-capita) number of F-16s and a lot of experience with them--flying and maintaining. They also have a lot of experience with other aircraft, including the su's. Again, the problem is "space," and there are those "lines" everywhere. However, Israel, India, and Singapore, have found common ground in many areas--so much so, mutual interests ("intelligence") have blurred many of the "red lines."

In "theory," one could see (actually can already see) the benefits to all three countries (among others). Singapore and Israel (having a little bit "low profile aircraft"), bring a large number of similar F-16's (and/or other planes) and people trained to maintain the aircraft and/or other people to share training methods "on the ground," to India. India, not only provides some very needed "open" airspace to train in and the different aircraft/pilot knowledge, each AF will gain from each other in many ways.

"Who" knows if it's already happening ("Who," won't tell me anything but his name), but pilots "test driving" the different aircraft, gives them a true feel for the actual capability of what each one can do. "Who" knows if a number of those f-16s end up in India as "payment" for basing? "Who" noticed the number of f-16s Israel upgraded and India's want/need to hold them over until whatever is next?
"Who" knows about pilots and others rotating through the different countries to train in different conditions (terrain, size, etc), learn from other people?

AnyWho, from the ability to train together in the air and on the ground, sharing intel, technology that will aid in the problems each country faces ("Who" knows if it's just military/Special forces or goes into other crazy things like advances in medicine--need to keep "troops" alive... and many other things down this "green line"?), will mutually benefit each country.

-As always (JMHO).:D

-@funtz,
Goa is a trip I'll make anytime... for the music, obviously;) (You get the sponsor and I'll DJ)! Talk about "High-flying" in a crowded electronic jammed area... it's the inevitable loss of "fuel" and "crash" on the way home that's a little rough... tylenol does the job of the maintenance team!;)

"The press information bureau of Indian government.
and be patient with the website sometimes it is not functioning due to over enthusiastic India haters."
Hey man, the more "Haters" you have, the more "HaterAid" you know people want you to "serve/give" them... you're holding the gold!

Peace

[nevidimka]

I dont see Malaysia having any joint excersises with pakistan in the forseeable future. If any it would be with India due to the operational experience of the su 30 mki and the mig29. Plus india could also offer support for these 2 aircrafts, and Malaysia wouldnt sour relations with India so that pakistan gets a peek of the mki's cousin.

[funtz]

I think as recent news suggests HAL is supplying parts to the Irkut in Russia the MKM might in future have parts made in HAL,
It might be better for Malaysia to have a maintanence, spare parts etc. deal with India.
After a long time of license manufacturing now HAL is in good shape, the MiG corp. and HAL have been in the news for setting up engine/spare stores/manufacturing in India, so there is another potential cooperation field.

If the Super Duper Hornet gets through the MRCA :unknown , it indo-malay AF coorp might be too good to pass :D

If R MAF trains with PAF i dont see how that will have an effect on Indo-Malay AF cooperation.

If some good ol- in the loop- military guy can help me, how does training with a F-16 or a SU-30 compromise that platform to a significant degree?


"Who" knows if it's already happening ("Who," won't tell me anything but his name), but pilots "test driving" the different aircraft, gives them a true feel for the actual capability of what each one can do. "Who" knows if a number of those f-16s end up in India as "payment" for basing? "Who" noticed the number of f-16s Israel upgraded and India's want/need to hold them over until whatever is next?
"Who" knows about pilots and others rotating through the different countries to train in different conditions (terrain, size, etc), learn from other people?


There was this report in a website, haven't heard any thing in the media about this afterwards.

IDFAF pilot posted in India will be flying MiG-29B Baaz operating from Adampur Airbase which is located in western India (Punjab) 100 kilometers East of the Pakistan border.
IAF pilot will be attached with Israeli Tayset squadron which operates F-16C/D Barak from Hatzor air force base Located near the lower west coast of Israelb/b] , Hatzor airbase is home to three squadrons of F-16 A/B/C/D operated by 101 , 105 , 144 Squadrons by IDFAF
similarly pilots from the Transport wing will also be exchanged IAF pilot will be attached to C-130 Squadron and a IDFAF pilot will be attached to IL-76 Squadron and IAF Helicopter pilot will be attached to CH-53 Squadron and a IDFAF pilot will be attached to MI-17 units

http://www.idrw.org/2007/10/18/iaf_and_idfaf_to_exchange_pilots.html

Who knows might very well be true.

(can any one here confirm or deny this)

Anyways if this is so similar arrangement might be there with RSAF, again not much about the arrangements seems to be hitting the net.

[aaaditya]

I dont see Malaysia having any joint excersises with pakistan in the forseeable future. If any it would be with India due to the operational experience of the su 30 mki and the mig29. Plus india could also offer support for these 2 aircrafts, and Malaysia wouldnt sour relations with India so that pakistan gets a peek of the mki's cousin.

i believe india is already providing malaysian airforce with training and maintainence support for its su-30mkm and the mig29.malaysia has also been principally approved as one of the candidates for the supply of brahmos cruise missiles.

[nevidimka]

For india's sake, i hope they dont take the SH. Thier usage would have depend on US liking it. I dont think US would allow the SH to be used to strike thier ally Pakistan. Plus is US willing to sell all the advanced weaponry that truely makes the SH worthwhile to buy?

[aaaditya]

hey guys,check this out,hjt-36 sitara has been added to the aerospece-technology website,it becomes the second indian aircraft after the tejas to be added to this website,performance specifications have also been provided for the sitara however these are for the aircraft equipped with the snecma larzac engine,the sitara is to be equipped with the higher thrust al55i engine being developed by russia for india as a replacement for the larzac engine.

here is the link for the sitara:

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hjttrainer/