H & K 416

[USNavySEAL3310]

I just watched something on the new H & K 416 and was really impressed. It has various attachments to convert a sniper to an M203 launcher, a shotgun to a compact rifle, etc. It is also extremely reliable when it comes to burying the gun in sand or completely submerging it in water, so similar in reliability to the AK. I did however have a few questions as it was the first time I'd seen it.

Does anyone have any first-hand experience firing this weapon? Is it as easy to use and reliable as it appears to be? Is it a serious future weapon? Will it be a a mass produced infantry assault rifle or reserved for SFs? Will there be a civilian design (obviously w/out full auto)?

I'd appreciate any additional light you can shine on this topic.

Thanks.

[Border Man]

Are you sure bt photos are of the H&K? The second weapon has the bolt assist, basic receiver shape, dust cover and pistol grip of an M16. Is it an M16 derivative?

[merocaine]

here's a little Flash animation comparing the 416's short stroke gas piston with the M4's gas tube system.

http://www.armytimes.com/projects/flash/2007_02_20_carbine/

[Aussie Digger]

Are you sure bt photos are of the H&K? The second weapon has the bolt assist, basic receiver shape, dust cover and pistol grip of an M16. Is it an M16 derivative?

The H&K 416 IS an M16. It's only modified internally...

[Izzy1]

Some more on the HK416 and its part in the recent "M-4 Carbine Controversy" from Defence Industry Daily.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#hk

[USNavySEAL3310]

A few more questions...

So if it has the same basics as the M16, was the making of the 416 a type of joint or semi-joint project between Colt and H & K?

I'm not too familiar with gas operated rifles. Can anyone sum up how it works in one sentence and how it differs from other types of rifle systems in another sentence?

Does anyone here have any personal experience firing it? I've seen it shoot but can't judge the recoil or its accuracy from seeing someone else shoot. I've shot the AR-15 and CAR (both civ versions) if you can judge it in those terms.

Expanding from the above, any chance this will be modified (no full) for the civilian world?

Thanks.

[DavidDCM]

A few more questions...

So if it has the same basics as the M16, was the making of the 416 a type of joint or semi-joint project between Colt and H & K?



No, on the contrary. HK developed it on their own, combining the G36/XM8 short stroke piston system with the outer appearance of the AR-15 family (probably for better marketing in the US, as well as being able to use the broad range of additional equipment available for AR-15s). In the beginning they even called it "HK M4", but were sued by Colt name copyrights, so renamed it into HK 416 (which is basically a combination of M4 and M16 without the "M", not very creative).

I'm not too familiar with gas operated rifles. Can anyone sum up how it works in one sentence and how it differs from other types of rifle systems in another sentence?

Well, one sentence? Difficult :D
I maybe could explain it, but not in english... :( You don't understand german, I guess?

Does anyone here have any personal experience firing it? I've seen it shoot but can't judge the recoil or its accuracy from seeing someone else shoot. I've shot the AR-15 and CAR (both civ versions) if you can judge it in those terms.

No, I'm sorry. My only experience is with the G36, and I don't think that it is all too comparable to the 416. And I'm being far from being an expert on the G36, too.

Expanding from the above, any chance this will be modified (no full) for the civilian world?

Thanks.

That's a bit complicated. The 416 upper is treated as part of a machinegun due to US laws (don't ask me why! ) and therefore is is not allowed to be imported. It's only Law Enforcement agencies (and the military, of course) who are allowed to buy it. But, as far as I understand the story, there were Law Enforcement agencies who bought (or could buy) complete 416s and then scrap the Lower, afterwards selling the uppers to civilians. But that's really a complicated juristic mess, in which I'm not really adept.

[9ak]

H&K 416 is nothing more than M4. Difference is that upper of 416 is piston driven. Lowers are the same. I believe that Colt is or already have made their piston driven upper for M4.

[9ak]

H&K 416 is nothing more than M4. Difference is that upper of 416 is piston driven. Lowers are the same. I believe that Colt is or already have made their piston driven upper for M4.

Is designing or already have made. Sorry for bad sentence.

[Waylander]

And exactly that gives the HK416 an advantage when it comes to replacing the M16s and M4s in US service.
The US only has to buy the upper part and can go on using the old handles.

Makes it a cheaper solution than buying a whole new weapon.

[merocaine]

I believe that Colt is or already have made their piston driven upper for M4.

they certainly took there time about it, only got there ass's into gear when they felt the competiton breathing down there neck.

[9ak]

ht*p://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/POF416.pdf

Although it is not H&K 416, it´s designation 416 would point on that that it is same design, at least I believe that.

I liked 9000 rounds before stoppage fact, they didn´t clean it (pretty AK-ish don´t you think). Clearly better mechanism than of M-16 series, concerning reliability.

[extern]

they certainly took there time about it, only got there ass's into gear when they felt the competiton breathing down there neck.Dont be too sure, the dust conditions tests between the competitors are postpointed :D http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/army_rifletest_070920/

[Rossiman]

I have had a chance to fire this, and let me say you would think it has more recoil.

[IHCrusader]

ht*p://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/POF416.pdf

Although it is not H&K 416, it´s designation 416 would point on that that it is same design, at least I believe that.

I liked 9000 rounds before stoppage fact, they didn´t clean it (pretty AK-ish don´t you think). Clearly better mechanism than of M-16 series, concerning reliability.
I think the POF P415 is exactly what I'd want to fill in the hunger for an H&K 416 type AR and since this carbine/rifle has been well reviewed I plan on acquiring my own in the near future after I return from deployment. I am still debating whether or not to buy the 16" version or opt for the 18" rifle version. I am only familiar with the standard issue Colt M-16A2 service rifle so how much would the 16" barrel hurt my marksmanship? I am used to shooting targets at distances ranging from 200, 300, and 500 yds. I want the added ability to accurately engage targets from 500 yds, will the shorter barrel keep me from this?

[Rossiman]

I think the POF P415 is exactly what I'd want to fill in the hunger for an H&K 416 type AR and since this carbine/rifle has been well reviewed I plan on acquiring my own in the near future after I return from deployment. I am still debating whether or not to buy the 16" version or opt for the 18" rifle version. I am only familiar with the standard issue Colt M-16A2 service rifle so how much would the 16" barrel hurt my marksmanship? I am used to shooting targets at distances ranging from 200, 300, and 500 yds. I want the added ability to accurately engage targets from 500 yds, will the shorter barrel keep me from this?

Go with the shorter barrel. My dad has a M16A4 with a 16'' barrel, and he has a AR-15 with a 18"barrel. The 18" barrel has little to no advantages over the 16''. Go with what you like, and what you are used to using. If you are using a 16" go with it, if a 18" then go with that. It's all about the type of target shooting you are doing.
Hope i helped.

[martitrmartitr]

I think the POF P415 is exactly what I'd want to fill in the hunger for an H&K 416 type AR and since this carbine/rifle has been well reviewed I plan on acquiring my own in the near future after I return from deployment. I am still debating whether or not to buy the 16" version or opt for the 18" rifle version. I am only familiar with the standard issue Colt M-16A2 service rifle so how much would the 16" barrel hurt my marksmanship? I am used to shooting targets at distances ranging from 200, 300, and 500 yds. I want the added ability to accurately engage targets from 500 yds, will the shorter barrel keep me from this?

The long barrel is the obvious choice for target shooting. It gives you better accuracy at longer ranges.
The only reason for a short barrel is for better weapon handling.
That means if you don`t expect to be jumping in and out of vehicles in a hurry, or doing any FIBUA, go with the long barrel!

[DavidDCM]

Double post? Sorry, i seem to have made a mistake. Look beneath for the correct post:

[DavidDCM]

Dont be too sure, the dust conditions tests between the competitors are postpointed :D http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/09/army_rifletest_070920/

Bringing this thread back up, cause the test has now finally been performed:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

M4 performed worst, causing about four to seven times as many jams as the other 3 rifles.

[9ak]

882 stoppages in 60000 rounds. Sounds reliable enough to me.

[merocaine]

Hmmm, I wonder how the test would have panned out if less lube would have been used? I remember reading that the blow back system was much more dependent on the use of lube during dust tests, withdrawal of which has a much greater effect than on piston systems.

[Chino]

There's a recurring problem with those claims of M16/M4 "frequently jamming" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

They will invariably start out by talking about the M16/M4's notorious carbon-fouling gas system and then switch lane smoothly to talk about the weapon's susceptibility to sand and dust.

And they won't make a concrete connection between the two.

...

Take this M4 jam in Afghanistan incident for example: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

FIRST PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger's C47 chopper just crashed landed. This could mean that he just came fresh from a base, where I assume his rifle must be reasonably free of sand. And a helicopter ride shouldn't expose you to as much sand as walking, for example.

So his weapon jam is unlikely to have been caused by sand.


SECOND PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
His weapon jammed soon after firing. So he can't have fired that many rounds.

So his M4 can't have jammed due to carbon build up.


THIRD PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger himself did not blame the gas system nor did he ID the cause of the jam - and most importantly - he did not criticize the M4 per se. He did not say it's a frequent occurence.

All the criticism and insinuation came from the author himself, as well as all the lavish praise for the HK416.

...

Since the real cause of the jam was not postmortem and not verified, how can author claim that the cure should be a HK416?

The M4 in the story must be relatively clean. The double feed could have been cause by a bad magazine.

If the same bad magazine was inserted into a HK416, the double feed would still have occurred, piston-drive or not wouldn't have made any difference.

Most such stories just expects you to accept without question that the M4 jammed due to its gas system.

If the M4 jam was not caused by the gas system, then would we have been duped into buying the wrong medicine in the HK416?

[Chino]

If the M4 is such a POS why then the SAS of England, Australia and NZ all chose it over their respective military's prefered bullpups?

Or indeed, over ANY other firearms they can have?

And of course, when in doubt, ask the Israelis. All the more reason cos they live and fight in the desert.

Most of the wars they fought are for the survival of the nation, so they dispense with the luxury of little political intrigues.

When something doesn't work, the IDF throw them away. When something works, the IDF keep them. PERIOD.

...

E.g. the superb FN FAL was used for less than a decade before being retired as they were found to malfunction in the sand.
And guess what? The FN FAL is a PISTON-DRIVEN weapon.

So PISTON-DRIVE as a magic bullet for reliability in the desert over the M16's gas system is pure rubbish!!!

Instead, the IDF loved the M16 and kept it for over 30 years in preference over their own Galil even. Why didn't we hear of them complaining about jams and sand etc? Yes they are now switching over to the Tavor but only because the Tavor is better, not because the M16/M4 didn't work.

EDIT: It tickles me to no end that the Israelis found the "problematic" M16 to be more reliable that the famed FN FAL in the desert.

[eckherl]

There's a recurring problem with those claims of M16/M4 "frequently jamming" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

They will invariably start out by talking about the M16/M4's notorious carbon-fouling gas system and then switch lane smoothly to talk about the weapon's susceptibility to sand and dust.

And they won't make a concrete connection between the two.

...

Take this M4 jam in Afghanistan incident for example: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

FIRST PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger's C47 chopper just crashed landed. This could mean that he just came fresh from a base, where I assume his rifle must be reasonably free of sand. And a helicopter ride shouldn't expose you to as much sand as walking, for example.

So his weapon jam is unlikely to have been caused by sand.


SECOND PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
His weapon jammed soon after firing. So he can't have fired that many rounds.

So his M4 can't have jammed due to carbon build up.


THIRD PROBLEM WITH THE STORY
The ranger himself did not blame the gas system nor did he ID the cause of the jam - and most importantly - he did not criticize the M4 per se. He did not say it's a frequent occurence.

All the criticism and insinuation came from the author himself, as well as all the lavish praise for the HK416.

...

Since the real cause of the jam was not postmortem and not verified, how can author claim that the cure should be a HK416?

The M4 in the story must be relatively clean. The double feed could have been cause by a bad magazine. And the ranger threw the M4 away cos the rounds got jammed and the cleaning rod broke.

If the same bad magazine was inserted into a HK416, the double feed would still have occurred, the cleaning rod would still have broke.

Most such stories just expects you to accept without question that the M4 jammed due to its gas system.

If the M4 jam was not caused by the gas system, then would we have been duped into buying the wrong medicine in the HK416?

Good points Chino - alot of these concerns inregards to the M16 family is over blown, the troops are getting the job done with the M4.

[Chino]

What is the M16's achilles heel?

It's the rotating bolt.

If this thing cannot move freely and smoothly, the weapon will NOT feed, extract... etc.

You have to oil this bugger lightly, too much is bad and no oil is also trouble.

The M16's gas system puts carbon into the rotating bolt which eventually clogs it up and causes stoppages etc.

But this only happens to weapons that have been fired a great deal.

...

But the rumour spreaders now alleges that fine desert dust can clog up an M16. And IMO, if this is truly happening, it can only mean that once again, it is the rotating bolt that is affected. For there is absolutely no other parts of the rifle that is so sensitive and can be affected by a buildup of fine dust.

So, there we have it, a new problem: fine dust clogging the rotating bolt.

...

However, this raises an issue for the HK416's much vaunted piston-drive:

The HK416 piston-drive eliminates the carbon problem. But this new clogging problem has nothing to do with carbon. It is sand, isn't it?

Furthermore, the piston can only push the bolt carrier.

If the rotating bolt is clogged with fine dust, the piston can push the bolt carrier all it wants - the weapon will still not function.

[Waylander]

You raised good points. which are defenitely valid.

But I would not say that the Israelis using M16 instead of their own Galil is a good example.

They can buy the M16 with military aid for low price. And the Galil is not really a lightweight.
For a country which has to look closely at it's non-US funded part of budget it is not that hard of a decision to opt for M-16s.

[Chino]

You raised good points. which are defenitely valid.

But I would not say that the Israelis using M16 instead of their own Galil is a good example.

They can buy the M16 with military aid for low price. And the Galil is not really a lightweight.
For a country which has to look closely at it's non-US funded part of budget it is not that hard of a decision to opt for M-16s.


Yes, I agree. But if the M16 was faulty in the desert, the IDF HAD a backup already in stock in the form of the Galil. But they never had to resort to using the Galil much cos the M16 worked in the desert.

[Waylander]

Ah, I see were you're heading for.

Jup, that sounds right.

[eckherl]

What is the M16's achilles heel?

It's the rotating bolt.

If this thing cannot move freely and smoothly, the weapon will NOT feed, extract... etc.

You have to oil this bugger lightly, too much is bad and no oil is also trouble.

The M16's gas system puts carbon into the rotating bolt which eventually clogs it up and causes stoppages etc.

But this only happens to weapons that have been fired a great deal.

...

But the rumour spreaders now alleges that fine desert dust can clog up an M16. And IMO, if this is truly happening, it can only mean that once again, it is the rotating bolt that is affected. For there is absolutely no other parts of the rifle that is so sensitive and can be affected by a buildup of fine dust.

So, there we have it, a new problem: fine dust clogging the rotating bolt.

...

However, this raises an issue for the HK416's much vaunted piston-drive:

The HK416 piston-drive eliminates the carbon problem. But this new clogging problem has nothing to do with carbon. It is sand, isn't it?

Furthermore, the piston can only push the bolt carrier.

If the rotating bolt is clogged with fine dust, the piston can push the bolt carrier all it wants - the weapon will still not function.

Where some of the problem lies is where the rotating bolt flanges enter the rifle barrel flanges, if you do not clean both ends properly and let carbon and other debris rest in these grooves then the bolt cannot enter the barrel preventing a good lock up. This is where cleaning especially on the barrel flange side is a bugger being time consuming and some soldiers do not place any effort into it. A good NCO would conduct periodic inspections to ensure that they are doing this.

[sempertalis]

The Norwegian army has chosen the HK416 as their new rifle and ordered some 30000. Say goodbye to the good old G3!

[buglerbilly]

Am I totally wrong here but didn't the Norwegian Army also order "some" HK417's?

Regards,

BUG

[dobrodan]

The Norwegian army has chosen the HK416 as their new rifle and ordered some 30000. Say goodbye to the good old G3!

I believe the number is about 8500... Unless something happened recently...

And also a few MP-7 and HK417...

[sempertalis]

I believe the number is about 8500... Unless something happened recently...

And also a few MP-7 and HK417...


Ok! Checked the net, U R right! Mea culpa.
Unless, met a Norwegian soldier in a very special school in Germany and he said the ultimate number would be around 30000. Let´s wait and see? :unknown

[Waylander]

Which school was that if I may ask?
Altenburg? :)

[sempertalis]

Which school was that if I may ask?
Altenburg? :)


No, a school where many different nations train together and do "special" stuff. It´s in the south and the Bodensee is rather nearby. ;)

[Waylander]

Aaah, ok.

I see, I see... ;)

[Rythm]

why the secrecy? it should be fairly obvious wich school is ment, shouldnt it?

[kato]

why the secrecy? it should be fairly obvious wich school is ment, shouldnt it?

Nope. There's actually quite a number of "schools" within that area.

Could be:

Sigmaringen (NBC School)
Calw (KSK)
Mittenwald (German Mountain Inf School)
Saalfelden (Austrian Mountain Inf School)
Sonthofen (MP School)
Stetten am kalten Markt (MP Bodyguard/VIP Protection Training)

Münsingen (Urban Combat Training Site) is out at least, closed in 2005.

(actually, i think i forgot one or two... oh well)

*cough* ... yes, this post will confuse people.

[Waylander]

My bet was just on Calw and still is.

The other schools are not that special anyway. Ok, Stetten am kalten Arsch is especially unfriendly reagrding the weather...

[kato]

Ok, Stetten am kalten Arsch is especially unfriendly reagrding the weather...

Nah, not that unfriendly really. I have family who lives ... well, in the same area. Winter lasts 8-9 months there :rolleyes:

Damn glad that back then 10 years ago we never went. We were originally supposed to go there for training, then to Münsingen for urban combat instead (didn't pan out either for lack of money) - then went to some run-down shoddy training site north of Kassel instead.

[Waylander]

That is one of the reasons I was glad that most of the time we never went further south than Bergen/Munster. ;)

Ok, it rains all the time but in the end it is not that cold. :D

[sempertalis]

Nope. There's actually quite a number of "schools" within that area.

Could be:

Sigmaringen (NBC School)
Calw (KSK)
Mittenwald (German Mountain Inf School)
Saalfelden (Austrian Mountain Inf School)
Sonthofen (MP School)
Stetten am kalten Markt (MP Bodyguard/VIP Protection Training)

Münsingen (Urban Combat Training Site) is out at least, closed in 2005.

(actually, i think i forgot one or two... oh well)

*cough* ... yes, this post will confuse people.


No, it´s not Calw.
It´s the one you forgot I was talking about!;)
FernspähKp 200 is also calling it it´s home. That may be enough information. If I give more info I must kill the internet. :D

[kato]

Ah, the one in the place with the same name as a suburb of the state capital then (which has a higher population too...) :D