BAE to Seal $40B Eurofighter Deal With Saudis

[chunga1]

not good news for the americans

Report: BAE to Seal $40B Eurofighter Deal With Saudis Next Week

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, LONDON


British defense firm BAE Systems will next week clinch a 20-billion-pound ($40.4 billion) deal to supply 72 Eurofighter Typhoon jets to Saudi Arabia, a report said Sept. 7.
"It is understood that the British government sent the Typhoon contract to King Abdullah two days ago," The Times newspaper in London wrote. "The king is expected to sign the contract next week, sealing one of the largest export orders ever won by the UK.”
A spokeswoman for BAE told the newspaper, "This is a government-to-government negotiation and we are unable to make any comment on it."
The Ministry of Defence said negotiations were continuing, according to The Times.
It had been feared that the deal would be scuppered because of a British investigation into allegations that Saudi Arabia took bribes from BAE under a military plane deal struck between Britain and the Middle Eastern kingdom more than 20 years ago.
Britain’s Serious Fraud Office last year investigated BAE Systems’ 43-billion-pound Al-Yamamah deal in 1985, which provided Hawk and Tornado jets plus other military equipment to Saudi Arabia.
But the investigation was shelved by the British government last December in a move supported by then-Prime Minister Tony Blair amid concerns over Britain’s national interests.
Despite this, the U.S. Department of Justice in June launched its own investigation into BAE Systems amid allegations the British arms maker paid bribes to secure contracts in Saudi Arabia in the 1980s.
BAE Systems is alleged to have set up a 60-million-pound "slush fund" for members of the Saudi royal family to secure business, and made illegal payments to those involved in its deals. BAE strenuously denies the charges.

[kato]

For those wondering about the price:

The 20 billion pounds include maintenance and upgrade contracts over the next 25 years.

The jets themselves are being bought for 10 billion pounds, as agreed upon in 2006.

[swerve]

For those wondering about the price:

The 20 billion pounds include maintenance and upgrade contracts over the next 25 years.

The jets themselves are being bought for 10 billion pounds, as agreed upon in 2006.

I'm rather skeptical that even the Saudis would pay £10 billion pounds just for 72 Typhoons. While the rumoured price may be correct (but we don't know that), I'm sure it would include a lot more than just the aircraft. Previous aircraft sales to Saudi Arabia have all been packaged with weapons, training, spares, etc.

[kato]

I'm rather skeptical that even the Saudis would pay £10 billion pounds just for 72 Typhoons. While the rumoured price may be correct (but we don't know that), I'm sure it would include a lot more than just the aircraft. Previous aircraft sales to Saudi Arabia have all been packaged with weapons, training, spares, etc.

Over the last two years, the stated contract price (for the aircraft only) has gone up and down again and again, between 6 billion and 10 billion (in late 2005, for 6 billion, the number of aircraft was kept confidential though).

The latest figures i've seen went with a around 10 billion contract for aircraft + training + initial parts package, with a "potential for an overall 20 billion" if BAE scored the maintenance/upgrade contract for the entire 25-year lifetime (which they apparently did).

[SaudiArabian]

the Saudi government issued a statement before saying that the price which will be paid is the same price been paid by RAF for their Typhoons

and i heard the price 6.8-6.9 Billion $ as a price for the 72 jets,

the rest are for maintenance , transfer of technology , armament and domestic weapons production

just know the price of one Typhoon and multiply it in 72

[Ryttare]

The numbers I've seen in Swedish press is 5 bn pound for the planes, another 5 bn for weapons and the rest for maintenance.

[tphuang]

the Saudi government issued a statement before saying that the price which will be paid is the same price been paid by RAF for their Typhoons

and i heard the price 6.8-6.9 Billion $ as a price for the 72 jets,

the rest are for maintenance , transfer of technology , armament and domestic weapons production

just know the price of one Typhoon and multiply it in 72

yeah, but do you really believe that? You are basically paying $550 million per typhoon over its lifetime. Ouch.

[SaudiArabian]

yeah, but do you really believe that? You are basically paying $550 million per typhoon over its lifetime. Ouch.

Al Salam deal (<< it won't be called Al Yamamah 3 afterall) will include training of over 10000 Saudi personnel plus a domestic center to develop weapons. also not to forget to mention the transfer of technology , the spareparts , the weaponary , the logistics...

all these together will cost big prices but it will massively enhance the RSAF capability over any competitor neighbors including the Israeli air force

i noticed in local newspapers from time to time that BAE company puts lots of jobs oppurtunities specified for Saudis only.

also not to forget , the payments differ .. i mean the Kingdom isn't paying the 40 Billion $ in few hours with a cheque. it will be schedules paiments for the next two decades or more.

[swerve]

Over the last two years, the stated contract price (for the aircraft only) has gone up and down again and again, between 6 billion and 10 billion (in late 2005, for 6 billion, the number of aircraft was kept confidential though).

The latest figures i've seen went with a around 10 billion contract for aircraft + training + initial parts package, with a "potential for an overall 20 billion" if BAE scored the maintenance/upgrade contract for the entire 25-year lifetime (which they apparently did).

But stated by who? All the numbers I've seen have been press speculation. Not one has had a whiff of having come from an official source, even off the record.

[Alpha Epsilon]

Assuming this deal will go through at 20 billion pounds I think the price is not too high, just consider what will probably be part of it.

- 72 Typhoons
- Tornado upgrade
- missiles (probably ASRAAM, Storm Shadow, Paveway and Brimstone)
- a Typhoon final assembly factory in Saudi-Arabia
- Some Technology Transfer
- Maintenance for the life of the Typhoons
- Training of RSAF personnel in the UK

Things such as new Hawks will probably be a seperate contract.

[Waylander]

Is Storm Shadow fixed as the stand off weapon of choice or is Taurus also in the race?
Ok, BAE is doing the contract for this part of the world but maybe...

[Khairul Alam]

the initial plan included assembly of some of the jets locally in SA. is that plan still on??

[Scorpius]

seems to be.sounds like a really good deal to me for KSA,no downgraded hardware like in the case of F-15s(Desert eagle version).
If KSA have this fighter aircraft they will be having F-15Cs,F-15Ss,Panavia Tornadoes and EF Typhoons.The F-15S will still have the air superiority role,right?

[Alpha Epsilon]

Is Storm Shadow fixed as the stand off weapon of choice or is Taurus also in the race?
Ok, BAE is doing the contract for this part of the world but maybe...

Yes, at least that is what I have read.

[swerve]

Is Storm Shadow fixed as the stand off weapon of choice or is Taurus also in the race?
Ok, BAE is doing the contract for this part of the world but maybe...

Saudi Tornados have been seen & photographed flying around in the UK with Storm Shadow. Would seem sensible to procure the same type of missile for both Tornado & Typhoon.

[chunga1]

is this an announced deal yet?

[Waylander]

Thanks for the answers. :)

[Alpha Epsilon]

It might have been already signed, the Saudi Crown Prince was set to present the deal for signature by the Saudi King today.

[riksavage]

According to the UK Times, the MOD is looking at a renegotiating, curtailing or even cancelling the RAF’s Tranche 3 Typhoon order in favour of diverting the funds to the F35B programme for the new carriers.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article2441602.ece

The Tranche 3 order would then be funnelled to Saudi Arabia.

Makes sense to me, we ordered too many Typhoons in the first place and we need the much anticipated F35B’s for maritime strike. Any additional savings can be utilised to buy much needed medium-helicopter lift to support UK land forces.

[Grand Danois]

Give the Treasury this answer

However, Mr Zoller insisted that the Tranche 3 contract was firm and that this was not an option.

“The Saudi order will be on top, not instead of Tranche 3,” he said.

and let them negotiate and find the cost savings. The contract was designed with exactly this situation in mind. Good luck getting all four partners agree to this.

Anyhow, the ordered numbers of Typhoons fits the bill. Not too many. Treasury is just cutting money where there isn't any to cut, so it seems the JSF will have to take the blow.

[SaudiArabian]

Saudis set to pay cash, not oil for UK jets
Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:14pm EDT

By Jason Neely, European Aerospace & Airlines Correspondent

LONDON, Sept 11 (Reuters) - Britain and Saudi Arabia are close to a multibillion dollar fighter jet deal that will use cash in a break from controversial arms-for-oil pacts of the past, according to a source familiar with the process.

The deal, which the source said could be struck as early as Tuesday, is aimed at providing greater transparency after secretive past deals triggered investigations into suspected bribery. Saudi Arabia is expected to spend up to 20 billion pounds

($41 billion) on 72 Eurofighter Typhoon combat jets, including weapons, spares and maintenance.

Saudi Defence Minister Prince Sultan was due to present terms of the deal to King Abdullah for approval in a meeting in Jeddah on Tuesday, the source said, adding it was not certain whether the Saudi government would announce the outcome immediately.

Saudi Arabia's defence ministry was not available for immediate comment.

A spokesman for Britain's Ministry of Defence declined to comment except to say a deal was expected by year's end.

The company that will serve as prime contractor, BAE Systems declined to comment on the state-to-state deal.


AL YAMAMAH

Previous Anglo-Saudi arms-for-oil deals, dubbed Al Yamamah, Arabic for "the dove", began in the mid-1980s and remain the largest export contracts in British history.

Al Yamamah netted BAE and other firms more than 40 billion pounds ($87.11 billion) in business, with Saudi Arabia earmarking as much as 600,000 barrels of crude oil a day to be sold on account for the UK to pay for Tornado combat jets and other equipment and services.

Equipment and services were supplied according to the value of allocated fixed daily volumes of oil output, with occasional cash compensation when crude prices dipped.

When the latest requirement was agreed in 2006 it was seen by analysts as an extension of the Al Yamamah deals, with further volumes of oil to be sold for the UK.

At current prices, the programme's estimated 20 billion pound price tag would be worth some 250 million barrels, or enough to meet the UK's oil needs for almost five months.


PROBES LAUNCHED

The new deal is expected to break from that arrangement, however, using cash that will come from the Saudi defence budget instead, the source said.

The barter for oil used in the past spurred concerns about transparency and probes into possible bribes paid to Saudi officials were launched by both UK and U.S. authorities.

The UK's Serious Fraud Office dropped its two-year investigation last December only after then Prime Minister Tony Blair said pursuing it further could harm UK-Saudi diplomatic relations.

The U.S. Department of Justice said in June it would investigate BAE. Sources told Reuters the focus would be on BAE's past compliance with the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which prohibits bribes of foreign officials.

BAE, now the sixth largest defence company in the U.S. market, has denied any wrongdoing.

Britain tightened its anti-bribery laws in 2001, more than 20 years after the United States did so.

The Eurofighter Typhoon combat jet is built by a consortium of BAE, Airbus parent EADS and Alenia Aeronautica, a unit of Italy's Finmeccanica.

((Editing by Mike Elliott; +44-207-542-8825, fax +44-207-542-7634; Reuters Messaging: Jason.neely.reuters@reuters.net; e-mail: jason.neely@reuters.com))

($1=.4936 Pound) Keywords: SAUDI BRITAIN/

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[SaudiArabian]

Saudi plans to build aerospace industry
Saudi Arabia: Saturday, September 15 - 2007 at 14:36

A major Saudi order for British military aircraft looks set to be confirmed during or near the time of King Abdullah's state visit to the UK in October.

Diplomats say that both countries are committed to concluding the defence agreement which is expected to be the most ambitious and complex yet reached by the kingdom with the UK, or any other supplier of military equipment.


A history of deals

The core deal involves an estimated $40bn delivery of 72 Eurofighter aircraft, designated by the British Royal Air Force as the Typhoon. Another $9bn is thought likely to be spent on acquiring armaments, spare parts and training services for the aircraft.

BAE Systems, previously known as British Aerospace, has had a long and lucrative relationship with the kingdom since 1966, when Lightning fighter and Strikemaster trainer aircraft, as well as surface to air missile systems and support, were sold for the then enormous sum of $2bn.

Much larger contracts for the company followed notably in 1986 when 72 Tornado fighter bombers, 30 Hawk advanced jet trainer aircraft and 30 Pilatus PC-9 initial trainer aircraft were sold. A second phase of the deal, known as Al Yamamah, came in 1988 with an additional order for Tornado and Hawk aircraft, as well as helicopters and minesweepers.


Training and employing Saudis

BAE's CEO Mike Turner says that the Al Yamamah programme has resulted in $43bn worth of orders since 1985. As a result, the company is a major employer in the kingdom, retaining almost 5,000 staff, more than half of them Saudis.

Since 1966, some 19,000 Saudis have been trained at the Technical Training Studies Institute run by BAE. The company says it has trained 2,000 Saudi pilots and other air crew and another 2,000 ground support officers.

A unique element in the new contract will involve at least half the aircraft being built in the kingdom at a purpose built aerospace industrial site that could ultimately provide employment for thousands more Saudis.

The nucleus of an aerospace industry does already exist in the kingdom. Maintenance of Saudi Tornado aircraft is, for example, carried out by the Alsalam Aircraft Company and the Aircraft Accessories and Components Company, established as part of a Boeing offset venture.


Developing the industrial base

BAE Systems has also been involved in orchestrating the establishment of new industries in the kingdom through an economic offset programme since 1985. The latest memorandum of understanding involves UK support for the development of a regional defence centre of excellence.

Unlike US and French defence procurement arrangements with the kingdom, the Al Yamamah deals though have not included offset contractual obligations. BAE Systems as the prime UK contractor has undertaken to use its best endeavours to achieve investment targets. Whether or not this will be sufficient in future remains to be seen, since the proposal to build Typhoon aircraft in the kingdom raises any new deal to a whole new level.

The aim, BAE says, is to develop an engineering and manufacturing footprint in the kingdom that will result in original equipment manufacture in Saudi Arabia and provide a platform for aerospace exports.

AME Info (http://www.ameinfo.com/132086.html)

[Khairul Alam]

BAE lands Saudi plane deal

Richard Wachman
Sunday September 16, 2007
The Observer

Aerospace giant BAE is part of a consortium that has clinched a £40bn contract to supply 72 Eurofighter Typhoons to Saudi Arabia in the world's biggest defence deal.

The aircraft will replace the Tornados bought by the Saudis under the al-Yamamah oil-for-arms package agreed when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister in 1984. The Typhoon transaction will be worth £20bn to BAE over the next 20 years.

Al-Yamamah was the target of a Serious Fraud Office inquiry until the investigation was shut down after intervention by ex-PM Tony Blair in December. Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the son of the Saudi defence minister, is said to have received payments from BAE as part of the Tornado contract, but the company and the Prince have denied that the payments were improper.

One of the reasons cited for the abrupt closure of the Serious Fraud Office investigation was that it could jeopardise relations with the Saudi royal family and therefore the UK's efforts to fight terrorism. BAE also claimed that it could threaten the Typhoon order, which has bolstered the company's share price.

But the company still faces an investigation from the US Department of Justice, which in June announced a probe into whether the al-Yamamah deal broke anti-corruption laws.

Mike Turner, chief executive of BAE, said that the American investigation 'has not affected our business in the US in any way'. It denies any wrongdoing.

Eurofighter is a pan-European project and profits from the Saudi deal will be shared between BAE, Franco-German group EADS and Italy's Finmeccanica. The Typhoon is the most advanced fighter in the world after the American F22 Raptor.

The Typhoon deal, called Al-Salam, which means 'peace', is broken into several parts: a £5bn contract to supply the fighters, a further £5bn to spend on munitions, and the remaining £10bn to come from maintenance and upgrades.

BAE is building a large presence in Saudi in preparation for Typhoon deliveries and now employs 4,600 people there. The first 24 Typhoons are expected to be built at BAE's factory in Warton, Lancashire; the remaining jets will be assembled in Saudi Arabia.

The completion of the contract negotiations shows that the Saudis have put aside their concern over the SFO investigation. However, they are not expected to make a formal announcement of al-Salam's conclusion, partly out of concern that past corruption allegations will resurface. A plan for King Abdullah to sign the contract in London during his state visit in October has been dropped.

The renewed co-operation between the UK and Saudi Arabia could lead to other big contract wins for BAE. Saudi officials have been invited on board HMS Daring, the first of six new destroyers being built by BAE for the Royal Navy. The Saudis will join the warship for sea trials, which are currently taking place off the north coast of Scotland. They are thought to want to buy two of the £600m vessels.

[Khairul Alam]

BAE lands Saudi plane deal

The aircraft will replace the Tornados bought by the Saudis under the al-Yamamah oil-for-arms package agreed when Mrs Thatcher was Prime Minister in 1984. The Typhoon transaction will be worth £20bn to BAE over the next 20 years.



Doesnt make sense!! :confused: SA had upgraded its Tornadoes only two years ago..now they are to be replaced by the Typhoons.The Tornadoes didnt even complete their operational life and the Yammamah deal cost them tens of billions of pounds. Replacing the Tornado ADV's wud have made some sense...they suck at air combat. But the Tornado IDS's are pretty good as strike aircrafts.

[SaudiArabian]

Doesnt make sense!! :confused: SA had upgraded its Tornadoes only two years ago..now they are to be replaced by the Typhoons.The Tornadoes didnt even complete their operational life and the Yammamah deal cost them tens of billions of pounds. Replacing the Tornado ADV's wud have made some sense...they suck at air combat. But the Tornado IDS's are pretty good as strike aircrafts.

the Typhoon will not replace the Tornado IDS , some articles should clarify when they talk about that matter to avoid confusing the readers

and al Yamamah projects were not just "planes for oil" armsales. it is a large project that includes many things other than aircrafts

[swerve]

Doesnt make sense!! :confused: SA had upgraded its Tornadoes only two years ago..now they are to be replaced by the Typhoons.The Tornadoes didnt even complete their operational life and the Yammamah deal cost them tens of billions of pounds. Replacing the Tornado ADV's wud have made some sense...they suck at air combat. But the Tornado IDS's are pretty good as strike aircrafts.

Saudi Arabian has provided most of the answer, but I'll add this. The Typhoons will replace the ADVs.

BTW, it isn't accurate to say "SA had upgraded its Tornadoes only two years ago". The upgrade programme is still underway. These things don't happen overnight. Neither will the Typhoons enter service immediately. Assuming the order is signed in the next few days, the last Typhoon of 72 won't be delivered for several years. While I'm not saying the Typhoon will replace the Tornado IDS, the timescale doesn't rule it out. Procurement takes time, the oldest airframes of type A may not be worth putting into the upgrade process, so you can replace them with some of the new type B . . . and upgrading some of a type at the same time as selecting its replacement is not unknown. Forward planning . . .

[SaudiArabian]

Official Source of Defense and Aviation Ministry issues statement


Riyadh, September 17, SPA -- An official source at the Ministry of Defense and Aviation has issued the following statement:

"In line with the approval of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, and with reference to what was earlier announced about signing an understanding document by the governments of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom on 7/7/1427 AH, for the development of the Saudi Armed Forces within the framework of the existing close defense relations between the two countries and which include the purchase of 72 Typhoon planes in addition to transference of technology and investment in the field of defense industries in Saudi Arabia as well as training of Saudi citizens in the field of aviation, a contract was signed by the two governments on Tuesday, 29/8/1428 AH for purchase of the mentioned planes at a cost of 4, 430 million sterling pound.
It is worth mentioning that the price of one plane is similar to the price of the plane when it is sold to the Royal British Air forces.


Saudi Press Agency (http://www.spa.gov.sa/English/details.php?id=483432)


i hope this statement puts an end to the estimation numbers been suggested oftenly by various media resources

[Moderator edit]
Merging threads - we don't really need two on the same topic, even though I understand your wish to emphasise the price.

PJI
[/edit]

[Alpha Epsilon]

Apparently the first two Saudi Typhoons are already on the Warton final assembly line, the Tornado GR1 upgrade is going along too.

[Izzy1]

Doesnt make sense!! :confused: SA had upgraded its Tornadoes only two years ago..now they are to be replaced by the Typhoons.The Tornadoes didnt even complete their operational life and the Yammamah deal cost them tens of billions of pounds. Replacing the Tornado ADV's wud have made some sense...they suck at air combat. But the Tornado IDS's are pretty good as strike aircrafts.

As already stated on here, Typhoon initially only replaces the Tornado ADV in Saudi service, with RSAF's single ADV unit - 29 Squadron - having stood down at Tabuk in November 2006. Their remaining 19 ADV's are being purchased back by BAE Systems as part of the Al Salam (Typhoon) Programme. The introduction of Typhoon will also go someway to shoring up gaps left by the retirement of the F-5E Tiger II squadrons in the early 1990s.


RSAF's Tornado IDS (export variant GR.1) are also as stated, not being replaced yet by Typhoon and still undergoing the first phase of TSP - the Tornado Sustainment Programme. Phase 1 essentially deals with avionic and systems improvements to the platform with an improved navigation package and GPS, a greatly enhanced communications suite and a major revamp of the WSO's rear-seat workstation. Most of this work will be carried out within KSA and should be completed by 2009.

The likely yet still unsigned contract for Phase 2 of TSP introduces a complete range of new weapons systems for RSAF's Tornado IDS fleet. RSAF's ALARM ARM stocks will be refurbished. ASRAAM AAMs are likely to be introduced for the Tornado (no decision yet on whether this will be introduced to the Typhoon as well - Saudi has also ordered AIM-9X for its Eagles and may wish to see them integrated). Brimstone and Storm Shadow are also highly probable as well as Paveway IV PGM to replace older Paveway II systems and iron bombs. There is also speculation that RSAF's Tornado's may be rigged for JDAM, but personally I doubt that will happen.

[Izzy1]

Apparently the first two Saudi Typhoons are already on the Warton final assembly line, the Tornado GR1 upgrade is going along too.

This is correct, RSAF's initial aircraft are being diverted from batches originally assigned to RAF production to meet the customers introduction timeframe demands.

[SaudiArabian]

Saudi Typhoon pilots to train in UK
by Lynne Roberts on Tuesday, 25 September 2007

Saudi Arabia is to train the first 22 pilots and initial engineers for the Eurofighter Typhoon in the UK, following a recent $8.8bn 72 aircraft deal between the countries.

Initial training will take place at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, alongside RAF pilots, according to Flight International.

‘Project Salam’ was inked earlier this month following 21 months of negotiations amid ongoing repercussions from the earlier al-Yamamah arms deal.

Under the deal Saudi Arabia will procure aircraft for a similar price to those produced for the RAF, according to its defence ministry. However further arms and support contracts will substantially boost the value of the deal.

Riyadh’s first 24 Typhoons will be drawn from the UK’s deferred delivery of early Tranche 2 examples from a BAE Systems Lancashire assembly line, with the remainder to be completed at a new facility in Saudi Arabia, Flight International said.

The RAF and RSAF have co-operated with bilateral exercises for Tornado forces since February 2006. The UK service recently sent a senior officer to Riyadh for the first time to liaise between the nations’ air force chiefs.

ArabianBusiness.com (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/500850-saudi-to-train-typhoon-pilots-in-uk)

[Gripenator]

May I ask just a couple of questions regarding this deal:


-What are the capabilities/Tranches of these Saudi Typhoons compared to RAF and Luftwaffe EF's? Inclusion of future Meteor BVRAAMs?

-The nature of the ToT

and won't the deal for 72 EFs alter the balance of airpower in the region away from the IAF?

The F-16I's and even the F-15I's chances vs Ef-2000 Tranche 1 are not looking too good. I'm sure IAF training can negate some of the EF-2000 advantages but just how much?:confused:

Saudi Arabia isn't exactly the most stable country in the world with an headline unemployment rate of 25% and also being the birthplace of Wahhabism in addition to being 70/163 on the list of most corrupt countries in the world makes for a volatile mix. I'm just concerned the Saudi royal family will lose it and the entire country could be overrun by Wahhabi fanatics and this weaponry could fall into their hands.

[Titanium]

Thanks for your concers for humanity... from the evil what? "Wahabbiosm". Where did you come with the term? Did you learn in your school? coz as for me no one on earth claim himself to be follower or beloiver of "wahabism".
Oh I now get it ... you watch a lot of FOX News he he.

[Izzy1]

Moderator Statement:

Gentleman,

Lets not descend this thread into anarchy.

I accept that the "wahhabi" subject is for many people, especially from this part of the world, an emotive subject matter with a wide and varied range of opinions. However, it has nothing to do with the subject of this thread and Defence Talk is certainly not the forum for such discussion. Past threads, which have mentioned this subject, ended up in acrimony and disciplinary measures. The rules are clear.

So, let’s stop this before it gets going and stay on topic.

Gripenator does make some valid military comments in regards to Typhoon, let’s stick to answering those.

Thank You.

[Khairul Alam]

May I ask just a couple of questions regarding this deal:


-What are the capabilities/Tranches of these Saudi Typhoons compared to RAF and Luftwaffe EF's? Inclusion of future Meteor BVRAAMs?

-The nature of the ToT

and won't the deal for 72 EFs alter the balance of airpower in the region away from the IAF?

The F-16I's and even the F-15I's chances vs Ef-2000 Tranche 1 are not looking too good. I'm sure IAF training can negate some of the EF-2000 advantages but just how much?:confused:


As for technology transfer, SaudiArabian's posts make them pretty clear. In brief, building of an assembly plant in Saudi Arabia which will result in high end knowhow being trasferred to the Saudis with the aim of instigating "original equipment manufacture in SA".
Well the F-22s will be the best fighter jet in the Middle East, much better than the IAF F-15I and F-16Is (lets not consider the US F-22s, if there are any). But that wudnt mean the balance wud tip away from Israel. A key point is what air-to-air missiles these Typhoons will carry. I guess there hasnt been any word on that yet. Moreover, SA's air battle doctrine is mainly defensive, so Israel need not worry about intrusions.

[Waylander]

There are not many possible BVR missile combinations.
It could be AMRAAM (Maybe up to C-5) or Meteor in the future.

WVR missiles could be Sidewinder, ASRAAM and IRIS-T.

All these missiles are not what one would normally consider as outdated.

[swerve]

ASRAAM seems most likely. It appears to be the leading candidate for a WVR missile for their Tornado upgrade.

[Waylander]

Sure. Especially with BAE doing the negotiation with the Saudis...
I don't expect them to sell IRIS-T instead of ASRAAM. :D

So with AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM I don't see the Saudis being inferior to the Israeli fighters when it comes to AAMs.

[radiosilence]

The Israelis recently order 200 Aim-120 C7. They will still retain the edge to a certain extent.

[Brandon]

You know what's really sad: We (the U.S.) are going to have to end up selling our prized fighter (the F-22) to Israel because our European friends couldn't refuse the money Saudi Arabia was offering for the Eurofighter and keep it to themselves. Now the whole Israel lobby is going to force us into selling the Raptor. Why can't Europe just ever keep their best weapons to themselves? If they didn't sell the Typhoon to S.A. we wouldn't have to sell the F-22 to Israel. How can it be that the countries of NATO are basically forcing each other to sell weapons that shouldn't be exported? We should be keeping them safe in our own hands. Hell, this is absolutely absurd and truly baffles me.

[Izzy1]

Sure. Especially with BAE doing the negotiation with the Saudis...
I don't expect them to sell IRIS-T instead of ASRAAM. :D

So with AMRAAM/METEOR and ASRAAM I don't see the Saudis being inferior to the Israeli fighters when it comes to AAMs.

AMRAAM C-5 is certain for introduction but Meteor when developed is very likely, MBDA is already marketing the combination out here.

RSAF has requested details for compatibility on AIM-9M/X which they have ordered for their F-16S squadrons. Yet again however, in the interim, ASRAAM seems the most likely. Saying that, the contract to supply them as part of Tornado Sustainment Phase II has yet to be signed.

[swerve]

You know what's really sad: We (the U.S.) are going to have to end up selling our prized fighter (the F-22) to Israel because our European friends couldn't refuse the money Saudi Arabia was offering for the Eurofighter and keep it to themselves. Now the whole Israel lobby is going to force us into selling the Raptor. Why can't Europe just ever keep their best weapons to themselves? If they didn't sell the Typhoon to S.A. we wouldn't have to sell the F-22 to Israel. How can it be that the countries of NATO are basically forcing each other to sell weapons that shouldn't be exported? We should be keeping them safe in our own hands. Hell, this is absolutely absurd and truly baffles me.

Perhaps, if the USA didn't lean quite so hard on certain countries to buy American, & didn't persistently top European offers of our second-best weapons with something better, we could get away with not selling our best. If the world hadn't been flooded with F-16s, F-18s, & now F-18E, Dassault might still be selling Mirage F.1s, instead of having to push Rafale just to try to stay in the game.

[merocaine]

If the world hadn't been flooded with F-16s, F-18s, & now F-18E, Dassault might still be selling Mirage F.1s, instead of having to push Rafale just to try to stay in the game.

I have never understood the need to stay in the game, its hardly worth the candle.

[Scorpion82]

I have never understood the need to stay in the game, its hardly worth the candle.

It's all about money. The industry just try to sell its product to as much customers as possible to make money. It might also have a positive impact on the price for the original customers.

[swerve]

I have never understood the need to stay in the game, its hardly worth the candle.

France doesn't want to have to grovel to the USA for its fighters. Seems a pretty big candle to me.

[merocaine]

France doesn't want to have to grovel to the USA for its fighters. Seems a pretty big candle to me.

I did'ent mean France buying US, Just why the burning need to export? Its a national defence procurment, its not like there are big profits around in selling. To be in control of your weapon manafacturing should be the main thing, not how many foreigin sales you can rack up, F-16's to Morrocco are a case in point, why then sell at a loss?
Its one thing to sell to a close ally, its another to sell to a potentully unstable regime like the saudi's the most advanced aircraft you possess, for what? a few shekels, other than that I can't see any burning reason why this sale has be allowed to go through.

I'm aware this is way off topic...sorry!

[Izzy1]

Wearing my company hat, delivering Typhoon to Saudi was always about more than just profit. It is vital for numerous reasons.

Avoiding the Governmental, political and strategic reasons involved in the sale, from a purely industrial stand point Typhoon secures at least 5,000 UK jobs directly and some analysts reckon another 20,000 UK jobs indirectly (not to mention many thousands more with regards our Eurofighter partners). For the UK and European Aerospace industry, Typhoon's importance can be measured in terms of employment alone.

In terms of profit, with maintenance contracts alone over the lifecycle included, the deal could reach a figure of 30 Billion GBP+ No FTSE 100 company could turn their nose up at that.

Finally, the Saudi invetsment in Typhoon will allow further development of the platform to increase its capabilities. Again, for Europe's Aerospace industry this is vital as we compete in a market dominated by the US giants, the never-ending list of Flanker variants coming out of Sukhoi and the rapidly evolving Chinese and Indian aerospace industries.

I could go on for a while...

[Ryttare]

I did'ent mean France buying US, Just why the burning need to export? Its a national defence procurment, its not like there are big profits around in selling. To be in control of your weapon manafacturing should be the main thing, not how many foreigin sales you can rack up, F-16's to Morrocco are a case in point, why then sell at a loss?
Its one thing to sell to a close ally, its another to sell to a potentully unstable regime like the saudi's the most advanced aircraft you possess, for what? a few shekels, other than that I can't see any burning reason why this sale has be allowed to go through.

I'm aware this is way off topic...sorry!


Are you American? Because I never hear anything like this when the US sells weapons to various countries. A few years ago Chile seemed interested in buying Gripens, and even if it never became serious ex-president Carter was protesting loudly against it and said it would destabilize the region. When they instead bought F-16 he didn't say a word. He probably thought F-16 was worthless compared to Gripens so one has to see it as a complement.

The US has sold many quite capable weapons to Saudi Arabia, and also very important force multipliers as AWACS and AtA refueling tankers. Why does USA feel it has to sell weapons abroad when they themself has a such a big demand internally in it's own armed forces?

I think that considering a big share of this deal includes maintenance and training of crews the risk of the Typhoons used agressively against west and Israel is minimal.

[Izzy1]

You know what's really sad: We (the U.S.) are going to have to end up selling our prized fighter (the F-22) to Israel because our European friends couldn't refuse the money Saudi Arabia was offering for the Eurofighter and keep it to themselves. Now the whole Israel lobby is going to force us into selling the Raptor. Why can't Europe just ever keep their best weapons to themselves? If they didn't sell the Typhoon to S.A. we wouldn't have to sell the F-22 to Israel. How can it be that the countries of NATO are basically forcing each other to sell weapons that shouldn't be exported? We should be keeping them safe in our own hands. Hell, this is absolutely absurd and truly baffles me.

Hold on a minute. The US has sold to Saudi:

F-15C/D/S - the US's premier fighter aircraft at the time of sale.
E-3A AWACS - back in 1981 and today, still the World's premier AWACS.
RE-3A/B - ELINT platforms of RC-135 class that NATO doesn't even have.
AIM-9X - The US's top SR-AAM.
AIM-120C - The bench-mark of the world's MR-AAM systems.
(Not to mention JDAM and JASSM on the way)

M1-A2S Abrahms - a variant of the US's premier MBT.
M2 Bradley - the US's current standard AIFV.
Stinger MANPADS - Hope the Saudis know where they all are.
Patriot - As above.

Europe comes a distant second to supplying their premier kit to Saudi Arabia. Would you not agree?

[merocaine]

Wearing my company hat, delivering Typhoon to Saudi was always about more than just profit. It is vital for numerous reasons.

Avoiding the Governmental, political and strategic reasons involved in the sale, from a purely industrial stand point Typhoon secures at least 5,000 UK jobs directly and some analysts reckon another 20,000 UK jobs indirectly (not to mention many thousands more with regards our Eurofighter partners). For the UK and European Aerospace industry, Typhoon's importance can be measured in terms of employment alone.

In terms of profit, with maintenance contracts alone over the lifecycle included, the deal could reach a figure of 30 Billion GBP+ No FTSE 100 company could turn their nose up at that.

Finally, the Saudi invetsment in Typhoon will allow further development of the platform to increase its capabilities. Again, for Europe's Aerospace industry this is vital as we compete in a market dominated by the US giants, the never-ending list of Flanker variants coming out of Sukhoi and the rapidly evolving Chinese and Indian aerospace industries.

I could go on for a while...


something tells me you've delivered this speech before :D

This is neither the time of the place to debate this, although i believe those points are debatable.

@ Ryttare
Irish by the way, horrified bystander!

[Brandon]

Hold on a minute. The US has sold to Saudi:

F-15C/D/S - the US's premier fighter aircraft at the time of sale.
E-3A AWACS - back in 1981 and today, still the World's premier AWACS.
RE-3A/B - ELINT platforms of RC-135 class that NATO doesn't even have.
AIM-9X - The US's top SR-AAM.
AIM-120C - The bench-mark of the world's MR-AAM systems.
(Not to mention JDAM and JASSM on the way)

M1-A2S Abrahms - a variant of the US's premier MBT.
M2 Bradley - the US's current standard AIFV.
Stinger MANPADS - Hope the Saudis know where they all are.
Patriot - As above.

Europe comes a distant second to supplying their premier kit to Saudi Arabia. Would you not agree?

Yes. I understand we shouldn't have sold many of these weapons to S.A., but we've learned. We aren't going to export the F-22 even to our closes allies, which IMO is a good thing. Europe (especially UK) is still selling and upgrading their top weapons systems to Saudi Arabia-Eurofighter, Tornado. While we did sell the F-15, we aren't going to sell the Raptor.

[Alpha Epsilon]

But the reason why the USA does not want to sell the F22 is not strategic reasons but because they fear countries will copy their technology, it has little to do with the reasons you cite, on the other hand the USA is selling F35s to Israel, so you might as well say the UK has to sell Eurofighters to Saudi-Arabia to keep the balance of power there. ;)

[swerve]

Yes. I understand we shouldn't have sold many of these weapons to S.A., but we've learned. We aren't going to export the F-22 even to our closes allies, which IMO is a good thing. Europe (especially UK) is still selling and upgrading their top weapons systems to Saudi Arabia-Eurofighter, Tornado. While we did sell the F-15, we aren't going to sell the Raptor.

When the French were trying to sell more Mirage 2000s to the UAE, you countered them with F-16s upgraded with radars better than US fighters had at the time, & offered all your latest air-launched weapons to sweeten the deal. When did this sudden conversion come about?

Frankly, my taurine faeces meter is registering something here. Not selling the F-22 is nothing to do with keeping down the level of technology of potentially unstable countries. If so, why not sell it to your closest allies? Stable, friendly countries. None of your arguments against exporting weapons apply to them. But on the contrary, you're trying to restrict the ability of those allies even to support the F-35s they intend to buy from you.

[Ryttare]

Yes. I understand we shouldn't have sold many of these weapons to S.A., but we've learned. We aren't going to export the F-22 even to our closes allies, which IMO is a good thing. Europe (especially UK) is still selling and upgrading their top weapons systems to Saudi Arabia-Eurofighter, Tornado. While we did sell the F-15, we aren't going to sell the Raptor.

Are you really sure you wont sell F-22 to anyone? It's what is said now, but it can be changed quite easily. As Swerve said, there is something fishy here, why not sell it even to your closest allies? My suspicion is that the reason behind this is not to prevent unstable dictatorships from getting hitech weapons. More probable is that the reason is to promote the sales of F-35.

[Brandon]

Are you really sure you wont sell F-22 to anyone? It's what is said now, but it can be changed quite easily. As Swerve said, there is something fishy here, why not sell it even to your closest allies? My suspicion is that the reason behind this is not to prevent unstable dictatorships from getting hitech weapons. More probable is that the reason is to promote the sales of F-35.

Have you not heard the term "keep the best for yourself." It doesn't matter who it is you're selling to, a country should ALWAYS keep their most advanced weapons systems to themselves. This is why we (or Russia for that matter) don't export our strategic bombers or why no nation exports nuclear submarines. The thing with fighter aircraft though is that some nations can afford the best and we just can't say no because of how much money is involved. I really hope that we (both U.S. and EU) have some sort of secret aircraft. The US probably does at Groom Lake, but I don't know about what EU nations have kept secret.

[Ryttare]

Have you not heard the term "keep the best for yourself." It doesn't matter who it is you're selling to, a country should ALWAYS keep their most advanced weapons systems to themselves. This is why we (or Russia for that matter) don't export our strategic bombers or why no nation exports nuclear submarines. The thing with fighter aircraft though is that some nations can afford the best and we just can't say no because of how much money is involved.

Aws Izzy1 and Swerve pointed out USA has a track record of selling very advanced weapons to non democratic countries, even sometimes more advanced than is available to your own armed forces. So I don't buy this holier than you attitude when you say you don't sell F-22 even to your closest allied.


I really hope that we (both U.S. and EU) have some sort of secret aircraft. The US probably does at Groom Lake, but I don't know about what EU nations have kept secret.

The cold war is over and I don't belive even USA has any secret aircraft today. Europe has never had any secret aircraft and I don't belive that has changed.
Once the swedish datalinks in Draken and Viggen were kept as national secrets and there might be similar secrets today but i actually doubt it.

[swerve]

...The cold war is over and I don't belive even USA has any secret aircraft today. Europe has never had any secret aircraft and I don't belive that has changed. ...



Europe has had aircraft which were secret until after they flew, though not operational secret aircraft.

The W. German Lampyridae project (cancelled before it flew - Cold War over, & all that) was secret even from its allies for some time. The USA was prompted to reveal the F-117 to W. Germany when the Germans showed them Lampyridae, which used the same stealth principles. IIRC, the Germans showed it to the British, who'd not long before been shown F-117, & we said - "Errr - you might want to let the Americans know about this. They may have something they'd like to discuss with you". :)

The UK was developing stealthy UAVs recently. Didn't reveal them until they'd been flying for a while. The secret Replica project in the 1990s (not revealed for several years) for a stealthy fighter got the UK into JSF on the ground floor, as it convinced the USA that we could build our own equivalent, & might sign up some of the other potential JSF partners & do so if they didn't give us privileged access to JSF. Much good that did us, when the "privileged access" turned out to mean less than was promised.

[Izzy1]

The UK was developing stealthy UAVs recently. Didn't reveal them until they'd been flying for a while. The secret Replica project in the 1990s (not revealed for several years) for a stealthy fighter got the UK into JSF on the ground floor, as it convinced the USA that we could build our own equivalent, & might sign up some of the other potential JSF partners & do so if they didn't give us privileged access to JSF. Much good that did us, when the "privileged access" turned out to mean less than was promised.

Swerve is not wrong;

REPLICA got the UK the JSF/JCA contract - the Lockheed's XF-35 design mirrored the REPLICA's top-hull protortype. It fit like a glove.

Let the doubters, decide.

[spoiled_ksa]

Hi all,

I think every country has the right to buy the best planes to defend its territory.

This deal will bring a lot to Saudi: 10000 jobs + assembly plant for Typhoon + advanced Training & Technology Transfer.

For the record, Saudi Arabia has never attacked other countries. ;)

[eaf-f16]

Hi all,

I think every country has the right to buy the best planes to defend its territory.

This deal will bring a lot to Saudi: 10000 jobs + assembly plant for Typhoon + advanced Training & Technology Transfer.

For the record, Saudi Arabia has never attacked other countries. ;)

That's not entirely true. They participated in GW1.

[Izzy1]

That's not entirely true. They participated in GW1.

Here we go again eaf-f16.

Your completely wrong.

Yes Saudi did particpate in GW1 in response to Iraqi aggression against an ally in Kuwait and then Iraq moved onto Saudi territory at Al Khafji.

Saudi did not provoke an attack on anyone - it responded with its full military and diplomatic capability after being attacked and won.

I would expect the same response if Egypt were the case.

[eaf-f16]

Here we go again eaf-f16.

Your completely wrong.

Yes Saudi did participate in GW1 in response to Iraqi aggression against an ally in Kuwait and then Iraq moved onto Saudi territory at Al Khafji.

Saudi did not provoke an attack on anyone - it responded with its full military and diplomatic capability after being attacked and won.

I would expect the same response if Egypt were the case.

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to accuse Saudi of "attacking" any country. Just saying they did participate in conflicts (even if out of self-defense or in the aid of an ally which was the case in GW1). That's why I said "That's not entirely true."

And Egypt did participate in GW1 so obviously yes the they would respond in the same way if they were in that position. What's your point?

[Izzy1]

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't trying to accuse Saudi of "attacking" any country. Just saying they did participate in conflicts (even if out of self-defense or in the aid of an ally which was the case in GW1). That's why I said "That's not entirely true."

And Egypt did participate in GW1 so obviously yes the they would respond in the same way if they were in that position. What's your point exactly?

Fair enough eaf-f16, Good. Then would you agree, Saudi has never attacked another country, acted only ever in her self-defence and that your original one-line remark within the context of this discussion was wrong?

Saudi has never attacked another country.

[eaf-f16]

Fair enough eaf-f16, Good. Then would you agree, Saudi has never attacked another country, acted only ever in her self-defence and that your original one-line remark within the context of this discussion was wrong?

Saudi has never attacked another country.

Yes, that's true. Saudi Arabia has so far only acted in self-defense but it has participated in conflict. Which is what I meant to say in the first place.

[Izzy1]

Yes, that's true. Saudi Arabia has so far only acted in self-defense but it has participated in conflict. Which is what I meant to say in the first place.

Saudi has not struck a neighbour in 100 years.

PM me if you view othterwise.

[eaf-f16]

Saudi has not struck a neighbour in 100 years.

PM me if you view othterwise.

Where did I say that Saudi Arabia has struck its neighbors? All I meant to say was Saudi has participated in conflict before.

[Izzy1]

That's not entirely true. They participated in GW1.

We defended. They lost. RSAF did its duty eaf-f16. Granted, you got your words wrong. Again. Leave it at that, last time I checked, this thread was about Eurofighter. End of story.

[kato]

Saudi has not struck a neighbour in 100 years.

Mmm.
Yemen - 1932, 1962, 1995, 1998?
Ottoman Empire - 1913?
Kingdom of Hejaz - 1925?
Oman - 1952, 1955?

"Striking" is such a relative term. And I'm even willing to discard the initial Ishkwan campaigns completely.

[merocaine]

Mmm.
Yemen - 1932, 1962, 1995, 1998?
Ottoman Empire - 1913?
Kingdom of Hejaz - 1925?
Oman - 1952, 1955?

"Striking" is such a relative term. And I'm even willing to discard the initial Ishkwan campaigns completely

Those peace loving Saudi's have also provided the funding for numerous rebel groups, terrorists, insurgents ect.....as well as shipping off there fine young men as fighters with the aid of the goverment.

[eaf-f16]

Mmm.
Yemen - 1932, 1962, 1995, 1998?
Ottoman Empire - 1913?
Kingdom of Hejaz - 1925?
Oman - 1952, 1955?

"Striking" is such a relative term. And I'm even willing to discard the initial Ishkwan campaigns completely.

*whispers*

Shhhhh. Don't let Izzy1 know.;)


:onfloorl:


I was going to mention Yemen too but I didn't know exactly what happened there. All I know was that Egypt was directly involved at one point but I wasn't sure if the Saudis were.

[KiwiRob]

Have you not heard the term "keep the best for yourself." It doesn't matter who it is you're selling to, a country should ALWAYS keep their most advanced weapons systems to themselves. This is why we (or Russia for that matter) don't export our strategic bombers or why no nation exports nuclear submarines.

Isn't Russia selling or leasing two nuclear attack subs to India? Most people also believe that Japan will eventually gain access to the F22.

[Waylander]

And who are these people?

[KiwiRob]

It's been speculated on in this forum, airliners.net, flight international, if the US is going to give it to anyone I would suspect Japan is the only country who wants it that can afford it.

[Waylander]

Yeah, speculations.
Do you have anything else than that?
Because right now the US made clear that it is not going to export the F-22 to anyone.

I agree that IF the F-22 gets exported Japan would be one of the most possible buyers but so far nobody is going to get the F-22.

And I don't see any of the guys here which have a lot of knowledge about the world of planes (That excludes me) seeing the F-22 with the rising sun on it anytime soon.

[swerve]

...
"Striking" is such a relative term. And I'm even willing to discard the initial Ishkwan campaigns completely.

Why? The Ikhwan were founded by Ibn Saud specifically in order to provide him with an army, & their initial campaigns (Jabal Shammar, Asir, Hejaz) were ordered by him - though they did have a habit of exceeding orders, e.g. at Taif, which hinted at what was to come.

Even the most pro-Saudi view imaginable (see below) can't pretend that the Saudis didn't have a habit of invading & conquering neighbours, up to about 75 years ago -
http://www.ibnsaud.info/main/010.htm

And that's enough digression from me. Back to the topic!

[Scorpion82]

BTW is delivery of the first Saudi Typhoon still planned for 2008? I read that the first two are in final assembly.