Syria says repulses Israeli jets

[XaNDeR]

Syrian air defences went into action on Thursday to force out Israeli jets which had entered Syrian airspace, the official Syrian news agency SANA said.

"Our air defence forces repulsed some enemy Israeli aircraft which had penetrated Syrian air space, forcing them to leave, without causing human or material loss," the agency said.

Syria and Israel remain technically at a state of war, and peace talks broke down in 2000 over the fate of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights.







http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070906113132.yix1hoao&cat=null

[radiosilence]

Seems like the Israeli plane/s were on a reconnaissance mission when they were detected by Syrian air defenses and were forced to drop their bombs and extra fuel tanks to get out of range of the Syrian SAMs and to increase the aircraft's Maneuverability/performance.

[SaudiArabian]

Air Defense Units Confront Israeli Aircrafts over Syrian airspace forcing them to Leave
Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 04:15 PM

DAMASCUS, (SANA): Syrian Military spokesman stated Thursday that the Israeli enemy aircrafts infiltrated into the Syrian airspace overnight Thursday through the northern border, coming from the Mediterranean heading towards the eastern -northern region, breaking the sound barrier.

"Air defense units confronted them and forced them to leave after they drooped some ammunition in deserted areas without causing any human or material damage," the Military spokesman said.

The military spokesman added that "the Syrian Arab Republic warns the Israeli enemy government against this flagrant aggressive act, and retains the right to respond in an appropriate way."

Thawra- Ghossoun

Syrian Arab News Agency , SANA (http://www.sana.org/eng/21/2007/09/06/137956.htm)

[highnndry]

Seems like the Israeli plane/s were on a reconnaissance mission when they were detected by Syrian air defenses and were forced to drop their bombs and extra fuel tanks to get out of range of the Syrian SAMs and to increase the aircraft's Maneuverability/performance.

Why would they carry bombs in a reconnaissance mission? I can understand them carrying air to air missiles, but bombs? I don't understand why Syria doesn't engage them with their migs, may be they are scared :p: .

[AntiBond007]

Why would they carry bombs in a reconnaissance mission? I can understand them carrying air to air missiles, but bombs? I don't understand why Syria doesn't engage them with their migs, may be they are scared :p: .

First, I'm not sure how true the story is, after all its all coming from Syrian sources. But assuming it is true, what does "repulse" mean? It means that they fired and missed the plane. Also, how the hell did Israel get all the way into Syrian space with such sophisticated Russian defence systems? They should have detected the plane long before it got into their air space (if it ever did). So a) this is made up, b) Syrians are still incompotent, because with the systems they have, a plane should be detected long before it enters their air space.

[SaudiArabian]

First, I'm not sure how true the story is, after all its all coming from Syrian sources. But assuming it is true, what does "repulse" mean? It means that they fired and missed the plane. Also, how the hell did Israel get all the way into Syrian space with such sophisticated Russian defence systems? They should have detected the plane long before it got into their air space (if it ever did). So a) this is made up, b) Syrians are still incompotent, because with the systems they have, a plane should be detected long before it enters their air space.

the Syrian air defenses are weak. last time i was there was 4 years ago and i went to a place where you can see the Syria-Lebanon-israel borders meet together. there were many SAM missiles (1 missile on 1 launcher stationed on the top of the hills and mountains ; i couldn't identify it that time but i knew it was too old).

the problem isn't ever with the staff. they were on high readiness and high morale but its the lack of advanced systems that makes them weak and too exposed

if they have sophisticated Russian-made air defense systems then they are too few and can't cover most of the Syrian airspace

[radiosilence]

But assuming it is true, what does "repulse" mean?
repulse- To drive back; repel ;)
Anyways the planes left in a hurry, according to reports they had to dump their extra fuel tanks and ammo. This incident occurred close the Turkish border.

[Grand Danois]

If it happened, it looks like a ferret run to me. The fighter is unlikely to have carried bombs, but that it jettisoned its external tanks when dashing away sounds probable.

[AntiBond007]

repulse- To drive back; repel ;)
Anyways the planes left in a hurry according to reports they had to dump their extra fuel tanks and ammo. This incident occurred close the Turkish border.

Hehe, "repulse" is just a facesaving term, if you can't down anything (or show much), just use the term "repulse"... kind of like the Iraqi air defence systems in 1991 always repulsed the Americans.

Secondly, there were numerous reports of Syrian obtaining advanced Russian defence systems (Pantsyr, TOR M-1 for Iran etc), where only a few can protect a large amount of land, so its not like 4 years ago. That, that leads me to question the whole incident.

[radiosilence]

Hehe, "repulse" is just a facesaving term, if you can't down anything (or show much), just use the term "repulse"...
Maybe but they were in a rush to leave since reportedly they dump their extra tanks and ammo.

Secondly, there were numerous reports of Syrian obtaining advanced Russian defence systems (Pantsyr, TOR M-1 for Iran etc), where only a few can protect a large amount of land, so its not like 4 years ago. So, that leads me to question the whole incident
Well its getting a lot of play in the Israeli press and the higher-ups are not denying it. They are saying no comment .

[AntiBond007]

Maybe but they were in a rush to leave since reportedly they dump their extra tanks and ammo.


Well its getting a lot of play in the Israeli press and the higher-ups are not denying it. They are saying no comment .


Well, if if your fired on, dumping fuel tanks is normal procedure. But the fact the plane was all the way in Syrian territory before even a response, and a weak response at that (they didn't down it, but what? fired AA rounds at it I guess), doesn't really reinforce any faith in Syrian defences. Thus, I see the term, "repulse" as just facesaving, they couldn't down it, so the only thing they can really say is that, they forced it back...but its still pretty weak.

If this really happened, I can only suggest that maybe the Russian systems weren't operational, but really, if they were...not impressive.

[radiosilence]

Well, if if your fired on, dumping fuel tanks is normal procedure.
What about dumping ammo?

If this really happened, I can only suggest that maybe the Russian systems weren't operational
Perhaps but the fact that the IDF is not denying it makes me think that there is good possibility that they were intruding on Syrian territory.

[Grand Danois]

It wouldn't be the first time fuel tanks have been confused with bombs in reports.

[radiosilence]

It wouldn't be the first time fuel tanks have been confused with bombs in reports.

A Syrian official added: "They dropped bombs on an empty area while our air defences were firing heavily at them." Residents said they heard the sound of five planes or more above the Tal al-Abiad area on Syria's border with Turkey, about 100 miles north of the Syrian city of Rakka.......


Israel's army spokesman declined to comment on the report, saying he could not discuss military operations. .....

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2938965.ece

[Grand Danois]

Same article:

However, it is not the first such incident and there was speculation yesterday that the Israeli planes may have jettisoned their fuel tanks over the deserted area to make them more manoeuvrable, possibly after being targeted by Syrian forces.

Have the Tors & Buks been delivered to Syria yet?

[FutureTank]

Particularly if the Israeli planes took off from Negev, and approached low over the Mediterranean to emerge on the Syrian-Turkish border, they would need external tanks.
Probably the real operation was an exercise with Turkey to test their air defenses, and not those of Syria. Incidentally they also tested Syrian air defenses on the Turkish border.

Cheers
Greg

A Syrian official added: "They dropped bombs on an empty area while our air defences were firing heavily at them." Residents said they heard the sound of five planes or more above the Tal al-Abiad area on Syria's border with Turkey, about 100 miles north of the Syrian city of Rakka.......


Israel's army spokesman declined to comment on the report, saying he could not discuss military operations. .....

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2938965.ece

[radiosilence]

Particularly if the Israeli planes took off from Negev, and approached low over the Mediterranean to emerge on the Syrian-Turkish border, they would need external tanks.
Probably the real operation was an exercise with Turkey to test their air defenses, and not those of Syria. Incidentally they also tested Syrian air defenses on the Turkish border.

Cheers
Greg

Could it have been a mock bombing run to Iran? Thats probably the shortest route to Iran through northern Iraq.

[FutureTank]

Could it have been a mock bombing run to Iran? Thats probably the shortest route to Iran through northern Iraq.

Yes, it could since the Turkish air defense is probably on par with Iranian capability, while Syrian AD doesn't really represent many challenges to Israelis.
The test would be one of endurance.
Interestingly there were no reports from anyone else in the Med, since if this scenario is correct, the Israeli planes would have been in Cyprus radar range.
Cheers
Greg

[Marsh]

As was said, 'Repulse' is a fairly standard way of saying; 'They left, hence we must have made them leave' :)

As of mid 2006 Syria received KBM Strelets multiple launch units for Igla and Igla-S (SA-18). They also have S-200s (SA-5) together with Volga-M (SA-2) and S-125 Pechora (SA-3).

[merocaine]

Have the Tors & Buks been delivered to Syria yet?
7 Hours Ago 08:27 PM




The Pantsyr-S1E have begun to be delivered, I dont know if thier operational yet. This could be the Israelies testing the new defences ye no gathering a bit of intel on there effectiveness ;)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Rest_of_World/Russia_delivers_air_defence_units_to_Syria_Report/articleshow/2287976.cms

[FutureTank]

The Pantsyr-S1E have begun to be delivered, I dont know if thier operational yet. This could be the Israelies testing the new defences ye no gathering a bit of intel on there effectiveness ;)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Rest_of_World/Russia_delivers_air_defence_units_to_Syria_Report/articleshow/2287976.cms

Why would they be testing Syrian defenses on the Turkish border?

[merocaine]

Why would they be testing Syrian defenses on the Turkish border?

Perhaps this is where the new Syrian Sam's are training, they are new platforms after all.

[XaNDeR]

As was said, 'Repulse' is a fairly standard way of saying; 'They left, hence we must have made them leave' :)

As of mid 2006 Syria received KBM Strelets multiple launch units for Igla and Igla-S (SA-18). They also have S-200s (SA-5) together with Volga-M (SA-2) and S-125 Pechora (SA-3).

Those are pretty old systems , now if Syria had S-300 or a downgraded S-400 that would be different

[FutureTank]

Perhaps this is where the new Syrian Sam's are training, they are new platforms after all.

New AD systems are actually a political as well as a military weapon. Positioning of such weapons on the Israel's border, or even Iraq's would deliver a far more potent message then having them on the Turkish border.
In any case, the Syrian territory is large enough to enable introduction of new systems to be hidden more or less successfully in this initial period.

[AntiBond007]

Those are pretty old systems , now if Syria had S-300 or a downgraded S-400 that would be different

I don't even think they fired missiles at them, it sounds like it was just some AA rounds, just what I'm getting from reading. It sounds like the only reason they knew it was there because the sonic boom they heard. A radar would have detected the plane long before it was Syrian territory.

But I'm just wondering...how did they know it was Isreali? Afterall, it came from Turkey's airspace.

For its part, Israel is keeping mum for the most part, after all, why provide the enemy extra info, regardless if it was their plane, or not.

[Marsh]

No S-300s as yet. Not an impossibility; maybe from Russia via Belarus with love? :)

[wittmanace]

there was a site on the net with a download of gaps in air defence, and the map of syria showed a hole along this exact area. does anyone know which site im talking about? it was mapped with google earth, and tried to map all the known sam sites 'in the world'. it has north korean, russian, iranian, syrian, bulgarian, german, etc sam sites.....anyone know this site? it is the one with the downloadable program of all the sites listed.

[FutureTank]

I don't even think they fired missiles at them, it sounds like it was just some AA rounds, just what I'm getting from reading. It sounds like the only reason they knew it was there because the sonic boom they heard. A radar would have detected the plane long before it was Syrian territory.

But I'm just wondering...how did they know it was Isreali? Afterall, it came from Turkey's airspace.

For its part, Israel is keeping mum for the most part, after all, why provide the enemy extra info, regardless if it was their plane, or not.

Why assume it was a plane/s? Could have been a large RPV, or a helo.

[kato]

Why assume it was a plane/s? Could have been a large RPV, or a helo.

Syria (via CNN) says they broke the sound barrier.

[radiosilence]

I
But I'm just wondering...how did they know it was Isreali? Afterall, it came from Turkey's airspace.


Reportedly they came from the Mediterranean.

[Grand Danois]

The Pantsyr-S1E have begun to be delivered, I dont know if thier operational yet. This could be the Israelies testing the new defences ye no gathering a bit of intel on there effectiveness ;)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/Rest_of_World/Russia_delivers_air_defence_units_to_Syria_Report/articleshow/2287976.cms

That's what I was thinking. If they are deployed, it would suggest the Israelis are ferreting.

[contedicavour]

The most interesting thing indeed is that no Syrian MIG took off to intercept the Israeli jets. This says quite a bit about readiness status...

cheers

[scarey1989]

agreed

Mod: Scarey1989; you are suppose to contribute. Your agreeing or disagreeing only matters when it generates some information, question & discussion. If you havent got any than sit back, read & learn & don't bother with posting anything at all.

Besides that, oneliners & especially one word are not allowed on this forum. (Read the rules).

Next time be careful !

-SABRE

[merocaine]

agreed

If you have nothing to say...lurk.

forgiveness for the oneliner

[Micx]

The most interesting thing indeed is that no Syrian MIG took off to intercept the Israeli jets. This says quite a bit about readiness status...

cheers

you really think they could have done something?

[metro]

you really think they could have done something?

From the info I've "gathered," a number of F15s were "checking out" (surprise) Shihab-3s that were unloaded in Syria ("Iran" just got a lot closer to Israel and within range of all of Western Europe. However, if a missile is launched, was it Syria--It's an IRGC base...? If some are moved closer to Lebanon and others near the Turkish boarder who does one fire back at?

Along with that they wanted to see the Syrian/Russian/Syrian? port up close...
As noted, the USAF, IAF, and Turkey all train regularly over Turkey and when necessary/important, fly over Syria. In this case, Israel has its high-holidays next week I believe.
I'll keep asking though.

[contedicavour]

you really think they could have done something?

Provided both sides had the order not to start a new war, ie not to shoot first, it would at least have provided us with a good dogfighting scene ;)
Besides, if no BVR missiles had been shot, MIG29s with R73s can be quite dangerous even for Israeli F15I with the latest Pythons.

cheers

[funtz]

repulse, what could they mean by this?
May be they fired a sam which forced the IAF jets to drop the fuel tanks and head home, interception is out of the question not unless syria upgrades its Mig21,23,29.
I dont think the syrians will miss any opprtunity to fire some sam at IAF jets over them.

[SABRE]

repulse, what could they mean by this?
May be they fired a sam which forced the IAF jets to drop the fuel tanks and head home, interception is out of the question not unless syria upgrades its Mig21,23,29.
I dont think the syrians will miss any opprtunity to fire some sam at IAF jets over them.

Interception can do the job (that is with no engagement). Israel wouldn't want to shoot down Syrian Fighters in Syrian airspace. That would prove Israel as aggressor. They have been trying to save face since Lebanon Conflict, hence as soon as their radars see Syrian Fighters they fly back. If the Syrians had followed them into Israel than there would have been quite a different story.

SAMs cannot be side lined either ... wish Syrians had provided a bettwe picture.

[metro]

Provided both sides had the order not to start a new war, ie not to shoot first, it would at least have provided us with a good dogfighting scene ;)

Under those "orders" would you feel safe starting out a dogfight with the "enemy" on your tail:pope

Also, even if no weapon is fired, a MIG29 pilot could still collide with the F-15, taking the concept of "RAM," to its extreme, while proving the MIG29 does have a very sophisticated concept of "RAM.";)


Besides, if no BVR missiles had been shot, MIG29s with R73s can be quite dangerous even for Israeli F15I with the latest Pythons.
cheers

The Israelis are definitely not letting much out about this one, even the people I know over there who can't avoid talking anytime (you just have to ask twice) are playing dumb & dumber. The main reasons that I understand the flights were taken, were looking at knew IRGC base in Syria where Shihab3s are now located, and to take a close look at the Syrian/Russian port. I haven't really read European Press reports bout this incident, but have larger papers/media that might "typically be liked in Israel" been "quieter" on this? I'm just wondering because, Europe now has a big problem with these missiles in Syria?

I don't think any SAMS were launched, Israel dropped fuel tanks (with Israeli markings--just answering the question of how any1 knows they were Israeli planes--to show those could have been large bombs (i.e. sending a message). Since they broke the sound barrier (hello, we're here, if your radar isn't working), before turning and heading back, then dropping their tanks in Syria, it seems to me a recon mission was first, followed by the message that they, "can fly over w/o a problem" giving Assad something to think about.

A little while after this, Israel pulled off crazy abductions in GAZA of a couple top Hamas leaders. This while people were all looking north.
IMO, Israel showing it has the ability to strike anywhere in the region and trying to reassert deterrence through strength.

What's ironic, is that Hamas has been firing some heavy US arms from Gaza (the arms, were forgotten behind by Fatah) Apaches and the likes have all had to change the ways they operate.
This includes civilian airliners which now have had to alter their landing pattern into Ben-Gurion, because of weapons both in Gaza and W.Bank and sophisticated Comm, which is being used to interfere with antiquated airline transmissions (there have been a few very close call because of interference in response or lack of one) from certain commercial aircraft. There are only a few airlines I'd consider flying in on (one of our domestic carriers must use rookies on that route:crazy ), otherwise I'd rather try to land at the old Kai-Tek in a mild hurricane.

[Waylander]

But they found the droptanks in Turkey so it looks liken this was not a planned drop but that they had to get some more speed and agility to evade whatever the Syrians threw at them.

[swerve]

.... otherwise I'd rather try to land at the old Kai-Tek in a mild hurricane.

I once took off from Kai Tak in the tail-end of a typhoon. The elevated sections of the MTR were still closed, & the ferries not running. It was a right pain getting to the airport, & I can tell you Hong Kong cabbies know all about price gouging. The take off was not as bad as you might think. The buildings sheltered the runway from most of the wind.

[radiosilence]

The Israelis are definitely not letting much out about this one, even the people I know over there who can't avoid talking anytime (you just have to ask twice) are playing dumb & dumber.

The Israelis are keeping quiet because they dont want to say anything to agitate the Syrians anymore. Assad is facing pressure to retaliate from some in his inner circle. Both the Israeli and Syrian military are on full alert after this incident.

[F-15 Eagle]

Mod: F-15 Eagle you have already been banned & now you are back to your old tricks. Insulting other nation's/country's armed forces is not allowed here. I have already deleted one of your useless one liners, which also is not allowed on this forum. Why don't you go to a place with people of your own intellect - a Kindergarten might perhaps be a better place.

I am going to refer you for a ban again ... a month or perhaps for ever.

-SABRE

[Preceptor]

Ha this article is funny, the Syrians could not even repuse the Israeli jets even if they try let alone a war, beacuse their too scared to attack the Israeli's because they know if they do it will destroy their country.

And your evidence for that sweeping statement is?

It is fine to voice one's opinion on something, but when making statements, please provide supporting facts.

Also, the above statement treads close to crossing the lines of acceptable posts as covered in the http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php #'s 3, 8 and 15.

-Preceptor

[merocaine]

Here is a very interesting article from Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902928.html

What is Israel playing at? Reading between the lines a little and it looks like the Israelies were trying to provoke a reaction. Coupled with the fact that there not going into Gaza in retaliation for the rocket attack on the IDF training camp, and it starts looking ominous for Syria.

1/ Large scale military manouvers in the Golan Heights during the last few months

2/ Gradual disengagement from Gaza, refusal to engage in ground missions over the last month.

3/ Provoctive actions on the Syrian border, possible air attack on Syrian territory

4/ Repeated declearations that war is the last thing Israel wants.

If I was a Syrian Commander I would be feeling very nervous right now....

[funtz]

Here is a very interesting article from Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902928.html

What is Israel playing at? Reading between the lines a little and it looks like the Israelies were trying to provoke a reaction. Coupled with the fact that there not going into Gaza in retaliation for the rocket attack on the IDF training camp, and it starts looking ominous for Syria.

1/ Large scale military manouvers in the Golan Heights during the last few months

2/ Gradual disengagement from Gaza, refusal to engage in ground missions over the last month.

3/ Provoctive actions on the Syrian border, possible air attack on Syrian territory

4/ Repeated declearations that war is the last thing Israel wants.

If I was a Syrian Commander I would be feeling very nervous right now....

that article gave a lot of info about the whole event.
breaking the sound barrier over enemy space is not unheard of, especially when you want to project an advantage you have over someone.

Firing live missiles just to project dominance is new (at least i have never read about something like this), well then again it is Israel and they will bring a gun if you bring a knife.

anyhow, the article quoted syrian officials

"All countries in the region must show respect to all countries' sovereignty and avoid acts that lead to tensions," Babacan said. "Otherwise, tensions would be fueled, and peace and stability in the region might be harmed."

Well Syria is not exactly showering roses over Tel Aviv, and it is not exactly the France-Monaco border, however i think still the only reason Israel will fly over Syria might be to collect some electronic intelligence.

The days for photographic reconnaissance using jets for a nation like Israel are gone.

even that would not explain live missile fire, i mean of all the nations in this world, Israel is the last one who needs to show what it can do.

[eckherl]

It is being reported on CNN news that this was a deliberate attack by Israeli forces going after terrorist weapons being shipped from Syria and Iran. Israel seems to be satisfied with the results.

[wittmanace]

It is being reported on CNN news that this was a deliberate attack by Israeli forces going after terrorist weapons being shipped from Syria and Iran. Israel seems to be satisfied with the results.

the bbc has reported that there was an actual attack to stop arms going to hezbollah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6989961.stm

still, i have to say the israelis going after syria might not be something america wants right now, as a question of giving evidence as to whether there is greater stability in the region as a result of more us forces.

[eckherl]

the bbc has reported that there was an actual attack to stop arms going to hezbollah:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6989961.stm

still, i have to say the israelis going after syria might not be something america wants right now, as a question of giving evidence as to whether there is greater stability in the region as a result of more us forces.

I agree - all this will do for U.S and coalition forces is give them more things to worry about with Iran and Syria stepping up even more support for the terrorist cells in Iraq. With Syria making a formal complaint to Turkey it will be interesting to see what the Turkish response will be.

[wittmanace]

just as interesting will be whether iran makes any comment, as it was iranian military hardware allegedly. one wonders if syrias response is to increase arms flow into lebanon? it is curious that syrias version does not mention the actual attack, just the entry into syrian airspace. iranian military hardware in syria is not something to hide, given it was in their last (?) agreement, signed a year ago or so, and openly so.

[radiosilence]

just as interesting will be whether iran makes any comment, as it was iranian military hardware allegedly
They have condemed the Israeli air strike. Here are two quotes (http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Gulf%2C+Middle+East+%26+Africa&month=September2007&file=World_News2007090834543.xml) foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini as saying: “This shameful and provocative act aims at carrying the crises and internal problems outside the (Israeli) frontiers and creating insecurity in the region.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3447223,00.html
"Based on discussions at the Organization of the Islamic Conference, an attack against any Muslim country amount to an attack against all Muslim countries … That's a legitimate right," said Gholam Hussein Elham when asked whether Iran will defend Syria if it were attacked by Israel. (Dudi Cohen)

It is curious that syrias version does not mention the actual attack, just the entry into syrian airspace.
Its was a calculated move not to mention it for obvious reasons.

[mysterious]

Israel is provoking a war with such acts. If Syria responds or if acts such as these escalate in to a much bigger regional crisis, there would be no excuses left for Israel to appear a victim & crying foul over Hezbollah or for any other reasons then, would not count for much.

[Waylander]

There was no war after they buzzed the presidents palace...

And if it was without good reason is doubtfull.

If they really interdicted weapons transports I cannot blame them for it. The UNIFIL mission is nearly useless in this aspect.
Where do you think alle the weapons for Hez are coming from?

[mysterious]

That doesn't give Israel the license to illegally break in to sovereign airspace of another country. Apart from all its law defying 'style', such acts are deemed hostile and could easily be used as excuse by Syria, Iran & Hezbollah to reaffirm their positions as being at the mercy of the 'Israeli aggressors'. That last part, does not help Israel's already murky reputation/standing in the region.

[Waylander]

Letting weapons shipments freely flow into the Libanon isn't helping them either...

And arming Hezbollah to the teeth is for sure something which could also be interpreted as hostile.

[mysterious]

Which brings us back to the whole historical issue at hand. Hezbollah is a reaction. The action that set forth such reaction needs to be diagnosed & solved.

[Waylander]

And what would solve the problem in your eyes?
Remove Israel?

What would be a good solution to the problem of weapons shipments?
Obviously UNIFIL is not able (Or better doesn't want to risk that much) to stop weapons from flowing into Libanon.
Syria and Iran go on shipping these weapons.

So what should Israel do?

[FutureTank]

Here is a very interesting article from Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/902928.html

What is Israel playing at? Reading between the lines a little ...

Actually, also reading the lines left unfinished
European diplomats quoted Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem as saying Monday that the IAF warplanes that violated Syria's airspace fired missiles at targets on the ground, but did not cause any damage.

...did not cause any damage to Syrian equipment...but probably caused a lot of damage to equipment which still belonged to someone else?

Israelis are rarely happy about a result of an operation that causes no damage :-)

Cheers
Greg

[metro]

Letting weapons shipments freely flow into the Libanon isn't helping them either...

And arming Hezbollah to the teeth is for sure something which could also be interpreted as hostile.

I agree. One of UNIFILS was to keep Hizbollah from rearming. For whatever reason, it failed. I don't blame/envy the soldiers on the ground as mandate is as strong s the paper it's written other men working in their nice US high rise have other concerns.

UNILFIL has been able to collect a lot of intel especially from ships in the area (which has been truly valuable).

One should note, that for an "unknown reason," the only people making noise about this, is NK, Iran, Syria, and Hizbollah (Russia has tried to distance itself & has told the others to "stay quiet."

The rest of the Arab world put out press reports, however they were written in the same way as when King Abdullah tacitly gave the Arab
people/state the "right" to not get on the bandwagon of the three, noted: /Iran/Syria/Hizbollah.

This was huge as Syria, Hizbollah, Hamas, always felt that they had endless friends with oil, who could/would protect them in one way or another, no matter what they did.

Now, everything is quiet about what the IAF did (almost completely) in the Arab Press!?! A strong message was sent in two "unexpected" ways: first the IAF flying around in Syria, and the reaction AKA. "Arab message".

Also, we all know the UN's resolutions keep them busy. There are so many, but Israel has its own book which says "Caution do not lift w/o a crane";)

As we know personally, we have are own innate bias', and so do all the large media houses. But almost none have been relatively "loud/up-in-arms" about the IAF flights.

Looking at Europe's leaders and papers, Israelis, for the most part feel "Any European story is a good story as long as it will make Israel look bad.":rel ;) Yet, there has been a far more muted tone now, not slanted--not something that should be dismissed by someone observant.

US media has been doing the same, (okay, I know you want to 'add something here':D --but don't hate, just debate) didn't even put the almost permanent "....but, Israel should show restraint" line in.

What this has done is almost completely isolated Syria, by the world acting like "Syria's game is over, if they decide to break ties w/Iran/Hizbollah, we can talk. Otherwise they're on there own and what happens, happens."

But about the actual reasons for the flights:
1)Syria wasn't just importing junk or the regular arms to Syria, they were actually "importing/unloading" the Shihab 3 missile. As I mentioned before, this is at/near an IRGC base in Syria that is "owned" by Iran.

2)These missiles can hit all of Europe from Syria. They can also carry whatever. The US and SA has been trying to make Syria collapse for a long time, as it can be argued that pulling Syria out of Iran's arms, could be the Key to Iran's planning.

If the IAF destroyed these imports, the reason for political siLence from everywhere around the world, speaks volumes.

One might notice/read that many of the "most trusted" people in Iran, were relieved of their duties. As someone else noted, Assad is sitting on the fence. Hamas, is firing 10-20 Kassams/day and getting little reaction* from Israel showing Hamas to be weak and not dependable. *This may not stay true after Hamas hit a IDF Base.

Putting it all together for the IAF flight:
1)Destroy the missiles that were most likely tracked all the way, and the significance of that missile.
2)Recon (perhaps of port Syrian/Russian)
3)Test the Syrian MD.
4)Finally (deterrence), make a statement with a big bang.

The IAF, said, "Hello (we were here)! Goodbye (we're leaving alone, as nobody wanted to meet me) and "Peace." Which can be summed up in one word: Shalom:cheers

As always, JMHO!

[merocaine]

Hmmmm were really disappearing down the rabbit hole here....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html

Nuclear material, North Korea, Iranian training bases, hezzbullah arms shipments...

Does anyone else feel like there is a massive disinformation campain going on?

Frankly the arms shipment story sounds like rubbish, arms shipments into Lebanon are a daily occurance, why conduct an airstrike now and not before?
Why for the sake of a few easliy replaceable missles risk war with Syria? It doesent make sence.

The Korean Nuclear material aso sounds like a smoke screen.

The Iranian operating base sounds a little more plasible, perhaps the Iranians were moving in medium range missiles.....

As to what really happened :unknown

[wittmanace]

Hmmmm were really disappearing down the rabbit hole here....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html

Nuclear material, North Korea, Iranian training bases, hezzbullah arms shipments...

Does anyone else feel like there is a massive disinformation campain going on?

Frankly the arms shipment story sounds like rubbish, arms shipments into Lebanon are a daily occurance, why conduct an airstrike now and not before?
Why for the sake of a few easliy replaceable missles risk war with Syria? It doesent make sence.

The Korean Nuclear material aso sounds like a smoke screen.

The Iranian operating base sounds a little more plasible, perhaps the Iranians were moving in medium range missiles.....

As to what really happened :unknown

i agree, the idea that there is so little news about syria "having nuclear material" and it being targeted is so unlikely. this wouldnt be the top news story? not likely, at all.

i agree on the aspect of the arms shipments, for the reson you mentioned. there seems to be something else going on....if it is explained in the way it has been, it seems it must be pretty big. north korean nuclear material showing up elsewhere...thatd be big big news if it were the case.

i wondeer what the real target was? perhaps from russia's silence we should guess there is something russia doesnt want to push out there? russian bought equipment being shipped?

perhaps the target was an individual, but the strikes actually failed their intended target? meshal or nasrallah intended targets?

[chunga1]

seems like they were targeting radar instalations imo...why else risk war....paving the way into iran

[Falstaff]

Today on CNN they said that the Israelis intended to send a clear message to Iran saying look, we can do things like that. That's why they didn't bother to even comment the incident.

[chunga1]

this is coming off very low key. i would have thought it would play much bigger

[radiosilence]

Iran a has a better air defence system than Syria. I think there is a misinformation campaign going on here.

[Grand Danois]

Iran a has a better air defence system than Syria. I think there is a misinformation campaign going on here.

Actually not. In terms of integration, overlap, density and competence, Syrias is much more capable. Irans air defences are essentially centered on point defence.

This is without taking the fighter element into account.

[radiosilence]

Actually not. In terms of integration, overlap, density and competence, Syrias is much more capable. Irans air defences are essentially centered on point defence.

This is without taking the fighter element into account.

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't have AFAIK.

[Grand Danois]

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't as far i know.

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.

[radiosilence]

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.

The source added Iran has also disclosed plans to acquire at least 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems and is currently now exploring potential options to realise this. He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

janes (http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw070522_1_n.shtml)

Iran procured an unidentified number of S-300PMU-1 missiles from Russia

missilethreat (http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.50/system_detail.asp)

[Grand Danois]

janes (http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw070522_1_n.shtml)



missilethreat (http://www.missilethreat.com/missiledefensesystems/id.50/system_detail.asp)

I know of these. The idea stems from circular reference - the identification of said volume search radars - which has lead to the notion that the entire komplex has been acquired. Say it enough times and it becomes internet (or rumour) truth.

The reason why Iran is getting TORs and perhaps Pantsirs is analoguous to the Japanese asking the US Govt for Raptors. The reply they get is the USG will be happy to supply a fifth gen fighter, i.e. the JSF.

Iran has requested S-300 and is getting...

[radiosilence]

I know of these. The idea stems from circular reference - the identification of said volume search radars - which has lead to the notion that the entire komplex has been acquired. Say it enough times and it becomes internet (or rumour) truth.

The reason why Iran is getting TORs and perhaps Pantsirs is analoguous to the Japanese asking the US Govt for Raptors. The reply is that the USG will be happy to supply a fifth gen fighter, i.e. the JSF.

Iran has requested S-300 and is getting...


Janes and missilethreat are respected sources to be easily disregarded.

[Grand Danois]

Janes and missilethreat are respected sources.

Missilethreat has this as its source: “Iran Builds Up With Russian Firepower,” Flight International, 18 August 1993.

All it takes is jitters over spotting said radars and extrapolating to the entire komplex.

Janes summarises what "a source" has said - they have not approved. Also, often meaning is lost in translation - radars associated with a komplex or the entire komplex. For instance a German think tanks misinterpretation of the (Soviet-)Russian concept of "near space" is now used as reference for the S-400s ability to do exoatmospheric BM intercepts.

There is no hard evidence of S-300 komplexes in Iran.

[radiosilence]

There is no hard evidence of S-300 komplexes in Iran.

Should i take your word when you haven't provided any substancial evidence that the Iranians don't have the S-300 or go with 2 respected sources?;)

[Grand Danois]

Should i take your word when you haven't provided any substancial evidence that the Iranians don't have the S-300 or go with respected 2 source?;)

Well, there aren't any reports that Western intelligence has spotted said komplexes in Iran.

The geopolitical situation tells you they have not acquired it. Russia ain't going to supply it.

There are no primary sources that says that komplexes has been transferred. The sources there are, are old, based on speculation, extrapolations. There have been no repeat reports, except circular references. Indicating the early reports were rubbish.

Basically, there is nothing to suggest that Iran has S-300 komplexes.

That is my input to this, you may disagree, but it's as good as it gets. :D

Btw, the respected sources both relayed information, and only one endorsed it, by accepting another article as fact. So Janes doesn't run counter to what I said, and MT is a victim of circular reference.

[radiosilence]

[QUOTE]Well, there aren't any reports that Western intelligence has spotted said komplexes in Iran
The "source" that janes is using could have been western intelligence. Janes have a lot of contacts within Western intelligence agencies.

The geopolitical situation tells you they have not acquired it. Russia ain't going to supply it.
Missilethreat reported that Iran procured S-300 in 1993.

[Grand Danois]

[quote=Grand Danois;115388]
The "source" that janes is using could have been western intelligence. Janes have a lot of contacts within Western intelligence agencies.

Physically spotted, SIGINT, IMINT. Also, the source is close to the deal, i.e. involved:

A source close to the deal told Jane's that Russia has agreed to sell Damascus "some 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems", with initial deliveries set to begin later in 2007. Syria is understood to be receiving the Pantsyr-S1E equipped with the latest Roman I-Band fire control radar.

Western Intelligence supplying AD systems to Iran? :D

Missilethreat reported that Iran procured S-300 in 1993.

I have commented on MTs source. See above posts.

[radiosilence]

[quote=radiosilence;115395]

Physically spotted, SIGINT, IMINT. Also, the source is close to the deal, i.e. involved:

A source close to the deal told Jane's that Russia has agreed to sell Damascus "some 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems", with initial deliveries set to begin later in 2007. Syria is understood to be receiving the Pantsyr-S1E equipped with the latest Roman I-Band fire control radar.


Even better so its someone with intimate knowledge of the deal.

Btw, still waiting for your evidence that iranians haven't received the S-300 system.

[Grand Danois]

[quote=Grand Danois;115396]

Even better so its someone with intimate knowledge of the deal.

Btw, still waiting for your evidence that iranians haven't received the S-300 system.

I can't demonstrate that something hasn't taken place, but I can show, that there are no signs of it having taken place. What runs to the contrary can be dismissed. The trail of the wrongly interpreted information that leads to your claim can be shown.

You brought forward the claim that Iran has S-300. It is you who must demonstrate that they have it. So far you have not done so.

Argumentatively, it is I, who begs the question.

[radiosilence]

[quote=radiosilence;115400]



You brought forward the claim that Iran has S-300. It is you who must demonstrate that they have it. So far you have not done so.





Ok i will make it as clear as possible.

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't have AFAIK

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.


The source added Iran has also disclosed plans to acquire at least 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems and is currently now exploring potential options to realise this. He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

source:janes

Iran procured an unidentified number of S-300PMU-1 missiles from Russia

source: Missilethreat

So far i have provided evidence to my claim. You have tried to dismiss my sources but you have not provided any evidence except to take your word on it. Therefore it is you who have to provide evidence to back up your claim that Iran doesn't have S-300.

[Grand Danois]

[quote=Grand Danois;115402]

Ok i will make it as clear as possible.

So far i have provided evidence to my claim. You have tried to dismiss my sources but you have not provided any evidence except to take your word on it. Therefore it is you who have to provide evidence to back up your claim that Iran doesn't have S-300.

So all you have is the "word" of an unnamed Russian source, stating, off hand, that Iran has two complete copies of the S-300 komplex.

And with no indication of if the translation is correct, i.e. the journalist/analysts translation and extrapolation is true. Do you think this came verbatim out of the mouth of the source:

He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

It is not a direct quote. It is way down the hierarchy of information quality.

Remember, there is an additonal layer here on top of the quality of the source - the one who translate and interprets plus conveys what was said. Iran do have elements of the S-300.

So thin. And there is also zero corroborating evidence?

You don't need to take my "word" on it. Compare the two cases put forward and consider which is strongest.

[radiosilence]

[QUOTE]So all you have is the "word" of an unnamed Russian source, stating, off hand, that Iran has two complete copies of the S-300 komplex.
Speculation on your part. Where does it say unnamed Russian
source?

And with no indication of if the translation is correct, i.e. the journalist/analysts translation and extrapolation is true. Do you think this came verbatim out of the mouth of the source:
What makes you think the source doesn't speak english? What are you basing that on?

He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

It is not a direct quote. It is way down the hierarchy of information quality.
This is because the S-300 was acquire earlier and article was about
"Iran set to obtain Pantsyr via Syria"

So you don't any evidence?

[Grand Danois]

More speculation on your part. Any evidence?

Yes, read the artticle you provided. ;)

What makes you think the source doesn't speak english? What are you basing that on?

Simple. Read the article you provided. It is not a direct quote. It is interpreted information. And certainly not verbatim.

This is because the S-300 was acquire earlier and article about "Iran set to obtain Pantsyr via Syria"

This has no impact at all on what I said. And still not a direct quote. From an unknown source...

[radiosilence]

[QUOTE]Yes, read the artticle you provided. ;)
This is the article below, where does it say the source is Russian?
Iran set to obtain Pantsyr via Syria


Iran set to obtain Pantsyr via Syria

By Robin Hughes

Iran is set to acquire at least 10 96K6 Pantsyr-S1E self-propelled short-range gun and missile air-defence systems as a derivative of a major deal struck between Syria and Russia earlier this year.

A source close to the deal told Jane's that Russia has agreed to sell Damascus "some 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems", with initial deliveries set to begin later in 2007. Syria is understood to be receiving the Pantsyr-S1E equipped with the latest Roman I-Band fire control radar.

While the source noted that most of the Pantsyrs are earmarked for the Syrian Air Defence Command, "the end user for 10 of the systems is Tehran". These should reach Iran, via Syria, in late 2008, the source told Jane's.

According to the source, Iran will part finance the Syrian acquisition along with payment for its own 10 systems to recompense Damascus for its compliance in the deal.

Syria is understood to have signed a contract with Russia, with an estimated value of USD730 million, for the supply of the Pantsyr-S1E. While Tehran has indicated to Damascus the urgency of the requirement, the source said that the 10 systems to be transferred will not be taken from the first ones supplied to Syria but from later deliveries. The source added Iran has also disclosed plans to acquire at least 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems and is currently now exploring potential options to realise this. He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.
Syrian consent to enable Iran to procure the Pantsyr-S1E systems through Syria is an implementation of the military and technological co-operation mechanism stipulated in a strategic accord signed by both countries in November 2005.



http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw070522_1_n.shtml

Still waiting for your evidence.:D

[Grand Danois]

[quote=Grand Danois;115412]
This is the article below, where does it say the source is Russian?


http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jdw/jdw070522_1_n.shtml

Still waiting for your evidence.:D

I have commented on above article. The quality of the source for this is very weak. Also because of how it is presented.

If this is the quality of evidence you need, well, then you can believe anything.

Anyhow, there is no reason to continue this. I'll go have a look at this:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115398#post115398

It's more fun.

[radiosilence]

[quote=radiosilence;115414]



Anyhow, there is no reason to continue this. I'll go have a look at this:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=115398#post115398
It's more fun.


Nice video. ;)

[Grand Danois]

[quote=Grand Danois;115415]

Nice video. ;)

Yes. Interesting indeed.

Forgot one thing - just to explain. It need not been in Russian - misinterpretations may lie in differences in references and terminology, which is what I alluded to earlier with the "near space" example. I never said it was Russian originally, but it is "things lost in translation." ;)

[merocaine]

On the above great debate, do the Iranian armed forces have the S-300.

I've never heard this until now, never period.

It is not impossible that they have aquired the S-300, but since the Russians have declined to sell it to them unlightly.

[radiosilence]

I read articles concerning Iran acquiring the S-300 but never thought anything of it until i saw the Janes article.

[metro]

Hmmmm were really disappearing down the rabbit hole here....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html

Nuclear material, North Korea, Iranian training bases, hezzbullah arms shipments...

Does anyone else feel like there is a massive disinformation campain going on?

Unfortunately, I don't think it has anything to do with disinformation--well you left Russia out.;) If there's another, "You told us that they have X,Y, and Z! You lied to us, again..."! That wouldn't go across very well, if you know what I mean.
Iran has been trying to get their NK, knockoff, the Shihab-3 missile, moved west and as close as possible to Israel, African nations, and all of Europe as possible. It's est. range is around 2,500km and can carry any type of warhead. Iran wants to keep the missile under control of the IRGC as well. Thus, at least one IRGC base in Syria.


Frankly the arms shipment story sounds like rubbish, arms shipments into Lebanon are a daily occurance, why conduct an airstrike now and not before?
Why for the sake of a few easliy replaceable missles risk war with Syria? It doesent make sence.

As noted above, this isn't a Kaytusha (Hizbollah has more than enough of those. As you said, they're daily shipments down the normal roads).
The reason for taking the Missiles out now as well as hitting a "Facility," is so those two are not put together. It's a small first strike for the purposes of preemption, instead of giving Iran the possibility of that first strike, using WMDs. I don't think anyone doubts that Syria has had Chem/Bio weapons for a long time and while nobody talks much about that, however, introducing a delivery vehicle that can hit the entire ME, Europe, parts of N. America and so on, changes the game. Add the possibility of Nukes, and it's the end game.

Israel hasn't been the only country in the world tracking these things (obviously). When Israel does something in the ME, we all know the usual reaction, especially from neighbors. However, when the typical uproar in the ME and around the world is non-existent, there's a reason. The deafening silence, shows how significant the situation is/was.
The US actually publicly praised the strike instead of, "Israel can defend itself, but must show maximum restraint...", as have some other European countries. The most important thing we've seen/heard, is the reaction, or lack there of, from the other states in the region including Russia.

I'd imagine it's hard to make a case to the int'l community if you get caught red-handed. Syria's predicament. It's like going to the police and telling them somebody stole your drugs.

The one line from CNN (I believe) that caught my attention was the reporter's description of seeing, "a very large hole in the ground"! That made it sound to me as if something underground was hit.

Check out the "al-safir" (I believe that's the spelling) area/base in Syria. I'm just guessing, but my instinct is that the strikes took place right around there. I think www.globalsecurity.org is where I remember seeing several Satillite photos of the area a while back (I'm almost positive it was pre-google earth days). I'll look for a link...
Found it: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/al-safir.htm


The Iranian operating base sounds a little more plasible, perhaps the Iranians were moving in medium range missiles.....


Scuds and Fajr 5s are already in Syria/Lebanon in good numbers.

As for your other question about Iran or Syria having the S-300, AFAIK it's like the debate going in this thread.
One release says Iran already has "a couple" batteries deployed and Syria is having them delivered. Then, a release comes out from Russia, denying that they have sold the weapons, yet. But won't comment on further discussions.
Next, Russia "is furious" that the news got out that they "delivered the systems."
Around, and around, in circles.

My guess would be that Russia would "actually" be hesitant to sell any AD, because nothing Iran or Syria has will do much against the USAF, other than making it look like a poor system and hurt potential exports where there aren't potential conflicts.;)

Peace

[metro]

I read articles concerning Iran acquiring the S-300 but never thought anything of it until i saw the Janes article.

Yep, I feel the same way. It becomes difficult to know for sure because of articles like these:


Russia's Pantsyr air defense system delivered to Syria, paid for by Iran

MOSCOW — Russia is delivering an advanced surface-to-air missile system to Syria.
Officials said the state-owned arms export agency, Rosoboronexport, has been exporting the Pantsyr-S1E air defense system to Syria. They said deliveries began in 2007 and would continue over the next year.

Pantsyr-S1E air defense system
The Pantsyr deal was said to have been financed by Iran. Officials said Russia would export 50 Pantsyr systems to Damascus in a nearly $1 billion sale.
"The first part of the delivery to Syria has started," the Moscow-based Nezavissimaya Gazeta daily said on Aug. 17.

Nezavissimaya Gazeta quoted a state-owned military information agency that reported the delivery to Syria. Later, officials acknowledged that the first shipment of an unspecified number of Pantsyr-S1E had arrived in Syria.

In May 2007, the London-based Jane's Defence Weekly placed the number of Pantsyr systems allocated to Iran at 10. Russian sources said up to 14 air defense units would arrive in Iran.

Officials dismissed reports that the Pantsyr would be reexported by Syria to Iran. In 2006, Moscow was confronted by Israeli evidence that anti-tank and other weapons sold to Syria were delivered to Hizbullah and used during the 34-day war.

Produced by KBP, Pantsyr-S1, with an interception range of 12 kilometers, was developed for the United Arab Emirates, said to have ordered 50 such systems. The Pantsyr mobile battery contains 12 missiles as well as 30 mm guns capable of firing 700 rounds per minute.
Geostrategy-Direct, www.geostrategy-direct.com, August 29, 2007


-Iran finances major weapons buy from Russia for Syria


TEL AVIV — Iran effectively owns Syria's military and has paid at least $1.25 billion for a huge Syrian weapons order from Russia.
"Iran has, in effect, taken charge of Syria's military," an Israeli source said. "Iranian advisers work with the Syrian military to decide its requirements and combat doctrine."



Igla portable air defense missile system.
Israeli intelligence sources said Teheran has relayed to Russia $1.25 billion in 2007 for the sale of a range of air defense and anti-tank missile systems to Syria. The sources said the military systems ordered by Damascus were the most advanced developed by Russia.
The sources said Iran agreed to finance Syrian purchases of Russian defense systems in wake of the Israeli war with Hizbullah in mid-2006. During the 34-day war, Hizbullah, supplied by Iran and Syria, fired 4,500 rockets and missiles into Israel, which sparked a flight of about 350,000 civilians.

"The Iranians and Syrians agreed that a missile war should be the model for the next conflict," the source said. "The idea has been to provide Syria with massive firepower capability and establish a defense against Israeli aircraft."

Damascus has ordered the Pantsyr-S1E short-range air defense system, the Igla-S man-portable air defense system, the AT-14 anti-tank missile to bolster Syria's defenses. The Assad regime has also been financed by Iran to purchase the Iskander-E rocket, with a range of 280 kilometers, to fire massive salvos against Israeli civilian and military targets.

The sources said Russia delivered some of the systems to Syria in 2007. They said the bulk of the order would arrive by mid-2008 amid Syrian efforts to acquire such strategic platforms as the S-300 long-range air defense system.

Russia has also been contracted to overhaul the Syrian Air Force's combat fleet. The sources said this has enabled the resumption of the first significant Syrian air combat exercises in nearly a decade.

Geostrategy-Direct, www.geostrategy-direct.com, September 5, 2007

-This kind of stuff gets reported, than drops off the map. Then, it's reported again...

It's sort of like hearing, "The check's in the mail"!? :confused:

[merocaine]

@ metro

Two really detailed posts, and lots I was'ent aware of, esp about the Syrian base, cheers.

[FutureTank]

Just so we are clear what the argument is all about, the C-300 systems are fairly large. I would say that it is almost impossible to miss their delivery to Syria, or Iran. It is also almost impossible to miss them in a strike mission before they are operational.

The reports that Iran acquired two C-300 'complexes' are just speculations by people who don't know what they are talking about. The MINIMUM C-300 requirements for Iran are at least eight complexes, that is batteries, for deployment around Tehran and Isfahan. Currently the role is filled by the old C-200 batteries of which there are at least twelve around Tehran alone if I am not mistaken.

The 49 Panzyr systems would deploy in batteries of four to a battery of C-300s, so does it suggest that Syria is going to receive 12 batteries of C-300?! I highly doubt it.

Panzyr is also a low-to-medium altitude point defense system which has only just managed to achieve operational status after a decade of development. In essence it is a low cost, truck mounted version of the Tunguska SPAA. It is entirely possible that Iran may be supplied with the Panzyr systems since they can purchase similar, if less capable systems from the Chinese if they must.

In fact Iranians probably have the capability of combining some sort of SAM mounts with some sort of light AA cannon mounts on any number of heavy trucks to do fill the same cheap rear areas SPAA role capability if they try.

Of course the beauty of Panzyr's interfacing of command and targeting systems with the C-300 would not be there, but at least they can cover threats to about 15,000ft...maybe.

Clearly Israeli incursion did not encounter the Panzyr systems because these are not intended for the sort of work that would have required risking the lives of Israeli pilots just to prove that they can 'tap' Syrians on the shoulder.

If there was indeed an attempt to deliver C-300s, which I very much doubt, Russia would have been making a LOT of noise because destruction of such deliveries before handover would have meant destruction of Russian goods on Syrian territory, so it wasn't that.

It seems to me that the suggestion that Israelis were preventing the delivery of more missiles intended for Hizbullah was probably a correct one, and it is likely that the missiles came from either Iran, or North Korea, or both.

Cheers
Greg

[kams]

Juicy details of Israeli raid..WoW..

Israelis ‘blew apart Syrian nuclear cache (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece)

Too big an article to post in full. IAF planes dumbed ammo.....right on NoKo Nuclear materials. No wonder the Syrians didn't make too much noise.

[mickk]

Details are gradually being leaked about the events of september 6.

One report from the Jerusalem Post:

While the picture is still not completely clear, and has certainly not been confirmed by official Israeli or Syrian authorities, the story that is emerging in the foreign press is the stuff of legends.

Fighter jets, coming under air defense missiles, infiltrate an enemy country and bomb a nuclear facility that is being "lit up" for them by an elite commando unit operating behind enemy lines

It doesnt surprise me really, it was just a matter of time.

[Marsh]

My understanding is that the basis for the Hughes' article in Jane's (derived from the un-named sources) also included photographic evidence of positively-identified S-300 components in country. As to why Russian may have supplied these weapons, the suggestion has been that there were a carrot to push Tehran in to accepting Moscow's proposal that uranium for their nuclear project be refined in Russia. If this is true it appears to have failed.

All sources that I have seen talk of two S-300 'somethings', though I have seen different opinions of exactly to what this two refers.

[merocaine]

Sorry Kamms this article is absolute rubbish...

Juicy details of Israeli raid..WoW..

Israelis ‘blew apart Syrian nuclear cache

Too big an article to post in full. IAF planes dumbed ammo.....right on NoKo Nuclear materials. No wonder the Syrians didn't make too much noise.

This paper is well known to publish neocon wet dreams...;)

[metro]

Sorry Kamms this article is absolute rubbish...


What do you mean? Israel provided one (1) legit account of what went down--and it's here.;) Israel has kept a pretty tight lid on everything (believe u me, this is something that doesn't happen often, as someone always wants credit for a mission gone right!), but they decided to spill the beans here!

I'm just playing. A lot of what is put together is correct (though a good amount of time has passed to do homework).

One thing that is reinforced is that, Israel didn't just "do this alone" and then have some quick explaining to do. The point about IFF codes is a good one in that, Israel was given the, "okay." Meaning, Israel had to do some explaining ahead of time and/or there was no explaining to do as "more than one country" was watching things and knew exactly what was going on.

Also, right around the same time (maybe a day latter), Israel pulled off an even more impressive "raid" in Gaza. They managed to "abduct" two higher-ups of Hamas. Not easy to do in a "small neighborhood" where everybody knows everybody. If the account of how the air strike was done sounds "straight out of the movies," check out the Hamas abductions i.e. "the story" anyway. It was supposed to be done because of the Israeli Prisoner (Shalit spl?) being held in Gaza for a long time.



This paper is well known to publish neocon wet dreams...;)

Kind of :offtopic (IMO) Whether a person is a self-professed "neocon," or has the same published beside his name, is not indicative of the only type of person who dreams; but it is good to know the thoughts running through their heads are "good" thoughts.;)

ON BEING ASKED FOR A WAR POEM
An Irishman

THINK it better that in times like these
A poet's mouth be silent, for in truth
We have no gift to set a statesman right;
He has had enough of meddling who can please
A young girl in the indolence of her youth,
Or an old man upon a winter's night.

Even some of us Americans dabble in the words of the second best wordsmith in the English language (1. Eminem, 2. Yeats);) :cheers

[merocaine]

Glad you like WB;)

Smoke and mirrors my friend, nothing like a little misdirection!

[kams]

Sorry Kamms this article is absolute rubbish...



This paper is well known to publish neocon wet dreams...;)

Being on other side of pond, I confess I have little knowledge about News media in UK (their capability for reporting genuine news or otherwise). :)