SA submarine outwits NATO

[XaNDeR]

SA submarine outwits Nato force
Louis Oelofse | Atlantic Ocean
04 September 2007 06:16
A lone South African submarine left some Nato commanders with red faces on Tuesday as it "sank" all the ships of the Nato Maritime Group engaged in exercises with the South African Navy off the Cape coast.

The S101 -- or the SAS Manthatisi -- not only evaded detection by a joint Nato and South African Navy search party consisting of several ships combing the search area with radar and sonar, it also "sank" all the ships taking part in the fleet.

At several times during the exercise -- which lasted throughout Monday night and Tuesday morning -- a red square lit up the screens where the surface ships thought the submarine was. But it remained elusive.

This gave Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota something to brag about when he landed on the SAS Amatola on Tuesday to speak to the media

"To be able to frustrate detection by Nato nations is no mean achievement; it speaks of the excellence of the equipment we acquired for this purpose," Lekota said.

And while this left one of the world's strongest military alliances frustrated, it was also a sign that the group had a capable partner in Africa, Lekota said.

"With sustained inter-operability with foreign forces such as Nato, we are well positioned to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that may confront either ourselves or other regions," he said.

Lekota was quite clear that a working relationship with Nato was desired.

"They have a partner of reliable capability because we are forging working relations here. We are building mutual confidence for what can be done and what we can do together as Nato and South Africa, or as Nato and Southern African nations," Lekota said.

These sentiments were echoed by the commander of the Nato maritime group, Rear Admiral Mahon, who said the deployment would see the group sailing right around Africa.

"I can't speak for what the future will hold but certainly this was valuable. Africa is a strategic continent. The freedom of the seas, energy, security, they are all critical issue to Nato countries," he said.

The exercises would continue till the end of the week and would include, ship-to-ship refuelling, search-and-seizure exercises and various other scenarios faced by modern navies. -- Sapa



http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=318355&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__national/




This is amazing , especialy for South Africa

[eckherl]

Which NATO countries were part of this exercise.

[XaNDeR]

USS Normandy - Ticonderoga class !
HMCS Toronto - Halifax fregate
HNLMS Evertsen - De Zeven Provinciën class fregate
HDMS Olfert Fischer - Niels Juel corvete
NRP Alvares Cabral - Vasco da Gama class fregate

[Andy in West Oz]

She'd be as silent as a grave at slow speeds. I take it there was no NATO SSK/SSN involved?

[crobato]

If it's SA, I would assume its one of the German made Type 209s?

[radiosilence]

If it's SA, I would assume its one of the German made Type 209s?

It was a type 209-1400 . she was commissioned in November 2005.

[erich hartman]

this is very easy for a modern diesel electric sub to avoid detection especially in shallow water.

[Gripenator]

SA submarine outwits Nato force
Louis Oelofse | Atlantic Ocean
04 September 2007 06:16
A lone South African submarine left some Nato commanders with red faces on Tuesday as it "sank" all the ships of the Nato Maritime Group engaged in exercises with the South African Navy off the Cape coast.

The S101 -- or the SAS Manthatisi -- not only evaded detection by a joint Nato and South African Navy search party consisting of several ships combing the search area with radar and sonar, it also "sank" all the ships taking part in the fleet.

At several times during the exercise -- which lasted throughout Monday night and Tuesday morning -- a red square lit up the screens where the surface ships thought the submarine was. But it remained elusive.

This gave Defence Minister Mosiuoa Lekota something to brag about when he landed on the SAS Amatola on Tuesday to speak to the media

"To be able to frustrate detection by Nato nations is no mean achievement; it speaks of the excellence of the equipment we acquired for this purpose," Lekota said.

And while this left one of the world's strongest military alliances frustrated, it was also a sign that the group had a capable partner in Africa, Lekota said.

"With sustained inter-operability with foreign forces such as Nato, we are well positioned to respond to any unforeseen circumstances that may confront either ourselves or other regions," he said.

Lekota was quite clear that a working relationship with Nato was desired.

"They have a partner of reliable capability because we are forging working relations here. We are building mutual confidence for what can be done and what we can do together as Nato and South Africa, or as Nato and Southern African nations," Lekota said.

These sentiments were echoed by the commander of the Nato maritime group, Rear Admiral Mahon, who said the deployment would see the group sailing right around Africa.

"I can't speak for what the future will hold but certainly this was valuable. Africa is a strategic continent. The freedom of the seas, energy, security, they are all critical issue to Nato countries," he said.

The exercises would continue till the end of the week and would include, ship-to-ship refuelling, search-and-seizure exercises and various other scenarios faced by modern navies. -- Sapa






This is amazing , especialy for South Africa


This is indeed interesting, however the "exercise" was somehow skewed in favor of the SA Type 209-I seriously doubt that the NATO flotilla actually utilised their full capabilities in the hunt-this sounds wayyy too biased in favor of the ONE 209 and the fact that a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area? If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged and would have no chance to escape about 2-4 LAMPS helos after it (each helo covering 60 degrees), let alone run from a Mk46 AsuW torp once detected(c.40knts)

This is just probably a PR stunt to make that ex-guerilla monkey Lekota feel good about himself

[kato]

a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.
No SSNs in UNIFIL (which is a NATO Battle group), only one SSK operating in the area that is not officially part of the fleet.
Pretty sure there's no permanent SSN presence in TF150 either.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos

South Africa has ordered DM2A4 Seehecht (Seahake Mod. 4) torpedoes for these subs, and is presumably already using the DM2A3 Seahake Mod. 3.
DM2A4 is a new wire-guided torpedo with active/passive homing, a speed of 50 knots and a range of around 30 nm.
DM2A3 is a standard 90s heavy wire-guided torpedo, active homing, 35 knots speed, range around 15 nm.
(typical info, real stuff classified of course)
Both torpedoes employ modern guidance including re-attack strategies. The guidance system aboard the sub allow simultaneous guidance against multiple targets with multiple torpedoes in the water.

If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged

21.5 knots declassified for a Type 209/1400 (some sources: 22 knots). Of course at 20 knots, it would run out of batteries after 20nm though.

[nornavy]

I do not think the exerise favoured the sub in any way.
The Norwegian Ula class SSKs have on several occations taken out entire Task Groups on exercises. During the NATO exercise Joint Winter in 2004, one sub sank the entire invasion fleet and were ordered to leave the exercise for 72 hours.
Norwegian subs have also penetrated the escort and "sunk" a US carrier on atleast a couple of occations.

Small and silent, modern SSKs are more than a match for surface ships.

[contedicavour]

I do not think the exerise favoured the sub in any way.
The Norwegian Ula class SSKs have on several occations taken out entire Task Groups on exercises. During the NATO exercise Joint Winter in 2004, one sub sank the entire invasion fleet and were ordered to leave the exercise for 72 hours.
Norwegian subs have also penetrated the escort and "sunk" a US carrier on atleast a couple of occations.

Small and silent, modern SSKs are more than a match for surface ships.

I remember similar stories about the small and silent Toti class SSKs in the '70s. They regularly managed to beat USN ASW screen and attack the carriers. It's amazing how small SSKs can still achieve wonders especially in coastal areas.

cheers

[Musashi_kenshin]

USS Normandy - Ticonderoga class !
HMCS Toronto - Halifax fregate
HNLMS Evertsen - De Zeven Provinciën class fregate
HDMS Olfert Fischer - Niels Juel corvete
NRP Alvares Cabral - Vasco da Gama class fregate

No Royal Navy frigates - there's your problem! :D

[Oryx]

For some further information and photographs from the exercise:

Day one:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070904_Amazolo/article.htm

Day two, when the "event" with Manthatisi occurred:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070905_Amazolo2/article.htm

And the predictable response from the media in SA:
http://www.navy.mil.za/archive/0709/070906_sub_congrats/article.htm

To comment on what "Gripenator" said: It was certainly not a PR stunt. As you can see it was part of a bigger exercise and two South African frigates were among the victims. I know a little about the commander of the sub and he is very highly regarded within the SAN. In addition, the SA sub commanders know those waters very well and are used to the interesting thermal layers you get in the areas where the Benguela and Agulhas currents mix. In the past, the old Daphne class subs also caused some unpleasant surprises in exercises, although those events were not as well publicized.

As for the jibe at Mr. Lekota: I think there are many politicians around the world and in South Africa who can be called "monkeys" and he is indeed an ex-guerrilla fighter, but he has performed considerably better than most of the recent South African politicians and far, far better than the vast majority of politicians on the African continent.

[DarthAmerica]

Impressive performance for the crew of the SSK. Subs are really dangerous when used properly and can have effect disproportionate to their operational footprint. In a real scenario, depending on the combatants, this could alter the course of the war. Makes me think of the effects of RN subs in the Falklands conflict. BAMs and armed UUVs cant get into service fast enough!

-DA

P.S. Does anybody know the rough average operational radius for a typical SSK from its home port while performing Sea Denial operations?

[Waylander]

No Royal Navy frigates - there's your problem! :D

Naaah, at least a german hunter would for sure have known some interesting acoustical data about the U209... :D

[isthvan]

No Royal Navy frigates - there's your problem! :D

Remember ARA San Luis? ;)

btw. SAS Manthatisi commander name is Gary Kretschmer. Now thats a great name for sub commander...

[Musashi_kenshin]

Remember ARA San Luis? ;)

What about it?

[swerve]

btw. SAS Manthatisi commander name is Gary Kretschmer. Now thats a great name for sub commander...

Are their other sub commanders called Prien & Schepke?

[isthvan]

What about it?

Well nothing special; only Argentinian naval asset in Falklands area, playing cat and mouse wit RN ASW assets, managed to fire torpedo's at few occasions(no hits thank only to malfunctioned weapons system) and safely returning to base.
All that at the time when RN primary function was ASW...

Are their other sub commanders called Prien & Schepke?
:)

[submerged]

not really much ASW assets in the battlegroup anyways, the most capable being the niels juel for shallow water ASW probably. Whole battlegroups get sunk in excercises with subs anyways so i don't really see the special thing about this particular event, ofcourse it's allways nice to make fun of big grey surface targets tho ;)

[contedicavour]

Well nothing special; only Argentinian naval asset in Falklands area, playing cat and mouse wit RN ASW assets, managed to fire torpedo's at few occasions(no hits thank only to malfunctioned weapons system) and safely returning to base.
All that at the time when RN primary function was ASW...


:)

Amazing how many weapons malfunctioned : from the A4s' bombs to the Type209 torpedoes ... while I am happy with the outcome I'm wondering if some weapons deliveries were actually deliberately sub-standard...

Back to topic, what ASW screen was there exactly to stop the SA SSK in the exercise ? If indeed there was only a Danish light FFG then heck it's not fair ;)

cheers

[kato]

Back to topic, what ASW screen was there exactly to stop the SA SSK in the exercise ? If indeed there was only a Danish light FFG then heck it's not fair ;)


The NATO part of the exercise was apparently SNMG1.

USS Normandy (Tico, flagship)
HNLMS Evertsen (LCF class)
HMCS Toronto (Halifax class)
NRP Alvaras Cabral (Vasco da Gama class, Meko-200PN)
HDMS Olfert Fischer (Niels Juel class)
FGS Spessart (Rhön class, AO)

The Danish and the Portuguese ship apparently provided the ASW screen, along with Alvaras Cabral's Lynx.

See also here (http://navy.org.za/articles/2007/09/03/nato-sa-in-naval-warfare-exercise).

[spsun100001]

At face value it does seem an impressive performance. I wonder if ASW skills in western navies have deteriorated since the end of the cold war and the change in focus from the primary threat being the Soviet sub-surface fleet?

Certainly there are far fewer western assets with towed arrays these days, lots of navies are putting less emphasis on ASW platforms (take the USN's withdrawal of the Spruance destroyers and S3 ASW aircraft, the RN's reduction of Nimrod ASW aircraft from 22 to 12 etc.) and I wonder if that reflects a general reduction in not only the ASW capability of the fleets but how much time they spend practising this most difficult of tasks?

If it does then that has to be of concern given the proliferation of capable SS vessels into many navies.

Steve

[kato]

Idly wondering if SNMG2 would have fared better.

The mediterranean-based SNMG2 currently consists of:
USS Arleigh Burke (obvious)
HMS Manchester (Type 42)
HS Kanaris (Kortenaer)
SPS Navarra (F80 OHP derivative)
TCG Gökova (G-class OHP)
ITS Espero (Maestrale class).

Bit more ASW-centric/-capable than SNMG1. More helos too (max 3 Seahawks, 4 AB212, 1 Lynx) than SNMG1 (max 3 Lynx, 2 Seahawk, 1 Sea King).

[contedicavour]

Idly wondering if SNMG2 would have fared better.

The mediterranean-based SNMG2 currently consists of:
USS Arleigh Burke (obvious)
HMS Manchester (Type 42)
HS Kanaris (Kortenaer)
SPS Navarra (F80 OHP derivative)
TCG Gökova (G-class OHP)
ITS Espero (Maestrale class).

Bit more ASW-centric/-capable than SNMG1. More helos too (max 3 Seahawks, 4 AB212, 1 Lynx) than SNMG1 (max 3 Lynx, 2 Seahawk, 1 Sea King).

Well the Maestrales were purpose built for sub hunting with VDS+towed array and even A184 heavy torpedoes (these have been removed) and 2 ASW helos. While they also carry Teseo Mk2 SSMs and Aspide SAMs their focus was ASW.
Besides our FFG, a couple of OHPs would also have provided a first class ASW screen.
With all due respect, IIRC neither the Portuguese nor the Danish ships have VDS and towed array sonars and the Danish ship doesn't have helos.

cheers

[neil]

This is indeed interesting, however the "exercise" was somehow skewed in favor of the SA Type 209-I seriously doubt that the NATO flotilla actually utilised their full capabilities in the hunt-this sounds wayyy too biased in favor of the ONE 209 and the fact that a NATO Battle Group never operates without at least one accompanying SSN outside EU waters.

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area? If I remember correctly, an SSK has a top speed of about 24knts submerged and would have no chance to escape about 2-4 LAMPS helos after it (each helo covering 60 degrees), let alone run from a Mk46 AsuW torp once detected(c.40knts)

This is just probably a PR stunt to make that ex-guerilla monkey Lekota feel good about himself



This was defenitely no PR stunt.. do you really think the NATO navies would allow themselves to be humiliated like that in public? I dont think so..

There is a perception out there that South Africa is just another African country.. hopeless in every way.. and if you look at what you see in the South African news these days, in some instances this is true..

But at large the South African military is a proffesional force with good(not excellent, but good) training and they are underestimated by many people..

In excercises during the last couple of years, the Luftwaffe, US Air Force, Belgian Air Component and Indian Air Forces all learned first hand that the South African military is defenitely worth excercising with.. South African fighter jets scored a number of 'kills' against their NATO adversaries.. in fact during the joint naval excercises held with Germany in 2006, the protective combat air patrol set up by south african fighter jets over the 'target fleet', proved to be so good, that the Luftwaffe complained they couldnt get close enough to practice firing their Cormorant Anti Ship missiles!

I am certainly not an advocate of the current South African government and I'm not trying to imply that the SA armed forces are better than they actually are..

All I'm trying to say here, is that there are many highly proffesional people in the SA armed services, just as there unfortunately are many not so proffesional people there also..

The proffesionals should be given the credit they're due.. and not mocked simply because they are from a relatively unknown African country..

Well done Commander Gary Kretschmer!!!

[submerged]

Assuming that the 209 fired wire guided and/or "dumb" (unguided) torpedos from one vector and actually hit one of the ships in the NATO flotilla, wouldn't the rest of the ships be able to triangulate approximately the 209's position using active sonar after observing the angle of the hit and assign 2-3 ASuW helicopters (SH-60LAMPS) to 'flush it out' and sink it as the SSK attempts to get out of the area?

the torpedo launch itself would make so much noise the location of the sub would've been known by the taskforce instantly when utilising passive sonar systems, keeping track of it is difficult if handled by experienced commander tho. Active sonar isn't as effective in the shallows as it is in the blue because of the fragmentation provided by the seabed (not taking in account LFAS systems here)

[swerve]

Amazing how many weapons malfunctioned : from the A4s' bombs to the Type209 torpedoes ... while I am happy with the outcome I'm wondering if some weapons deliveries were actually deliberately sub-standard......
cheers

IIRC they worked out what was wrong with the bombs. They were dropping unretarded bombs, below the safe release altitude because they were flying low to avoid air defences, & the fuse safeties wouldn't let 'em explode. They had to fit improvised retarding devices, & then they started working. But a bit late in the war.

There are rumours of a bit of a cultural problem complicating this, & delaying a solution. Poor communication between posh pilots & humble armourers.

[gf0012-aust]

Active sonar isn't as effective in the shallows as it is in the blue because of the fragmentation provided by the seabed (not taking in account LFAS systems here)

It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....

[Wooki]

Impressive performance for the crew of the SSK. Subs are really dangerous when used properly and can have effect disproportionate to their operational footprint. In a real scenario, depending on the combatants, this could alter the course of the war. Makes me think of the effects of RN subs in the Falklands conflict. BAMs and armed UUVs cant get into service fast enough!

-DA

P.S. Does anybody know the rough average operational radius for a typical SSK from its home port while performing Sea Denial operations?

Nope, but your average surface vessel is 6000NM range point (a) to (b) and an SSK doesn't have the endurance of a surface asset, yet.

cheers

w

[kato]

an SSK doesn't have the endurance of a surface asset, yet.


Umm, a lot of SSKs have higher endurance than a most ships.

For modern HDW submarines:
Type 212A - 85 days (21 days on AIP); range surfaced 8,000nm
Type 214 - 50 days; range surfaced 12,000nm
Type 209/1400 - 50 days; range surfaced 10,000nm

Modern surface ships, for comparison:
F124 - 21 days, range 4,000nm
Horizon - 45 days, range 7,000nm
Absolon - 28 days, range 10,000nm

Surface ships, in most navies, have the advantage of operating with support ships to refuel/replenish at sea.

[submerged]

It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....

yeah, and it also lead to the rise of Low Frequency Active Sonar solutions, wich showed much improved detection rates in shallow water conditions alltho quiet controversial because of it's suspected impact on marine mamals. CBASS is an update to the Mk48 ADCAP sonar suite isn't it?

[Wooki]

Umm, a lot of SSKs have higher endurance than a most ships.

For modern HDW submarines:
Type 212A - 85 days (21 days on AIP); range surfaced 8,000nm
Type 214 - 50 days; range surfaced 12,000nm
Type 209/1400 - 50 days; range surfaced 10,000nm

Modern surface ships, for comparison:
F124 - 21 days, range 4,000nm
Horizon - 45 days, range 7,000nm
Absolon - 28 days, range 10,000nm

Surface ships, in most navies, have the advantage of operating with support ships to refuel/replenish at sea.

LOL Kato. A surfaced submarine ceases to be an asset, so you know what I mean, I think.

[kato]

LOL Kato. A surfaced submarine ceases to be an asset, so you know what I mean, I think.

I hope you don't intend your ships to need to be in "active duty state" going across half the planet.
Because, seriously, if you need to do that, you're better off searching diplomatic solutions instead of entering any conflict.

A U212A SSK can go submerged from Germany to the Mediterranean. More than anyone really needs. Once in theater, what counts is the endurance of your units. And without tenders and AORs, subs tend to beat surface units by far in that area - modern SSKs hit between 30 and 45 days independant operation time minimum, while surface ships tend to be laid out for 21-day supply-independant operations maximum.

[Wooki]

I hope you don't intend your ships to need to be in "active duty state" going across half the planet.
Because, seriously, if you need to do that, you're better off searching diplomatic solutions instead of entering any conflict.

A U212A SSK can go submerged from Germany to the Mediterranean. More than anyone really needs. Once in theater, what counts is the endurance of your units. And without tenders and AORs, subs tend to beat surface units by far in that area - modern SSKs hit between 30 and 45 days independant operation time minimum, while surface ships tend to be laid out for 21-day supply-independant operations maximum.

Lets agree to disagree then, shall we?

[kilo]

This wouldn't have happened if the group had some proper ASW assets and more ASW helicopters. Also just because surface ships are at a disadvantage against submarines in coastal waters doesn't mean they are obsolete it is harder for submarines to find track and target the enemy they usually rely on off board reconnaissance to find the general location of their targets. also even if surface ships die they can still complete their mission. If an escort sacrifices itself to protect it's charge then it has done it's mission. Also surface ships can do jobs that SSK's can't do like escort convoys, carriers, and landing ships.

[Ths]

It does give occation to pause.... (there it was - the pause)

1. Rear Admiral Niels Wang visited Vædderen in South Africa on his way to Australia.
2. I'm a bit surprised about Olfert... It has a constant problem with range and endurance - could be they were interested in the capabilities of the new patrolships....

[metro]

It's also why CBASS type solutions get developed.....

Does anyone know what the lower range (frequency) given off by active sonar is...? If it's classified, a general figure is fine. Just my innate curiosity from spending too much time playing with sound/acoustics/harmonics/music/etc.

What's used in subs to ID things? Mostly spectrometers?

Cheers

@Kato: Thanks for the info!

[kato]

Does anyone know what the lower range (frequency) given off by active sonar is...?

AN/SQC-53A (mid-frequency):
2,600-3,300 Hz, "centered at 2,900 Hz".
235+ db pressure.
Duration 0.5-2 sec, repetition every 28 sec.

SURTASS LFA (low-frequency):
100-500 Hz.
235 db effective pressure.
Duration 6-100 sec, repetition every 360-900 sec.

Source: http://www.nrdc.org/wildlife/marine/sound/sound.pdf (Table 1.1, Ch.1 p.3)

[neil]

South Africa's third and final Type 209 SAS Queen Modjadji has finally arrived at Simons Town Naval Base. She was escorted home by the SA Navy's Hydrographic Survey Vessel SAS Protea.

http://www.saairforce.co.za/news-and-events/677/arrival-of-third-sa-navy-submarine

Some nice pics too..

Apparently the second sub, SAS Charlotte Maxeke also undertook the first patrol of South Africa's exclusive economic zone(by a sub) in a long time.

Looking at the pictures it is also good to see both boats at sea at the same time. Good in the sense that they had a sufficient amount of crew members to do this.

[sonar324]

During an ASW exercise the ships are at a disadvantage since they need to always have their echo sounder on plus they usually operate above their cavitation inception speed. Not to hard to track two shafts by five blades tearing all over the ocean.

[gf0012-aust]

During an ASW exercise the ships are at a disadvantage since they need to always have their echo sounder on plus they usually operate above their cavitation inception speed. Not to hard to track two shafts by five blades tearing all over the ocean.

I assume you're only talking about unassisted search? thats why fantails were born... :)

[AegisFC]

During an ASW exercise the ships are at a disadvantage since they need to always have their echo sounder on plus they usually operate above their cavitation inception speed. Not to hard to track two shafts by five blades tearing all over the ocean.

During exercises I've seen choked transit, open ocean and general littoral scenarios, in none of those were we made to activate sonar or go faster than we needed. The point of those scenarios is to train everyone involved and if you don't use real tactics under realistic conditions (as real as you can get), or set up unrealistic rules (having sonar active all the time or making more noise than normal) the training is for nothing.