New details on FREMM AAW variant

[contedicavour]

The prestigious meretmarine.com site has written that the French Navy has started 2 months ago a detailed study of a AAW variant of FREMM based on a more powerful Herakles radar (150km range), 48 VLS (the usual 32 for Aster-15 plus the 16 aft that would be used for Aster-30 instead of land-attack scalp naval), no long range radar (simply not enough space).
The plan is that the first batch of 8 approved FREMM FFGs would include 2 AAW variants to replace the 2 Cassard AAW FFGs that still use SM1 around 2018.
Italy is following a similar path (the FREMM are binational Franco-Italian but it seems the 2 countries are going at it alone in their search for a AAW variant) with the active phased array version of EMPAR.
Greece may join the French or the Italians in their search for 4 to 6 AAW FFGs.

If the cost remains around 350 million euro per ship (excl weapons and non recurrent R&D costs) then there might be a wider market...

cheers

[European]

Meretmarine reports a total cost for 2 FREDA (FREmm Defence Aniaerienne) of 1,1 bilion €.
It means 550 milions € for a frigate AAW without long range radar (S1850) and a multipurpose radar (Herakles.... many doubts..) that is not capable to be a Empar nor a S1850 :onfloorl:
It will be not a good AAW frigate comparable to the Horizon/Type45 class or Bazan class.
A new Horizon (costs of R&D already amortized) is around 700-800 milions €.
It will be better to have a 3rd Horizon than 2 fake AAW frigates as FreDA to protect the battle group of a blue water (that MN claims to be).

I'm sure that FreDA will be a good choice for litoral defense.

Surely not good to defend a naval group of a blue water navy with supercarriers (such as PA2/CVF or nuclear CdG).
It's already a mistake to have only 2 frigates AAW (Horizon) and now another mistake. France wants to save money with un upgrade of Fremm and a extension of life service for the aeging Cassard (system Tartar with SM1 ).

The RN choose a minimum of 6 Type45 to protect the fleet and the 2 CVF. How could MN to protect a PA2/CVF and the CdG or the 'Aeronaval' with 2 Horizons???

I can't imagine CdG or PA2 in Taiwanese sea or off to Iranian costs escorted by a Cassard or Fremm AAW without a long range radar.
A lot of SU-30MK or Mig29 will enjoy......

[contedicavour]

Meretmarine reports a total cost for 2 FREDA (FREmm Defence Aniaerienne) of 1,1 bilion €.
It means 550 milions € for a frigate AAW without long range radar (S1850) and a multipurpose radar (Herakles.... many doubts..) that is not capable to be a Empar nor a S1850 :onfloorl:
It will be not a good AAW frigate comparable to the Horizon/Type45 class or Bazan class.
A new Horizon (costs of R&D already amortized) is around 700-800 milions €.
It will be better to have a 3rd Horizon than 2 fake AAW frigates as FreDA to protect the battle group of a blue water (that MN claims to be).

I'm sure that FreDA will be a good choice for litoral defense.

Surely not good to defend a naval group of a blue water navy with supercarriers (such as PA2/CVF or nuclear CdG).
It's already a mistake to have only 2 frigates AAW (Horizon) and now another mistake. France wants to save money with un upgrade of Fremm and a extension of life service for the aeging Cassard (system Tartar with SM1 ).

The RN choose a minimum of 6 Type45 to protect the fleet and the 2 CVF. How could MN to protect a PA2/CVF and the CdG or the 'Aeronaval' with 2 Horizons???

I can't imagine CdG or PA2 in Taiwanese sea or off to Iranian costs escorted by a Cassard or Fremm AAW without a long range radar.
A lot of SU-30MK or Mig29 will enjoy......

Well if you lack enough money to build 2 new Horizons the AAW FREMM can be a good alternative provided the navy knows what limitations this means (as you say, not the best tool to defend from the Chinese air force SU30s...). There is also a way around the problem : keep the older DDGs (as our 1990s De la Penne DDGs) with their long range radar and use them in association with the AAW FREMMs. This is fine until 2018 for France (deletion date of Cassards) and 2022 (deletion date of DLP DDGs)

cheers

[European]

Well if you lack enough money to build 2 new Horizons the AAW FREMM can be a good alternative provided the navy knows what limitations this means (as you say, not the best tool to defend from the Chinese air force SU30s...). There is also a way around the problem : keep the older DDGs (as our 1990s De la Penne DDGs) with their long range radar and use them in association with the AAW FREMMs. This is fine until 2018 for France (deletion date of Cassards) and 2022 (deletion date of DLP DDGs)

cheers

I meant that is better to have 1 more Horizon and 1 more Fremm GP (general purpose). 3 Horizons are the minimum to provide at least 1 always ready to escort the aircraft carrier group.
1 more Horizon with 48+16 vls for Aster 30 and a long range radar will be far better than 2 FremmDA with a multipourpose radar (aka Herakles).

[contedicavour]

I meant that is better to have 1 more Horizon and 1 more Fremm GP (general purpose). 3 Horizons are the minimum to provide at least 1 always ready to escort the aircraft carrier group.
1 more Horizon with 48+16 vls for Aster 30 and a long range radar will be far better than 2 FremmDA with a multipourpose radar (aka Herakles).

Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers

[swerve]

Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers

Bah. Don't waste money on R&D, just build Type 45s under licence. :D

[harryriedl]

Hmm yes but there won't be any new Horizons, the programme is completed and won't be restarted... and by the time we replace the De la Penne a real new DDG would have be to a stretched version of fremm, ie spend a huge bundle of extra R&D cash, etc for 1 ship !?
That's why I'd rather get a AAW FREMM than a very hypothetical 1+ bn euro DDG...

cheers

stupid question i know the French Horizon program has finished but to build a 3rd Horizon all they would need to do is order the long lead items [if the politicos approve] and it wouldn't be too tricky to build a 3rd ships

the French DDG programs are making me shudder :shudder its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets. i like others feel this forces is inadequates for the French assets CDG, PA2[the Italians have more capable assets in AAW] ect in dangerous areas.

[European]

stupid question i know the French Horizon program has finished but to build a 3rd Horizon all they would need to do is order the long lead items [if the politicos approve] and it wouldn't be too tricky to build a 3rd ships

the French DDG programs are making me shudder :shudder its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets. i like others feel this forces is inadequates for the French assets CDG, PA2[the Italians have more capable assets in AAW] ect in dangerous areas.

Exactly,
to build a erd Horizon is still possible and will save a lot of money. Better if both France and Italy decide to build a new one for both. 2 new Horizons.

The question is that a Fremm with Herakles 150km (gosh....... at least the italian will have the Empar 200km) and a Cassard with a Tartar SM1 are really useless to protect the fleet against modern threats and modern aircrafts.

This new FremmDA sounds to me as the new aid to the national industry DCNS for the hull and Thales France for the radar Herakles.
I would like to know if a sailorman in Taiwan Sea will feel more protect by a Horizon or a FremmDA/Cassard :confused: :confused:

All right, at least the french navy can ask to the spanish to provide one of the 6 F-100 Aegis if necessary (as already did...).

[kato]

its seems strange that the French don't build the Italians AAW FREMMs with the EMPAR radar rather than use the unsuited Herkleas radar for the task of AAW and makes the FREMMs less relent on the Cassard class to cue targets.

They wouldn't rely on a Cassard to provide long-range radar information. Charles de Gaulle has an almost-identical radar suite as fitted to the Cassard class (some components upgraded, some additional - especially better in low-altitude).

3D Air search radar of the Cassard suite (and Charles de Gaulle) has a range of 360+ km, secondary layer is a 180+ km air search radar. Charles de Gaulle has a third 110+ km layer with an air/surface search radar, and only beyond that the fire-control radars related to the weapons suite even begin (for CdG, 70+ km Arabel 3D for the Aster 15).

I don't see much problems with an escort and its multi-function radar operating at the second layer, as long as it works reliable.

[contedicavour]

I've got the feeling the French government wants export contracts (starting with Greece and South Africa) first and foremost. The Navy will make do with whatever's accepted...

cheers

[harryriedl]

They wouldn't rely on a Cassard to provide long-range radar information. Charles de Gaulle has an almost-identical radar suite as fitted to the Cassard class (some components upgraded, some additional - especially better in low-altitude).

3D Air search radar of the Cassard suite (and Charles de Gaulle) has a range of 360+ km, secondary layer is a 180+ km air search radar. Charles de Gaulle has a third 110+ km layer with an air/surface search radar, and only beyond that the fire-control radars related to the weapons suite even begin (for CdG, 70+ km Arabel 3D for the Aster 15).

I don't see much problems with an escort and its multi-function radar operating at the second layer, as long as it works reliable.

it will have to have to have a Cassard if it isn't escorting the carriers and is escorting LPD, and mistral class and the Herklase in my opinion isn't enough to be the primary AAW radar when a Cassard or Horizon is unavalible

[contedicavour]

it will have to have to have a Cassard if it isn't escorting the carriers and is escorting LPD, and mistral class and the Herklase in my opinion isn't enough to be the primary AAW radar when a Cassard or Horizon is unavalible

Indeed. Unless there is an AWACS available above or a couple of E2C Hawkeye taking off from the De Gaulle or future CVF.

cheers

[Galrahn]

Would France offer the Horizon as an option for the RFP for an air defense destroyer for India?

I'm trying to think about who will compete against Russia on that contract, it seems to me that the Horizon is as good if not a better option than anything out there, as it defaults a configuration listed in the RFP, as opposed to competitors who would have to design a new ship.

[harryriedl]

Would France offer the Horizon as an option for the RFP for an air defense destroyer for India?

I'm trying to think about who will compete against Russia on that contract, it seems to me that the Horizon is as good if not a better option than anything out there, as it defaults a configuration listed in the RFP, as opposed to competitors who would have to design a new ship.

isn't horizon too large and expensive for the Indian RFP because i thought that the a modified FREMM even a lengthen LAFFAYET and the Indians don't seem to be interested in ASTER

[contedicavour]

isn't horizon too large and expensive for the Indian RFP because i thought that the a modified FREMM even a lengthen LAFFAYET and the Indians don't seem to be interested in ASTER

absolutely, DCN will propose a modified FREMM.
That's why I suspect DCN is preparing the AAW FREMM more for Greece, SA and potentially India than for the French Navy's own requirements. Even if this is course politically uncorrect and they'll always deny it.

cheers

[Spacearrow99]

Herakles Radar

3D air domain coverage: 0 to 250 Km

Surface domain: coverage 80 Km

Track capacity> 500 air+surface

Fully capable with Aster 15/30

All of this information is at the Thales-naval online site.

[European]

All of this information is at the Thales-naval online site.

I don't beleieve that Thales is a good source....

[kato]

I don't beleieve that Thales is a good source....
Errr, sure.

Well, you could go to DSTA (as they're the only user of Herakles), but i really, really doubt they'd be exactly forthcoming with such information. ;)

Anyone got Jane's Radar and Electronic Warfare Systems handy?

(the 2002 estimated/proposed values don't match either the "low-end" nor the "high-end" data given in this thread)

[Spacearrow99]

Singapore uses the Herakles on it's new frigates. What proof do have that the Thales information is false?

(What 2002 estimated proposed values? values for Herakles)

[kato]

(What 2002 estimated proposed values? values for Herakles)
<200 km range, >200 tracks. Jane's 2002.

[Spacearrow99]

The Fremm program was not in existence in 2002. I will go by the Thales information. Come on, we are talking about 5 year old proposed values. Look whats happening to LCS program, much can happen in 5 years. By the time the Fremms become operational that information we be 8 years old.

[Spacearrow99]

The AAW Fremms computers will be upgraded; so they can engage as many targets at the same time as the Horizons. The Fremms are far from being the perfect platform, but they are a huge upgrade. Compared to their present AWW DDG force.

[European]

The AAW Fremms computers will be upgraded; so they can engage as many targets at the same time as the Horizons. The Fremms are far from being the perfect platform, but they are a huge upgrade. Compared to their present AWW DDG force.


That's Thales propaganda. :(
Don't believe that.
If that's true it will be better for french MN to sell the 2 Horizons to Italian MM and buy more capable french FREDA. Cheaper, more modern, more capable, etc.....
The truth, bitter to accept, is that the true AAW class frigates capable to protect the 2 aircraft carriers (PA2+CdG) are the Horizon class suited with true capable radars (Empar+S1850) and equiped with 48 (+16 optional vls) Aster 30. A navy that claims to be a blue navy can't permit to have a weak AAW defense. When there will be a Horizon in maintenance who will protect the fleet against the lot of SU-30MK that Rosomboronexport is selling through the world? Cassard with Tartar and SM1 (50km of radius) or a doubtly efficient FreDA with a radar capable to see an 747 to 200 km, but not a small modern and dangerous fighter before 100 km????
FreDA can be a good option compared to the old Cassard/Bart with Tartar and SM1. Honestly also LaFayette class or the Singapour frigates fit with Herakles are far superior to Cassard/Bart.

FreDA are the tipycal today compromise that in long term will be considered an error and a waste of money (they are supposed to remain in service til 2040).

I believe (my personal opinion) that the choice of FreDA is more under pressure of national industry (FreDA are easyer to export than Horizon) and cause the MN knows that will never efforts to operate 2 aircraft carrier on the same time. An example was the twin Foch and Clemenceau, they never were used at the same time as aircraft carriers. Always 1 in sailing, and the other in the harbour or some exception when Clemenceau operates has aircrafts carrier and Foch as helicopter carrier.
When decommissioned Foch was 30 years but was similar a brand new carrier..... Good for Brasil :)

[kato]

Maybe you should look at how the MN actually uses AAW ships a bit first.

With regard to carriers, French CBGs tend to go into maintenance as a "group". I.e. you'll probably see a Horizon attached to each future CBG, and that's it. They might take part in some exercises outside their CBG, but won't be "available" to protect other deployed assets much.

The rest of the MN does not have much need for Theater AAW. France's permanent operational commands (COMAR MANCHE, CECMED, ALINDIEN, ALPACI, CECLANT) all operate in zones where there is no given permanent serious air threat warranting a AAW assignment.
The only operational use for AAW ships in the MN is with the action groups, i.e. Groupe Aeronavale and Groupe Amphibie. The Groupe Amphibie does not have escorts permanently assigned, and i doubt they will in the future. Neither does the Groupe Amphibie even need much in the way of escorts, especially AAW, for most of its missions.

Keeping two FreDA as "flexible" escorts for taskforces is enough to fit France's needs, in particular as these would primarily only be used to escort amphibs.

[European]

Well,
6 Type 45 for 2 CVF are too much?
It seem that RN would prefer to have at least 8.
Why?

FreDA are compromises. Calling it 'flexible' doesn't change too much.

[kato]

FreDA are compromises. Calling it 'flexible' doesn't change too much.

I meant "flexible" in the sense that the MN can attach them as AAW escorts as needed, unlike ships semi-permanently assigned to a naval group. This is a role that they only have a single Cassard for right now, btw.

Well,
6 Type 45 for 2 CVF are too much?
It seem that RN would prefer to have at least 8.
Why?

If you look at the RN force structure, they effectively have a third "carrier" that needs a semi-permanent escort (HMS Ocean). With 6 Type 45, the RN would have 4 "ready" - out of which 2 at least will be preassigned to escorting the (3) carriers. Leaving 2 at most for the rest of the (numerous) RN amphibs and the rest of the fleet.
The numbers aren't really all that different.

[contedicavour]

My only hope is that our active phased array version of EMPAR (supposed to be ready by 2011) will allow our FREMM to perform well in AAW.
Since the sad truth is that we either get AAW FREMM or we remain with 2 Horizon and 2 De la Penne.
With 10 FREMM (ASW & ASUW), 2-4 U212A, 22 F35B, 2 AOR, 1 big LHD, 54 NH90 to be paid over the next 15 years I don't see how we can add even a single Horizon to the bill... I actually envisage that 2 of the 10 FREMM will be AAW, and that any AAW improvement (via real DDGs) won't be discussed before 2020 (and the deletion of the De la Pennes)

cheers

[European]

My only hope is that our active phased array version of EMPAR (supposed to be ready by 2011) will allow our FREMM to perform well in AAW.
Since the sad truth is that we either get AAW FREMM or we remain with 2 Horizon and 2 De la Penne.
With 10 FREMM (ASW & ASUW), 2-4 U212A, 22 F35B, 2 AOR, 1 big LHD, 54 NH90 to be paid over the next 15 years I don't see how we can add even a single Horizon to the bill... I actually envisage that 2 of the 10 FREMM will be AAW, and that any AAW improvement (via real DDGs) won't be discussed before 2020 (and the deletion of the De la Pennes)

cheers


Yeaaahh that's true. At least MN has decided the way to go. 2 Horizons+2 Fremm AAW + 2 Cassard update.

The MM risks to remain only with 2 Horizons and 2 DlP update :( :( :(

[contedicavour]

Yeaaahh that's true. At least MN has decided the way to go. 2 Horizons+2 Fremm AAW + 2 Cassard update.

The MM risks to remain only with 2 Horizons and 2 DlP update :( :( :(

Except that the cassard update is needed to keep them sailing until the fremms arrive, so the situation is just as critical.
At least our DLPs carry Aspides and 3 Strales 76/62 to supplement SM1 and are 5 years younger than the Cassards.

cheers

[harryriedl]

Except that the cassard update is needed to keep them sailing until the fremms arrive, so the situation is just as critical.
At least our DLPs carry Aspides and 3 Strales 76/62 to supplement SM1 and are 5 years younger than the Cassards.

cheers

the MM has more time to replace its Durand de la Penne class and it better armed and has more hull life.
i thought that DLP was being replaced by horizon class

do the cassards have helo hanger in the pictures of it i couldn't see one?

[kato]

do the cassards have helo hanger in the pictures of it i couldn't see one?

Official (http://www.defense.gouv.fr/marine/decouverte/equipements/batiments_de_combat/fregates/antiaeriennes_type_f70_aa/cassard_d_614):

Hangar (12,50 x 9 m) et plate-forme (16,20 x 11 m) pour hélicoptère avec système de manutention SAMAHE-10 (Système Automatique de Manutention des Hélicoptères Embarqués)

[Spacearrow99]

The Horizons are just about operational, and they're a huge upgrade over their present AAW DDGs. It would be stupid to sale them when the AAW Fremm is in the developmental stage. France has a bluewater navy; they have E-2Cs. MM and RN AEW cover is not as capable as the MN's. You have to include CDG Air Group when you are talking about French CBG protection. The MN new point defense layer has a longer range, in terms of detection and missiles. When Horizons are unable, load AAW Fremms with Aster 30 use several normal Fremms for point defense. The MN defense sytems are networked.


The Foch operating costs were high, and its a small carrier. The PA2 will be 3 times its size.

D 614 Cassard and D 615 Jean Bart will be replaced in 2018 by the AAW Fremms.

[European]

The proof that there is something strange.
The same source report 2 differents price for the Horizon:

Here is 2.7 bilions € for 2 Horizons:
En définitive, le coût des deux frégates françaises, les Forbin et Chevalier Paul, atteint 1.9 milliard d'euros, auquel il faut ajouter le coût du système d'armes. La Marine nationale estimant le budget total à 2.7 milliards d'euros, le prix de ce dernier serait donc d'environ 800 millions d'euros

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105325


Here is 1.6 bilion €. There's written 800 milion € at unit:

La commande de la troisième Horizon était d'ailleurs prévue dans la loi de programmation 2003-2008. Le coût très élevé de ces navires (800 millions d'euros pièce) est la raison principale de cet abandon.


http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=144

[Spacearrow99]

Ordering the 3rd and 4th Horizons would be good for the MN. The AAW Fremms are less capable then the Horizons in the AAW role (32 vls to 48 vls). The AAW Fremms Herakles radar range will be increased. The MN has 3 E-2Cs in French CBG (will increase to 4). MM and RN have to have larger numbers of Horizons and T-45s for air cover.

The Fremm is more flexibe. THe land attack Fremm will carry drones and Scalp Naval. Both normal versions are very good point defense platforms in a CBG; the MN can choose their air defense armament (Aster 15 and/or Aster 30) when they're on CBG duty. The French CBG will be well protected especially compared to its present form.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 Forbin, 1 ASUW Fremm

The French Amphibious Groups have far less protection then their CBGs. If the Horizon and AAW Fremms were in dry dock, the normal Fremms point defense capabilities is a massive upgrade over is current DDG fleet. They may have to built more AAW Fremms.

[kato]

The AAW Fremms are less capable then the Horizons in the AAW role (32 vls to 48 vls).
The rear VLS on the FREMM would be used for SAM as well, bringing them to 48 VLS cells (32 forward, 16 aft) as well.

probable Future French CBG:
CDG, 1 Land Atrack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 Forbin, 1 ASUW Fremm

Doubt the AAW Fremm. CdG has always sortied with only one AAW escort. Forbin should be enough.

Typical CdG CBG in the last couple years has been (*):
CDG, 1 AAW (F70 AA), 1-2 ASW (F67 ASW or F70 ASW), 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)

I could see one FREMM AVT and one FREMM ASW replacing the two F70 ASW, but not more really.

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.

----
(*) Generalized example for common makeup of TF 473. 2nd F70 ASW has also been switched for a Type 23 on two tours, and has been left out completely in other tours. Composition is generally pretty much like that though.
CdG has occasionally sortied with a more AAW in exercises, but the CBG was then generally part of a larger fleet. In 2004, CdG sortied with 3 AAW for 2 months for a wargame against the Indian Navy during Mission Agapanthe (Jean Bart, Duquesne, HMS Gloucester as AAW); the fleet also included a LPD, and several ASW and patrol ships.

[European]

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.



Not exactly,
that's an article of October, 26th, 2006:

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102722

Ces bâtiments sont donc équipés de matériels extrêmement performants et complexes, qui justifient en grande partie le coût particulièrement élevé de ces quatre unités : 2 milliards d'euros hors PAAMS.

4 Horizon (2 IT+2FR)= 2 bilion € without PAAMS.
It means that a single Horizon without PAAMS is 500milions €.
The total cost of R&D of PAAMS it's been shared between Italy, France and Uk and til today it's been spread on 11-13 sets of PAAMS (4 Horizon+1 Cavour+ 6-8 Type45).

The italian budget for 2 Horizon including the cost of PAAMS it's been of 1,6 bilion €. Project Horizon it's been shared 50% between Italy and France.
Fincantieri estimated 800 milion € at each the 2nd deleted batch of Horizon for MM.

The total cost of 2 FremmAA actually estimated from DCNS is 1.1 billion €. It's easy to suppose that the 'estimated' for a new project (FremmAA) will rise the price during years, while a existing project (Horizon) is less sensitive to a rise of price.

That's seems a clever manouvre of DCNS to discredit the Horizon project as too much expensive and to begin development (so new delay and future rise of price...) of a new Fremm AA that will be easyer to export.

Another question.
Fremm has no place for a radar S1850, so could someone explain to me where DCNS wants to put the additional 16 VLS (that are heavy!!!) ?
I'm scaried to read in 2011 that th cost of FremmAA will rise due to cost of research and that there will be not place for the additional 16 vls fo Aster 30.
A Fremm with Herakles and 30 vls for Aster 30 will be a good 'half size' AAW friegate escort.

[harryriedl]

The rear VLS on the FREMM would be used for SAM as well, bringing them to 48 VLS cells (32 forward, 16 aft) as well.



Doubt the AAW Fremm. CdG has always sortied with only one AAW escort. Forbin should be enough.

Typical CdG CBG in the last couple years has been (*):
CDG, 1 AAW (F70 AA), 1-2 ASW (F67 ASW or F70 ASW), 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)

I could see one FREMM AVT and one FREMM ASW replacing the two F70 ASW, but not more really.

@ European: The two articles were written two years apart, in 2005 and 2007. The newer article does point out that the cost of the Horizon program has risen to its current numbers, and that therefore acquiring FREDAs is far more economical.

----
(*) Generalized example for common makeup of TF 473. 2nd F70 ASW has also been switched for a Type 23 on two tours, and has been left out completely in other tours. Composition is generally pretty much like that though.
CdG has occasionally sortied with a more AAW in exercises, but the CBG was then generally part of a larger fleet. In 2004, CdG sortied with 3 AAW for 2 months for a wargame against the Indian Navy during Mission Agapanthe (Jean Bart, Duquesne, HMS Gloucester as AAW); the fleet also included a LPD, and several ASW and patrol ships.

i was wondering weather when PA2 is integrated in the fleet it will have more than one AOR as it is conventionally powered and will have more need of an AOR than GdG. despited the increased bunkerage.

also how frequent is the intergeneration of RN ship in the MM

[kato]

As for the second AOR, yeah, would be needed. The Foch CBG usually had two AORs as well.

also how frequent is the intergeneration of RN ship in the MM

In the MN, with the CdG CBG?

Foreign CdG escorts, other than for joint exercises:

2004, March to May - HMS Gloucester (Type 42) (deployment)
2006, February to May - HMS Lancaster (Type 23) (deployment)
2006, June - HMS Nottingham (Type 42) (exercise)
2007, February - Blas de Lezo (Spanish F100) (escort to Djibouti)
2007, March - HMS Sutherland (Type 23) (deployment)

[Spacearrow99]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG. The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval. DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy. The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

The French governement is pushing for the AWW Fremm. The project makes finanicial sense. The basic design of the AAW Fremm is set. They just need to add a 16 more vls, and upgrade the AAW Fremms computers. There shouldn't be big cost overruns. The French site meretmarine is very accurate; I trust there reporting that the Horizon is over budget. The MN is networked the the Fremms can carry Aster 30. There will be a Land atack and ASW Fremm in the French CBG.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 ASUW Fremm 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)















The French want to export the AAW Fremm which is smart. The Horizon doesn't have that big of an advantage in capablities compared to the AAW Fremm. They will get export Fremm orders which would lower the price per unit of the Fremms. The MN coud order more Fremms or they could use the savings on other projects. Like the MN. the RN and MM air defense doctrine has imperfections. The RN and MM use helos for AEW. They can transform the V-22 into a AEW platform, but it would cost much money, and take a long time to develop.

I want

[Spacearrow99]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG. The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval. DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy. The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

The French governement is pushing for the AWW Fremm. The project makes finanicial sense. The basic design of the AAW Fremm is set. They just need to add a 16 more vls, and upgrade the AAW Fremms computers. There shouldn't be big cost overruns. The French site meretmarine is very accurate; I trust there reporting that the Horizon is over budget. The MN is networked the the Fremms can carry Aster 30. There will be a Land atack and ASW Fremm in the French CBG.

probable Future French CBG:

CDG, 1 Land Attack Fremm, 1 AAW Fremm, 1 ASUW Fremm, 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR

Like the MN. the RN and MM air defense doctrine has imperfections. The RN and MM use helos for AEW. They can transform the V-22 into a AEW platform, but it would cost much money, and take a long time to develop. The French want to export the AAW Fremm which is smart. The Horizon doesn't have that big of an advantage in capabilities compared to the AAW Fremm. They will get export Fremm orders which would lower the price per unit of the Fremms. The MN could order more AAW Fremms or use the savings on other projects. The French Navy needs more large class oilers; they only has 4 Durance class fleet oilers. They will need to be replaced in the near future.

The French will pay a ton of money for new ships, equipment, and weapons over the next 15 to 20 years.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs

[contedicavour]

.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs

Nope, the confirmed FREMM orders are for the first batch of 8 ships (starting with the ASW variant). The confirmed Barracuda order is for 1 SSN.
The rest of the contract will have to be finetuned and the rumour is that 13 FREMM in all will be ordered to help pay for PA2 and Barracudas.

cheers

[harryriedl]

Nope, the confirmed FREMM orders are for the first batch of 8 ships (starting with the ASW variant). The confirmed Barracuda order is for 1 SSN.
The rest of the contract will have to be finetuned and the rumour is that 13 FREMM in all will be ordered to help pay for PA2 and Barracudas.

cheers

how many AOR are in French service and will more need to be procured for the PA2?
the FREMM procurement won't be helped by Sarko reducing the percentage of defense spending as well as TWO very expensive programs and adding another FREMM type of FREMM with associated R&D costs[and isn't as effective as the Horizon class] seems like madness to me:shudder

[kato]

how many AOR are in French service and will more need to be procured for the PA2?

Doubt they'll need more, the current support fleet was enough in times when they operated both Foch and Clemenceau still.

Current primary support ships are 4 Durance class AOR (5,200t fuel, 3,000t aviation fuel, 150t ammo, 350t cargo). A fifth ship of the same class, active when France still had two CBGs, was sold to Argentine. The Jules Verne ADH, a maintenance/light support ship, also occasionally sortied with the Foch CBG in the late 90s btw.

There was originally a replacement plan for the Durance class for 2008-2010 (Jane's), but i can't find much details right now. I would suspect that has been postponed, as it's not mentioned in the "Projet de loi de programmation militaire 2003–2008" either. Will probably be in the next 5-year plan (2009-2013), which the government is working on now.

[Spacearrow99]

All six of the Barracudas will be ordered; the MN has stated that six is limit, if current operational capabilties are to be kept. I leftout two very important and expensive procurement projects in my last post. An advanced, long-range version of the ASMP, known as ASMP-A or ASMP+, and M51 SLBM will enter service in 2010. With all of these big procurement projects, I don't see how Sarkozy can lower defense spending? Sarkozy has said, he would keep defense spending at 2% of GDP; it will increase in the coming because of the big procurement projects.

The MN may cut the total number of Fremms, but their DDGs are overworked. At this point, there're no concrete facts on the total Fremm numbers. The Horizon class is not as effective as the T-45 with Sampson radar.The MN doctine is totally different than the RN or MM; all three have there advantages and disadvantages.

The MN had 5 Durance class AORs when the Foch and Clemenceau were still operational.

[kato]

The MN had 5 Durance class AORs when the Foch and Clemenceau were still operational.

The Durance class is separated into three sub-classes:

Durance, a dedicated AOR (PRE), carrying 7,500t FFO, 1,500t diesel and 500t TR5 Avcat for aircraft
Meuse, a dedicated CBG AOR (PRE), carrying 5,000t FFO, 3,200t diesel and 1,800t TR5 Avcat for aircraft
Var, Somme and Marne, "command" AORs (BCR) with staff facilities accomodating 45 flag officers; as AOR, carrying 8,400t diesel (or 5,090t FFO and 3,310t diesel) and 1,050t TR5 Avcat for aircraft


Meuse has always been the only "CBG-dedicated" AOR in the MN, even when Durance was still around. Durance was assigned to the GASM (ASW group) from 1992 until she went into reserve 1997. Before that, she was assigned to the Mediterranean Squadron, until its dissolution in 1992.

[European]

For the last time,you can't compare MM and MN CBGs. The Mn has 3 E2Cs per CBG.
Why not? European navies are all comparable order of magnitude, more or less. You can compare RN, MM, MN or AE and you can say that MN is the best one. Probably, but the order of magnitude remains similar. At the opposite You can't compare the USNavy with any navy of the world.... The order of magnitude is too much huge.....
Actually Mn has 1 CBG, 3 E2C and the dream for a new carrier and a new CBG.

The AAW Fremm is a more flexibe design then Horizon; it will have A70 launchers that can be loaded with scalp naval.
The MMI Fremm will have A70 too, but the gouvernment has not uet decided if buy Scalp Naval.
The Fremm AAW will not have Scalp. The Fremm AVT (Ground attack) will have. The Fremm lacks of vls and you want to put Scalp insteed of Aster 30??? What kind of AAW will be with few AAW missiles and Scalp Naval???? :rolleyes:

DCN has stated that it can replace 2 of the first batch of normal Fremms with the two of AAW Fremms. The S1850 radar would make the Fremm very top heavy.

That's true, the S1850 is a good long range radar. It's a sin that Fremm AAW will not be fitted with S1850 cause there's no place for such a heavy radar on the Fremm.

The AAW Fremm will have 32 vls forward, and 16 aft.

Where exactly? There's no place for S1850 and you want to put also 16 more vls???




The French will pay a ton of money for new ships, equipment, and weapons over the next 15 to 20 years.

Confirmed orders:

17- 19 Fremms (AAW, ASW, LA) 6 Barracuda SSN, 27 NH90, 230 Scalp naval, 20 Rafales

Probable Orders:

PA2, new AORs

Yeaaaahhh, why not? Do you remember the 24 frigates George Leygues of 1980 later reduced at 6-8????????
At the moment France payed only 8 Fremm.

Dreams for a PA2 at today.

Is that true that the french Horizon will not have Sadral/Mistral cause lack of money, so nothing as CIWS at the moment?
The 2 MM Horizon has already the 3rd 76mm has CIWS mounted.

[kato]

Yeaaaahhh, why not? Do you remember the 24 frigates George Leygues of 1980 later reduced at 6-8????????


Remember the post-Vietnam French building spree (mid/late 50s to early/mid 60s)?
The 45 ships of the EE, ER and AE escort series' program (18 DE + 18 corvettes + 9 FFL) all built during those 10 years?

Which actually all materialized in the numbers planned, and more advanced than originally planned.

[Spacearrow99]

The MN has the 3 E-2Cs per deployment (will be increased to 4). The RN and MM would need atleast 3 or 4 AWW DDGs per CBG to eqaul the scanning range of the E-2Cs. They want have 3 to 4 AWW DDGs per CGB per group The French government will announce their decision on the PA2 in the Spring of 2008; its very likely the they will approve the project.

Yes, S1850 is a good long range radar, but the Fremm doesn't need it. I haven't seen any evidence that disproves Thales's data. We don't know exactly were the 16 aft vls will be placed yet. They will ony have 4 AAW DDGs.

There,re many reasons why I think there want be huge Fremm cuts. The Fremm's point defense capabilities are excellent. The MN's DDG fleet is very old and expensive to maintain. Fremms will have smaller crews, and there will be export orders for them lowering their price per unit. Two or three of the Fremms may be cut thats it. They have to DCNS busy. Sarkozy has been complaining to other EU member states on how little they spend on defense. I highly doubt Sarkozy will cut defense spending.

The Fremms wiill never operate alone. They can mix their weapons for missions. I know nothing about possible Sadral cuts to the Horizons. The Scalp Naval has been ordered check the article.

Le marché des Scalp Naval notifié à MBDA 08/01/2007 meretmarine

[kato]

I know nothing about possible Sadral cuts to the Horizons.

He is correct though. There were originally two Sadral planned on the hangar. The first was cut to accomodate a second jammer, the second has not been acquired yet due to funding problems (at least as of October 2006 (http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=102722)).

Btw, to get back to European's cost question, the official budget report (http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/12/budget/plf2007/a3367-tV.asp) says 2.033 billion for the entire French Horizon program without PAAMS, which is the same number Mer et Marine quotes in that 2007 article.

[Systems Adict]

...You can compare RN, MM, MN or AE and you can say that MN is the best one.


:dunce

...Sorry to be Johnny dimwit here chaps, but any chance of actually using the Full terminology just once, then putting the acronym in brackets next to it. I've read thru the thread & it's been like that since the 1st post.

I'm not trying to pick holes, or ruin the thread (as you've got a fair discussion going which will continue for a bit yet...), it's just I use T & FLA's (Three & Four Letter Acronyms), all bleeding day at work & trying to decipher/differentiate what each one means in comparison to what I use the same letters at work for does make reading the thread a bit difficult.


:help



Ta much


Systems Adict

[Spacearrow99]

The RN is the best navy out of the three because of its oveall assets. The RN has more SSN, and more capable major surface combatants than the MN; the MN is not that far behind. The MM has the third best fleet in the EU.



The Sadral launchers should be installed on the Horizons. They're carrier battle group AAW destroyers; they need a extra layer of protection.


RN- Royal Navy
MN-French Navy
MM-Italian Navy

[contedicavour]

I don't really care about ranking navies (besides, on which criteria ?), but there is a considerable risk of going top-heavy. I'll explain myself : with the UK, France and Italy simultaneously investing heavily in aircraft carriers and powerful DDGs there isn't enough money for the workhorses of all navies, ie the multi-purpose FFGs.
Rumours here are mounting that not more than 8-10 FREMMS will be built in France, in Italy firm orders for 2 ships will be added to 4 more (and then who knows for sure), and the RN is stuck with old Type 22s and with Type 23s that are weak on AAW and that will be old around 2025...

cheers

[kato]

there is a considerable risk of going top-heavy. I'll explain myself : with the UK, France and Italy simultaneously investing heavily in aircraft carriers and powerful DDGs there isn't enough money for the workhorses of all navies, ie the multi-purpose FFGs.

Personally, i already see the FREMMs as "top-heavy" - consider that these "frigates" will be larger than the destroyers they'll replace (Georges Leygues) or supplant (De la Penne). Especially since France wanted to replace the 1250t avisos with them as well.
Italy at least keeps smaller stuff, as i understand it.

A 8-ship FREMM ASW/LA class for France (fit as needed) wouldn't be that bad - replacing the 9 current ASW destroyers (plus two AAW to replace the Cassards).
As long as something smaller/cheaper to replace the Avisos (and the Lafayettes) could be found.

[harryriedl]

Personally, i already see the FREMMs as "top-heavy" - consider that these "frigates" will be larger than the destroyers they'll replace (Georges Leygues) or supplant (De la Penne). Especially since France wanted to replace the 1250t avisos with them as well.
Italy at least keeps smaller stuff, as i understand it.

A 8-ship FREMM ASW/LA class for France (fit as needed) wouldn't be that bad - replacing the 9 current ASW destroyers (plus two AAW to replace the Cassards).
As long as something smaller/cheaper to replace the Avisos (and the Lafayettes) could be found.
aren't the Lafayettes meant to be a partial replacement for the Avisos [colonial frigerts] i know their an order of magintude larger but don't they do the same job ?

[European]

If really the french Horizons will be fit without Sadral, then there will be a great damage, cause that means that the french Horizon AAW will lack the CIWS that is a pure....... no comment.
The italians have already installed the 3rd 76mm as CIWS on board their 2 Horizons.

In Italy Fremm will not replace De La Penne.
Rumors that due to high costs of the 2nd aircraft carrier, the number of Fremm in France will be reduced to 10 out of 17. :rolleyes:
If the MN will cut the number of 50% the costs for units will rise and the MN will pay their Fremm a cost similar to the italians. The difference will be that italian Fremm are better equipped and better fitted.

It'a worth noting that for Fremm programme the 2 parts (Italy and France) signed an agreement to charge the cost of R&D of fremm project, over the first 2 of each navy.
That means that the first 2 fremm for Italy and the first 2 fremm for France will be the most expensive and will be charged of all the R&D cost of the project.

[kato]

aren't the Lafayettes meant to be a partial replacement for the Avisos [colonial frigerts] i know their an order of magintude larger but don't they do the same job ?

Officially, the FREMM project replaces the F67 and F70 ASW destroyers and A69 avisos. Effectively though, by the time the FREMM project would be complete (2020+), the 5 Lafayettes will be between 20 and 25 years old, and the MN would already have to think about replacing them 10 years or so down the line.

The 5 Lafayettes pretty much replaced the first 7 decommissioned Avisos, but there are still 9 of them in service - and pretty active, in a variety of roles in which they are rather useful (like escort roles in certain areas like the Red Sea, and similar-risk areas). These 9 that are still in service are now between 23 and 28 years old, so they'll need a further replacement within the next 10-15 years minimum (i.e. somewhat in the same timeframe as the FREMM project). Meaning a 6-7 ship FF project on the lines of the Lafayette project at least.

In Italy Fremm will not replace De La Penne.

That's why i said supplant. I know that the second Horizon pair is supposed to be the replacement for the De la Pennes.

[Spacearrow99]

The French DGG fleet is overworked because they are lacking units. That's why the MN wants to replace the remaining 69 avisos with Fremms. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. The MN is going to probably order 13 or 14 Fremms; those figures don't include the AAW Fremms. The MN will order the second batch of Fremms, but the majority of the third batch will be cut.

There're cheaper options for the replacements of the 69 avisos. I think a combination of the Gowind designs would be really good replacements for the 69 avisos.

Bulgaria is finalizing it's contract negotiations with DCNS for 4 Gowind 200s. If the Bulgarians sign the contract? The French government will opt for the Gowinds to replace the cut Fremms.

[European]

The French DGG fleet is overworked because they are lacking units. That's why the MN wants to replace the remaining 69 avisos with Fremms. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. The MN is going to probably order 13 or 14 Fremms; those figures don't include the AAW Fremms. The MN will order the second batch of Fremms, but the majority of the third batch will be cut.

There're cheaper options for the replacements of the 69 avisos. I think a combination of the Gowind designs would be really good replacements for the 69 avisos.

Bulgaria is finalizing their contract negotiations with DCNS for 4 Gowind 200s. If the Bulgarians sign the contract? The French government will opt for the Gowinds to replace the cut Fremms.

It seems that due to high cost of the 2nd aircraft carrier, the Fremm will be 8-10 in MN.
Very bad idea to save money without put a CIWS on Horizons. Such expensives ships can not be under protected. At least the italian have their 76mm Super Rapido with the special ammo 'Davide' for short range AA defense.

[Spacearrow99]

I haven't seen any French government information or media articles that confirms those rumours.The French DGG fleet is really overworked; the MN cannot maintain their operation levels with 8 to 10 Fremms. The total number of France's major surface combantants would be 21 or 22 when you add the 13 to 14 Fremms. I have talked to several French naval offciers; the MN will be pushing hard for their Fremms.

The French governement will cut the Fremm numbers, but there want be drastic cuts. Sarkozy is championing economic development. I doubt his governement would make huge Fremm cuts. The Gowind designs are complete. Five or six Gowinds would be good replacements for the 69 avisos. I think we should know about possible cuts, sometime shortly after the PA2, announcement in the spring of 2008.

[harryriedl]

Officially, the FREMM project replaces the F67 and F70 ASW destroyers and A69 avisos. Effectively though, by the time the FREMM project would be complete (2020+), the 5 Lafayettes will be between 20 and 25 years old, and the MN would already have to think about replacing them 10 years or so down the line.

The 5 Lafayettes pretty much replaced the first 7 decommissioned Avisos, but there are still 9 of them in service - and pretty active, in a variety of roles in which they are rather useful (like escort roles in certain areas like the Red Sea, and similar-risk areas). These 9 that are still in service are now between 23 and 28 years old, so they'll need a further replacement within the next 10-15 years minimum (i.e. somewhat in the same timeframe as the FREMM project). Meaning a 6-7 ship FF project on the lines of the Lafayette project at least.



That's why i said supplant. I know that the second Horizon pair is supposed to be the replacement for the De la Pennes.
was their any reason why the Laffayets didn't replace all the Avisos [it just seems a bit half baked replaceing half and keeping the others in service]

[contedicavour]

One important detail : the French may call DDGs the Leygues but they are just ASW FFGs perfectly comparable with Maestrale and Type 23.

I agree that it is likely that some sort of Gowind will replace the remaining Avisos, thus making up for the now almost certain cut of several French FREMMs.

cheers

[Spacearrow99]

During an interview, in the Summer 2007; Herve Morin, the French minister of defense clearly stated that France's defense effort would be maintained around 2%.(lefigaro). Envisaged programs would increase investment by approximately 40%, during the next six years; these programs would bring French defense spending above 2% of GDP. (lefigaro)

The new French military law "la loi de programmation militaire 2009-2014" will take the French military through the next six years. This law will be published sometime in March 2008.

It seems that procurement spending will be increased by 40%, during the next six years. All 3 major French armed forces branches will be fighting for procurement funds, but it looks like the MN will have a pro defense government.

[contedicavour]

During an interview, in the Summer 2007; Herve Morin, the French minister of defense clearly stated that France's defense effort would be maintained around 2%.(lefigaro). Envisaged programs would increase investment by approximately 40%, during the next six years; these programs would bring French defense spending above 2% of GDP. (lefigaro)

The new French military law "la loi de programmation militaire 2009-2014" will take the French military through the next six years. This law will be published sometime in March 2008.

It seems that procurement spending will be increased by 40%, during the next six years. All 3 major French armed forces branches will be fighting for procurement funds, but it looks like the MN will have a pro defense government.

Yes but this is all too optimistic. Several times the pluri-annual defence spending programme has been cut on a yearly basis. Don't forget that the budget deficit is tight and that the GDP is growing less than forecasted...
and , last but not least, the cost of some programmes such as CVF carry a high risk of overspending. Hence the rumours about cuts in numbers of FREMMs for example.

cheers

[neil]

Are the French, like the Brits, heading towards a situation where they will be able to deploy only one carrier group and one amphibious group at a time.. and while doing this, they won't have enough surface combatants and submarines left to fulfill their normal patrol tasks? ..or will their surface fleet be sufficient do accomplish all this?

It seems to me that a buy of 10 odd FREMM's wont be enough..

[kato]

Yes but this is all too optimistic. Several times the pluri-annual defence spending programme has been cut on a yearly basis. Don't forget that the budget deficit is tight and that the GDP is growing less than forecasted...


Indeed. Here (http://www.senat.fr/leg/tas02-049.html) is the last (2003-2008) defence plan, from which the longterm number 17 of the FMM/FREMM program is coming (as well as 4 Horizons, 120 Tiger helos, 28,200 FELIN sets etc pp).
We can see how reliable such defence plans are...

I'm still curious about what the 2009-2014 plan will entail though ;)

[Spacearrow99]

Well, Ségolène Royal is not in power,so you have to be optimistic. France's current governent is pro defense. Like I said, the number of Fremms will be cut. Fillon, has stated that current Defence Spending Review would involve tough choices. The French Navy and Air force are more important than the French Army in today's environment. The French Army could receive larege procurement cuts.

The Horizons are well overbudget. The two Fredas will very good replacements. The contract of the next 4 Fremms is to be signed in 2011; the contract for the last 5 in 2013. DCNS has some carrier construction experience now, after constructing the CDG. The PA2 should have fewer problems, but there will be some overspending.

If the MN only builds 10 Fremms? The ASW Fremms can launch Scalp Naval. They will have 16, A43 launchers and 16, A70 launchers. The AVT probably would be scrapped, but they may be equipped with 32, A70 launchers. In this scenario, the La fayettes should be refitted with ASW systems and VL Crotale. Thales and DCNS hope that the DGA finances VL Crotale tests in 2009. Smaller presence vessels may be constructed. I'm not deluding myself. If a reduction of the FREMMs is actually considered, the money thus “saved” will not be inevitably reallocated with defense or in any case replace the Fremms with other projects. I don't think Sarkozy would make such drastic Fremm cuts. Sarko has announced that France will have deficits atleast till 2010.

This would make me happy.

2 Horizons
2 Fredas
10-12 Fremms
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
6 Gowind 200s

[Spacearrow99]

Three George Legyues class frigates: the Dupleix, Montcalm, and Jean de Vienna are each equipped with 2 Sadrals launchers. The MN may replace one of the frigates Sadrals with simbads. The Sadrals would be placed on the Horizons; the simbads form the Orage, would replace Sadrals on the stripped George Legyues frigate.

[contedicavour]

This would make me happy.

2 Horizons
2 Fredas
10-12 Fremms
5 Upgraded La Fayettes
6 Gowind 200s

Agree. This sounds reasonable and fundable.
I wonder though whether all 60 Rafales Marine can be funded... if not I'd rather keep the Lafayette as they are and arm very lightly Gowinds. The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.

cheers

[kato]

The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.


Plus the 10 P400 small OPVs, the 3 OPV54, and the other two small (Sterne, Grebe) and one big OPV (Albatros), all of which are relatively new.

[harryriedl]

Agree. This sounds reasonable and fundable.
I wonder though whether all 60 Rafales Marine can be funded... if not I'd rather keep the Lafayette as they are and arm very lightly Gowinds. The navy also has by the way the Floreal big OPVHs.

cheers

i thought it was cut to 51 aircrafts to pay for upgrades to the Rafs ages ago

[swerve]

i thought it was cut to 51 aircrafts to pay for upgrades to the Rafs ages ago

No, a production order for 59 aircraft for both air force & navy was cut to 51 (officially deferred to a later order, not cancelled) to pay for AESA radar development.

[Spacearrow99]

The CDG will embark 24 to 25 rafales, and the PA2 will embark 32 rafales. Sixty rafales will be ordered; the last rafale will enter service in 2016. However, unavailabilities for maintenance and breakdowns, pilot training and the estimated losses over 30 years of service force the us to envisage a capacity close to twice higher than the number of machines having to be projected. (meretmarine)

In the 10 Fremm scenario, the La Fayettes should be uprgraded. They have the place for ASW systems. The MN surface fleet is overworked. The upgraded La Fayettes would lessen the MN's ASW vessels workload. The MN could order 6 Gowind 120s for its presence role.

The MN has 24 dedicated OPV vessels. The MN also has two Armais class OPVs.

[European]

So?
MN will cut the number of Fremm 17->10?
40% less?

[Spacearrow99]

I think we should know about possible Fremm cuts, sometime shortly after the PA2 announcement in March 2008.

[kato]

The MN could order 6 Gowind 120s for its presence role.


Or expand the OPV fleet with a heavier-armed Floreal variant... (would be hell of a lot cheaper).

Add a second pair of Exocet, a sonar and fire-control radar and maybe some tubes, and install a pair of VL Mica containers somewhere along the superstructure (maybe going down a bit on the RIB/LCVP load instead). Six ships for let's say €1.5 billion should be doable.

But of course that would be neither hyper-modern nor sexy...

[Spacearrow99]

The MN would want vessels with low radar signatures. DCN has claimed that a completely battle-ready version Gowind 200, would cost 200 million Euros. I don't believe the company's statement. There would be many cost overruns, but the Gowind 120 should cost much less than the two other Gowind types.

The Gowind 120 doesn't have any ASW systems; its equipped with mine avoidance sonar.( a full sonar could be added) The Gowind 120 basic armament includes a 57 mm gun and VL Mica or Aster 15. The DGA probably will finance the VL Crotale tests for 2009. The corvettes probably would be built sometime after 2014. That would give engineers, all the time they need to intergate VL Crotale into the Gowinds weapon systems. The range of the Gowind 120, is 2000 nm at 15 kts. Export orders would lower the price of the Gowinds. Bulgaria and DCNS are negotiating a deal for 4 Gowind 200s.

[Spacearrow99]

The First batch of Fremms cost is 3.5 billion Euros; the last nine vessels esimated cost is 2.95 billions euros. The DGA is hopes that construction cost of the PA2 want exceed 2.5 billion euros. The Fremm batch I esimated cost per ship is 440 ME. The Fremm batch II estimated cost per ship is 330 ME.

If the French government cuts the second batch? The Fremm contract has forfeit clauses in the event of cancellation. It would be necessary to add several tens of million of euros to the bill of the first Fremms. (meretmarine)

The Sarkozy government is pro defense, so they will listen to the MN. They will probably order the 5 Fremms is 2011, and cancel the last order in 2013. If the MN puts ASW systems and VL Crotale on the La Fayettes, they would have 21 ASW, AVT, and AAW vessels.

If the Sarkozy government only builds 8 Fremm? Sarko, Fillon, and Morin would be as naive as Ségolène Royal. The idea of borrowing surface combatants from other navies is stupid. The Fremms will protect French strategic submarines, and air and amphibious groups. The frigates will also have a presence role. (meretmarine)

[Spacearrow99]

France will launch the PA2 project in 2008. (meretmaine) France's military budget will be increased next year.

[contedicavour]

France will launch the PA2 project in 2008. (meretmaine) France's military budget will be increased next year.

The order for the carrier is good news indeed.

However (there's always a "however" ;) ) the spending allocation (engagements) is up by an impressive 0.5% vs year ago :rolleyes:
and there are no commitments to spending for more Barracuda SSNs other than the 1st of class (to be named Suffren like the old destroyer).

We'll have to wait for the White Book on defence matters to see what impact the spending on the CVF will have on the other naval programmes.

cheers

[Spacearrow99]

The Sarkozy governement is pro defense; "Peace thru strength" was one of the main points of Sarko's speech a the UN. I don't see any large MN procurement cuts.

[Spacearrow99]

Bulgaria will finalize the neogiations for the 4 Gowind 200s before the end of this year. (meretmarine) The total contract would be 900 ME; 225 ME per ship isn't that bad.

The First batch Fremm Schedule:

Name Start Launched Delivery Type

Aquitaine 2007 2009 2011 ASM

Normandy 2008 2009 2011 ASM

Provence 2009 2010 2012 ASM

Brittany 2009 2010 2012 ASM

Auvergne 2010 2011 2013 AVT

Languedoc 2010 2011 2013 AVT

Alsace 2011 2012 2014 ASM

Lorraine 2011 2012 2014 ASM

The next two vessels could be AVTs or Fredas; they would be delivered in 2017. The good thing about the first batch schedule, is that the program want end before the next French presidential election.

[Spacearrow99]

Hervé Morin states that some procurement programs will be cut, but the Fremm cut rumors are false.


http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/cr-cdef/07-08/c0708001.asp

[Spacearrow99]

Probable Future French CBG:

CDG or PA2, 1 Forbin, 2 ASW Fremm, 1 SSN (Rubis), 1 AOR (BCR)

The CDG is armed with 32 Aster 15, and 2 Sadral launchers for self defense. The PA2 will probably be armed with 16 V L Mica and 2 Sadral launchers.


Probable Future French AG:

1 Mistral, 1 Foudre, 1 Freda, 1 LA Fremm, 1 ASM Fremm 1 AOR (BCR)


Both Fremm versions will have hull sonar and MU 90 light torpedoes. The ASW version will also contain a towed sonar. The ASW version will carry 16, A43 vls and 16, A70 vls. The 16, A43 vls on the LA can be removed, and 16, more A70 vls can be added.

Three George Legyues class frigates: the Dupleix, Montcalm, and Jean de Vienna are each equipped with 2 Sadrals launchers. The MN may replace one of the frigates Sadrals with simbads. The Sadrals would be placed on the Horizons; the simbads form the Orage, would replace Sadrals on the stripped George Legyues frigate. The other Sadrals should be put on the Mistrals.

Three or four ASM frigates are ported at Brest; inorder, to protect the 4 SSBNs ported there. The MN wouldn't be able to protect the 4 SSBNs with just 8 Fremms. The majority of the Fremms will get built; If they don't the La Fayettes will also get ASW systems during their midlife upgrade. The Gowinds are two small and short ranged for the MN leaders' tastes.

French Army generals fear that their procurement projects will be cut, They believe the procurement dollars will go to French Air force and Navy. (lefigaro)

I don't have any information about Barracuda procurement timetables. Morin explains some of his procurement thinking in the piece below.


http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13...8/c0708001.asp

[contedicavour]

Good idea to post Parliamentary Defence committee debriefings.
Morin has been however extremely cautious though : on one side he refutes rumours on cuts, on the other hand he specifies the review of programmes will be finalized only early 2008 and that until then nothing is definitive :rolleyes:

cheers

[Spacearrow99]

Morin is taking a balanced approach to the review of programmes. Morin refuted rumours that the whole second batch of Fremms will be cut; he said that certain programs will undergo cuts, others will be launched according to the operational needs.

[contedicavour]

Morin is taking a balanced approach to the review of programmes. Morin refuted rumours that the whole second batch of Fremms will be cut; he said that certain programs will undergo cuts, others will be launched according to the operational needs.

Yes but that remains a very confusing sentence by Morin... nobody really believed the FREMMs would be cut down to 8 ships. Well informed rumours talked about 13 FREMMs instead of 17 (or 19 if you add the 2 AAW versions), ie the 2nd batch will anyway exist, but be cut.

cheers

[Spacearrow99]

The production of Barracudas and Fremms is vital for DCNS in 2020s. DCNS would've to potentially cut over 10,000 jobs, if the second batch of the Fremms were cut. So, the second batch of the Fremm will be built, but it may or may not be cut. I think the cancellation clause is 10% of each unit cut. I said, several months ago that the MN would fight for their Fremms.

They are huge upgrade over the current ASM frigates. The effective range of the Herkales against certain types of targets (supersonic CMs, etc...) is unknown. The Freda will have 32 or 40 vls; it will probably be identical to the Fremm LA. I hope that some of the AVTs get cancelled, and more Fredas are built.

[Spacearrow99]

There're reports that Morroco has ordered a Fremm? Sarkozy is making a three day visit to Morroco, starting on October 22. The proposed deal may or may not be confirmed during the state visit. The article says that the Greeks may order up to ten AAW Fremms; the Germans own the Greek shipyards, so Greeks may order 3 or 4 frigates. Saudi Arabia is also a potential future customer. (meretmarine)

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105815

Fremm

ASM
~ Towed sonar.
~ Helicopter ASM
~ 19 MU 90 Light torpedoes

The ASM want have the systems to fire Scalp Naval. These frigates will be in CBGs, protecting SSBNs, and AGs; two of their major missions don't require Scalp Naval. The ASMs will be with the LA Fremms in AGs, so Scalp Naval fire systems aren' t needed.


AVT
~ Transport helicopters.
~ Housing for commandos
~ Vessel for commandos
~ Launching systems for Scalp Naval

[contedicavour]

Indeed a very interesting development.
Morocco had to make up for the refusal to order Rafales, and the order for TGV trains and the MOU (memorandum of understanding) over a FREMM FFG constitute the answer.
It will still take time to transform the MoU into a firm order though. Morocco's current navy has a Descubierta lightly armed corvette (it hardly ever embarks the Exocets and the Aspide launcher hasn't been used in a while), a Floreal large OPV, a big ex USN LST and a dozen FACs. A FREMM would represent a huge step forward, but would it make sense ?

cheers

[contedicavour]

Oh I was forgetting : yesterday's edition of La Tribune newspaper states that the FREMM for Morocco could be taken out of the 8 FREMMs of France's 1st batch.

cheers

[kato]

Morocco's current navy has a Descubierta lightly armed corvette (it hardly ever embarks the Exocets and the Aspide launcher hasn't been used in a while), a Floreal large OPV, a big ex USN LST and a dozen FACs.

Large Stuff:
- 1 Descubierta (1,480 tons, nc Exocet, Aspide, 76mm, 2x 40mm); late 70s
- 2 Floreal (2,950 tons, 2 Exocet, 76mm, Panther helo); early 00s

FACs:
- 4 Lazaga (425 tons, 4 Exocet, 76mm, 40mm); mid 70s
- 2 PR72 (445 tons, ffbnw Exocet, 76mm, 40mm); mid 70s

Used in Fisheries Protection:
- 4 Osprey MkII (475 tons, 40mm); mid 80s
- 6 Cormoran (425 tons, 40mm); mid 80s
- 5 OPV64 (580 tons, 2x40mm); mid 90s

Amphibious Forces:
- 1 Newport LST, 60s?
- 3 BATRAL LSM, early 80s

Imo, if Morocco actually gets a FREMM, it would be a rather downgraded (cheaper) system in comparison to what France and Italy get. And, yes, it wouldn't make much sense. :confused:

[harryriedl]

Large Stuff:
- 1 Descubierta (1,480 tons, nc Exocet, Aspide, 76mm, 2x 40mm); late 70s
- 2 Floreal (2,950 tons, 2 Exocet, 76mm, Panther helo); early 00s

FACs:
- 4 Lazaga (425 tons, 4 Exocet, 76mm, 40mm); mid 70s
- 2 PR72 (445 tons, ffbnw Exocet, 76mm, 40mm); mid 70s

Used in Fisheries Protection:
- 4 Osprey MkII (475 tons, 40mm); mid 80s
- 6 Cormoran (425 tons, 40mm); mid 80s
- 5 OPV64 (580 tons, 2x40mm); mid 90s

Amphibious Forces:
- 1 Newport LST, 60s?
- 3 BATRAL LSM, early 80s

Imo, if Morocco actually gets a FREMM, it would be a rather downgraded (cheaper) system in comparison to what France and Italy get. And, yes, it wouldn't make much sense. :confused:
so am i:confused: it would seem to me that Morocco would be more of a Godwind or a Laffayet customer rather than a FREMM customer

[contedicavour]

so am i:confused: it would seem to me that Morocco would be more of a Godwind or a Laffayet customer rather than a FREMM customer

Absolutely, a Gowind corvette would make more sense. Or even second hand Lafayette if the French Navy needs money to finance as many FREMM as possible in the coming years.

cheers

[kato]

I'd think they'd actually be a likely candidates for second-hand D'Estienne d'Orves avisos from France. Knock-down the armament a bit, and the basic hulls would be good for another 10-15 years.

Say two pairs, decommissioning the Descubierta, and moving the Lazagas to a light FPB role.

Hand 'em over on a cheap deal for like say €40-50 million each including a refurbishment, and it would be a good deal for both sides - for Morocco as well, as these Avisos are apparently both extremely economical and, despite their small size, capable of high-endurance overseas missions as well. Would be something that made sense, anyway.

[Spacearrow99]

Morocco should buy new vessels from Constructions Mecaniques de Normandie (CMN) of Cherbourg, France; They designed the UAE's Baynunah class corvettes. CMN has a large selection of fast attack craft, corvettes, and OPV designs.

http://www.cmn-group.com/pageLibre00010ad2.html

[Spacearrow99]

The Moroccan Fremm will replace the Descubierta Class corvette. The Fremm has been ordered, according to Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, the CEO of DCNS. Nine Fremms have been ordered; the Moroccn Fremm will follow the French Fremm Design as closely as possible.

http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=105848

[Grand Danois]

Good news for the FREMM programme. :D I get the impression that the Morrocan frigates are on top of the builds for the MN?

[Spacearrow99]

Morroco has ordered one Fremm. The Morrocans wanted to upgrade their Navy's capabilities, with a destroyer class vessel.

[Grand Danois]

Morroco has ordered one Fremm. The Morrocans wanted to upgrade their Navy's capabilities, with a destroyer class vessel.

Oops. One it is. I don't know where I got two from... Anyhow, now the numbers add up. ;)

[European]

The flagship of Morocco is a spanish build corvette and they want to replace it with a destroyer? So, why Morocco bought a multipurpose fregate as Fremm?
:confused: