Lockhead Martin to sell weapons to India...

[dabrownguy]

I read in a article that lockhead wanted to sell India f-16 to replace their mig-21 and offered them a chance in the jsf project. Is this true. I also heard China no longer wants to fund the Pak-Fa project, will China be sold Pak-Fa? Futher more what do think India's future af will look like?
My oppinon on what the INAF will look like:
LCA=200+
MCA=100?
Pak-Fa=50+
Mig-29=50+
Su-30=200+
Mariage 2000=200+
BackFire=?

[WebMaster]

I read in a article

Post the article.

[Oqaab]

Yeah, Ive read those articles too in Jang newspaper. Lockheed Martin offered F-16s to India and also offered them to join the JSF project. But India may not join the JSF project coz it is currently working on 2 fifth generation fighters, MCA and PAK FA.

China is negotiating for ~40 (I dont remember correctly) Su-34 fighters. They have their J-12 project running and the aircraft will be inducted 2012. So I dont think China will ask for PAK FA when they have J-12.

[gf0012-aust]

Until posted (from a credible western source) I find it hard to believe the above.

Both India and Pakistan are back on the legitimate list for weapons sales due to the war on terror.

Although Lockheed may see an entry point due to the Orion P#C purchase, I cannot see them creating another spot for JSF. mainly because
:regional imbalance
:concerns about destablising pakistan
:creating an obvious disconnection point for China and Russia

Australia had a very difficult time with India when we sold Pakistan our Mirages. A JSF would tip the scales too much and that would not be seen as very smart.

Although India is a core Russian partner, there are some subtle moves happening to reduce dependance on Russian platforms due to high maintenance and support issues. Indias closeness to Russia (as in funding a lot of current Sukhoi and ALI development) would be seen as much too close for LM's, and the State Depts comfort.

India may be bidding for piece work in JSF construction, but the obligation for that work has to go to the existing members first. IIRC the english have a veto right on some issues, BAE would be very uncomfortable about Indias relationship with Sukhoi. (and BAE are the first foreign "prime")

I'd need to see some of my own sources delivering feeds on this before I accepted it as legitimate.

[Oqaab]

:regional imbalance

Ah, they were the ones who played their role in creating this imbalance by not suppling F-16s to Pakistan.

[gf0012-aust]

:regional imbalance

Ah, they were the ones who played their role in creating this imbalance by not suppling F-16s to Pakistan.

Yes, I know, but if i went back into every detail you would have to create a new web page.. ;)

I was trying to keep it within a short framing point.... I was assuming that everyone in here would know of the F16 issues...

[Su_37]

Until posted (from a credible western source) I find it hard to believe the above.

Both India and Pakistan are back on the legitimate list for weapons sales due to the war on terror.

Although Lockheed may see an entry point due to the Orion P#C purchase, I cannot see them creating another spot for JSF. mainly because
:regional imbalance
:concerns about destablising pakistan
:creating an obvious disconnection point for China and Russia

Australia had a very difficult time with India when we sold Pakistan our Mirages. A JSF would tip the scales too much and that would not be seen as very smart.

Although India is a core Russian partner, there are some subtle moves happening to reduce dependance on Russian platforms due to high maintenance and support issues. Indias closeness to Russia (as in funding a lot of current Sukhoi and ALI development) would be seen as much too close for LM's, and the State Depts comfort.

India may be bidding for piece work in JSF construction, but the obligation for that work has to go to the existing members first. IIRC the english have a veto right on some issues, BAE would be very uncomfortable about Indias relationship with Sukhoi. (and BAE are the first foreign "prime")

I'd need to see some of my own sources delivering feeds on this before I accepted it as legitimate.



Well i don;t forget to mention about Australia''s Anti India role ,

- They given Subs to Pak.
- They gives Planes .
- Ausitraila's Marinetime plane spys on INS DELHI during its south ASIA visit. this upset New delhi promted to recall defence attache and also asked australian one to leave india.

- Last straw was when india done Nuclear explosions, Ausitrali's Prime Minister Mr. John put huge cry , this promoted New delhi to cancel all contacts and also call of Navy excersise.

I don;t think India and Australia enjoy good relations at all.,

Well now recent US foreign policy is now based in INDIA , China , and Russia .

Infact this is true that US offered F16C , Herculis and JSF to india and here is the link ,,,,GF..


Judging by the number of exhibitions and representatives at the recent Aero India 2003 international airspace show in in Bangalore, India is the fair maiden whom everyone wants to romance. According to estimates, India imports US$1.5 billion worth of military hardware every year. Since 1960, the country has received $22.8 billion worth of weapons, and the sum may increase by $10 billion over the next seven years. And one of the most avid suitors is Russia.

Russia's display was twice as large as last year. Almost 60 Russian companies exhibited around 300 products. Russian efforts are understandable when one considers that aviation accounts for almost 75 percent of Russian arms exports. Most of it is sold to India, China, and Southeast Asia. As all major and potential customers attend the Air India 2003 expo, the exhibition is even more important than those in France or Great Britain.

As noted in the Russian business newspaper Vremya MN, this is probably the first time that the Russian military-industrial complex has displayed so many planes and helicopters abroad. The Sukhoi exhibit includes virtually the whole range of export models: SU-27SK, SU-30MK, SU-35, SU-33 naval aircraft, SU-49 combat training planes, and the SU-32 fighter-bomber. The MiG is showing a modified MiG-29M2 and MiG-AT combat training plane. The KAMOV and MIL enterprises are displaying a broad range: from the KA-31 to the KA-50 Black Shark to the MI-28N (night helicopter) and a whole series of modified MI-35s.

SU-30MKI planes from the Indian Air Force participated in the show. Even the Russian military does not have these fighters.

Russian and Indian experts discussed a project to establish a joint venture for building a new Russian-Indian transport plane based on the Il-214 multipurpose transport aircraft. The meeting was attended by representatives of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited aircraft-building corporation (HAL), Russia's Irkut research and production corporation, the Ilyushin aircraft building complex and the Rosoboronexport state arms trader.

And Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes announced that a contract to pass over the Admiral Gorshkov heavy aircraft carrier to India would be signed in the near future.

These sales and transfers follow significant cooperation between Russia and India. They already have established joint ventures in work on new weapons systems. The Reutov company and the Defense Research Directorate of India have set up the Bramos company. It has already designed a supersonic anti-ship missile with a range of 300 kilometers. The missile is a modification of the Onyx/Yakhont Russian missile, with its guidance system and computer designed by Indian specialists. The Russian and Indian navies will receive the first missiles of this type in 2004.

The Irkut company and HAL have signed a pre-contract agreement for the licensed production of some parts of SU-30MKIs in India. New Delhi is considering over 350 projects in the sphere of military-technical cooperation at present.

But while Russia may be among the most fervent arms seller to India, it is hardly the only one. Another is Israel, which also has significant ties with India. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited together with Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd showed HAL Advanced Light Helicopter (DHRUV) demonstrator, equipped with IAIs Integrated Avionics Package for helicopters.

IAI is delivering $300 million worth of unmanned aerial vehicles to India and advanced negotiations have been going on to supply Phalcon spy planes to New Delhi. Another Israeli firm, Tadiran Communications, which specializes in military communications, is also providing millions of dollars worth of equipment to New Delhi.

Israel Military Industries plans to collaborate with India's defense ministry and will open an office in New Delhi to boost arms sales estimated at $1 billion. While IMI did not provide details about possible deals with Indian defense companies, it estimated potential arms sales to India at $1 billion, Israel's leading business daily Globes has reported.

Other Israeli arms deals with India include Barak ship point missile defense system and Elta Electronics Industries' Green Pine missile detection radar. And artillery producer Soltam Systems announced it would supply tens of millions of dollars' worth of artillery to the Indian army.

But the newest, and potentially most significant suitor is the United States. In the aftermath of September 11, the US government has sought to minimize its past differences with India, a country banned from US weapons sales in 1998 after India conducted a nuclear-arms test, and to instead strengthen military ties between the two countries.

US Ambassador Robert Blackwill, speaking at the opening of the US pavilion at the air show, noted that since President George W Bush lifted sanctions in 2001, US military sales to India "jumped from near zero" to more than $190 million today.

In that regard the United States has eased its rules on the export of dual-use technology to India. The sale of such technology, or hi-tech products that could also have military applications, to India has been banned since the country became a nuclear power in 1998.

Indian Foreign Secretary Kanwal Sibal and US Commerce Undersecretary Kenneth Juster signed an accord to ease the export rules and set up an India-US High Technology Cooperation Group to boost bilateral trade.

The ambassador also claimed that the Indian government had already expressed interest in attack, reconnaissance and transport helicopters in addition to acquiring target drones for the navy. Accordingly, a high-level US naval delegation is visiting India this month to discuss the possible sale of US Navy P3 maritime patrol aircraft. He also said that the Bush administration had worked with the US Congress to amend the law suitably to facilitate the export to India of items on the US Munitions List. Since last October 24, only major defense equipment sales above $14 million require congressional notification, a change that puts India in a category with such US allies as South Korea and Japan.

And in a bid for India's market, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics offered a wide range of hardware, including F-16 fighter jets to replace India's aging fleet of Soviet-built MiG-21 warplanes. The offer, including technology transfers and joint ventures, came ahead of a visit to India by French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, expected to discuss an $8 billion Mirage-2000 deal with India.

And Lockheed Martin also invited India to participate in the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) global project it leads. That program, worth $20 billion, has 100 overseas partners and plans to manufacture 2,000 aircraft, which can serve both the navy and air force, for Britain and the US before selling to others. Lockheed also said the company wants to sell or locally build its C-130 cargo planes.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EC11Df01.html

[umair]

OK Su(-37)! Anti-Pakistan rhetoric was not good enough that now u have turned onto Australia!.What two countries do is between themselves.Consider this another warning! :cop
Oh and India even if offered F-16s for it's mig 21s won't go for them.Reason any sane person would know that a wholesale changeover from Russian to Western tech would spell massive issues of whole support infrastructure change(prohibitvely expensive) massive retraining of not only pilots, but also of techs, maintanence personnel etc.Changes in doctrine, issues of buildin familiarity with new weapon systems etc.
All in all India woyld in case of replacement end up incurring ten times the cost of procuring the planes in form of expenses necessary to deal with the above issues.

[gf0012-aust]

Su-27. You need to learn about regional politics. Australia does not play favourites with India or Pakistan. If anything we try and diplomatically manage both relationhips as both are important to us. It is not in the regions interest for it to turn into a shooting war, where we can, we try and add a different perspective into the diplomatic mix to inject some caution.

I'm not sure what "bee is in your bonnet", but my comments are an observation on my part, and as much as you seem to have this conspiracy streak running through you, I don't think that there is anything machieavellian occurring.

When have we given subs to Pakistan? In older subs, Pakistan uses Agostas and Daphnes - which are french. We have never used french submarines. We certainly haven't sold them Collins class as the last time I counted they were all there. :)
What spy planes? Are you talking about ASW P3 Orions?
Why would we send a spy plane anyway to Indian shores when we just have to ring up the french and buy satellite pictures if we need them?
Sending an RAAF ASW aircraft to India seems an odd way to spy on a nation that we have regular backdoor meetings with. If any nation wanted to spy on India and/or Pakistan there are easier ways to do it. Certainly NOT with aircraft.

Having been to India a number of times in the last 6 months, I personally have never felt uncomfortable about the country to country relationship. In fact I've never been saluted so many times in my life. So I have no idea about what you are on about.

Finally, governments operate at a far more different level than what the press do, I think you'd be surprired at how much liaison is occurring between australia, india and pakistan. I can only assume that your comments clealry demonstrate that you have no involvement at a govt, commercial or military level - as there is substantial happening.

The fact that you became confused about subs and spy planes leads me to believe that you are confusing australia with France. after all, they have been evicted for commercial espionage from a number of countries, maybe thats what you are thinking of.

BTW Australian defence related and commercial industrial companies are not restricted in their capacity to trade with either of your countries.
If anyone has a right to be frustrated it should be Pakistan, we took so long in selling them our Mirages because of Indian sensitivity that its a wonder they still wanted them.

You should be happy, Tandulka has absolutely given australia a flogging in the cricket today. ;)

Try not to make enemies when there are none in the first place, thats how things get out of hand.

[Su_37]

How we spy on our friends
Brendan Nicholson
The Sunday Age
Sunday 8 April 2001
The Cold War drama played out between a Chinese jet fighter and a US spy plane off Hainan island has focused attention on a global intelligence jigsaw in which Australia plays a clandestine but pivotal part.

Australia's main role involves massive satellite surveillance of its Asian neighbors' civil and military communications that extends over a third of the planet. But it includes regular flights around Indonesia and as far afield as India and Pakistan by RAAF P-3 Orion patrol planes carrying equipment similar to that aboard the US plane at the centre of the row.

Many Americans were startled to discover their aircraft were carrying out potentially dangerous spying missions off the Chinese coast. But Australians would be equally surprised at the extent of their country's surveillance.
Since 1947, Australia has been part of a highly sensitive

intelligence-gathering alliance with the US, Britain, Canada and New Zealand approved by the Chifley government. It was top secret for 40 years until revealed by strategic analysts Des Ball and Jeffrey T. Richelson in their book The Ties That Bind.

The agreement divides the planet into spheres of intelligence- gathering responsibility, with Australia's Defence Signals Directorate covering the eastern Indian Ocean, parts of South- East Asia and the western Pacific. But technology has given it a much wider range.

Last year Indonesia claimed RAAF aircraft were carrying out "black" (secret) flights over its territory. Australia denied the claims, but Indonesia repeated them in an official protest and threatened to shoot down the aircraft.

The magazine Flight International said intelligence-gathering flights were carried out by two RAAF EP-3 Orion maritime- surveillance planes which were converted to operate as intelligence platforms under a classified project called Peacemate.

These aircraft were joined during the Timor crisis by an even more sophisticated US EP-3E Aeries II.

Indonesia issued a NOTAM (notice to airmen), warning pilots to watch out for RAAF Orions.

In another incident, Indonesia claimed that two of its fighters intercepted a RAAF Boeing 707 air tanker and four Australian F/A-18 fighters in its airspace.

An Indonesian fighter was alleged to have come to within eight metres of a Hornet. Flight International believed the Indonesian jets were armed and the Australian aircraft were not.

The Australian aircraft were enroute to Singapore and the Australian Defence Force said they were in international air space in a recognised air corridor.
Australia is also believed to use the reconnaissance version of the F-111 bomber, the RF-111C, to overfly Indonesia. The plane carries a long-range imaging pod able to record a mass of signals and sounds over a great distance.

The RAAF's aircraft regularly find themselves much further afield and are believed to have collected information about Indian and Pakistani missile and nuclear bomb tests.

In 1997, India formally protested to Australia that an RAAF Orion flew low over the pride of its fleet, the new destroyer INS Delhi, south of India's Andaman Islands.

The Orion photographed the ship and dropped sonar buoys near it. These would have collected enough information about noises emitted by the destroyer to paint a comprehensive picture of its power plant and propulsion system. This "signature" would be stored to enable Australia and its allies to later identify the ship by its noise alone.

The US aircraft involved in last week's incident is believed to have been trying to find or listen to either a new Chinese destroyer or one of two new Chinese submarines the Americans are worried about.

One is a variant of the Russian Kilo Class sub and the other a variant of the Victor III, designed to launch cruise missiles while submerged. That would make it ideal for attacking US aircraft carriers.

Professor Ball told The Sunday Age the RAAF Orions constantly patrolled a massive area of the Pacific between Australia and Butterworth in Malaysia. They would also head out across the South China Sea, around New Guinea and back over the Coral Sea.

Along the way they would intercept VHF and microwave signals from as far as 200 kilometres away.

"Our coverage is both what we're interested in, Indonesia basically, and broader coverage on behalf of the UK/USA community, which means from Burma across to the Coral Sea," Professor Ball said.

US liaison officers were stationed in the intercept facilities and processing facilities and at headquarters in Australia and the US.

"It's key stuff. You can't do anything unless you know what the electronic environment you're going to be operating in is.

"It's what tells you where things are located in terms of radar sites, communications antennae and communications beacons. It also tells you, by intercepting their communications, what they're planning to do. By monitoring radars on their aircraft you can tell when the aircraft move from strip to strip, so you can monitor their order of battle.

"You can target your own systems by keying them in to particular frequencies. If you want to hit an airport and you know the air- traffic control radar at that airport is on a certain frequency, then you can target your own things from 1000 kilometres away straight into that radar."

Extraordinarily sophisticated equipment aboard satellites, aircraft and warships and operating in land-based stations in Australia act as a series of massive electronic vacuum cleaners, sweeping up every kind of communication.

A mass of information from all sources flows to the Defence Signals Directorate headquarters, at Russell Hill, in Canberra. There, powerful computers sift the mundane - the conversations of the region's lovelorn teenagers, instructions to bring home some milk - from the potentially important.

The information might include details of military movements, plans to destabilise a government, hints at a terrorist operation, a people-smuggling racket or a drug transfer. It is passed on to specialist agencies for comprehensive analysis.

"It operates," says an expert, "not unlike a news agency distributing information to clients."

This vast net is bound to scoop up economic data and it is hard to imagine the system ignoring commercial information that might be used in trade negotiations.

Most of the information Australia collects comes from stations - at Kojarena, near Geraldton in WA, Shoal Bay in the Northern Territory and Waihopai in New Zealand - which intercept satellite signals.

There, the Defence Signals Directorate intercepts phone and other calls over a massive area extending from East Africa and Eastern Europe across all of Asia to the mid-Pacific and from the Antarctic up to Siberia.

Key targets are the Palapa satellites which provide the national telecommunications systems of Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Papua New Guinea.

More direct strategic surveillance will be provided by the Jindalee Operational Radar Network at Alice Springs from next year.

The over-horizon radar system will monitor aircraft and ship movements right over Indonesia and possibly further north into Asia.

A key role of Australia's six Collins Class submarines is to gather intelligence using their own electronic equipment and by observing bases and shipping movements from periscope depth. Two submarines operated off Timor before and during the landings there. In a crisis, they would also be relied on heavily by Australia's allies, as the relatively small and manoeuvrable conventional submarines can operate much more effectively in the region's shallow inshore waters than the massive nuclear vessels of the US Navy.

Another analyst said electronic surveillance by ground stations was the most discreet way to gather information.

"If they see an aircraft cruising along their border with aerials sticking out, there is not a lot they can do legally if it is international territory. But it is an affront to them.

"With the ground stations they never see anything. The satellite is far above and the ground station is in your own country. You hoover up masses of information and they never know it."


http://sievx.com/articles/psdp/20010408BrendanNicholson.html

Regarding the infastructure overhual , it is not a given day task , US need India to counterweight China , this is open sercret. MOreover India is not using Russian hardware with westrean electrons. In time futher ahead you cant ignore the possiblility that US supplyed India F16'sa F15's free of cost, in order to enggage india , like US dose in Cold war era.

If US has asked India to participate , then it shows that US is now Readying to arm India with HI-TECH wepons systems. In future also US will opens its all TECH to India. Iviting to JSF , which is 5th generation Fighter is a very IMportant thing , this shows that US is now comfortable wiht india in giving hi-tech systems. Moreoevr Indo -US group also negotiating on technoligical exchange of US current AMM sys.


WARNNING :cop I am onlly showing the mirror what happen , YOu can't say that stop calling Black a BLack and White a WHite , . Or stop saying AK 47 a AK 47 .. do ,.ya? ... this is not my extreame Ideas , this is fact ... and FActs can't be altered. WHy are are always RUN from reality? , I am just posting my Real openiion based of HARD CORE GROUND FACTS. If this Australian and INDIAN inccident Happens in 1997 , so what is my fault ?? My fault is that i only stated that ? I am not writing any imaginery things like anyone else write . I have FActs to prove this and u can't tell the relaity is extrime.

umair : u can't ignore the HIMALAYAS by not seeing it ,Don;t try to become that bird which closed his eyes when she sees her enemy and thinks that if i cannot seeing him then he will not also seeing me.

PLease wake up in real world where internation politlics plays every move.

[gf0012-aust]

Su-37, I have tried to respond to these as much as is possible. There are some things that I cannot and will not on a public forum. - my comments are bracketed)


(Brendan Nicholson of The Sunday Age is a journalist who is anti government and anti-military. he lacks a little credibility.

Since the first days of the installation of the Pine Gap station everyone with a military background has known that it is a ballistic missile warning station. Look at pictures of a BMEWS in Thule; it’s exactly the same as Pine Gap. Pine Gap is also part of NASA's monitoring process. When man landed on the moon in July 1969 Australia managed part of the communications handling from Parkes. Pine Gap is there to amongst other things let the US and Aust know if someone launches a ballistic missile. In some instances the Thule and Pine Gap stations have actually stopped escalations of conflict between the US and the old Sov Union as it confirmed failures to launch etc...)

The agreement set up by Chifley is a beat up. Of course it exists. We had/have military treaties in place where our obligation was to provide intelligence and support under ANZUS, 5 Powers Agreement and SEATO (Covering Aust, NZ, UK, USA, Malaysia, and Singapore) Likewise our relationship with India and Pakistan has groundings in the Commonwealth. That relationship enables in some instances Aust to talk to both countries where the US could not.

(An RF-111 was flown over East Timor during 1999, the air force tasking commander failed to get the proper authority and was reprimanded for it. its common knowledge in Aust)

The magazine Flight International said intelligence-gathering flights were carried out by two RAAF EP-3 Orion maritime- surveillance planes which were converted to operate as intelligence platforms under a classified project called Peacemate.
(They are also used to test new technologies for electronic warfare. how else do you test equipment?) In actual fact the Australian aircraft are considered to be as sophisticated as the US Aries.

These aircraft were joined during the Timor crisis by an even more sophisticated US EP-3E Aeries II. - (Yes, and their role was to monitor troop movements on the east Timor border, if you remember correctly, militia and some Indon military were quite happily murdering Timorese, even the UN civilians were attacked. -didn't you see the footage when this was happening)

Indonesia issued a NOTAM (notice to airmen), warning pilots to watch out for RAAF Orion’s. - (Yes and if Indonesia had sent naval vessels into the east Timor zone under the UN mandate we would have sunk their ships if they posed a threat)

In another incident, Indonesia claimed that two of its fighters intercepted a RAAF Boeing 707 air tanker and four Australian F/A-18 fighters in its airspace. An Indonesian fighter was alleged to have come to within eight metres of a Hornet. Flight International believed the Indonesian jets were armed and the Australian aircraft were not. The Australian aircraft were enroute to Singapore and the Australian Defense Force said they were in international air space in a recognised air corridor.

(True, Indonesia has its own definition of an EEZ which is also challenged under the UN) Under international conventions any aircraft can transit that corridor. - If we meant to visit harm on the Indon jets then we would travel armed for air to air intervention) Australia and Singapore have exchange programmes and co-operate on military training. Singapore has been given a tract of land to train from which is 4 times the size of Singapore. They have 2 squadrons of aircraft plus some other units based in Australia, they have other units based in France and the US) Its interesting as when the US aircraft fly that corridor they get left alone, for some reason Indonesia felt a need to intercept us - the Indon commander was reprimanded after the diplomatic game of football was started up)

Australia is also believed to use the reconnaissance version of the F-111 bomber, the RF-111C, to overfly Indonesia. The plane carries a long-range imaging pod able to record a mass of signals and sounds over a great distance.
(Its overflown once, and the R stands for reconnaissance, that’s its job - there are 4 of them and everyone has known we have had them since 1972)

The RAAF's aircraft regularly find themselves much further afield and are believed to have collected information about Indian and Pakistani missile and nuclear bomb tests.
(Yes, we fly as far as the UK, regularly fly to the US and conduct exercises with some European nations - that’s what training is for)

(India and Pakistan nuke monitoring - what a load of bollocks - if you want to get data about a nuke test you do a spectrum test (amongst other things) from satellites, you don't stick aircraft in harms way - and to get data would actually mean flying over the test zone - you can't side scan it with any of the Australian aircraft - look at the fuselages on them, not one phased array panel, not one side scanner in sight) and (yes, we fly as far as the UK, regularly fly to the US and conduct exercises with some European nations - that’s what training is for, we have Orion’s, we don’t have SR-71's.)

In 1997, India formally protested to Australia that an RAAF Orion flew low over the pride of its fleet, the new destroyer INS Delhi, south of India's Andaman Islands. (Yes and a formal apology was lodged even though the vessel was in international waters, everyone tests everyone’s reaction times, china does it with Taiwan, Russia did it with the US, US did it back, and we even do it to the USN etc... This is normal and is called probing)

The Orion photographed the ship and dropped sonar buoys near it. These would have collected enough information about noises emitted by the destroyer to paint a comprehensive picture of its power plant and propulsion system. This "signature" would be stored to enable Australia and its allies to later identify the ship by its noise alone.

(If you want to signature map a vessel in a clandestine fashion you use a sub, not a plane where its apparent what you are doing. - On top of that Australia shares Intel with long term allies, so if there was a need to get a signature of a vessel there is an easier way to get it - certainly not by using a plane)

The US aircraft involved in last week's incident is believed to have been trying to find or listen to either a new Chinese destroyer or one of two new Chinese submarines the Americans are worried about.

One is a variant of the Russian Kilo Class sub and the other a variant of the Victor III, designed to launch cruise missiles while submerged. That would make it ideal for attacking US aircraft carriers.

Professor Ball told The Sunday Age the RAAF Orion’s constantly patrolled a massive area of the Pacific between Australia and Butterworth in Malaysia. They would also head out across the South China Sea, around New Guinea and back over the Coral Sea.
(Seeing that Australia has aircraft based in Malaysia as a legacy of the "5 powers agreement" then that would seem to be pretty normal. New Guinea has been Australia’s responsibility even though they have independence, we fund up to a 1/3rd of their annual budget. Part of the process is assisting militarily in benign environments

Along the way they would intercept VHF and microwave signals from as far as 200 kilometres away.

"Our coverage is both what we're interested in, Indonesia basically, and broader coverage on behalf of the UK/USA community, which means from Burma across to the Coral Sea," Professor Ball said.

US liaison officers were stationed in the intercept facilities and processing facilities and at headquarters in Australia and the US.

"It's key stuff. You can't do anything unless you know what the electronic environment you're going to be operating in is.

"It's what tells you where things are located in terms of radar sites, communications antennae and communications beacons. It also tells you, by intercepting their communications, what they're planning to do. By monitoring radars on their aircraft you can tell when the aircraft move from strip to strip, so you can monitor their order of battle.

"You can target your own systems by keying them in to particular frequencies. If you want to hit an airport and you know the air- traffic control radar at that airport is on a certain frequency, then you can target your own things from 1000 kilometres away straight into that radar."

Extraordinarily sophisticated equipment aboard satellites, aircraft and warships and operating in land-based stations in Australia act as a series of massive electronic vacuum cleaners, sweeping up every kind of communication.

A mass of information from all sources flows to the Defense Signals Directorate headquarters, at Russell Hill, in Canberra. There, powerful computers sift the mundane - the conversations of the region's lovelorn teenagers, instructions to bring home some milk - from the potentially important.

The information might include details of military movements, plans to destabilize a government, hints at a terrorist operation, a people-smuggling racket or a drug transfer. It is passed on to specialist agencies for comprehensive analysis.

"It operates," says an expert, "not unlike a news agency distributing information to clients."

This vast net is bound to scoop up economic data and it is hard to imagine the system ignoring commercial information that might be used in trade negotiations.

Most of the information Australia collects comes from stations - at Kojarena, near Geraldton in WA, Shoal Bay in the Northern Territory and Waihopai in New Zealand - which intercept satellite signals.

There, the Defense Signals Directorate intercepts phone and other calls over a massive area extending from East Africa and Eastern Europe across all of Asia to the mid-Pacific and from the Antarctic up to Siberia.

Key targets are the Palapa satellites which provide the national telecommunications systems of Indonesia, Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Papua New Guinea.

More direct strategic surveillance will be provided by the Jindalee Operational Radar Network at Alice Springs from next year. ) it’s already active - how old is this data??)

The over-horizon radar system will monitor aircraft and ship movement’s right over Indonesia and possibly further north into Asia. (Under some tests it has been able to track a Landover driving through the middle of Australia - it can also track stealth aircraft - something that the US didn't realize we could do)

A key role of Australia's six Collins Class submarines is to gather intelligence using their own electronic equipment and by observing bases and shipping movements from periscope depth. Two submarines operated off Timor before and during the landings there. In a crisis, they would also be relied on heavily by Australia's allies, as the relatively small and maneuverable conventional submarines can operate much more effectively in the region's shallow inshore waters than the massive nuclear vessels of the US Navy. (they are actually the largest conventional subs in the world, so they're a little wrong here - they are fleet subs, designed to travel long range etc - if you hadn't noticed, australia is the largest island continent in the world - it's a big coast)

(yes, and they were also there to sink any Indonesian vessel that decided to escalate the east Timor conflict - all allowable under the UN mandate that Aust was operating under. The mandate allowed the use of protective force if there is a clear perception that the "vendor" is about to start shooting. All military capability in East Timor was there as force protection, IF the UN teams or UNAMET forces had been targeted, then those platforms were in a position to respond with maximum relevant force.)

Another analyst said electronic surveillance by ground stations was the most discreet way to gather information.

"If they see an aircraft cruising along their border with aerials sticking out, there is not a lot they can do legally if it is international territory. But it is an affront to them.

"With the ground stations they never see anything. The satellite is far above and the ground station is in your own country. You hoover up masses of information and they never know it. (which is also why you wouldn't use an Orion) in addition (and the point of this is? Of course ELINT can hoover up info, that’s how you monitor threats etc... - every military does it, its just that some have a better capability than some others.)

I would make no apologies about protecting east Timor, they protected Australian forces from the Japanese in World War 2, and we had a moral obligation to protect them, as was the UN's view. If it was me in charge, I would have done the same thing. If unarmed civilians are being attacked by armed militia under the direction and control of rogue elements of the military, then yes, send in the troops, sink their ships and knock out their capacity to wage war on a defenseless group of individuals.

Some of this info is palpably incorrect, some of it only touches what our interception and electronic warfare capability can do. Either way it does not show full events and outcomes.

If you are worried about surveillance and ELINT, then you might like to know that the capacity exists to hook into any transmission if there is a requirement. Part of what I used to do at a point in time was monitor traffic. EVERY nation does it. Only a few can go deep. (Maybe 4-5 all up)

(Btw Des Ball is an academic who lost his credibility about 20 years ago, he is still, living in cold war solutions)

(Finally, Australia would be one of the few nations that actually has meetings with other foreign defense ministers and military officers to discuss when we are about to go through a military platform purchase, we do that so that there is no misunderstanding about the reason for selection. To imply that any of these platforms are relegations to our neighbours is somewhat disingenuine. They know before the Australian Public knows.

There is more that I can add to this but it would be inappropriate for me to do so.)

[umair]

To su-37: Australia and Pakistan have been allies and friends since the SEATO&CENTO days.Indonesia has had a tiff with them since the sixties.
Note this as well RAAF operates only P3-C Orions not the EP-3 which is an exclusive US ONLY millitary asset operated by the USN in small nos with the squadrons VQ-1 atNAS Agana Guam and VQ-2 flying out of NAS Rota Spain.
And as for your getting wholesale F-16s in lieu of mig-21s my earlier post would have been enough to convince any sane person that why India or any other country won't go for a wholesale tech change in it's armed forces.
If Lockheed was giving you a piece of JSF's work then GOOD FOR YOU.
India's maritime planes flyover other countries ships all the time.Every navy does this it's a norm of the naval life and intelligence on new weapon systems has to be gathered one way or the other.Australia has to keep an eye on India because of your not so secret interest in the region where Australia has had great influence since the sixties.

[gf0012-aust]

Regarding the infastructure overhual , it is not a given day task , US need India to counterweight China , this is open sercret. MOreover India is not using Russian hardware with westrean electrons. In time futher ahead you cant ignore the possiblility that US supplyed India F16'sa F15's free of cost, in order to enggage india , like US dose in Cold war era.

If US has asked India to participate , then it shows that US is now Readying to arm India with HI-TECH wepons systems. In future also US will opens its all TECH to India. Iviting to JSF , which is 5th generation Fighter is a very IMportant thing , this shows that US is now comfortable wiht india in giving hi-tech systems. Moreoevr Indo -US group also negotiating on technoligical exchange of US current AMM sys.


Interesting logic, but a bit fanciful. As for the JSF, Indian companies want to bid as sub contractors of the tier 2 and 3 contractors, that is NOT the same as getting access to stealth technology, being part of the redesign processes, enhancements etc... BAE as the only Tier 1 prime is in a position to change and influence the design specs.

[sukhoiman]

As far as i know, India and oz have good relations that are based on trade and an ethnic indian populace in australia. SU-37, why do you think aus is pro - pak and anti india...surely extrapolating one little incident and saying that aus is hostile to india is dumb?

[Revival_786]

He believes non-credible sources...

[corsair7772]

http://www.orbat.com/site/lastround/Pakistan2010.html

well as long as this thread is abt sellin US weapons 2 india an not anti-su 37 stuff i wanted 2 show this article i found on an indian site abt a future war between india and pakistan. u might want 2 chk it out. It sayz clearly tht India will be recieving Us weapons an also gives a hint on which 1s.

[The Watcher]

http://www.orbat.com/site/lastround/Pakistan2010.html

well as long as this thread is abt sellin US weapons 2 india an not anti-su 37 stuff i wanted 2 show this article i found on an indian site abt a future war between india and pakistan. u might want 2 chk it out. It sayz clearly tht India will be recieving Us weapons an also gives a hint on which 1s.


Whoa!!!

It says:

In 2003 a radical Islamist general seizes power in a coup. He proclaims an Islamic Republic and moves to cut all military ties with the United States. Nonetheless, aware of Pakistan’s weakness, he continues to accept US controls over Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal, cooperates in the war against terror to the extent necessary to stop Pakistan from suffering extra sanctions, and expands economic liberalization, drawing in an ever-growing number of western corporations.

The year 2003 is long gone and mushy is stil there. Not so islamist is it? :D

Another dubious thought:

In 1999, during the Kargil War, India starts planning a permanent solution to the Pakistan problem
This solution, called Plan Orange, goes through several permutations and is finally fixed at a:
Baseline: Recover Pakistan Occupied Kashmir
Baseline + 1: The above, plus seizure of Pakistan Punjab along a line Sialkot-Lahore, thus widening the Pathankot bottleneck between Kashmir and the rest of the country, and significantly reducing the length of the frontier in this region
Baseline + 2: The above, plus splitting Sindh away from Pakistan
Baseline + 3: The above, plus splitting Baluchistan and NWFP from Pakistan, leaving just the West Punjab to be called “Pakistan”

That is not possible due to the nuclear factor. At any point, oneness of pakistan is threatened, pakistan will unleash its nuclear arsenal on indian cities and destroying any hopes for the indian planners to see or rule pakistan. According to Qadeer khan, pakistan will turn india into another indian ocean.

[Su_37]

TO GF0012

Oh Man little credibility ,, Well that as happen long time back and i can't the records about it..

In the peace times no marintime plane flew over other country's ship. Even in the internatioinal waters no other country do such type of hostility act against nutural or friendly country .

Gf0012.. u said US - Russia , u said China - Tiwan snoops, agree , well how can u explain if French Snoop on Australian ships in peace time? is that is friendly sign? Or South African Ships Snoops on Malayasian ships? Don't you think it sound logic? All these countries are far apart and will no do such a trhing until and unless their is something fishy.

The thing is it is not normal practice that snooping is done on friendly or nutural country.
At tha time i read that story in News Paper , I can collect somethings. That artical stated whole story what happen. " When INS Delhi saw the RAAF Orion Plane it responed in radio all frequency trying to contact that plane. Australian plane didn't responded and droped sonar buoys, at this moment INS DELHI Captin orders all engine stop and also order to shut down all radars and electronic warefare systems onboard in order to protect ships signatures. INS Delhi Stand strill for 45 mins and RAAF Orion plane flew over fro 45 mins and then moved away. Indian didn't even tried to shoot it down as it is not an adversery plane and it not any hostile environment.

Tell why do you think that Australian instrested IN INS Delhi ? Australia and India is far apart in both geographic and strategic terms.

Why can't Russia snoops on Indian ships or why can't UK snoops on indian ships or why can't Brazile send its Armada to snoop on Indian?

Well my dear Gf0012 everything has it importance.

JSF :-

Well about JSF , US don't wnat india in JSF for Indian companies. The thing indian companies can do also be done by UK or US companies , so why they need india ? Moreover its US invited India , not India goes to US for JSF, SO your reason that indian companies wants to bid for tear 3 or T/4 contracts is not sound logic.

They need india for their Softwares, guidance system Softwares , Indian developed a airframe modelling sofware for AIRBUS and also navigational software fro AIRBUS and Boing. India achived a masterery in guidance amd naveginational Sofware systems.

Moreover , invitation to Project is also means that US is going to give india JSF, not that much of power as of US or Uk airforce model.

Agree..

[gf0012-aust]

Su_37

I'm not trying to have an argument with you, but I have actually worked in some of the areas I post about. My credibility is already established in various areas.

Friendly nations do test systems against each other, it has happened since time immemorial. The US tests our reaction times and vice versa. We test NZ, Singapore, etc etc...

As I keep trying to tell you, if you want to map the signature of a surface ship, the easiest and less visible way is via a sub. You can guarantee that the day your new navy ship slipped out of port there was a Han sitting offshore recording away to its hearts content. The French are notorious for listening on everyone. Both Sweden and Switzerland monitor surrounding countries, which country was the first to pick up the russian nuke meltdown at Chernobyl? Answer - Sweden, because it was monitoring in that direction.

as an example, the chinese embassy in canberra had so many devices built under its roof that the nearby British High commission had to leave the building and get it shielded, it took a whole year to reshield and rebuild that building. everyone knows the chinese are doing it, no one considers it a hostile act.

Russian subs used to come up the south of australia, they were never considered hostile (until one shot a laser designator at the pilot - that almost resulted in a contact) As a legacy of that incident a moratorium was developed forbidding the use of laser designators as "painters", to do so after the agreement could be considered a hostile act.

EW scanning in international waters is not a hostile act (I suggest you have a look at int maritime law), however, if india had painted the orion and then locked weaps on, then that would have been. If the Orion had locked their harpoons on, that would be a hostile act. - I can give you probably 50+ examples of contact made in international waters by different countries where if it was a hostile act in war time people would have started reacting.
You obviously have no idea what happens in the real world wrt surveillance behaviour in international waters.

On the other hand, a few years ago the norwegians and the danes sank a submarine that was in their territorial waters. if it had not been within the int zone, it never would have been sunk. No nation claimed the loss of a sub, even though it was pretty obvious one was hit.

There are probably well over 1000 recorded incidents at sea and in the air that have occurred over the last 40 years from nations snooping on others and testing reaction times. It IS considered to be normal practice. India also does it, don't you think that India monitors Iran and Afghanistan??

Finally the US won't give India the JSF, India will have to buy it like the other 13 countries involved in the project, if India decides to buy it, then they will have to wait at the end of the queue unless one of the 13 other countries is prepared to abrogate its own waiting time for Indias benefit. That will not happen in the current climate as none are prepared to lose their positions in the delivery schedule. It would be up to the US to cut back its own delivery, that is also unlikely as it would disconnect from F22 support and parallel role outs.

as much as you appear to be focussed on creating an issue of conflict between India and Australia, that is clearly not the case in the real world in which the rest of us live. Have you ever wondered why the Australian-Indian Chamber of Commerce is so large??? Have you heard of it??

[dabrownguy]

WTF! Did the US allow any selling of western goods to India like F-16. And can India get Rafele or Gripen?

[gf0012-aust]

WTF! Did the US allow any selling of western goods to India like F-16. And can India get Rafele or Gripen?

India can buy what it wants as long as the home selling country wants to facilitate the sale.

There are better aircraft than the Rafale.

And India is buying Orions to replace the Mays..

[Aussie Digger]

I don't understand what you're problem is Su-37. Do you think that Australia is planning some type of war against India or maybe Indonesia? Well apart from our complete lack of capability for such an endeavour we have no political intent or even will to do so. Obtaining Electronic Intelligence against countries in your region is something that is done by EVERY country. Do you think that India doesn't do it? What do you think they intend to use their new PC-3 Orions that they are buying from the US for, pilot training?

[ullu]

Well, in eyes of su-37, all about india is good and all about other countries that don't say india is good are bad. :roll :lolol

[gf0012-aust]

Su-27, one of the things that I didn't add in my response to you, but assumed that it was self evident is that the reason for testing signatures of any other nations equipment is to ensure that the targetting databases are up to date..

in the case of a submarine, if we were tooling around in the Indian or Pacific ocean and were in a state of war with another country, we need to know fairly quickly whether the detected platform is a friendly, neutral or hostile nation. Thats why you have an onboard database, you even track and photograph commercial shipping for the same reason.

the whole purpose of it is to make your own ROE's safer if you go into a threatened theatre.

the last thing you want to do is sink a vessel from a neutral country.
the reason why you test reaction times of aircraft and their land bound defences etc... is because there are other nations who use similar and/or identical equipment who may be hostile to us, its a data mining exercise.

we know the parameters of USAF aircraft such as the F16's as we never know if one day those platforms may be used against us in a fragile unstable region that may see a dramatic change in circumstances.

[corsair7772]

Well yea its perfectly normal keepin an eye on the ship but HEY gettin all the frequencies an stuff is uncalled 4

[gf0012-aust]

Well yea its perfectly normal keepin an eye on the ship but HEY gettin all the frequencies an stuff is uncalled 4

no, its actually quite normal, all navies do it, all those with submarines do it, and the russians used to have their intel "fishing" trawlers in on it as well.

you HAVE to know the signatures of all ships, thats way the onboard database tied into the weaps systems and the human "mark 1 brain" can make a rapid solution if req'd.

commercial ships don't have IFF, if the baloon "goes up", then all of the commercial assets flagging issues become essential determinants as to whether they become a target.

EVERY navy does this (those that have databases) - it would be negligent not to do so.

[ahussains]

Guy we have to realise this in comming days India and US have good Miltary and Economic Ties.. Because they want India to be a big market for there weapon industry after few years US, Russia , and Europe all they are fighting with each other to sold there Weapons to India ... At that tine Pakistan have a good chance to improve there Military Equipment on LOW prices ;)

[corsair7772]

Well yea its perfectly normal keepin an eye on the ship but HEY gettin all the frequencies an stuff is uncalled 4

no, its actually quite normal, all navies do it, all those with submarines do it, and the russians used to have their intel "fishing" trawlers in on it as well.

you HAVE to know the signatures of all ships, thats way the onboard database tied into the weaps systems and the human "mark 1 brain" can make a rapid solution if req'd.

commercial ships don't have IFF, if the baloon "goes up", then all of the commercial assets flagging issues become essential determinants as to whether they become a target.


I dont think stealing the freqs for ships is something tht the indians will allow rite under their noses. Thts like givin a guy a bullet from ur gun 2 use on u.

EVERY navy does this (those that have databases) - it would be negligent not to do so.

[gf0012-aust]

corsair, can you please be careful when you do your quotes?

I dont think stealing the freqs for ships is something tht the indians will allow rite under their noses. Thts like givin a guy a bullet from ur gun 2 use on u.

it misrepresents the thrust of what i have said previously .

but, short of stopping your vessel and getting it to run silent, there is nothing that the captain can do.

It really is no big deal between navies, it is expected as everyone is trawling for data for fundamentally identical reasons.

If its a hostile situation, then that is a different matter...

[Aussie Digger]

This sort of thing is very similar to armies exercising together. Do you think that they shouldn't be allowed to pretend to shoot at each other either as one day it might happen for real? Scanning for ELINT, IMINT and SIGINT is a world wide accepted practice that is carried out by every modern and competent military. If they didn't do this they would never get the chance once the shooting starts. Their platform will be destroyed before they get the chance to figure out what's targeting them.

[Su_37]

Tell me dose India need database of South African or Isreali Navy?

Well may Be , I think you should recall the incident when China taken a extreme steps againt American Planes.

Well when ever such things happens in international waters , Adversery always taken a extreme steps either shoot down and do something damaging.

Well Indian ships never gone to Australian Waters, do they ?

Wells ending Subs and Ships in Indian Waters by Australia will prove Country long range intrest then India will also started to send its Ships and Subs for snooping Aus Ships .,

Anyway, U always Gives me example of US - Russia , every one knows they are enemy country , give example of Nutural countries .

Indian Planes flies in Indian Oceans. nut not in Aribian sea or over malaysia .

I don;t think India will fly PC3 over Australian waters.

No , some country try to snoop other country until and unless one don;t have intrest over another.

Why don;t Australian planes fly on SOuth African waters , don;t they need their data base upated about South African Navy , OR what about China ? why don;t thy Fly on China or Japan ?

Man no county goes on snooping to other until and unless it dosen't want to make thier relation deep down.

Thats ok .. peace ,, and please come back to topic .,

Regarding Wapon Sale , India is avey Big Market for US , Russia and Isreal.

India Trust , Isreal and Russia but not America In wepons area. India think US is a country of Intrest which becomes frined in the time of its Intrest and then leave it when its aim is over , E.g. is PAK.

thats why India don;t show Intrest in US made Wepons , India only purchase Halk only after when UK remove all American made component with someone other and UK dose so.

[gf0012-aust]

Su-27. India is right in the middle of renegotiating military deals with the US. You better tell Fernandez that he's not doing the right thing - as the Indian govt obviously has a different view from you.

[gf0012-aust]

Man no county goes on snooping to other until and unless it dosen't want to make thier relation deep down.

Thats ok .. peace ,, and please come back to topic .

rather than continue this here, PM me and I will try and explain off thread

[umair]

Man no county goes on snooping to other until and unless it dosen't want to make thier relation deep down.

Thats ok .. peace ,, and please come back to topic .

rather than continue this here, PM me and I will try and explain off thread

Some people never learn :roll
Su I have already posted that this sort of thing is the norm for all navies and all the other posts are also backing up this basic idea.Being patriotic is ok but being cynical :?

[Su_37]

Su-27. India is right in the middle of renegotiating military deals with the US. You better tell Fernandez that he's not doing the right thing - as the Indian govt obviously has a different view from you.]

Well yes india is negotiating deals wiht US , but not in major wepons , as you see no major deals was done , India only trying to take advantage of the time. US can provide valuable technological help in the area of defence.

No ships , No subs , No planes i think will India buy in next 20 years or so. India's only interest is in its Anti Missile System and India is keen to harness it.

buying PC3 will provide operation details and intelegence details about the components and technology used on these , which will help in developing the countermeasure against PAk maritime planes.

Moreover , you heard the story like that Isreali when about to buy F-16 planes instist on providing the radar details to them which helps then to devlop the F-16 radar jammers which will put the F-16 of enemy countries efferctive less and make those only as good as flying a oridenary plane.

When India Float a tender forr the US Airforce One style plane for Indian Prime Minister , Boing won the contact but they are not providing technological details about the components they are installing on the plane ,so India is not buying those planes.


Like this they are mnay exampleas where India don;t trust US in major wepon deals , Becasue US is sanction Happy country and India don;t wnat to make it dependable on US

[gf0012-aust]

Moreover , you heard the story like that Isreali when about to buy F-16 planes instist on providing the radar details to them which helps then to devlop the F-16 radar jammers which will put the F-16 of enemy countries efferctive less and make those only as good as flying a oridenary plane.


Israel gets its aircraft minus US EW and electrical suites. They install their own. They're normally acknowledged as being superior to the american units, same as for the F15's. They install their own kit.

As for India and its attitude to US purchases, that is certainly changing. They have expressed an interest in US ASW systems and are looking at substantial co-development with Israel in EW and missile technologies.
That is a bit of a shift from its long term history with Russia.

India will do what India sees as best for its own national interests, but I'd suggest to you that there is far more happening with the US than what is publicly available.

Similarly Pakistan under Musharaff is doing similar things.

The US doesn't consider India a threat and yet I get the distinct impression that you see it as one. Trade between nations is one of the things that can break down mistrust and remove barriers. I'd suggest that you have a look at the growth in trade that India conducts to see that it is moving rapidly to wanting to be a more visible trader and partner.

I say that as someone who was a member of the AsiaSociety, Australia India Chamber of Commerce, the Australia-Arab Chamber of Commerce and as a member of various American institutions..

[Su_37]

Well , In the Area of Hi-Tech , India and US views are far apart , US tries to block ISRO from accuirying Cryo Engines which then India has to develop its own.

US still not supplied Dual Uses Items to India .

[gf0012-aust]

Well , In the Area of Hi-Tech , India and US views are far apart , US tries to block ISRO from accuirying Cryo Engines which then India has to develop its own.

US still not supplied Dual Uses Items to India .

I was under the impression that this was a discussion point still being addressed etc... India was looking at having a role in the MARs programme.

[kilo_4que]

Not having the chance to read all the posts on this thread. The thing one should be thinking of is, SO WHAT. So what if Lockheed Martin is willing to supply india with Tech. This would only give instability to those from rival nations. You people should think more positive and more superior to this news for your own country. If you dig deep, these types of news bust out day in day ouot with every country.

For example in the case of one of indias biggest rival Pakistan there are talks between Desault and Saab/Boeing regarding Rafale and Grippen respectively. Furthermore, there are talk with france regarding the Mirage-2000. Until anything hasnt been delivered, one cant comment. Hence we need to all see what happens.

[Su_37]

Not having the chance to read all the posts on this thread. The thing one should be thinking of is, SO WHAT. So what if Lockheed Martin is willing to supply india with Tech. This would only give instability to those from rival nations. You people should think more positive and more superior to this news for your own country. If you dig deep, these types of news bust out day in day ouot with every country.

For example in the case of one of indias biggest rival Pakistan there are talks between Desault and Saab/Boeing regarding Rafale and Grippen respectively. Furthermore, there are talk with france regarding the Mirage-2000. Until anything hasnt been delivered, one cant comment. Hence we need to all see what happens.


Well , India is almost in the final stage of getting Mirage 2000-5 in 150 to 200 in numbers , I don;t think Franch then will supply Mirage or Rafal to Pak , as India Put an Condition of this Multi billion $ deal. Deal which include Subs and planes ranging deal form 4 to 5 billion $.

I don;t think Franch will Jepordise this Billions $ deals in order to get Few Million deals with PAK.

[Red aRRow]

Well , India is almost in the final stage of getting Mirage 2000-5 in 150 to 200 in numbers.

Where did you hear that from?

[Su_37]

Well , India is almost in the final stage of getting Mirage 2000-5 in 150 to 200 in numbers.

Where did you hear that from?

Well it is all over , Its open Secret now , WHat are India is planning .... that news what i can get right now on internet is of 2002 , well i read all this on Indian news paper.



One of the little noted paradoxes of the recent crisis between India and Pakistan was that some of the same countries desperately seeking to avert war between the two nuclear powers were the same ones avidly seeking to sell them weapons.

The United States, Britain, France and Russia all sent diplomats to stop New Delhi and Islamabad from going to war over Kashmir, fearing it might lead to a nuclear exchange. But at the same time, their respective military industrial complexes were supplying India or Pakistan - or both, in some cases - varied military goods or competing for future arms contracts.

In April, the United States signed a US$146-million deal with India for eight Firefinder AN/TPQ-37 fire-finder/counter-battery radar systems, built by Thales Raytheon Systems Corporation of El Segundo, California.

Another 20 "big ticket" military items were approved by the Bush administration for sale to India. These include 40 General Electric (GE) F404-GE-F2J3 engines and advanced avionics for the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program, submarine rescue facilities and ground sensors and electronic fencing for installation along the Line of Control (LoC). Pakistan is also being sold these satellite-linked sensors made by the Los Angeles-based Cooperative Monitoring Center of Sandia Laboratories and has unofficially been told that "low key" military sales will resume shortly.

The US is also interested in selling helicopters to replace the aging GKN Westland Mk 452 Sea King fleet, P-3C multi-mission maritime reconnaissance aircraft, and Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

US ambassador to India Robert Blackwill has hinted that measures were being initiated with Congress to release 20 arms licenses to New Delhi. Washington earlier this year lifted restrictions on military sales to India and Pakistan, imposed after their nuclear tests in 1998.

Britain, which dispatched Foreign Secretary Jack Straw to Islamabad and New Delhi to lower tensions in the region, also sought to close the deal with the Indian Air Force (IAF) for 66 BAE Systems Hawk training aircraft worth well over a billion dollars.

While in New Delhi, Straw rejected news reports that that Britain had imposed an arms embargo on India and that it had opposed the sale of Hawk trainers. Straw had pressed equally vehemently for the jet trainer during his visit to India in February, following up the sales pitch of Prime Minister Tony Blair and Defense Secretary Geoffrey Hoon, both of whom visited India and Pakistan this year to broker peace. And Sir Kevin Tebbit, Britain's Permanent Under Secretary in the Defense Ministry, too, pitched in for the BAE trainer during a visit to Delhi earlier this year as head of a delegation seeking to further "strategic dialogue".

In fact, as ministers warned Britons to leave the region amid the threat of nuclear conflict over Kashmir, Britain granted arms export licenses to India and Pakistan throughout the recent escalation of tensions. In some cases the number of licenses increased from the end of last year, before the recent tensions flared.

They were approved as India mounted its largest military build-up in 30 years along the Kashmir LoC after a suicide attack on the Indian parliament on December 13, which New Delhi blamed on militants backed by Pakistan.

At the same time, ministers and officials were quoted as indicating Britain was clamping down on arms sales to both countries, although Straw insisted that exports had not been suspended.

According to Saferworld, a London-based international security think tank, the figures revealed the government's own criteria on granting licenses was not being implemented rigorously. The figures reveal that the Department of Trade and Industry issued 39 export licenses to India and four to Pakistan between May 1 and May 20. About 25 licenses, which included military aircraft, related equipment and components, were granted to India in December, then three in January, eight in February, 30 in March, 45 in April and 21 in the first three weeks of May.

Three licenses of the same category were licensed to Pakistan in December, one in January, 20 in March, five in April and three in the first three weeks of May.

In 2000, Britain granted some 700 defense export licenses to companies selling weapons to India worth around 64.5 million sterling ($98.8 million). These included components for air-to-surface missiles, aircraft machine guns, armored personnel carriers, combat aircraft, torpedoes and combat helicopters. The UK also sold India military aircraft engines, military communications equipment, tear gas and other riot-control equipment and air-to-surface missiles.

In the same year the UK sold six million pounds sterling worth of weapons to Pakistan. This included components for combat helicopters, frigates and naval vessels, as well as military communications equipment, military training aircraft and military utility vehicles.

Britain seems happy to sell the same weapons to two countries on the brink of all-out war. Such a policy also appears to violate the European Union code of conduct on weapons sales. The code says that weapons must not be exported if they could: affect regional stability; provoke or prolong armed conflicts; be used for external aggression; or to assert by force a territorial claim. Given the standoff between India and Pakistan, UK weapons sales appear to contravene all those restrictions.

On June 1, Straw said that arms sales to the sub-continent need not be suspended during the present tensions because they are "not relevant" to the current fears of war. That is hard to reconcile with the fact that components for Jaguar bombers, supplied to India by Britain last year, are being upgraded to give them the capability to carry nuclear missiles. BAE has so far licensed the production of 126 Jaguars in India.

Meanwhile, Russia, which called upon President General Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to meet at a regional security conference at Almaty in Kazakhstan, remains the largest military hardware provider to India.

Around 50 of the 310 Russian T-90 main battle tanks (MBTs) that India bought last year for around $700 million have arrived and been absorbed in three "sabre" or strike squadrons in regiments deployed across Rajasthan against Pakistan's Ukrainian T 80UDs based in Sindh province.

Also, about 10 of the 40 Su-30 Mk-I fighter aircraft, fully upgraded to their multi-role capability with French, Israeli and locally developed avionics and weaponry, are scheduled to arrive soon. Almost a squadron of upgraded MiG 21 "bis"-93 ground attack interceptor fighters are ready. The deal for the 44,500-tonne Kiev-class Soviet aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, and the "associated" leasing of two Akula-class Type 971 nuclear-powered submarines, is also nearing completion.

[b]France, too, is pushing its military hardware in the region at the same time that President Jacques Chirac has spoken with both Musharraf and Vajpayee to try and dissuade them from the path of conflict.

Its Direction des Constructions Navales is on the verge of closing a deal with the Indian Navy to build six Scorepene submarines. The two sides had last year signed a memorandum of understanding for the Scorepenes, and Indian navy sources said France had agreed to arm the Scorepenes with Exocet SM 39 anti-ship missiles made by Aerospatiale, giving the navy a decisive edge over the Pakistanis.

The Indian air force has also opened preliminary discussions with Dassault Aviation of France to acquire Mirage 2005 fighter aircraft to enhance its strike and nuclear deterrence capabilities. Official sources in New Delhi said that the air force plans to acquire 126 Mirage 2005s to equip seven squadrons that will comprise the "backbone" of India's strategic nuclear command.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DG09Df03.html

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SU-37 Refer to my comment in:

http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=6085#6085