Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions

[Ramjetmissile]

Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
Robert Karniol JDW Asia-Pacific Bureau Chief
Bangkok

Key Points
Singapore is seeking to acquire its first multiple rocket system and first wheeled IFV


The Singapore Army is enhancing its firepower and mobility capabilities with the planned acquisition of its first multiple rocket launcher (MRL) and its first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle (IFV).

The MRL requirement is for 18 systems, with the request for proposals currently in progress. First deliveries are expected in about 18 months.

Contenders for the contract remain unclear, but sources told Jane's that talks on the programme are under way with the US. This suggests that potential candidates include the 227 mm Multiple Launch Rocket System and the High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, both from Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.

The IFV programme is aimed to equip three battalions, with initial deliveries expected around the end of 2008. The locally developed Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics 8 x 8 Terrex AV81 IFV is among several platforms under consideration; other options remain unknown.

The army most recently upgraded its artillery with the introduction of ST Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39 calibre Singapore Lightweight Howitzer, unveiled in late 2005. This supplemented the ST Kinetics Primus 155 mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery system that was revealed two years earlier.

The wheeled IFV would complement two tracked platforms in current service: the ST Kinetics Bionix IFV, operationally deployed since 1999; and the older Giat Industries AMX-10P infantry combat vehicle.

The Singapore Army will further bolster its capabilities with deliveries, due to start in mid-2008, of 66 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks, together with an additional 30 platforms earmarked as spares. These are intended to replace AMX-13 light tanks.

The planned acquisitions are linked to a broader force modernisation programme currently in progress and dubbed the third-generation Singapore Armed Forces.

[Ramjetmissile]

http://military.people.com.cn/mediafile/200602/28/F2006022806145600000.jpg

[Waylander]

Is there another version of the Terrex AV81?

I found this ST Kinetics brochure and there they only advertise APC, Mortar, Medical and Recovery versions.

http://www.one35th.com/terrex/terrex_intro.htm

[gary1910]

Is there another version of the Terrex AV81?

I found this ST Kinetics brochure and there they only advertise APC, Mortar, Medical and Recovery versions.

http://www.one35th.com/terrex/terrex_intro.htm

There is upamoured version display in Turkey, Yavuz which is developed by Otokar and STK based on the original Terrex AV-81.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9629/otokaryavuzturkishia9.jpg

[Red]

The SAF already posseses a huge array of 155mm 52 cal and 39 cal tube artillery(self-propelled artillery systems, howitzers, air-transportable howitzers, etc). Much more than any of her immediate neighbours.

Hence, I doubt Singapore will be using the MLRS as yet another artillery weapon. Rather, these MLRS would most likely be fitted with long range precision guided rockets like the GMRLS(>70 km), ATACMs(300km), Israeli LORA(>200 km), etc for long range precision strikes.

It makes perfect sense and very much fits Singapore`s next generation force which emphasizes precision strikes. But these would probably not be revealed officially and the press release would probably state the usual M26 rockets.

[Red]

The Singapore Army will further bolster its capabilities with deliveries, due to start in mid-2008, of 66 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks, together with an additional 30 platforms earmarked as spares. These are intended to replace AMX-13 light tanks.


A second batch of 36 2A4s were purchased recently plus spares as well. It ought to be 66 + 30 spares + 36 + ? spares. Hence, the SAF has about <160 2A4 tanks currently and at least 132 2A4 tanks.

Im not certain about this. But it would appear from several army folks that the 2A4 tanks and spares will be upgraded to the A6 standard or some Singaporean derivative. In some ways, this has already begun with the installation of the home-made Battlefield Management System on the 2A4 tanks. It is also similar to many other equipments which the SAF has upgraded and out-fitted indigeneously.

It is also highly likely that the SAF would get another batch of 2A4 tanks.

[Waylander]

I would not wonder if there are points in the contract with KMW and Rheinmetall which say that both companies at least have to be integrated partially into any upgrade programes done to the Leos.
Upgrades and spares are the fields were those companies do their money with.

@gary
Thanks for the infos and the pic. :)

[kato]

I would not wonder if there are points in the contract with KMW and Rheinmetall which say that both companies at least have to be integrated partially into any upgrade programes done to the Leos.
Upgrades and spares are the fields were those companies do their money with.


KMW has that in almost all their contracts, i'd think. Just consider how many foreign Leo2 get their refits done in Germany, not anywhere else.

Though with Singapore being rather far away, i'd presume that KMW e.g. gets the upgrade deal and then finds local subcontractors, except for really big stuff (like a full 2A6 upgrade or something like that).

[Red]

Quite possibly a joint agreement with Singapore Technologies for licensed upgrades to the 2A4s. Singapore Technologies has quite a number of such agreements. I do not think they will transport the 2A4s back to Germany for upgrades. The current 2A4 tanks are viewed by the SAF as `baseline'(in the words of the defence minister) tanks for them to improve upon.

[Waylander]

KMW has that in almost all their contracts, i'd think. Just consider how many foreign Leo2 get their refits done in Germany, not anywhere else.

Though with Singapore being rather far away, i'd presume that KMW e.g. gets the upgrade deal and then finds local subcontractors, except for really big stuff (like a full 2A6 upgrade or something like that).

Exactly what I was thinking. :)

And that an A4 is just a baseline tank these days is a given fact.

Happily for every new A4 customer Rheinmetall and KMW offer a wide range of possible upgrades already implemented.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[kato]

The M270 MLRS would be a quantum boost to anyone's ground combat capabilities.


Depends, especially when we're not taking about GMLRS. Not if you're already using one of the dozen competitors with similar stats (like Smerch-M, Uragan, Astros, Type 83, A-100).

[gary1910]

If you look at what UAE order which include M30/31 GMLRS, ATACMS Blk 1A DPICM/Unitary, SG getting at least GMLRS is not really very far fetched.

Secondly, we could secretly get from Israel GPS guided EXTRA munition which could be incorporated onto MLRS/HIMARS launchers.

Long time ago, there was a rumour that we did look at US MLRS, but at that time , there is no LR guided munition then, so it may not be as attractive.

But now, MLRS with guided munition give it a land based precision strike capability, which is very attractive, perhaps why we are looking at buying those expensive MLRS again.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Waylander]

Modern SPHs are networked in a similar way.

But I totally agree that it boostes Singapores artillery capabilities.

[Manfred2]

I'm sorry if this seems out of place, but I am missing something here-

That is a LOT of Leos, and MRLS's are for massive battles, not sniping at intruders. Is Singapore worried about invasion from Malaya or Indonesia? Neither nation is one I would want for a neighbor, but have they made any threats?

I have been to Singapore, a very nice place, but flat and kinda small to deploy hundreds of tanks and MRLS. Have they invested in fixed defenses at all?
{yeah, I know that didn't help in the past, but it was not much in the first place; three 15" guns, two 9.2" and a few 6" guns. Also- the purpose of fortifications is to hold the enemy by the nose while you use your manuver elements to break his legs}

Once again, sorry to be remiss in current events, but this is a lot of hardware in this day and age.

[Ramjetmissile]

it could be due to singapore defence doctrine. All battles must be fought in enemy soil.

Anyway Singapore arent as small as one think it is... .from one end of singapore to the other still takes an hour and half train ride.:D Besides singapore is a largely a flat land which also means virtually all her territory can be used.Places i.e. HK thou they are slightly bigger than Singapore but @ least 1/2 of the land are high altitude

Singapore has been a punching bag for political and domestic problems faced by her neighbours. In some extend conflict of interests, singapore need the capable military to back their leaders.

[gary1910]

I'm sorry if this seems out of place, but I am missing something here-

That is a LOT of Leos, and MRLS's are for massive battles, not sniping at intruders. Is Singapore worried about invasion from Malaya or Indonesia? Neither nation is one I would want for a neighbor, but have they made any threats?

I have been to Singapore, a very nice place, but flat and kinda small to deploy hundreds of tanks and MRLS. Have they invested in fixed defenses at all?
{yeah, I know that didn't help in the past, but it was not much in the first place; three 15" guns, two 9.2" and a few 6" guns. Also- the purpose of fortifications is to hold the enemy by the nose while you use your manuver elements to break his legs}

Once again, sorry to be remiss in current events, but this is a lot of hardware in this day and age.

Here a summary:
Air defence
For air defence, SG could boost one of the world most densely protected airspace of a size just below 700 sq km.

1st layer will be the fighters, which is abt 60 F-16 Blk52/52+, 40+ upgraded BVR capable F-5S/T and soon 12 AESA equipped F-15SG, that is abt the same size of MY and Indon AF combined.

2nd layer will be the 2 batt of the recently upgraded medium range Improved Hawk.

3rd layer will be VSHORADs Rapier with Mk II missile, support with a large number of RBS-70s, Mistral and Igla MANPADS.

Last but not least is the 35mm Oerlikon AAA.

Radars:4 LORADS II, FPS-117s, Blindfire , P-Star etc.

AEW: 4 E-2C and soon to be replaced by 4 G550 AEW.

AH: 20 AH-64D , some with Longbow radar.

UAV: Searcher MkII and Hermes 500.

Currently, we are also looking at TBM defences, especially with introduction China C-802 and possible Brahmos into the region.

Land defence

Other than the 3 Combined Arms Div(2 infantry Bde and 1 light armoured Bde), 1 RDF(air assualt and amphibious bdes) and possible one heavy armoured bde.

We have for protection of SG is the People's Defence Force which is at least abt 2 Div strength, supported with ASU with V200 APC and possibly 155mm arty formed by reserve units.

Naval defence
6 Stealth FFGs to replace 6 MGB, 6 missile corvettes, 11 patrol crafts. 4 SSK with additional of 2 AIP SSK in the near future, 4 LSTs and lastly 5 Harpoon equipped Fokker 50MPA.

[Aussie Digger]

it could be due to singapore defence doctrine. All battles must be fought in enemy soil.

Anyway Singapore arent as small as one think it is... .from one end of singapore to the other still takes an hour and half train ride.:D Besides singapore is a largely a flat land which also means virtually all her territory can be used.Places i.e. HK thou they are slightly bigger than Singapore but @ least 1/2 of the land are high altitude

Singapore has been a punching bag for political and domestic problems faced by her neighbours. In some extend conflict of interests, singapore need the capable military to back their leaders.

An hour and a half train ride and I'm barely out of Brisbane... :onfloorl:

[swerve]

i...
Anyway Singapore arent as small as one think it is... .from one end of singapore to the other still takes an hour and half train ride.:D ....

That's a slooooowwww train . . . . . Given a clear road, I could cycle from one end of Singapore to the other in that time. :D

The TGV Paris-Lille does 8 times the distance in 1 hour 8 minutes.

[kato]

That's a slooooowwww train . . . . . Given a clear road, I could cycle from one end of Singapore to the other in that time. :D


Indeed. Even commuter trains here in Europe do 100+ km distance in that time in some areas ;)

Singapore is almost exactly the size of Berlin, with maybe 20% more population. Takes about 75-90 minutes to get from one end of Berlin to the other.

The TGV Paris-Lille does 8 times the distance in 1 hour 8 minutes.
And Transrapid could get you from Singapore to Kuala Lumpur (twice Paris-Lille) in the same 68 minutes. If you invested those pesky $15 billion for the tracks first, of course.

[Red]

In the case of Singapore which has only tube artillery, the M270 will be a quantum boost to its capabilities esp when it has already a well-established military network.

The current artillery systems from forward observers to SPHs, howitzers, etc are already very tightly networked and digitized. So, if one misses, another one can fire almost instantly.


A video from 2003;

mms://media.mindef.gov.sg/army/21SA_hi.asf

I wonder if the SAF would undertake to make a Primus 2 with a 52 cal gun now that she is looking at MLRs systems. The current 52 cal FH2000s are solid guns but I like more mobility. Afterall, they would not call the 1st system, Primus 1 no?

The Primus 1 is designed smaller than other SPHs systems so that she is small and light weight enough to move around in the jungle, hide and follow armoured columns. A bigger SPH system would probably have stick to the main roads though SEA is getting more accesible and modern as time goes on.

[Manfred2]

Thank you Gary, that looks like a very good ADA situation for Songapore.

Now, I might have given a false impression when I was talking about fixed defenses. In the modern world, it is not bunkers and super-heavy artillery that qualify as fortifications. Today, it is mines, "infernal gardens" backed up by units that can observe them and bring fire down on anyone trying to clear them.

For an island, that means naval mines.

I did not notice a thread on this in the Naval section. Does Singapore have mine-layers and sweepers, or a significant store of those weapons?

[gary1910]

Thank you Gary, that looks like a very good ADA situation for Songapore.

Now, I might have given a false impression when I was talking about fixed defenses. In the modern world, it is not bunkers and super-heavy artillery that qualify as fortifications. Today, it is mines, "infernal gardens" backed up by units that can observe them and bring fire down on anyone trying to clear them.

For an island, that means naval mines.

I did not notice a thread on this in the Naval section. Does Singapore have mine-layers and sweepers, or a significant store of those weapons?

SG does have 4 modern Swedish Landsort MCMV. As for naval mines , not sure whether we have any in storage.

Other equipment that are useful for mine clearing are Israeli Protector Unmanned Surface Vessel(USV) and Spartan USV, joint project between USN, France and SG, Remus unmanned underwater vehicles (UUV) etc.

Anyway I doubt that we will be mining our waters as it is an impt int'l sea lane, not only it is impt to SG that it is clear of mines, other nations in Asia will not take it kindly as well.

Here some reading for you, though it is bit outdated:

http://navyleag.customer.netspace.net.au/fc_07ros.htm

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Manfred2]

the very small possibility of a chinese incursion into SE Asia (possibly via Burma or through Vietnam as they tried to do in 1979). There is also the build-up of Indian forces which may lead to potential gunboat diplomacy.

Ah, now that makes sense; The rich guy in the neighborhood steps up and builds a force that can help his neighbors keep the bad-guys out. Thank you!

So... what is Singapore's attitude toward the muslim terrorists, based in Malaya, who are attacking southern Thailand?

[funtz]

These systems are required by any armed force to complete the basic inventory

This might be a bit off the topic, having been to Singapore a lot of times, does Singapore has the land required to carry out live firing testing of these systems at near their maximum ranges and to carry out military coordination exercises between their armed forces.

if no then which countries do they tie up with for the excercises and practice.

[Schumacher]

.............. that threat has been replaced by the very small possibility of a chinese incursion into SE Asia (possibly via Burma or through Vietnam as they tried to do in 1979). There is also the build-up of Indian forces which may lead to potential gunboat diplomacy.

This is a wrong understanding of the 79 Chinese attack on Vietnam. The attack was to 'punish' Vietnam for invading Cambodia. According to MM Lee in one of his interviews, that stopped the domino from further falling from Thailand all the way down to S'pore.

[Schumacher]

These systems are required by any armed force to complete the basic inventory
This might be a bit off the topic, having been to Singapore a lot of times, does Singapore has the land required to carry out live firing testing of these systems at near their maximum ranges and to carry out military coordination exercises between their armed forces.
if no then which countries do they tie up with for the excercises and practice.

Australia, NZ, Taiwan, Thailand, Brunei, South Africa, US, France. S'pore has various levels of access to these countries' facilities for joint exercises as well as their own trainings.

[gary1910]

These systems are required by any armed force to complete the basic inventory
This might be a bit off the topic, having been to Singapore a lot of times, does Singapore has the land required to carry out live firing testing of these systems at near their maximum ranges and to carry out military coordination exercises between their armed forces.
if no then which countries do they tie up with for the excercises and practice.

Arty live firing are conducted in Taiwan(at least used to be, not sure now), New Zealand and India.

Large scale exe from Bde to Div level in Australia and perhaps India in the future.

Smaller scale exe are conducted locally as well as in Thailand, Brunei(Jungle training), India and perhaps Indonesia in the future.

Basic Flying School in Australia and Advanced pilot training in France, some trainess are also sent to NATO Flying Training School in Canada.

There are training detacment for F-16, Chinook and Apaches in US.

All the above are with bilateral agreement with the nation concern.

In 2005, SAF even conducted unilateral exe in US ,and just this month, bilateral exe with US army in Fort Wainwright, Alaska.

Here are some info abt recent exe in Alaska:

http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=6906884

[Investigator]

[Comments deleted.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[gary1910]

The first post included the option of wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicles I thought various people thought they were of little value? From the limited amount of Singapore I saw on a stopover at Changi airport, it seems as though the terrain would fit the wheeled option.

Due to our "Forward defence" doctrine, atm all the AFVs that are meant for that role are tracked in view of the terrain that they may encounter.

For operation within SG, People's Defence Force( PDF) and the Field Defence Sqn for airbases are using the 4x4 wheeled V-200s.

But it seem that there are great changes to SAF not only in 3G(NCW) revolution but based on the report, there is also apparent changes structurally of some those "Forward Defence" Div.

The Bde of wheeled IFV that they are looking at as well as the training over in Alaska seem to suggest that SAF is preparing for a wheeled IFV mechanised Bde specialising in Urban warfare in towns and cities similar to US Stryker Bde.

[Chino]

Singapore defensive doctrine is borne out of WW2. The defence of Singapore failed in 1942 due to the inability of the British Army to stop the Japanese in Malaya. Accordingly, the defence doctrine is to defend the island as far forward as it possibly can. The island itself, is not really defensible from a ground attack.


Actually the Brits invented Forward Defense for WW2. They may not have called it "Forward Defence" but such was the nature of their plan.

We didn't invent it. But it is a logical plan whose merits are obvious then as it is now. We are a small island, if enemy lands, we will pay dearly.

The Brits fully expected the Japs to be coming from the North by early 1940's and that's why the bulk of the Brit/Indian/Aussie forces were in Malaysia.

They fully appreciated the need to stop the japs in Malaysia. (In fact, they were there at the Kota Bahru beach and nearly wiped out the initial Jap landing force.) The Brits fully understood that once the Japs come into Singapore all it lost.

The last ditch line was in Johore where the Aussies - a supposedly formidable force - would hold, should all else fail.

That the Allies failed to stop the Japs in Malaysia merely tells us that no plan/doctrine is failsafe. A superbly-led, well-equipped and determined enemy can still disrupt your best-laid defence plans once your initiative is lost.

Of course to those unfamiliar to the history ... not only were the Allies were poorly-equipped in nearly every aspect compared to the japs, many horrendous mistakes were made by the Allies.

The Jap advance down the Malay Peninsula equals the German blitzkreig and ended in the biggest single defeat for Great Britain ever.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Chino]

That's not accurate. The british defensive deployments was less forward and more like trying to cover everywhere.

How is it not accurate?

When it was identified the invasion is coming from the North, the Brits went up to Malaysia to stop them in earnest. In fact, they even wanted to invade Thailand (Ops Matador) much earlier to prevent just such a Jap landing which they predicted.

If this isn't "Forward Defence" thinking on their part, I don't know what is.

I am a Singaporean, too, but it is folly to think that we invented everything and the Brits nothing. They lost not because they were hopelessly crap. They lost because the Japs were just so much better.

...

In essence, what I meant by Forward Defence already being the policy in WW2 is that the Brits recognised that it will be very difficult to fight an enemy already on Singapore soil - the island is too small and does not permit defence in depth.

If such a situation occurs - as it did in WW2 - there will essentially be no front line or rear.

To risk further annoying you - isn't our current defence deployment also "cover everywhere"?

What if the attack come from elsewhere - say the South?

Would we still activate "Forward Defence" and go North into Malaysia anyway?:)

[DavidDCM]

I don't think so, because that would force Malaysia into joining the conflict, as an enemy of Singapore, and that would definately not be what Singapore wants. Might be an interesting topic in the Strategy and Tactics Forum (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=33), I think.

[swerve]

...I am a Singaporean, too, but it is folly to think that we invented everything and the Brits nothing. They lost not because they were hopelessly crap. They lost because the Japs were just so much better.
...

The British forces had a very poor commander (Weasel's right about how pathetic Percival was), & the misfortune to be facing a very able Japanese general. I've seen speculation about what would have happened if Yamashita & Homma had swapped places, so Yamashita commanded the Japanese invasion of the Philippines. The general opinion seems to be that the Japanese would still have won both campaigns, but the Philippines would now be remembered as the lightning victory.

Interesting discussion in the Straits Times some years ago. Worth looking through the letters linked to.

http://ourstory.asia1.com.sg/war/headline/church.html

I

[Chino]

The British forces had a very poor commander (Weasel's right about how pathetic Percival was), & the misfortune to be facing a very able Japanese general.

Weasel's original post in question implied that SG formulated our current "Forward Defence" doctrine out of the Brit's failure to stop the Japs in Malaya.

My contention is that the Brits' defence in WW2 was essentially "Forward Defence" doctrine in action. Brilliant as we may think ourselves to be, we didn't invent this doctrine.

...

Agreed...There is no doubt Percival was a poor commander compared to Yamashita - one of Japan's ablest.

However, a more recent book like "Singapore Burning" by Colin Smith begins to take a more broad-view of Percival failure. He stops short of exonerating him - that Percival is a weak commander, indecisive, etc is beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But the book examines some of the problems facing him that Yamashita was (unfortunately) free of.

Not my own views, but that of the author:

• Being the attacker, Yamashita held the initiative and never lost it. He decided every move and the Brits had to react accordingly.

• No fault of Percival, Allied forces were not as well-equipped as the Japs. In fact, Percival had long before asked for planes and other assets that he never received.

• Again not his fault, many Allied units were green whereas the Japs were seasoned troops from China.

Furthermore...

• The Japs were a determined homogenous force, the Allies were an uneven patchwork of Brit, Aussies, Indians and local troops all of varying quality. Some Brit, Indian, Aussie units were excellent including a Malay platoon under Adnan. But some others broke and ran sometimes before a shot is fired. An airbase was abandoned even before the enemy approached.

• Some commanders disobeyed Percival and acted on their own initiative. A Royal Navy commander while persuing Jap navy decided not to inform SG HQ command his flotilla was in serious trouble, One Aussie commander shifted his forces during the defence of Singapore opening a gap.

...

The Allies were bad, but they were not hopelessly so. There were excellent troops who gave a very good account of themselves despite the odds. And many heroic sacrifices.

Cowardice and insurbodination by certain units or individuals cannot be blamed on Percival.

Brit intel was mostly good. They knew Jap will land in Thailand. Brit recce planes spotted the Jap armada etc etc. But the follow-up action wasn't so hot.

Against a lesser enemy, these mistakes may not have guaranteed defeat.

But they were fighting against some of the best and most seasoned troops in WW2 under one of the best field commander.

[Chino]

Interesting discussion in the Straits Times some years ago. Worth looking through the letters linked to.

http://ourstory.asia1.com.sg/war/headline/church.html

I

Just read the link.

From the website:

"The concept of forward defence was propounded as early as 1918, even before the idea of the Singapore naval base came up."

So, "Forward Defence" is older than I thought.

Further...

"The book cited a War Office note sent to Churchill which stated categorically that "effective protection from landward attack can only be given by holding the Peninsula in northern Johor or beyond."

"The backdoor to Singapore could only be bolted by holding the hinterland ... by in-depth defence of Johor and the Malay Peninsula," said the book.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[swerve]

Weasel, I think you're missing Chinos point. If I understand him correctly, he's saying (& I agree), that the notion of forward defence had been formulated, & plans drawn up to put it into effect, before WW2. It was the agreed British strategy for the defence of Singapore. The fact that Percivals implementation of the strategy was poorly executed, whether due to his own weaknesses, Churchills intervention, the failings of his subordinates, or a combination of all these factors, does not invalidate what Chino says.

To what extent (if any) Singapores plans draw on pre-war British plans, I have no idea, except that they both envisage defending Singapore as far as possible from the island itself, but I'm sure that Singapores armed forces command has studied the Malaya campaign of 1941-42 in detail, & is well aware of what went wrong - and right - for the Commonwealth forces, & has taken both into account when drawing up its own plans.

[Schumacher]

A quote from an interview with Lee Kuan Yew. I guess basically saying what's been said by others in this thread, i.e. S'pore has to be on the offensive once attacked. Adopting a defensive tactic or being subjected to a siege is hopeless.....

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/29/asia/lee-excerpts.php

'....If there were no international law and order, and big fish eat small fish and small fish eat shrimps, we wouldn't exist. Our armed forces can withstand an attack and inflict damage for two weeks, three weeks, but a siege? (laughs).....'

[Chino]

The notion that our current (and much vaunted) "Forward Defence" policy was actually a British invention, admittedly will take a bit of time to accept.

(They lost, didn't they?)

I will not try to change your mind but do take some time to read the link Swerve posted.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[paskal]

Singapore plans multiple rocket launcher, IFV acquisitions
Robert Karniol JDW Asia-Pacific Bureau Chief
Bangkok

Key Points
Singapore is seeking to acquire its first multiple rocket system and first wheeled IFV


The Singapore Army is enhancing its firepower and mobility capabilities with the planned acquisition of its first multiple rocket launcher (MRL) and its first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle (IFV).

The MRL requirement is for 18 systems, with the request for proposals currently in progress. First deliveries are expected in about 18 months.

Contenders for the contract remain unclear, but sources told Jane's that talks on the programme are under way with the US. This suggests that potential candidates include the 227 mm Multiple Launch Rocket System and the High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System, both from Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.

The IFV programme is aimed to equip three battalions, with initial deliveries expected around the end of 2008. The locally developed Singapore Technologies (ST) Kinetics 8 x 8 Terrex AV81 IFV is among several platforms under consideration; other options remain unknown.

The army most recently upgraded its artillery with the introduction of ST Kinetics' Pegasus 155 mm/39 calibre Singapore Lightweight Howitzer, unveiled in late 2005. This supplemented the ST Kinetics Primus 155 mm/39 calibre self-propelled artillery system that was revealed two years earlier.

The wheeled IFV would complement two tracked platforms in current service: the ST Kinetics Bionix IFV, operationally deployed since 1999; and the older Giat Industries AMX-10P infantry combat vehicle.

The Singapore Army will further bolster its capabilities with deliveries, due to start in mid-2008, of 66 ex-German Armed Forces Krauss-Maffei Wegmann Leopard 2A4 main battle tanks, together with an additional 30 platforms earmarked as spares. These are intended to replace AMX-13 light tanks.

The planned acquisitions are linked to a broader force modernisation programme currently in progress and dubbed the third-generation Singapore Armed Forces.

i dont think singapore will buy the launcher....
besides there is now direct agreement of the purchase...
but if theres 1 malaysian armed forces will fell an armed race going on between the 2 countries!!!

[Ramjetmissile]

September 13, 2007
U.S. eyes $330 million artillery sale to Singapore
By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Defense Department said on Wednesday it was tentatively planning to sell Singapore advanced Lockheed Martin Corp artillery rocket systems that could cost as much as $330 million.
Singapore has asked to buy 18 M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System launchers complete with nine medium tactical vehicle 5-ton trucks, communications sets and 32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS rockets, the Pentagon told Congress.
The system, known as HIMARS, is designed to defeat artillery, air defenses, trucks, light armour and personnel carriers.
It would give Singapore a highly effective military capability critical to deterrence and national defense, the Pentagon's Defense Security and Cooperation Agency said. It said the total value could be $330 million if all options were exercised.
HIMARS supplements traditional canon artillery by delivering high-volume firepower in a short time against time-sensitive targets, the notice to Congress said.
"The proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in Southeast Asia," the notice said.
On Aug. 24, the agency told Congress that Singapore was also seeking up to 84 precision-guided bombs for its F-15 fighter jet fleet as part of a military package valued at up to $200 million.
The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law. It does not mean a sale has been concluded. Congress retains the power to block a sale but rarely does so.


- ENDS -

[paskal]

September 13, 2007
U.S. eyes $330 million artillery sale to Singapore
By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Defense Department said on Wednesday it was tentatively planning to sell Singapore advanced Lockheed Martin Corp artillery rocket systems that could cost as much as $330 million.
Singapore has asked to buy 18 M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System launchers complete with nine medium tactical vehicle 5-ton trucks, communications sets and 32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS rockets, the Pentagon told Congress.
The system, known as HIMARS, is designed to defeat artillery, air defenses, trucks, light armour and personnel carriers.
It would give Singapore a highly effective military capability critical to deterrence and national defense, the Pentagon's Defense Security and Cooperation Agency said. It said the total value could be $330 million if all options were exercised.
HIMARS supplements traditional canon artillery by delivering high-volume firepower in a short time against time-sensitive targets, the notice to Congress said.
"The proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in Southeast Asia," the notice said.
On Aug. 24, the agency told Congress that Singapore was also seeking up to 84 precision-guided bombs for its F-15 fighter jet fleet as part of a military package valued at up to $200 million.
The notice of a potential sale is required by U.S. law. It does not mean a sale has been concluded. Congress retains the power to block a sale but rarely does so.


- ENDS -

there is no such thing...the deal havent been clinch yet!
the only reason singapore doesnt wanna do this because an armed race will begin between singapore n malaysia!

[gf0012-aust]

i dont think singapore will buy the launcher....
besides there is now direct agreement of the purchase...
but if theres 1 malaysian armed forces will fell an armed race going on between the 2 countries!!!

Paskal.

You need to slow down before responding. One of your posts has been reported as offensive already.

Please read the forum rules before posting or answering anymore threads.

If you cannot comply, then you run the risk of being suspended for a few days.

I do not want to see this happen, but we will have no choice if you do not change your posting behaviour.

[Ramjetmissile]

CHilli out Man:) nobody said that a deal has been concluded. However, judging from past procurement pattern. Singapore mindef would usually give a second thought before making any requests so i must say that this planned procurements will eventually be a reality.

[gary1910]

Oh yeah!!!"60km Sniper"

As for arms race, MY already got their Astros II, so in reality we are just keeping up with the Jonese.

For SG case, when it is widely reported, it will usually comes true.
In fact, we usually try to " keep the smoke out so to hide the fire":D

[Red]

If it is already reported by the Us Dept of Defense in such a form, it is most definitely a `yes'.

The XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS rockets are based on the M30 Guided MRLS. The range has been said to be between 60-100 km. Most sites mention an effective range of above 70 km. The best thing about this rocket is that it is extemely accurate as opposed to normal MLRS rockets which are unguided.

As I`ve said in my last post, Singapore would operate the Himars more as a precision attack system rather than normal saturation artillery systems because of the large number of 155m tube artillery which Singapore already posseses.

One thing to note is that for 18 systems, Singapore is buying 36 rockets? I believe that there will be a separare order for additional rockets similar to the F-15s purchase whereby additional weapons were procured later. This would make things easier to swallow among Singapore`s immediate neighbours.

The other possibility is that Singapore might be putting Isreali guided rockets on the Himars with ranges of up to 150 km.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[gary1910]

One thing to note is that for 18 systems, Singapore is buying 36 rockets? I believe that there will be a separare order for additional rockets similar to the F-15s purchase whereby additional weapons were procured later. This would make things easier to swallow among Singapore`s immediate neighbours.

The other possibility is that Singapore might be putting Isreali guided rockets on the Himars with ranges of up to 150 km.

Local media has reported that we are exercising the intital 9 Himars.

I just notice something from the official US DoD news release:


32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS Pods

One pod has 6 GMLRS , so 32 pods have 192 GLMRS!!!!

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Red]

You know Gary. I think you are right. There has been some confusion over the Strait Times report about the 9 5-tonners. But, if you read the report, it states that the deal is worth $330 million USD. That means that Singapore is buying everything as stated in the US Dept of Defense news release.

The launchers come complete with the pre-requisiste trucks carrying them.

A single M142 HIMARS system launcher consists of 1 missile pod mounted on a 5 tons 6x6 truck. Therefore, a Himars launcher would include the truck as well.

Hence, it would be 18 launchers in total plus the other items. The 9 5-tonners trucks are likely support vehicles to support the 18 Himars launchers.

----------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON, September 12, 2007 - The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Singapore of High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $330 million.

The Government of Singapore has requested a possible sale of
Major Defense Equipment (MDE)

18 M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS) Launchers
32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS Pods
30 M28A1 Multiple Launcher Rocket Systems (MLRS) Practice Rocket Pods
35 VRC-92E Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radios Systems (SINCGARS)
45 VRC-90E SINCGARS
35 VRC-990 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
45 VRC-950 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
9 M1084A1 Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV) 5-Ton Trucks
1 M1089A1 Wrecker

Also included are support equipment, communications equipment, spare and repair parts, test sets, batteries, laptop computers, publications and technical data, personnel training and equipment, systems integration support, support services of a Quality Assurance Team and a Technical Assistance Fielding Team, United States (U.S.)

Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $330 million.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that has been, and continues to be, an important force for economic progress in Southeast Asia.

The HIMARS will enhance Singapore’s military capability by providing a highly effective indirect area fire artillery system that is critical to successful deterrence and national defense. HIMARS supplements traditional cannon artillery by delivering high volume firepower in a short time against time-sensitive targets. At shorter ranges, HIMARS complements tube artillery with heavy barrages against assaulting forces, counter-fire and defense suppression. Singapore will have no difficulty absorbing and integrating this system into its armed forces.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

-----------------------------------------------------------

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2007/Singapore_07-48.pdf

[Red]

One pod has 6 GMLRS , so 32 pods have 192 GLMRS!!!!


Yeah. You are right. But I believe that that a supplementary second order for more rockets is coming similar to our procurement style. It minimizes the political fall-out(if any) among our neighbours from buying a clearly offensive if not offending weapon.

[haenbrink]

SIngapore paper Straits Times had said today that Singapore is gonig to spend $500Million DOllars to acquire the Himars MRLS system WIth 32 gps guided rockets which most probably will be the Atacms

[LazerLordz]

SIngapore paper Straits Times had said today that Singapore is gonig to spend $500Million DOllars to acquire the Himars MRLS system WIth 32 gps guided rockets which most probably will be the Atacms

You sure the ATACMS is mentioned? I don't think so.

[haenbrink]

You sure the ATACMS is mentioned? I don't think so.

Well It did mention GPS guided rockets so IT may be ATACMS or may be the conventional air bursting type.

[Grand Danois]

Well It did mention GPS guided rockets so IT may be ATACMS or may be the conventional air bursting type.

You can read it from the designation:

18 M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS) Launchers
32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS Pods
30 M28A1 Multiple Launcher Rocket Systems (MLRS) Practice Rocket Pods
35 VRC-92E Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radios Systems (SINCGARS)
45 VRC-90E SINCGARS
35 VRC-990 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
45 VRC-950 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
9 M1084A1 Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV) 5-Ton Trucks
1 M1089A1 Wrecker

ATACMS has the designation M39. I.e. no ATACMS have been ordered.

[haenbrink]

You can read it from the designation

18 M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS) Launchers
32 XM31 Unitary High Explosive GMLRS Pods
30 M28A1 Multiple Launcher Rocket Systems (MLRS) Practice Rocket Pods
35 VRC-92E Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radios Systems (SINCGARS)
45 VRC-90E SINCGARS
35 VRC-990 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
45 VRC-950 Vehicular Radio Communications Sets
9 M1084A1 Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV) 5-Ton Trucks
1 M1089A1 Wrecker

ATACMS has se designation M39. I.e. no ATACMS have been ordered.
OK thanks for the info

[gary1910]

XM31 unitary GMLRS has a tri-mode fuze include an airburst mode, which detonates above the target point; a point detonate mode, which impacts at the target point; and a delay mode, which impacts below the target point.

Watch this video of the testing of XM31:

YouTube - Bunker buster

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Red]

I think you're right. Even the original ST report appeared to mention 32 "rockets" instead of pods. As mentioned, the similar price tag does suggest all options have been exercised.

Lol. Yeah. 32 rockets ? You know... that was my first interpretation too when I had a glancing look at the DOD`s press release. I realised they were 32 XM31 pods later.

Anyway, the Straits Times report even suggested that we bought the M30 rockets but the offer was for XM31 rockets. Best to refer to the Department of Defense`s official press release since afterall the deal would, in fact, cost Singapore $330 million USD. Hence, Singapore has decided to buy everything offered. And the 9 M-1084 trucks are actually utility cargo trucks and should not be confused with a Himars launcher which actually comes with the truck carrier.

Perhaps, it is deliberate in order not to affect sensitivities.

[Dugong101]

nice post, thanks for sharing...

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[gary1910]

Sorry , posted on the wrong thread.

[paskal]

i just wanna ask when will it reach into singapore army hands?
So long and still no news about it.:confused:
ive benn looking everywhere in the internet including the singapore army website.
i dont see anything about it.
As what i now the deal have been clinch already thats what i heard.

[gary1910]

i just wanna ask when will it reach into singapore army hands?
So long and still no news about it.:confused:
ive benn looking everywhere in the internet including the singapore army website.
i dont see anything about it.
As what i now the deal have been clinch already thats what i heard.

US Dod only announced that possible deal only last month, as I said in the other thread, SG Mindef will only officially announce it after the deal is done.

Perhaps checking the news from Lockheed Martin website could be much faster.

[SGMilitary]

Dear All,

SAF will definitely go ahead with the purchase of HIMARS.

The acquisition will not halt at 18 launchers.

There will be follow up batches of additional 36 launchers similar to their other

artillery equipments such as Pegasus 155mm LWH, Primus 155mm SPH which

listed as operating 54 units of each from WIKIPEDIA.

Lastly, there will be additional LEOPARD 2A4 tanks procured.

These tanks wlll be modernised by Singapore Technologies.

Thanks & regards.

[Ramjetmissile]

:) Evidence?

[M21]

I don't know why they want to arm rocket launchers. size of the country, location, population and political stage, they are just like a city in Asia country, but why they want to arm it.......I doubt that they want warn Malaysia.? or they are scare the muslim territorist attack them? the reasons I really don't know.

[swerve]

I don't know why they want to arm rocket launchers. size of the country, location, population and political stage, they are just like a city in Asia country, but why they want to arm it.......I doubt that they want warn Malaysia.? or they are scare the muslim territorist attack them? the reasons I really don't know.

The weapons being discussed are artillery rockets, for tactical use, not long-range ballistic missiles. Nothing to do with terrorists (absolutely useless against them), & unlikely to be for warning Malaysia.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Red]

The SAF is not targeted at MY primarily because there is no reason to do so. Water was perhaps the singular issue that may have sparked a conflict but that has been resolved with the water self sufficiency measures. Even the so called Johor line requirement is slowly being eliminated from defence strategy because of the removal of the water constraint.


:D Good imagination.

Anyway, the defence minister has officially confirmed the planned induction of the himars recently although we dont always officially annouce every single buy.

Something else big and significant is coming our way soon. :p: Hopefully, it will be announced this year. :)

[Chino]

Singapore will ALWAYS have to guard our very vulnerable back door - Malaysia.

It is not necessarily the Malaysians we have to guard against. For example in 1942 it was the Japs who came from that direction.

It is a simple - and unalterable - geographical consideration

[Pert]

IMO, SAF just want to be much better than their neighbours...
it just like early warning...make their potential enemy think twice before strike singapore, if war cant be avoided, they are capable to defense and strike their enemy...they cant win with defense only,they must srike back...
they cant afford to face massive bombing, so they must implement forward defense...as simple as that...

......................buy a weapon is like buy an insurance............................

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Red]

IMO, SAF just want to be much better than their neighbours...
it just like early warning...make their potential enemy think twice before strike singapore, if war cant be avoided, they are capable to defense and strike their enemy...they cant win with defense only,they must srike back...
they cant afford to face massive bombing, so they must implement forward defense...as simple as that...

......................buy a weapon is like buy an insurance............................


IMO, turn the statement around by saying that the neighbours have failed to be better in the fields that matter. Get out of the country versus country mode and read the rules.

To the contrary, Singapore`s main infrastructures are hardened for massive bombing and such and the same cannot be said of Singapore`s neighbours. There`s a relatively modern war bunker less than 100 metres from where im typing this.

No one can win anything by defence alone. Every country will do what it can to sustain herself.

[Red]

Singapore military ties with Thailand are excellent; much much better than Malaysia. The level of suspicion and the potential animosity just is`nt there. Hence, it is not surprising Singapore trains in various parts of Thailand. The topography in Thailand is not much different from Singapore and it is very useful for training.

At the same time, Singapore is also active in Thai military modernization plans with upgrade proposals for Thai F16s, new LPDs, etc. It seems that the Thais are keen on the Endurance LPD platform. SAR-21 rifles are also in used by certain Thai units. Im sure ST would want to expand the market further in Thailand.

The SG defence policy has evolved into a more flexible focus which no longer assumes any specific adversary unlike the 70/80s where the adversary focus was very much on Vietnam. I think it is also a reflection of ever-changing geo-politique realities.


There are specific potential enemies and there are potential enemies. Vietnam was on the radar screen. Never the main focus.

In addition, I think a lot of the ideas about the movement of Singaporean forces come from Tim Huxley`s book. Quite a lot are speculative unfortunately.

Chino has summed it up quite well. The SAF will do whatever it can to secure the main island of Singapore. But it doesn`t automatically mean protecting Malaysian interests or anyone else for that matter. The SAF does`nt exist to protect Malaysia. Vice-Versa.

[Red]

Anyway, Singapore`s military budget has been raised again this year. Around $10.8 billion Sg dollars or $7.8 billon US dollars. Was $ 7.1 billion Us dollars last year.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Schumacher]

Singapore military ties with Thailand are excellent; much much better than Malaysia. The level of suspicion and the potential animosity just is`nt there. Hence, it is not surprising Singapore trains in various parts of Thailand. The topography in Thailand is not much different from Singapore and it is very useful for training.

At the same time, Singapore is also active in Thai military modernization plans with upgrade proposals for Thai F16s, new LPDs, etc. It seems that the Thais are keen on the Endurance LPD platform. SAR-21 rifles are also in used by certain Thai units. Im sure ST would want to expand the market further in Thailand.
.............

Yup, looks like most aspects of the relationship is now back on track with the new pro-Thaksin government back in power.

[Pert]

IMO, turn the statement around by saying that the neighbours have failed to be better in the fields that matter. Get out of the country versus country mode and read the rules.

To the contrary, Singapore`s main infrastructures are hardened for massive bombing and such and the same cannot be said of Singapore`s neighbours. There`s a relatively modern war bunker less than 100 metres from where im typing this.

No one can win anything by defence alone. Every country will do what it can to sustain herself.

dude, do you think you are one of the citizen who can simply enter the bunker?
how much SG population, 4millions++ right? how big the bunker? not more 50k people can enter this "powerful" bunker..who do you thing the SAF will give the priority to enter?Minister and family,expatriates, businessman, high rank military personal and family,bla,bla,bla.:onfloorl: to protect all Singaporean, SAF have to build underground bunker almost entire Singapore..
this is one of the bad effect when one country too much rely on technology. im afraid you are too optimist just because your "sure win" calculation on the paper rather than many factor in war...
actually it is good to be neutral in this forum...dont just stress on your advantages, you cant see your weaknesses...
peace to SEA country!

[Pert]

IMO, turn the statement around by saying that the neighbours have failed to be better in the fields that matter. Get out of the country versus country mode and read the rules.

To the contrary, Singapore`s main infrastructures are hardened for massive bombing and such and the same cannot be said of Singapore`s neighbours. There`s a relatively modern war bunker less than 100 metres from where im typing this.
No one can win anything by defence alone. Every country will do what it can to sustain herself.

dude, do you think you are one of the citizen who can simply enter the bunker?
how much SG population, 4millions++ right? how big the bunker? not more 50k people can enter this "powerful" bunker..who do you thing the SAF will give the priority to enter?Minister and family,expatriates, businessman, high rank military personal and family,bla,bla,bla.:onfloorl: to protect all Singaporean, SAF have to build underground bunker almost entire Singapore..
this is one of the bad effect when one country too much rely on technology. im afraid you are too optimist just because your "sure win" calculation on the paper rather than many factor in war...
actually it is good to be neutral in this forum...dont just stress on your advantages, you cant see your weaknesses...
peace to SEA country!

[Chino]

The likelihood of another amphibious landing in MY is v. low considering the agm/asm ability of the RSAF, the RMAF and the amphibious capabilities of surrounding neighbours.

Honestly, and with respect... it is a very common assumption especially among us Singaporeans that just because we have this/that, plus the potential threat do not have this/that... so therefore such and such a threat scenario is low or unlikely.

This is especially alarming because the Brits also thought the same circa WW2 - that Singapore won't/cannot be invaded and that the Japs in particular, cannot hack it.

History have consistently provided much evidence to the contrary. Just because you have this/that weapons, even if you knew EXACTLY when and where they are coming, is NEVER a guarantee they won't succeed.

Especially after the escape of JI terrorist and the subsequent FAILURE to find him on our tiny little island by the vaunted Gurkhas, SAF and Singapore Pigs Force, surely we should be less confident and complacent about our alleged capabilities?

Another telling incident is that of our super hi-tech patrol craft being accidentally rammed by a Indon freighter while guarding a disputed islet several years ago. Our Navy personnel are so friggin' inept they can't even see or take appropriate evasive action against a big passing freighter. What chance do we stand against a determined invader?

Sorry, Weasel and all Singaporeans, our military is just for show. The sooner we admit this, the sooner we can improve.


The SG defence policy has evolved into a more flexible focus which no longer assumes any specific adversary unlike the 70/80s where the adversary focus was very much on Vietnam. I think it is also a reflection of ever-changing geo-politique realities.


Yes, during my time in Brigade S2 from '83 - '85 our imaginary enemy for exercise purpose was the Vietnamese though they were not mentioned by name. We had a thick field manual with a blue cover - classified only as Restricted - that details their equipment, organization and even the character of certain commanders. That book was so outdated even then. Wonder who the new imaginary enemy for S2 is these days.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[cm07]

Pert - All HDB flats comes with a "bomb" shelter though it's misused right now by everyone! Bomb shelters do not just include the stations themselves. Think about what links the stations together!

Weasel - Last time i don my green, the manuals have been updated 200X. It was recent enough for the exercise to be a tough one.

Chino - Now they are all green covered. I did read some blue covered ones, but they were really old manuals which were signed up for burning :P. Enemy status has been updated - newer equipment, more equipment, upgraded equipment.

[Chino]

Chino - Now they are all green covered. I did read some blue covered ones, but they were really old manuals which were signed up for burning :P. Enemy status has been updated - newer equipment, more equipment, upgraded equipment.

Hehe, logically a field manual on OPFOR should be red cover, but red is reserved for "secret" classification.

Green is for "confidential" and blue for "restricted".

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Red]

Difference due to exchange rates. S$10.58bil last year. As a % of GDP, the 2008 expenditure is lower.

I think the Govt will take the opportunity to hedge for the next F-15 purchase. Its already a 10% discount from last year.

The next major procurement could involve the 31 AS332L1 super pumas. The bulk of these are 20+ years already.

I wonder if the RSAF will go full CH-47 fleet, adopt the blackhawk, EH101 or NH-90 or just maintain with new cougars?

It is still a monetary increase of $724,821,000 SG dollars.This excludes the strengthening of the Singapore dollar versus the Us dollar which makes it sweeter of course.

I heard that Boeing is offering Singapore 20 more F15SGs at a discount because S.K will be buying just 20 more F15Ks instead of the original 40 additional F15Ks. So Boeing gets thier 40 additional F15s sold eventually. However, this is just speculation.

It was reported in the latest DTI by Aviationweek that Singapore is interested in the latest CH47f;

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0408/

page 28

Singapore currently operates around 34 Cougars and 18-20 Chinooks transport helicopters. The Cougars are performing wonderfully as compared to some other helicopters in Asia in spite of thier age. Great record. They still look brand new. And they are operating all over the place; including deployment to other countries for training, exercises and deployments. Blackhawks look nice and reliable replacements for the Cougars/Super Pumas. But imho this is not really a priority. The Cougars are still good. We might get more Chinooks though.

[Red]

Honestly, and with respect... it is a very common assumption especially among us Singaporeans that just because we have this/that, plus the potential threat do not have this/that... so therefore such and such a threat scenario is low or unlikely

I agree to a certain extent Chino. A by product of our recent successes. However, I also believe that we do prepare for the differing eventualities and are aware of the such possibilities. If anything, the training I have got has made me more circumspect of the goals we want to achieve and the goals potential enemies want to achieve. It goes both ways.

However, I do not believe our forces are just for show. So, I disagree with you on that score. There is a lot to defend for what I have contributed here and the same goes with my buddies I have here. There will always be critics however.


That's the point of having regulars in the RSAF. There will be odd incidents like the courageous PV incident but the capabilities are now more in the equipment than in the personnel itself (compared to the 70s/80s).

The fact is that everyone has its share of incidents even the Japanese recently with the fishing boat collision or US sub captain hitting underwater mountain.


Some of the NS officers are better than some of the regular officers. Anyway, you`re right there Weasel. Some armed forces with more professional soldiers have an even worser record. Par the course. Accidents happen. It`s not like they happen every other month or year or decade.

[Red]

Some propaganda...http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://www.mindef.gov.sg/etc/medialib/imindef_media_library/graphics/army/army_news/download_our_issues/pdf.Par.0038.File.tmp/Special2007.pdf

Haha. Looks great. My only issue is that the future Singapore soldier will be carrying a load of stuffs but we would probably be more mechanized. That seems to the direction we are moving. I would like to see it being rolled out everywhere so we can see the quirks, problems, successes, etc :D And make the right changes.

[cm07]

Too much stuff = overload = troops on wheels = more logistics and fuel headaches? Maybe this is the reason why we arent set on the future infantry yet. Remember our armoured 5 ton?

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[cm07]

I think if you are referring to the local market, it's been cornered. On the other note: resistant to RPG? that's alot of armour unless you are talking about using slat. Considering that the civilian resources will beused to support the back end of logistics, it shouldnt require too much of armour to bog them down

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[SGMilitary]

Has the SAF ink the deal on HIMARS?

Between, what are the total units of Leopard 2A4 MBT's does the SAF

procured?

Are there plans to upgrade her current BX1 vehicles to BXII standards?

Anyone has any links to the above?

Many thanks!

Cheers!

[weasel1962]

Deleted