India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks [Archive]

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dabrownguy

December 23rd, 2003, 03:53 PM

Or will it actually be inducted into the Indian Army? I want to hear your opinons since i can't seem to find anything useful on the tank.
This is the information that I think isn't biased but it could be...
Arjun
At the end of the 1971 war, the Indian army realized the limitations of their tank fleet in the harsh desert conditions of Rajasthan, a northwestern Indian state bordering Pakistan, so they initiated their own MBT design. The Main Battle Tank (MBT) occupies a pivotal role in the present day battle field on account of its ability to provide accurate fire power with cross country mobility, reasonable protection from conventional and nuclear threats and flexible response to changing battle situations.

In order to eliminate dependence on foreign countries for design and manufacture of Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV) and to place the country on par with super powers with regard to quality of tanks and also to eliminate completely the requirement of foreign exchange (FE) in the production of tanks, Government in May 1974 sanctioned a project for design and development of MBT by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) at a total cost of Rs 15.50 crore (FE Rs 3.70 crore). The tanks were to be in service during 1985 to 2000 AD and were in replacement of existing tanks which were expected to be out-dated beyond 1985.

The first “Arjun” (named after a mythical Hindu warrior prince) concept was laid out in 1974 by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) of the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Based on 1971 battlefield experiences, the Arjun would have a locally-designed, rifled 120mm main gun, a German, MTU-based diesel powerplant (The Indians consider turbine engines fuel guzzlers), and a computerized fire control system with a laser rangefinder.

The Main Battle Tank Project sanctioned in May 1974 envisaged bulk production by April 1984. However this time frame was not adhered to and was revised from time to time and bulk production was to commence from 1990 onwards but even the revised time frame could not be adhered to. As per time frame fixed in May 1974, four mild steel prototypes were to be offered for trials by April 1980 and eight armoured prototypes by April 1982. Trickle production was due to commence by April 1983 and bulk production by April 1984. This schedule was revised from time to time.

One of the early Arjun prototypes was unveiled in April 1985, with a number of prototypes undergoing technical testing while desert trials were scheduled for that summer. At the time, it was reported to have a 120mm smooth-bore main gun and would use a 1400-hp MTU-based diesel until an indigenous one was ready. Weight would be about 50 tons, and the tank would cost about $1.6 million (U.S.). Development costs rose about 500 percent throughout the ’80s, and through a development process plagued with delays, the end product visually resembles the German Leopard II, however, unlike the German vehicle, its future remains in doubt.

A total of 12 MK-I prototypes based on imported propulsion unit, seven MK-II prototypes with indigenous propulsion were to be delivered by June 1987 and June 1990 respectively; 23 MK-I, PPS tanks by December 1988 and bulk production was to commence from 1990 onwards. As against this, 12 MK-I prototypes with imported propulsion were produced by February 1989 and 15 MK-I PPS tanks upto December 1996. MK-II type prototype were not expected to be ready in the near future on account of the delays in the development of the indigenous engine.

The automotive trials of two prototypes carried out by Army during 1988-89 revealed major deficiencies. The Army, therefore, on 26 July 1989 wanted these deficiencies to be sorted out before commencement of production of pre-production series (PPS). However, on 31 July 1989 Ministry decided to place orders for the production of PPS tanks. Two fully integrated prototypes were given to the Army for full fledged evaluation only in March 1990 after the commencement of production of PPS tanks. The evaluation trials of the prototypes also revealed major deficiencies. Subsequent trials were conducted on PPS tanks. Till July 1997, 15 pre-production series tanks which were subjected to extensive user and troop trials failed to meet fully even the bottom line parameters of the user.

As of mid-2000 India planned to acquire T-90 tanks, based on field trials which had already been completed. Although orders had been placed for the supply of 124 Arjun tanks through the Defence Research Development Organisation, it would be difficult to predict when these orders would be fufilled. Until such time, T-90 tanks would serve to counter Pakistan's T-85 tanks.

Pakistan’s announcment in 1995 of a deal with Ukraine to purchase T-84s caused a flurry of activity in the Indian tank development community. And on 9 January 1996, the Arjun was formally unveiled and cleared for mass production. Further improvements were deemed necessary even after the Arjun design profile was accepted again in July 1996. On 27 August 1996, the Defense Production and Supplies Secretary ordered 15 pre-production tanks from the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (at which point, estimates placed the project cost at $112 million).

The Summer trials carried out in April 1997 on PPS-15, reference tank for bulk production indicated that though there was improvement from the previous years, it was still below the acceptable standards. The major deficiencies pointed out in the summer trials of 1996 i.e. accuracy of gun at battle ranges, mission reliability, lethality of ammunition, containerisation of ammunition bin, emergency traverse etc. continue to persist and were yet to be solved. The Army accordingly indicated in July 1997 that in its present form, the overall reliability of MBT Arjun was far from satisfactory. The Army further indicated that periodic failures of equipment and subsystems tend to reduce the confidence level of troops. The Army also observed that the aspect of armour protection had not been tried out.Army recommended in June 1997 that Limited Series Production should commence only after all the observations and shortcomings noticed were rectified and shown to them.

As of mid-1997 the list of faults after 20 years of development was not encouraging. In addition to numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems, the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius (108° F). The DRDO has been considering scrapping the current Arjun fire control system in favor of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade program. Defects noticed during the user trials of the Arjun Mk.1 MBT, including over-heating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had supposedly been “by and large overcome” while other complaints were being addressed.

MBT Arjun in its present form will require increased maintenance time and efforts-says the Army. The Army accordingly expressed grave concern on the reliability and maintainability of MBT and pointed out that while the world over the trend was to reduce the maintenance time, it had increased with MBT Arjun. According to DRDO, the views expressed by the Army are only a subjective opinion and the analysis of data shows an upward trend in mean time between failures (MTBF) over the years. DRDO have pointed out that trials carried out clearly brought out the efficiency/improvements effected in weapon system and in the automotive area ability to cover the required range in the stipulated time was also proved. They further contended that there is no overheating of the engine in desert conditions. Summer trials of 1997 indicated that the performance was below the acceptable standards.

Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2, and Leclerc, the 59-ton "15th Variant" can achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country speed of 40 kph with its 1400-hp powerplant. The 1,610-liter fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles). To ensure crew survivability, production versions will have the indigenously-researched and developed ‘Kanchan’ composite armor, an automatic fire detection and suppression system, and an NBC protection system designed and built by the Bhabha Atomic Research Center.

The rifled 120mm gun, which includes a muzzle reference system, is made of ESR steel and is fitted with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor. All main gun rounds use a semi-combustible cartridge case with increased energy propellant for higher muzzle velocity and greater penetration characteristics. In addition to the usual suite of rounds, an anti-helicopter round is under development as well. The Arjun’s fire control system includes a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, stabilized panoramic sight for the tank commander, and a secondary telescopic sight. The LRF (integral to the gunner’s sight) has a range of nearly 10 km and a thermal imager (which can “see”’ at around 5.5 km, recognize a target at 3.1 km and identify targets at 2.5 km). The Arjun fire control system’s ability to fire on the move during the night is a major step forward for Indian armored forces.

The Chassis and Automative System of MBT Arjun comprises main chassis, power pack (1400 HP engine coupled to hydromech transmission), running gear with hydropneumatic suspension, integrated fuel system, advanced electrical system and other dedicated special systems like integrated fire detection and suppression system. The chassis is fabricated from rolled homogenous armour plate using advanced welding technique. Frontal armour is of Kanchan composite sandwitched between armour plates. This fully integrated Arjun chassis and Automative System having smooth riding characteristics can be used as a mobile platform for any advanced weapon system. An extremely effective hydropneumatic suspension system has been developed for MBT Arjun. The suspension is externally mounted and provides vehicle springing and damping. It consists of one bogey wheel pair for each suspension station. Gaseous medium in the hydropneumatic suspension is for all terrain maneuverability for exploiting the power available. Casing and hub of the hydropneumatic suspension are sealed for preventing dust ingression and water seepage into the casing during operation in marshy area or shallow/medium fording. The MBT Arjun is fitted with double-pin steel track with detachable rubber pads. It is made out of steel casting having two bores for insertion of rubberised pins. It is an integral piece incorporating guide horns and has got a provision for insertion of detachable pads. The end connectors are induction-hardened in the area which comes in contact with the sprocket teeth to prevent wear.

As the indigenous efforts to develop a suitable engine and transmission system for the MBT were beset with problems, 42 power packs with transmission units were imported between November 1983 and 1988 from Germany for use on the prototypes and PPS tanks. However, as the imported transmission system was designed to cater upto 60 tonne load as against the all-up weight of 61.5 tonne for the MBT, a mismatch had arisen between engine and transmission which had resulted in bulging of side walls of the hull.

The integrated fire and explosion suppression system developed for MBT Arjun is based on state-of-the-art technology. The indigenous development of this system is considered to be a breakthrough in the field of fire protection engineering. It is capable of suppressing hydrocarbon fuel fire/explosion resulting from an enemy hit on the tank or due to any malfunctioning of the engine, transmission or any electrical short circuiting. The system is based on infra-red detectors for the detection of fire/explosion in the crew compartment of the battle tank and a continuous type of linear thermal detector popularly known as fire-wire for the engine compartment. Halon-1301 has been employed as a fire extinguishing medium. The system is capable of detection and suppression of hydrocarbon fuel fire/explosion in the crew compartment within 200 milliseconds and in the engine compartment within 15 s thereby enhancing the chances of survivability of the crew and battle effectiveness of the tank.

The first 120 tanks to be built would cost $4.2 million each, while other cost estimates places the figure at $5.6 million each per tank by 2001, given a purchase of 124 tanks to equip two regiments. Production of the first batch of tanks might take more than the planned five years, given the capacity at the Avadi factory.

Planned Arjun variants include mobile assault guns, an observation post vehicle, an air defense (gun or missile) version, a recovery vehicle, an engineer vehicle, and bridgelayers. New bridgelayers and recovery vehicles were necessary, given the Arjun’s substantial weight increase over the T-72M1 series.

Specifications
ARJUN Mk 1 (15th Preproduction Model)

Weight 59 tons (58.5 tonnes)
Length (gun forwards) 10.19m
Width (over tracks) 3.5m
(w/ skirts) 3.85m
Height (w/o 12.7mm AAMG) 2.32m
Engine 1400 HP MTU 838 Ka 501Diesel
Transmission Semi-automatic with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears.(also reported as ZF automatic)
Fuel 1610 ltrs
PERFORMANCE
Max Speed 72-70 kph (55 mph)
Cross Country Speed 40 kph
Cruising Range 200 km (120 miles)
Ground Pressure . 84 kg/cm Square
Ground Clearance .45m
Slide Slope: 60%
Climbing Gradient 35°
Trench 2.43 m (also given as 3m)
Vertical Obstacle .9m
Ford 1.4 m
ARMAMENT
Main Gun 120mm, stabalized w/ MRS (APFSDS, HE, HEAT, HESH and smoke)
12.7mm AA Gun (probably NVST)
7.62mm Coax (probably PK-T)
2 X 9 Smoke Grenade Launchers
LRF Range 10 km
Sights Thermal (Max Rng 5.5 km)
Active and Passive
Defensive Systems 'Arena' a possibilty, probable Laser Warning System
and the link is...http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm
and also will the Arjun be better than the Russian T-90?

dabrownguy

December 23rd, 2003, 05:26 PM

Please state your reasons for your vote! I need to get a opinon here!

WebMaster

December 23rd, 2003, 05:53 PM

Note: Changed the subject to more approperiate and more indian friendly.

dabrownguy

December 23rd, 2003, 08:55 PM

From what I have read from some source I can't find again states that the Arjun will be equal to a Leapord mk III. But thats only on paper, if the scientest manage to fix the cooling system and fix the other bugs. They also need to make a transport that can handle the Arjun's weight and dimension.
Main Battle Tank, Arjun

Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun is a multi-laboratory programme of DRDO with CVRDE as the lead Laboratory. It is a state-of-the-art tank with superior fire power, high mobility, and excellent protection. Twelve Mk 1 prototypes of MBT Arjun have been manufactured and their performance tests have provided satisfactory results. Some of the breakthroughs achieved by CVRDE during the development of MBT Arjun are in Engine, Transmission, Hydropneumatic Suspension, Hull and Turret, and Gun Control System.

Salient Features

Fire Power

The superior armour defeating capability of the indigenously developed Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition and 120 mm calibre rifled gun give MBT ARJUN an edge over contemporary world tanks. A computer-controlled integrated fire control system incorporating day-cum-night stabilized sighting system guarantees a very high first round hit probability and reduced reaction time to bring effective fire on targets.

The stabilization system for the main armament, slaved to the sighting equipment in elevation and azimuth, with a high and accurate laying speed, allows fire on the move.

The superior fire power of MBT is based on:

Accurate and fast target acquisition capability during day and night and in all types of weather .
Shortest possible reaction time during combat engagements
Ability to accurately engage targets on move
Capability to destroy all possible enemy armour at maximum battle ranges
Excellent first hit probability
Main Armament

The rifled 120 mm ARJUN gun together with the newly developed super velocity ammunition, can defeat any contemporary armour used in tanks. The electro-slag refined gun steel tube is autofrettaged to withstand higher gas pressures. A thermal jacket prevents irregular temperature distribution on to the tube due to the weather influences.

Secondary Armament

A co-axial 7.62 mm machine gun for anti-personnel and a 12.7 mm machine gun for anti-aircraft and ground targets are provided as secondary weapons.

Gunner's Main Sight

Gunner's Main Sight consists of a day-sight, thermal sight, a laser range finder and a stabilized head common to all the three channels. The common sighting head mirror is stabilized in elevation and azimuth. The day- sight provides dual magnification.

The thermal imager provides night vision facility to the gunner and the commander to observe and engage target in total darkness and in the presence of smoke, dust, haze and light camouflage. Integral with the main sight is the laser range finder by which targets can be ranged accurately.

Panoramic Sight for Commander

Commander's panoramic sight enables the commander to effect an all round surveillance in the battlefield without removing his eyes from the sight and without being disturbed by the turret motion. The field of view is stabilized with the help of a two axes rate gyro-mounted on the platform of the head mirror. The sight offers dual magnification.

Ammunition

Two types of ammunition, viz, FSAPDS and HESH have been developed for this armament. The highly lethal
FSAPDS ammunition which is the main battle ammunition of the tank has accounted itself admirably during the trails. In addition, the anti-helicopter round to combat the air threat to armour is also under development.

Mobility

Low ground pressure, high power-to-weight ratio and new design concepts in transmission suspension and
running gear result in highly mobile and agile weapon platform.

The remarkable mobility of MBT which also adds to its protection is the result of:

High performance engine
Robust and effective transmission system particularly flexible hydropneumatic suspension .
Optimized running gear with its high shock energy absorption.
Due to the high power-to-weight ratio and low specific ground pressure, MBT is fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely mobile to cross the most difficult terrain with ease. High acceleration rapid braking capabilities with excellent steering characteristics make MBT agile in the battlefield. Adequate fuel storage capacity and relatively low fuel consumption allow for an optimal operational range.

An important criterion for the mobility of any AFV is the effective performance of the driver. Excellent vision systems both for day and night provide most effective means of observation in all battlefield conditions. The need to keep the crew's fatigue including that of driver at the minimum level over long periods of continuous operation, have been taken care of.

Protection

All round protection from anti-tank ammunition is achieved by t~e newly developed KANCHAN armour to a degree much higher than available in present generation tanks. The high degree of immunity is achieved by.

The computerised design and simulation
A fabricated turret housing lightweight compact KANCHAN armour
Careful dimensioning of wall through optimal slopes and angles
A low silhouette

Crew Comfort
Ergonometry, using anthropometric data of Indian troops, has been kept in view while designing the fighting and driving compartments to fully exploit the outstanding features of the weapon system. Hydropneumatic suspension provides excellent ride comfort for crew eliminating fatigue even on the extended runs.

Specifications
Dimensions
Overall length {with gun forward) 10.638 m
Overall height {with gun rear) 9.546 m
Overall height {with AD gun mount) 3.03 m(Turret roof: 2.32 m)
Overall width 3.864 m
Combat weight 58.5 tons

Technical Characteristics
Max speed 70 km/hr
Max speed on cross country 40 km/hr
Ground pressure 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
Engine power 1400 HP at 2400 rpm
Engine characteristics V 90° Turbo charged diesel, 10 cylinder water cooled
Power-to-weight ratio 24:1 HP/ton
Gear box 4 fwd +2 rev gears Epicyclic gear train, Torque converter, Mech lockup clutch & hydrodynamic retarder
Steering Double radii, mechancial steering with neutral turn
Suspension Hydrogas
Shallow fording 1.4 m
Vertical obstacle 0.914 m
Trench crossing 2.43 m
Gradient 35 deg
Gun 120 mm rifled
Rate of fire 6-8 rounds per minute
Ammunition 39 rounds (FSAPDS/HESH)
Co-axial machine gun Mag 7.62 mm Tk 715 A
Anti aircraft machine gun HCB 12.7 mm
Fire control system Director type
Gun control system Electro-hydraulic
Night vision Thermal imaging
Ballistic computer Digital
Crew 4 (Cmdr, Gnr, Ldr. Dvr)
I found this at DRDO.com.
Please opinons are valued I need some ones opinon.

Aussie Digger

December 23rd, 2003, 09:20 PM

Well given my background, this tank seems to me to be well designed and should prove to be a capable tank. I don't put much faith in marketing literature, "the 'lightweight' compact KANCHAN armour has been developed to provide much higher protection than any other tank" I find a bit debatable as well. It may be good, though in your own quote even the Indian Army has it's doubts about it's army. I wouldn't be too concerned about the developmental problems. It's a new vehicle. Every new piece of military hardware has 'teething' problems. Cheers.

dabrownguy

December 23rd, 2003, 09:48 PM

Thanks. But I already went to another forum to dicide. It seems a lot of people believe it is better than the T-90 and the Al-Khalid. The tanks problem was the engine. But the tank has much armor and is heavier than the T-90. Its hit and run accuracy is 90% which is awsome in my opinons. I have also heard India is working on a lighter tank, Tank Ex. India is also working on an improved version of the Arjun, Arjun 2. Any comments?

gf0012-aust

December 24th, 2003, 01:12 AM

Leopard 111?? There is no Leopard 111.

Isn't the Arjun a modified version of the Vickers MBT??

Aussie Digger

December 24th, 2003, 12:34 PM

Don't you find it a bit odd that they are working on an Arjun 2, before the Arjun comes into service?

umair

December 24th, 2003, 02:26 PM

It definitely is an impessive tank on paper.But I feel that the Indians have made a mistake by choosing a tank of such large dimensions for dessert warfare.I had a chat with my dad's cousin(he's in the army) about the vibility of such a tank in dessert terraine and he was doubtful of it's performance.The terraine of subcontinental desserts is quite soft unlike that of the arabian dessert. A tank of Arjun's dimensions may well find itself bogged down and outmanuvered by lighter medium tanks here(we learned this with our Pattons).The 90% first hit probability is great but the T-80s and Al-Khalids in service have also demostrated a first hit ratio greater than 90%.Coupled with the DU APFSDS munitions that Pakistan uses I would say that the Arjun might find itself a tad disadvantaged in battle.

dabrownguy

December 24th, 2003, 02:39 PM

That is true but the only majour problem is the engine and thats being worked on. Maybe its not better than the leapord, but I think it is better than the T-90. The Al-Khalid is a chinese version of the T-90. The Arjun when finshed will be one of the heaviest tanks in the world. I think the projects taking a long time because they started of with scratch so it was plagued with problems. When the problems are fixed it will be a formidable tank indeed. The tank is heavy, but i assume that the heavier the better the armor. The Arjun has a hit probability greater than 90% while moving.
It will also have some FSAPDS (SOFT CORE) AMMUNITION, I don't know much about it. This is the site http://www.drdo.com/products/fsapds.htm
I think this ammunition is to be used with the new tanks underdeveloment. Any comments?

mysterious

March 20th, 2004, 03:00 AM

gf0012-aust

March 20th, 2004, 04:11 AM

I think gf is right. The tank will get bogged down and will have a lot of battlefield difficulties.

Hmmm, I don't think I've actually said that.

BTW, the absolute tonnage of the tank doesn't mean much - depending on the environment it will be in.

What is critical is ground pressure - that is a distinctly different issue from absolute weight.

Any tank with a low ground pressure and a balanced HP to weight ratio will not be getting bogged.

cheenum

March 20th, 2004, 04:45 AM

Here are the Numbers

Ground pressure 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
Engine power 1400 HP at 2400 rpm
Power-to-weight ratio 24:1 HP/ton

Can Somebody translate it into Plain English and give their opinion on how heavy Arjun is !!!

I feel that Arjun has overcome its teething problems and maturing as a Tank. HVF Avadi is manufacturing the T90 along with Arjun MBT and thus all the defeciencies in the current model of Arjun MBT would be solved soon...
Arjun II will be a lot better !!!

cheenum

March 20th, 2004, 04:47 AM

But my opinion is T90 is a better tank than Arjun MBT. Thats why Indian Army is planning to use them both.

gf0012-aust

March 20th, 2004, 04:54 AM

Based on the numbers you have provided, the tank should be approx 58 tonnes

Lighter than an M1aX and a Chally 2

cheenum

March 20th, 2004, 05:05 AM

http://www.drdo.com/products/mbt.htm

This is from the DRDO's site

"Low ground pressure, high power-to-weight ratio and new design concepts in transmission suspension and
running gear result in highly mobile and agile weapon platform.

The remarkable mobility of MBT which also adds to its protection is the result of:

High performance engine
Robust and effective transmission system particularly flexible hydropneumatic suspension .
Optimized running gear with its high shock energy absorption.
Due to the high power-to-weight ratio and low specific ground pressure, MBT is fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely mobile to cross the most difficult terrain with ease. High acceleration rapid braking capabilities with excellent steering characteristics make MBT agile in the battlefield. Adequate fuel storage capacity and relatively low fuel consumption allow for an optimal operational range.

An important criterion for the mobility of any AFV is the effective performance of the driver. Excellent vision systems both for day and night provide most effective means of observation in all battlefield conditions. The need to keep the crew's fatigue including that of driver at the minimum level over long periods of continuous operation, have been taken care of."

Let the experts decide...

dabrownguy

March 20th, 2004, 04:19 PM

yutong chen

April 4th, 2004, 03:43 PM

With current economy in India, I don't think it can produce and high tech MBTs.

Panzer

April 4th, 2004, 06:04 PM

With current economy in India, I don't think it can produce and high tech MBTs.

Current economy in India ???

adsH

April 4th, 2004, 07:03 PM

I think they fixed the over heating problem by installing a Diesel Engine and replacing the Gas turbine engine which the Russians have used.
dabwrongguy said "the al-khalid is the Chinese version of T-90" sure it used Chinese expertise but it was designed by Ukrainian and Pakistani Engineers just like the Indians use Russians in there projects. In most cases you never end up developing any thing on your own i think that’s the case in most projects being developed in the world. I am not sure if the Chinese buy, have or are producing any T-90 I think they have a production line for T85 remember they like quantity rather than quality.
Correct me if i am wrong if you have a heavier Vehicle regardless of the engine wouldn't it make it difficult to climb hill like in Kashmir or wouldn't it need an extremely powerful engine that literally would drink out all the fuel in a climb and which would need refuelling constantly. If Arjun was the best vehicle for the job wouldn’t Russia, which produces some of, the best tanks would of thought of it, I mean there must be a reason why they chose to produce high tech but low weight vehicle ie T-90.

Roger Smith

April 7th, 2004, 02:29 PM

adsH

April 7th, 2004, 03:51 PM

With current economy in India, I don't think it can produce and high tech MBTs.

India can easily "buy out" advance technology for MBT with its current economy and foreign exchange reserves, which is at $110 billion. :)

Chen.............Neh ho ma? :smokingc:

PS: Chen, if you are a Chinese, you will understand what I said in Cantonese. ;)

Buying out tech for the whole or part of the 110 bill is not a sound economical move why buy it when u can invest in R&D and other growth earning opertunities. that 110 bill has to be invested in the economy i don't think its a good idea to keep in the bank means ur economy is not growing at the rate it should. UK reserves are kept at the lowest possible for investement so the economy grows thats why UK is a real power in the world we use our heads.
India has 200 million people below poverty line peole are dying of hunger how can any one think of becomeing a world power when ur people are dying of lack of food clean drinking water and education and health care, shows the insensitivity. that useless and unutilized 110 bill should be used as capital to invest in education helthcare and investment instead of spending it on defense( indias defense is adequate to defend itself in the short and the long runn its enormous man power is a deterent by its self) if your next generation is not as well and are dying your decreasing your productivity (thats why UK lets imgirants settle here in the UK). Family plaaning is important the population is unhealthy your(India'S) virtually non exsiting National helth service(if there is one) is under extreame presure. Reforms should be introduced to provide opertunities to the poorest and underprivileged people of the nation. the poor infrastructer should be mdernized like all means of transport roads, train service, highways and Airports sea ports and access to the remotest areas where electricity and telphone and water drainage and police service health care education should be provided. then there will be real productivity and growth, utilization of the entire poulation then you would be able to develop any thing and buy anything.

My personal opinion is that novices would say such ridiculous things like " "buy out" advance technology for MBT" "which is at $110 billion"

One more thing foreign exchange is used to buy food and settle forien debts so 110 bill in bank does not mean india does not have out standing foreign payments to settle. imports and exports. the reserves like that is only collected over years of saving spending all of it in a shopping spree would mean the spender is irresponsible.

The soviets decided to spend all there earned bucks on weapons system and there military and the result as expected they fell back on there backs, collapseing with the burden of there debts. and expense of maintaing defense.

BruteGorilla

April 23rd, 2004, 02:44 PM

dabrownguy,

It seems a lot of people believe it is better than the T-90 and the Al-Khalid.
Al Khalid is a light class and there is actually Tank -EX to compare with it. Noversion of T-90S is better than Arjun.

gf0012
Vickers is Vijyanta. Arjun is entirely new tank.

Aussie Digger
Don't you find it a bit odd that they are working on an Arjun 2, before the Arjun comes into service?

There are 50 odd tanks on initial Arjun design. Engine was underpowered so they started building on and german MTU engine.

umair
challenger had similar problems in Oman. Fortunately bothe Chalenger and arkuns are working fine in desert with modifications. How do you build a moderan tank without increasing the weight? If someone says a light takn X is best in the world, show him a mental asylum.

cheenum
But my opinion is T90 is a better tank than Arjun MBT. Thats why Indian Army is planning to use them both.
I differ. T-90S was inducted in haste. Arjuns are late in induction.

adsH,
fortunately, Arjun project has no russian engineers. Unlike China and Pakistan who actually employ renegade Russian and Ukranian scientist.
Russia wouldn't produce Arjun because of Black Eagle project.

mysterious

April 25th, 2004, 04:19 AM

BruteGorilla

April 25th, 2004, 06:34 AM

adsH

April 25th, 2004, 12:23 PM

Mr. BruteGorilla, I'd suggest you read some info from this other thread before degrading Al-Khalid against your own 'self-proclaimed' indigenous MBTs: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14310#14310 Hope that is enough for a reality check. :smokingc:

I don't know what you want to tell me. Be specific.

brute mate i am sure the Pakistani tank was made by the Ukrainains and the chinese and pakistani engineers were only there to learn but is'nt this how EF2000 was made in a consortium and JSF all the best ech here in england is shared amongst allies like the US.

dabrownguy

May 16th, 2004, 12:01 AM

http://orbat.com/site/jawan/april2004/Arjun.pdf
Arjun - Mighty warrior or a mere mortal Vishal Kansagra
21 March 2004

History has been witness to many epic battles, but no battles have been so decisive as any conflict between armour. Tanks have played a major role in any war since its invention during the First World War. Since then, tanks have become an integral part of an army- its size and role notwithstanding. Same was the case during wars of '65 and '71 between India and Pakistan. Both countries were engaged in massive armour battles on the Western front. At the end of that war, the Indian army realized the limitations of their tank fleet consisting of vintage Centurions, PT-76, T-55 and other assorted tanks in the harsh desert conditions of Rajasthan. Army required a tank, which could fight well in plains of Punjab as well as desert of Rajasthan. Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) belonging to the Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) took on the job of designing this new MBT and came out with MBT-80, proof-of-concept vehicle in 1974. Three decades later the end product strongly resembles the Leopard II, thanks to inputs provided by various German firms. Many had criticized DRDO for its failure to deliver a credible tank to IA after so many
years of research. As one of the prominent writer said "DRDO has produced a lemon after all this years of research."

Since now the future of the Arjun is looking quiet promising, it would be prudent to provide the reader with details of all that went through to make the Arjun from a `lemon' to a fearsome MBT (Main Battle Tank).

History
Based on battlefield experiences, it was learnt that 105mm gun tend to lose power and accuracy at longer ranges. As these lessons were incorporated into the new MBT project, the Arjun was designed to have a 120mm rifled main gun. This gun has been indigenously developed by DRDO. One major concern was that of mobility. To rectify it, a 1,400 HP German engine was selected. As turbine engines are considered fuel-guzzlers, it was decided that Arjun would have a diesel powerplant. To enable Arjun to fire on the move, a digital fire control system (FCS) with a laser range finder was also included. One of the early 'Chetak' prototypes was unveiled to the public on Indian Republic Day, 26 January 1984. Another public rollout followed in April 1985, after which the name 'Arjun' became the official name. At the time, it was reported to have a German MTU-based 1400 HP diesel (until an indigenous one was ready), with a weight of 'about' 50 tons (act
ually 52, though the sketch concepts were around 40-45 tons) and a price tag of US $1.6 million (2 crore rupees, to total 15.5 crore for the whole project). Tank's FCS was based on the Marconi SFCS600, linked to a Barr & Stroud Tank Laser Sight and IR8 Thermal Imager. Meanwhile, Arjun development costs continued to rise, from October 1980 Rs. 56.55 crores to Rs 280 crores in May 1987. In 1993 the first six prototype tanks were handed over to the 43rd Cavalry Regiment for troop trials at Rajasthan's Mahajan range. Accuracy trials from mid-1994 indicated an erratic first hit ratio that ranged from 20-80%, though this was supposedly reduced to 90% during subsequent troubleshooting. At that point, the first production, Arjuns were projected to be in service by 1995. Years of fire-power and tactical tests on the firing ranges in desert and semi-arid conditions followed, until the Indian Army considered the results 'excellent'. The Pakistani deal with the Ukraine to purchase T-80UD/T-84's announced in the fall of 1995 caused another flurry of activity in the Indian military community. At that point, the Arjun had just failed field trials in June. More were set for August and November but observers figured that the US $ 100 million programme has progressed too far to be easily terminated. On 9 January 1996 the Arjun was formally unveiled and cleared for mass production in a ceremony presided over by Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao. According to Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, the Indians consider the Arjun comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclerc. However, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Shankar Roy chowdhury pointed out that, while some of the tank's parameters needed to be 'further finetuned', they have enough confidence to plan Arjun variants; mobile assault guns ('self-propelled platforms' or self-propelled artillery), Observation
Post Vehicle and Air Defence (Gun or Missile), recovery, engineer and bridgelayers. New bridgelayers and recovery vehicles would be necessary, given the Arjun's substantial weight increase over the T-72M1 series. Most of India's roads are in the 40 ton military classification range, save for national highways' 70 ton range. The 59-ton (58.5 tons) 15th Variant could achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country of 40 kph with it's 1400 HP powerplant. The Arjun's hydropneumatic suspension can be hardened or softened, according to the terrain and the 1610 litre fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles). The 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks were supposed to be supplied t
o three armoured regiments for testing in 1996, but it wasn't until 27 August that the Defence Production and Supplies Secretary ordered them from the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (at which point, one Indian media estimate placed the project cost at US $ 112 million or 400 million Rupees). However, the Indian Defence Ministry's publicised cost for these 15 tanks was US $ 38.2 million (RI.62 billion). Delivery of the prototype lot was completed in April `97, field trials were again declared completed and series production was to start in early June '97. There were many problems to be answered one of them was that the technology transfer agreements for the imported engine, gun control system, fire-control system had most vendors (like MTU and Holland's Oldelft, which makes the LRS 5 Fire Control System) producing components in India in a phased manner. The production of 100 Arjun Mk.1 MBTs was expected to start by late 1997 (during the Ninth Defence Plan) at an estimated cost of US$ 2.8 million [Rs. 10 crores] each. A later claim by DRDO stated that it needed up to (Rs 1,800 crores) to produce 120 tanks over the next five years, with each one costing US $ 4.2 million [Rs
15 crores]. Another cost estimate figured that the Arjun will be over Rs 26 billion by 2001 for two or three regiments (124 tanks), totalling around US $5.6 million (Rs 200 million) per tank. This escalating estimate does not include the cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support for the Arjun's induction into service, which is estimated at over (Rs 5 billion). Country's progressively shrinking defence budget, coupled with the persistent technical problems, further delayed any serious Arjun serial production. In early August, 1997 General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, Army chief of staff, promised officers and soldiers of the 13th Armoured Regiment that the Arjun would enter production soon. Less than two months later, DRDO was shaken by the desertion of scores of military scientists and engineers lured to the more lucrative private sector, jeopardizing the success of the Arjun project. As of 18 September, the Indian Parliament approved a $6.9 Billion (250 billion Rupees) Five-Year Defence Budget. In this 1997-2002 budget, some 40 Billion Rupees has been allocated for the Ajeya (Indian name for T-72) rebuild programme, and another 1 Billion Rupees for the first 100 Arjuns. By early May, 1998, the US decision to impose sanctions on India could possibly have jeopardized the Arjun's further development, since some US companies were supplying elements of the main gun-sighting and fire- control systems for the Arjun tank. There was also speculation as to whether Germany would stop supplying MTU engines. Arjun Executive Board (AEB) narrowed their choices for an FCS to Thomson CSF and Elbit of Israel (which could also be used in the T-72M1 'Rhino'). The imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 to 60% in PPS. (Pre-Production Series) enhancing the costs substantially. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Summer 1997 trials, released in mid-1998, noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of the transmission fluid, probably because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded.

Teething problems
Even after crores had been spent on the project the future of Arjun looked very bleak since Army was not ready to accept Arjun until most of the problems had been sorted out. Pakistan acquired 315 T-80U from Ukraine and this was a cause of concern for Army, which needed a similar if not better MBT to counter T- 80U. They turned to T-90S from Russia, which was considered superior to T-80U. Field trials of T-90S began in 1999. At $ 3 million apiece, it was worth it. To many it looked like the last nail in Arjun's coffin. Arjun's list of problems read something like this: Arjun weighed 58 to
ns, while all the major national highways could only support weight upto 40 tons. Higher weight also meant that Arjun could not use the bridges designed to handle ~40 ton T-72M1. Old & inefficient MTU engine, which heated up frequently making Arjun unsuitable for deployment in Rajasthan. To counter overheating, a cooling pack was installed which reduced the ammo capacity & affected gun depression. Failure to develop an indigenous 1500 hp engine. Defective optics, especially commander's main sight. Problems with the FCS, which could not perform in temperatures above 42 Celsius. Poor operational mobility to due to its excessive weight and width. Problems with the commander's periscope sight, laser warning sight and muzzle reference sight. Transporting Arjun was a problem, as the 58-tonne tank protrudes 6cm beyond the permissible 3cm limit on either side of tank transporters used for India's current MBT, the T-72M1. Back from the dead if Arjun resembles something most from the mythology, its that bird which used to rise from its own ashes Phoenix.
Actually Arjun was always alive and DRDO was raring to go ahead and eliminate all the flaws that Arjun had and give a potent fighting machine to the Indian Army. They started solving all the problems one at a time. DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating thanks to Israel's help. DRDO teamed up with Israeli companies to develop a digital FCS. This FCS was extensively tested by Indian Army & duly accepted. Development of new & better optics by BEL. The MoD has allocated $3.9 million to build three transporter types to mobilise Arjun. Team Arjun has some more achievements to its credit. Some of them are listed below. Chromium lined barrel increases the barrel life & also the muzzle velocity of the shell. Arjun's armor was tested in combat like conditions and fared very well. It also withstood direct hits of APFSDS, HEAT, HESH & various RPG rounds as per the latest trials on September 2003. According to DRDO, the composite "Kanchan" armour gives Arjun a level of protection far better than other contemporary tanks. LAHAT ATGM has been test fired from Arjun. This was achieved by coating the round with rubber; the rubber coating burns off eliminating contact between the barrel and the round. As soon as the round leaves the barrel, rubber coating has burnt off. Due to this technique, rounds can be launched at higher velocities than possible with normal rifled barrels. LAHAT (Laser Homing Attack) with a range of 6km exceeds the capability of Refleks system on T-80UD/T-90S. Never before seen crew protection levels in tanks used by Indian Army. Crew protection is paramount and slight changes have been made here. The ammo storage is in the turret bustle but is modulated and separated from the crew by armor, so that if hit by RPG or top-attack ATGM, crew remains safe. Integrated GPS & BMS (Battlefield Management System). These systems have touch screen for rapid access. State-of-the-art night vision gear allowing the commander to identify targets at ranges more than 5km.
A new Active Area Defense System (AADS) from Elbit. Estimated cost of $ 4 million per piece.

Future

Rifled gun of Arjun gives it a very high accuracy coupled with the latest digital FCS. Currently Arjun can accommodate 39 main gun rounds. It is highly likely that revolving magazine like the one used by Merkava 4 will be incorporated in the later versions of Arjun. Magazine can be loaded with 10 rounds. This is considerably faster than the autoloaders used in other modern tanks, thereby Arjun will have a higher rate of fire. It is heard that India and Russia are jointly developing high-power propellant, which will generate lot more power than the one currently used. This coupled with the accuracy of main gun will give Arjun tremendous power at ranges exceeding 3km, which till now was the weakness of Russian tanks as their main guns tend to lose accuracy & power after 2.5km. Future of Arjun looks very bright. DRDO is much more confident now. The Arjun project has already given birth to several spin-offs namely the Tank Ex, Bhim 155 mm SP artillery vehicle and the Arjun BLT (Bridge- Layer-Tank). Thanks to modular construction, conversion from MBT configuration to SP Gun or BLT configuration is possible by quickly switching the turret on the chasis. Another spin-off is the Arjun turret mounted atop T-72 chasis. It is named Tank-Ex by DRDO (commonly known as Karna). Something that should be immediately apparent to the crew are the spacious fighting and driving compartments, in contrast to the T-72 Ajeya's cramped interior, although it must be noted that a crew of four is carried. The ergonomics are designed from the anthropometrical data of Indian troops. With a super charged 1500 HP engine, the tank has a high power to weight ratio at a combat weight of 58.5 tons and a low ground pressure of 0.84 kgf/cm², speed of 70 km/h on road. Arjun has really come of age & turned into a mighty warrior and is a fitting reply to all those who have criticized DRDO for nothing but "a bunch of jokers".

Aussie Digger

May 16th, 2004, 12:16 AM

Not trying to incense the pro-india lobby here, but I find it doubtful that India would decide to acquire the T-90, if the Arjun had ever reached comparable levels of capability to M1A2, Leopard 2A6 or Lerclerc. These after all were developed by advanced nations with decades of experience at building modern tanks, with Germany and USA in particular. The Arjun while no doubt a worthy effort, was still India's very first attempt at building a modern tank. If it was so good, I fail to see the need for T-90. Cheers.

Pathfinder-X

May 16th, 2004, 12:52 AM

i heard there r lots of problems wif Arjun, engines heats too fast and consume way too much fuel. gun stablizers not working too well, and overweight.
maybe indian fix those problems on the improved arjun

dabrownguy

May 16th, 2004, 01:30 AM

Pathfinder-X

May 16th, 2004, 05:10 AM

310 t-90s same number of t-80's in PA. T-90 is a quick fix on the indian side to counter t-80.

which suggest Arjun lacks capability of T-80, or suffering from technical difficulties dat prevent mass production.

mysterious

May 16th, 2004, 06:31 PM

adsH

May 16th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Soldier

May 16th, 2004, 09:58 PM

Yes, precisely!! If Arjun was comparable to the T-80 (and/or able to be mass produced), it makes little sense to have 'two' tanks (Arjun and T-90) in the Indian Army. T-90 was primarily bought to counter Pakistan's T-80U's and now Arjun is being modified and remodified with God knows how many versions to be produced to keep up with the needs of the Indian Army vis a vis Pakistan and/or China!! :cop

Trust me Guys i know what Argun is, its a pet project!! it will be paraded on national day marches as sign of INdian Defense industry for years to come nothing more.

Precisely, Someone dares to deny that trying to build Arjun must have given Indian Engineers a lot of insight to create another project which may come out to be very good? I do not know personally how good arjun is or what problems it has. Surely it has some problems this is why Army has gone for T-90's, but then it is good for a nation who is trying to make its own defence industry with the economy which is growing. I am sure they learnt a lot from this project.

yutong chen

May 16th, 2004, 10:04 PM

I'm sure Arjun is a huge improvement among other cheap Indian turrets on APCs. But comparing it to the world! Nah.

adsH

May 16th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Precisely, Someone dares to deny that trying to build Arjun must have given Indian Engineers a lot of insight to create another project which may come out to be very good? I do not know personally how good arjun is or what problems it has. Surely it has some problems this is why Army has gone for T-90's, but then it is good for a nation who is trying to make its own defence industry with the economy which is growing. I am sure they learnt a lot from this project.

Soldier that is what i am saying all this LCA and Argun might not be the Top quality Equipment but i can't imagine INdia without these Projects. INdia has to develop these further, i may call them Pet project and other can call it X projects but they will one day mean something in reality, india has no need for these article in the current climate, india has Time and Market access and enormous money to buy its slef new more suphisticated equipment for its defense. India can simply allow more time for there scientist and engineers to work on these projects.
But some sort of Effort at any level is important for a nation the size of india.

Soldier

May 17th, 2004, 02:53 AM

AdSH said: Soldier that is what i am saying all this LCA and Argun might not be the Top quality Equipment but i can't imagine INdia without these Projects. INdia has to develop these further, i may call them Pet project and other can call it X projects but they will one day mean something in reality, india has no need for these article in the current climate, india has Time and Market access and enormous money to buy its slef new more suphisticated equipment for its defense. India can simply allow more time for there scientist and engineers to work on these projects.
But some sort of Effort at any level is important for a nation the size of india.[/quote]

I agree with you 100% adSH. Yutong Chen, Asian countries like India or China are not yet developed countries and their product is cheap due to cheap manpower and material, not because of the quality. Right now if the quality is bad, it is mostly due to non-familiarity with highest level of technology which needs to be implemented. India is working and learning from its failures. At the same time, I smell superiority complex from the way you said things. Peace be upon you!

adsH

May 19th, 2004, 04:27 PM

BUt the thing that has to be further developed is Engineering Technology India has to run engineering Courses at a massive Scale like in the US or UK. And then we can expect nicer Quality equipment coming out of INdia. But to add i still think INdia has good Engineering Skills level it was sufficient enough to produce an Aston Martin Vantaage AMV8 concept Model. it was built by the DC go group of Bombay, and i must comend india on that even tho it was not designed there and it was designed by the Original chief designer of the Porsche a german born who works for AM England Now. but still the Skills is there and now India is Building a newer super cars!! Amazeing a new DC go group Super Car the Engine is Still from the Ford Group!!!!

Soldier

May 20th, 2004, 02:49 AM

adSH, I guess you are referring to Dilip Chabria of Mumbai. Man, he is a designer of cars who does the custom work himself and brings out nice curves out of the plain raw stock shape. His work is commendable and I commend him for using foreign engines as they are far much better and suited to his revolutionary designs. Perhaps DRDO shall hire him to make pretty looking tanks... :D :D

Soldier

July 17th, 2004, 12:28 PM

Laser missile developed for ‘Arjun’ tank

NEW DELHI, PTI:
Indian defence scientists have claimed to have achieved a breakthrough by developing a beyond-visual-range missile ‘Lahat’ for the country’s indigenous main battle tank Arjun.

The laser anti-homing Lahat missile is capable of being fired from the 120mm rifle gun of the tank which now gets a capability matching the just-acquired T-90 tanks, which sport a BVR missile of over 5 to 8 km engagement capability.

DRDO officials said that Lahat is a semi-active laser homing missile, which could be fired from the main gun of the tank similar to conventional rounds.
“This would significantly enhance the fighting capability of the MBT Arjun since its maximum effective range is 6 km as compared to the 2.5 km of conventional ammunition,” officials said.

They said the missile could be fired either in a lofted trajectory against armoured fighting vehicles and in flat trajectory against helicopters.

“The fire-control system of the tank would include laser designator to project a coded-laser beam on the target. Target designation can also be done by another tank or ground laser designator,” DRDO scientists said.

The DRDO said some of the newly-developed Lahat missiles had recently been test-fired from the main gun of the MBT Arjun in field trials to confirm the missile launch parameters such as sabot separation.

Officials said the penetration capability of the missile warhead was tested and “the results conform to the requirements”.
:D: :D: :D:

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jun172004/n16.asp

yasin_khan

July 17th, 2004, 12:42 PM

I have read some where that Indians are inducting 1000 T90s MBT and only 126 Arjuns.

So it is clear that T90 is far better than Arjun.Arjun taked too many years and still it is not rolled out.

Admin: Edit. We have merged your 2 posts together.

umair

July 17th, 2004, 02:24 PM

Soldier

July 17th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Well, I never knew that Umair though the name did sounded a bit Jewish.. :D: Thanks for the correction.

lalith prasad

July 18th, 2004, 09:06 AM

a longer ranged variant of lahat is being developed with arange of 8kms against aircraft and tanks.

Deltared075

July 19th, 2004, 09:50 AM

If 8km, you don't need lahat anymore! just use artilery!

Salman78

July 22nd, 2004, 01:45 AM

India should licence produce T-90's and incooperate some of its tech into Arjun.

Does anyone know for sure if Arjun has blast fragmentation armor ? and what type of armor is this KANCHAN one ?

XEROX

July 27th, 2004, 04:30 PM

Rumours are rife on many defence forums regarding Arjun Mark 2, does anyone have specification of this future MBT

ahussains

July 27th, 2004, 05:18 PM

IT better for Indians stop this project and if they need some tank building tips Pakistan can give them .. but First they have to put there Mess (Arjun) in the Arabian SEA..
. :smokingc:

santpaul

July 28th, 2004, 06:46 PM

yeah aleast India doesn't go begging China for every little project :smokingc:

srirangan

July 29th, 2004, 12:43 AM

Are we talking abut Arjum or Arjun MBT-2 ?

santpaul

July 29th, 2004, 02:00 AM

arjun I think

srirangan

July 29th, 2004, 02:16 AM

If you're talkin about Arjun I then you're wasting your time.. That was a falure in desert conditions, watch out for Arjun II which is said to be kick ass.

Oqaab

July 29th, 2004, 10:17 AM

Arjun II ??

Hmmm, this proves that Arjun was a failure and Indian army isnt interested in this tank.

Anyways, a failure is actually, one step ahead towards success.

srirangan

July 29th, 2004, 10:26 AM

Yes the IA has admitted that although the Arjun-I was very good in the plains, it failed in the desert conditions. Vis-a-Vis Pakistan the main tank battles would always occur in the great Thar desert.

The Arjun-II is kick ass though, if you want I ccan post some more details about it.

XEROX

July 29th, 2004, 10:36 AM

Yeah, sri post some info on this tank

and btw i heard there was extensive israeli co-op for this project

srirangan

July 29th, 2004, 10:49 AM

I have the links bookmarked in my office PC. I'll post them first thing tommorrow morning. :-)

Srilankan

July 29th, 2004, 10:57 AM

mysterious

July 30th, 2004, 01:56 AM

LCA is far from being put in to serial production as of this moment. Defense industries in the West will close down? Prove your point in order to make sense!

srirangan

July 30th, 2004, 02:49 AM

There is no question about it. Arjun is the 'best' Tank in the world. After all the world's 'greatest' country has produced it which also produces the world's 'best' fighter plane, the LCA. Soon all the armaments factories in West are going to be out of business as they simply cannot compete with world's 'best', 'greatest' weopons produced by the world's 'greatest' country on earth.

cut the 'crap'.

To the Admins/Mods:
If this comment is worth deleting then so is the comment by Sri Lankan. Try not being loyal to your double standards.

Admin: Srilankan is learning. Everyone is given a chance to correct themselves. There is a point where we become less gracious - and that goes for everyone.

Oqaab

July 31st, 2004, 01:18 PM

srirangan,

Please post some info about Arjun II.

Thanx in advance.

sidharth

July 31st, 2004, 01:45 PM

hmmmmmmmm

the point is that as compared to the new slots that India have accquired from russia of T90's are better, with greater radiations fightin limit, quick reload, better air pressure maintannece and coparitively less in wieght than Arjun. Army has stopped inducting MBT Arjun long time back and now they are lookin for its new and advanced feature versions. But india is still havin certain (not much) with Arjun's. Even the army personals regard T-72 and T-90's better tank. But as compared to pakistan even MBT Arjun is comparable to their Armoured Stock. So keepin them is not a problem just that they can operate in rajisthan not in Jammu.

in the coming days DRDO will come up with a addvanced structure

RealIndian

July 31st, 2004, 01:51 PM

srirangan,

Please post some info about Arjun II.

Thanx in advance.

Here are some information:

• DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating.

• DRDO teamed up with Israeli companies to develop a digital FCS. This FCS was extensively tested by Indian Army & duly accepted.

• Problems with the commander's periscope sight, laser warning sight and muzzle reference sight solved. Development of new & better optics by BEL.

• The MoD has allocated $3.9 million to build three transporter types to move Arjun.

In addition to this Arjun achieved many goals. Some of them are listed below.

• Chromium lined barrel increases the barrel life & also the muzzle velocity of the shell.

• Arjun’s armor was tested in combat like conditions and fared very well. It also withstood direct fire of Dual Discarding APFSDS, HEAT, HESH & various RPG roundsas per the latest trials on September 2003. According to to DRDO, the composite "KANCHAN" armour gives a level of protection far better then other contemporary tanks.

• LAHAT ATGM has been test fired from Arjun. This trials were successful. This was achieved by coating the round with rubber; the rubber coating burns off elemaniting contact between the barrel and the round. As soon as the round leaves the barrel, rubber coating has burnt off. Due to this technique rounds ca be launched at higher velocities. then possible with normal rifled barrels. LAHAT (Laser Homing Attack) with a range of 6 km exceeds the capacity of Refleks system on T-90S.

Never before seen crew protection levels in tanks used by Indian Army. Crew protection is paramount and slight changes have been made here. The ammo storage is in the turret bustle but is modulated and separated from the crew by armor, so that if hit by RPG or top-attack ATGM, crew remains safe.

• Integrated GPS & BMS (Battlefield Management System). These systems have touch screen for rapid access.

• State-of-the-art night vision gear (MRI-TI) allowing the commander to identify a terget at ranges more then 5 km and sighting a target at 6+ Km.

• A new Active Area Defense System (AADS) from Elbit.

• Estimated cost of $ 4 million per piece.

Future Future of Arjun looks very bright. DRDO is more confident now. Spin-offs from Arjun project have been many. Army has extensively tested a howitzer mounted on Arjun chasis named ‘Bhim’. Another is Arjun turret mounted atop T-72 chasis. It is named Tank-Ex by DRDO (some people also call it Karna).

http://orbat.com/site/jawan/april2004/Arjun.pdf

srirangan

July 31st, 2004, 03:04 PM

The Tank-ex was publicly displayed sometime back right?

RealIndian

July 31st, 2004, 05:54 PM

The Tank-ex was publicly displayed sometime back right?

Yes. In Defexpo-04.

Oqaab

July 31st, 2004, 06:08 PM

Thanx "RealIndian".

DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating.

Arjun uses a German engine right ? Is India getting German assistance in solving engine problems ??

RealIndian

July 31st, 2004, 06:36 PM

Thanx "RealIndian".

DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating.

Arjun uses a German engine right ?

German engine replaced by Indian one (1500hp).

Is India getting German assistance in solving engine problems ??

I am doubtful about foreign help to solve the engine problem. BTW India also manufacturing T-90S. They got expertise from it.

santpaul

August 3rd, 2004, 01:11 AM

Defence Minister to hand over Arjun to Army on Aug 7
Monday, August 2 2004 20:25 Hrs (IST)

Bangalore: Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee will hand over the first batch of five Arjun, the Main Battle Tank (MBT), produced at the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi on August 7 to the Indian Army.

Chief of Army Staff General N C Vij will receive the indigenously designed and developed MBTs from the Defence Minister, a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) statement said in Bangalore today (Aug 2, 2004).

The armoured fighting vehicle MBT Arjun was designed and developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) at Avadi near Chennai and has high degree of mobility, superior firepower and excellent protection, it said.

Heavy Vehicles Factory began producing the five Arjun's in 2000 after the Army placed an indent following successful user-cum-technical trials.

The MBT is equipped with an indigenously developed 120 mm gun, besides a specially developed "KANCHAN" armour resulting in high level of protection.

The tank has a home-grown hydro-gas suspension which offers rider comfort, eliminating fatigue on extended runs.

"The special systems which include integrated fire detection and suppression system, nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) system, advanced communication system provide added capabilities to the Arjun Tank," DRDO said.

PTI

http://news.indiainfo.com/2004/08/02/0208arjun.html

mysterious

August 29th, 2004, 11:31 PM

Makes me want to giggle to every other person I meet about the so-called 'praise' articles that you guys have been posting about Arjun; now that the Indian Army is also having second thoughts after acquiring the tank. My suggestion, shut down Arjun plans and use the much needed resources elsewhere; where economical and efficient results would be produced; results that are 100% effective on the battle-field and dont become mere 'scare-crows' for the enemy. ;)

Pathfinder-X

August 29th, 2004, 11:53 PM

Just to show you how confusing the Indian media is, I'm going to show two news articles about Arjun that completely contradicts each other.

From Outlookindia.com, written by Indian reporter
Link: http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=240827

Arjun tanks roll out
CHENNAI, AUG 7 (PTI)
The first batch of five indigenously built 'Arjun' Main Battle Tanks formally rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory at suburban Avadi today.

Describing the event as a red letter day, Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said on the occasion that "India should be equally vigilant and determined not to secede even one millimetre of her land to anyone though she had no territorial ambitions.

India was not keen on annexing any territory or expanding her own territory, he said.

Chief of Army Staff Gen N.C.Vij said India was keen to have lesser dependence on import of tools of warfare.

Mukherjee said despite the fact that there was "major improvement" in the international environment, "at the same time it is a hard fact that peace is still elusive".

"Today, by rolling out these tanks, we are able to demonstrate to the entire world our capabilities in the areas of science and technology, management and our defence preparedness", he said.

The minister, who also released a souvenir to mark the roll out, said the private business sector and industrial houses have a major role to play in the defence preparedness, as everything cannot be done by the government from its meagre budgetary support.

"We have limited resources and that has to be complemented by the private sector which has to show interest and share its responsibility to the nation," he said.

The Minister of state for defence, B K Handique, said many sub-assemblies in the Arjun tank had to be imported now.

Since the country possessed enough expertise, it should be possible to bring down the dependence on imports to the minimum "as early as possible" and organisations such as DRDO and Ordnance Factories, which developed the Arjun tank, should take the initiative in this regard.

Chief of Army Staff Gen N C Vij described the rolling out function as a 'red letter day' for the country.

Pointing out that battle tanks were "complex tools in wars", Vij said these indigenously built tanks must withstand the rigours of combat conditions and prove their combat worthiness.

Arjun tanks were far superior to other battle tanks in the world, he claimed.

Dr V K Aatre, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister, said by the year 2007, the DRDO would complete 50 years of its existence. Since technology was fast changing, "we must look as to how we can upgrade our technology".

Dr M Natarajan, who presented a profile of Arjun tanks, said the present 50 per cent indigenisation should be taken to 85 per cent as the number of tanks produced went up in the coming years. The army had placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks, which would be supplied before the end of 2007.

Director General of Ordnance Factories P K Misra said the rolling out of Arjun tanks was yet another milestone in India's history of achieving the national goal of self-reliance in defence.

Fifteen Ordnance factories in the country were associated with the manufacture of 'Arjun,' he said.

Arjun rolled out exactly seven months after the first T-90 S tank 'Bhishma' was dedicated to the nation.

Ten more tanks in the 'Arjun' class were at various stages of production and they would be delivered to the Army before this year end.

The tank has been designed and developed by the scientists and technologists of the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment, Avadi, under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

It has high degree of mobility, superior firepower and excellent protection with accurate and faster target acquisition capability during day and night in all types of weather conditions.

The indigenously developed 120 mm gun with its high velocity ammunition can defeat any contemporary armour used in tanks.

Special features like integrated fire detection and suppression system, nuclear, biological and chemical system, state-of-the-art communication system provided added capabilities to the Arjun tank.

From Defencenews.com, also written by Indian reporter.
Link: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3131494&C=asiapac

After 30-Year Wait, India Rejects Arjun for Combat
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

After waiting 30 years for its indigenously designed Arjun main battle tank, the Indian Army has decided the tank is too heavy for combat.

“It has been decided to use the Arjun main battle tank only for training purposes and not for combat purposes,” said a senior Indian Army official. He added that the Arjun’s weight makes the tank difficult to transport and inhibits maneuverability.

Quote:
The Arjun order also has been trimmed from 124 to 80 since it will be used only for training, said the Army official. The first batch of five Arjuns were delivered Aug. 7 to the Army by the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Chennai.

Another Army official said the 58.5-ton Arjun tank is much heavier and wider than the 46.5-ton Russian T-90 tank, which limits its operational mobility.

Problems plagued the Arjun from its inception in 1974 by India’s state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation. The first prototype was conceived in 1984, but the Army found a variety of problems involving its weight, engine overheating and armor protection. Arjun was planned to be ready in 1990 and mass produced by 1997.

Following delays, the Indian government struck a memorandum of understanding with Russia in 2000 to procure 310 T-90 tanks. Under the deal, 180 tanks are to be produced under licensed production at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, and the remaining 130 will be provided to India either fully or partially built, and final assembly would be done in India.

An official of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board, which controls the Avadi factory, said production priorities at Avadi have been shifted, leaving only one assembly line to build Arjuns, while the other two will produce T-90 tanks and upgrade T-72 tanks.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official would not confirm the Arjun order had been reduced, and claimed that the tank’s problems have been fixed.

The official acknowledged, however, there is a transportation problem because the Arjun is too large for the vehicles already used to transport the T-72 and T-90. Special transport vehicles have been ordered to move the Arjuns, he said.

The Arjuns will cost about $5 million apiece, sources said, which is higher than the T-90 tank because the cost of imported components in the tank have increased from 27 percent to 60 percent.

Early this year, an Israeli Lahat anti-tank missile was mounted on an Arjun tank. The Arjun has a 120mm gun, a 7.22mm machine gun for ground operations and a 12.7mm machine gun for the anti-aircraft role.

The 120mm gun has been procured from France’s GIAT Industries, the engine from MTU and the transmission system from Renk, both of Germany, and the fire control system from Oldelft Instruments of the Netherlands.

Who has the correct info? I'll let you decide.

dabrownguy

August 30th, 2004, 12:29 AM

The gun isn't made in Gait and why are their no names?
7.22 mm gun? is he joking?
I think the reporters going through gossip at the best. :roll

ullu

August 30th, 2004, 12:36 AM

:eek

i would believe defensenews over any india newspaper. Vivek has been with defensenews since long time, obviously he is good thats why.

looks like india better shop for another MBT since this is going going gone! ;)

kakarat

September 24th, 2004, 11:49 AM

any good video of arjun

redsoulja

October 15th, 2004, 11:23 PM

personally india will nto make its own satisfactory tank until a few decades into teh future
??? Arjun 5???
by then tanks will be extinct???
times achangin

mysterious

October 16th, 2004, 03:22 AM

Not really! Althought the use of tanks has shrunk somewhat but saying that they would be 'extinct' is a bit of an exaggerated piece of imagination. They certainly are going to be around for a long time to come. :smokingc:

dabrownguy

October 16th, 2004, 05:54 PM

Pak says our tanks better, India wants to test

Arjun will be tested against T-90 in Rajasthan desert this month

SHIV AROOR

Posted online: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at 0243 hours IST

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 12: The Indian Defence establishment may not like to admit it but Pakistan President Musharraf’s claim that their indigenous Al Khalid main battle tank is superior to the DRDO’s Arjun tank has prompted Army headquarters to review the latter’s capabilities.

The Army top brass have directed the Armoured Corps to compare the Arjun with the Russian-made T-90, through extensive trials beginning this month in the Mahajan ranges of Rajasthan.

According to South Block sources, the five Arjun production-series tanks, handed over by the DRDO in August, will be tested against the T-90s before any decision is taken on inducting more indigenous tanks.

Apart from these five Arjuns, the 43rd Armoured Regiment had been given 14 Arjuns in the past decade, but these were from the pre-production series.

While the DRDO continues to stress on technical parameters like ‘‘specific ground pressure’’ to showcase Arjun, the Army knows that Musharraf may be right as the power-to-weight ratio of Al Khalid is better than the Indian tank.

The Army brass admit that though the Arjun has an excellent armour, a South African gun, an Israeli fire-control system and space, its bulk is still a hurdle. At 56 tons, the Arjun is 13 tons heavier than the Al Khalid, which is a joint effort of the Chinese-Pakistan-Ukrainian industries. Arjun has a 1500 horse-power engine against the Ukranian 1200 horse-power engine in Khalid, but the former churns out 24 hp per ton as compared to the latter’s 26 hp per ton.

It is this power-to-weight ratio — a direct function of the tank’s agility and mobility — that can be a matter of life and death during a war. Besides, at Rs 16 crore a piece, the Arjun is costlier than the Khalid.

While the Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence declined comment, defence analyst K Subrahmanyam said the Arjun was begun with a ‘‘wrong philosophy, just like every other DRDO project of that period.’’

Speaking to The Indian Express, the former Secretary of Defence Production said: ‘‘The DRDO chose not to collaborate with the Russians. It understated the cost of development and this led to time and cost overruns. I knew the Arjun was nowhere close to being operational.’’ However, Arjun has a votary in the former Army chief and Rajya Sabha MP, General Shankar Roy Choudhary. ‘‘I pressed strongly to get Arjun MBT productionalised and put into service while I was in service. But I was also very critical about the delays.’’

‘‘The Arjun project is a case history in bad project management. I still maintain that Arjun, even if it is more costly, will in the long run improve the industrialisation in the country.’’ But at Army Headquarters, they are taking no chances. It is already clear that the missile-firing T-90, not the Arjun, will be India’s main battle tank.

Due to shortage of attack helicopters, the Army has to rely on tanks in case hostilities break out. The Army has also instructed the DRDO to speed up production of Arjun tanks rather than handing them over in piece-meal basis.

But before placing its next order, it will wait for the result of the Arjun versus T-90 tests this winter.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=56882
agian stupid reporting. I don't know what to believe. The gun now is South African and the weight is 56 tons? Thats the weight of Bhim. This would be quite interesting and the results would be probabily one sided either Arjun wins by a long run or the T-90. But in either case what ever tank the IA dicides to get will be the best tank in South Asia for a long time. I'd like to see DRDO through Isreali tank crew in the Arjun and Indian tan crew in the T-90. The Isrealis would use the Lahat missile and long range to the fullest.

redsoulja

October 16th, 2004, 07:23 PM

gf0012-aust

October 16th, 2004, 09:16 PM

yeah myst i sorta used the worngword "extinct"
but they are evolving so fast u ant call tehm tanks anymore
theyre are "descendents" of tanks
the new "descendents" are lighter, faster and more sophisticated
yeah they will be around for a while if u r talking about the "descendents"
and heavy tanks are going to be "nearly" "extinct"
they seem to have fewer uses than they used to have
heavy tanks were good for europena battlefield
but europe aint really a battlefield any more
im not saying heavy tanks cant be used im saying their role have been getting more and more limited

There have been 5 major tank battles. The last 3 were decisively won by larger tanks. On pure tank on tank battles, the 65 tonners absolutely dominated the battlefield - exclusive of other combined responses.

Did you notice that tank battles conducted since 1967 on were all not in european scenarios, and that the last main european battle was Hurtgen Forest in WW2. Outside of Europe it was Kursk, and the dominating tank was an evolutionary step which at the times was regarded as "heavy" when compared to its OPFOR contemporaries.

If you think that the days of the heavy tank are numbered, you seem to have ignored all of the main tank developments in the last few years. Even the Russians are building heavier MBT's - although on issues of mass I would regard them as medium weight MBT's when considered against a Merkava 4, leclerc, Chally 2, Leo A6, Mia2 etc....

The doom and gloom merchants who have periodically written off the tank in previous decades all discovered that the platform was developed to the next stage of survivability. It still gets down to doctrine. Inapprop doctrine use (like the use of helos in an unconventional or inapprop manner) will see them getting killed. The outcome is kind of self evident under those scenarios.

redsoulja

October 16th, 2004, 09:29 PM

gf0012-aust

October 16th, 2004, 09:41 PM

but heavy tanks arent that easy and cheap to transport
they also dont have the mobility that most commanders want in todays wars
speed is becoming more important,
and the chance of a pure tank war occuring now or inteh future is diminishing

I'd have to disagree here. Both the Gulf War and Iraq were the fastest tank battles in history. The M1's closed in on Bagdhad and RG armour faster than anything thats been conducted to date. This was on their own power - not on transporters.

The issue includes one of logistics. More to the point what military power has logistical equivalency to the US military - answer: No one. Thats why there is a disconnect on why some powers see a decline in their force projection footprint when compared to others. It's got little to do with the MBT, but more to do with projection capability and force structure. How much more mobile is any platform over a high speed MBT like the M1a2??

Everyone thought that a Kursk confrontation was unlikely after WW2, and then we witnessed Israel - Syria in 67, Israel in 82, Gulf War in 1999 and Iraq 2001-2003. Every major armoured power is increasing development of their MBT's - organic heavy armour is still critical to warfighting. Try arguing against it with an infantry officer on a "sieze and hold" and you'll find that the argument hasn't changed.

armage

October 17th, 2004, 11:41 AM

:? What kind of armor does the Arjun have?

redsoulja

October 17th, 2004, 06:47 PM

gf0012-aust

October 17th, 2004, 08:49 PM

gary i found asite thathas soem arguementsfor why the tank might eb extinct

http://www.checkpoint-online.ch/CheckPoint/J4/J4-0001-UKWarOverTanks.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86789,00.html

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/1997/4fcs97.$$$$$$$

http://www.usarpac.army.mil/news/xform/honadvertiser_030104b.asp

http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent/?file=PMlav

I think you'll find that invariably these articles are predicated around the fact that existing platforms are being challenged in the normal tankers scenario - this has happened ever since the germans designed a round to punture an armoured skin - everyone thought that tanks were the next dinosaur. It's happened with the AT round, rocket launched shaped charges, tank destroyers, wire guided ATM,s Helo's tasked for AT roles, Fixed wing artillery (like the Thunderbolt), super guns (like the 88) etc...., pop up helo killer teams, top down munitions, MLRS etc....

In all cases except for top down ATM's there has been an evolutionary response and the tank survives through a design iteration. I'm not saying that we will never see the tank as a dominant battlefield unit again, but it sure isn't a dinosaur yet.

Tanks are already being designed around electronic pulse weapons, that means that a full RCWS will be able to react in an anti-air and and anti skin role. Some of the electronic weapons solutions being trialled have been worked upon for some 3 years already - so in the case of 1 particular solution, I can see that it will survive against a top down attack as its response system is already faster than the incoming.

There's a way to go yet - but it's not within a generation. The platform is going to re-appear - it just won't look like a huge single main gun on a flat chassis anymore.

redsoulja

October 17th, 2004, 08:55 PM

gf0012-aust

October 17th, 2004, 09:03 PM

simply the tank is going to evolve
what happens when atank evolves far from its original purposes and technical capabilities?
it becomes something else, it isnt necessarily a tank anymore
thus tanks are now evolving into ligher faster machines
heavy taks will exist but they are not needed as much
read teh articles if u dont beleive me

and u havent addressed the 'decline of the heavy tank'

I didn't actually address some of the issues for a reason. But, as an example. If a tank is able to fire a volume of rounds at a given target in the same time with quadruple the throw weight - is it a hevaier tank? Is the heavy tank defined by platform weight or by delivery weight of ammo within a specific time frame - eg 4 seconds. (using that as the fastest initial reload time of an automatic loader before degradation - a valid real time bench mark)

Using those parameters, some of the future tanks will have the firepower of a current generation of a troop of tanks but in a physically smaller package.

The heavy MBT will be around but in a lighter platform - it doesn't need to be physically as big due to various weapons technologies - but it sure as hell will be a bigger hitter.

The tank is designed to get heavy rounds on target - nothing more, nothing less. The original tanks were like land battleships, some of them had 3-4 guns. So they have evolved beyond the original concept already - evolution being what it is, they will evolve further. eg who would have thought in 1914 that cavalry would evolve into light AFV's and medium hitting Helos?

armage

October 17th, 2004, 10:23 PM

Dont they already have tanks (on the planning broad) that will be remote controlled?

gf0012-aust

October 18th, 2004, 12:56 AM

Dont they already have tanks (on the planning broad) that will be remote controlled?

Nope. the largest RCV is truck sized and is a chassis only. It's about the size of a cement mixer.

The largest fully remote controlled tracked weapons systems I've seen is substantially smaller and is fitted with a 40mm electronic mortar system (metalstorm technology).

There are other RCV's with partial control of either the weapons system or the drivetrain/steering. But the only one with full RCV is the metalstorm tracked unit.

dabrownguy

October 23rd, 2004, 03:38 AM

While I was browseing the BR forum I cam across a post by some one claiming to be ex military. This is really a interesting read so I thought I would bring the conversation here.
Ajai Shukla

Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 11
Location: New Delhi
Posted: 06 Oct 2004 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear all,

Someone pointed me towards the Bharat Rakshak forum as one where there was much heartburn over my NDTV story on the signing of the JV between DENEL and BEML. I normally don’t respond to viewers but I’ll make an exception here.

I don’t know any of you and I’m not sure whether you even know each other, but let me start by introducing myself. I’m NDTV’s Defence Editor, an ex Colonel in the armoured corps, who retired after commanding Hodson’s Horse, a crack armoured regiment equipped with T-72s. I have been a tank man for 22 years and a graded instructor in tank automotives and electronics. I have participated extensively in the Arjun field trials.

This is not to say that I know a great deal more about armour philosophy, design, ethos, operations and tactics than anyone here ever will; all I’m saying is that you may be a bit smug and premature in assuming that every journalist is a “jackass” (MT Singha), “sensationalist” (JCage), or is engaged in “subterfuge” and “double crossing” (Raju).

Furthermore, I am in first hand touch with people in the army, many of them my course-mates and buddies, who operate the systems that you all only read and hear about. I often visit the ordnance factories where equipment is manufactured, sometimes attend the trials of key platforms and in any case keep myself informed by chatting to those who are involved in trials. My views on equipment are shaped by how the equipment is shaping up, not by notions of patriotism.

For those who like to brand as “Pakis” or “Chinese” all critics of Indian weapons procurement programmes, I would only ask: who’s anti-national? People who try to ensure that 78,000 crore rupees of Indian money buys the country robust and effective defence, or those who don’t give a damn where it is spent; everything’s fine, as long as the middlemen are making money? Like RajeevT who is “praying that this deal be passed.”

Finally, I don’t need to prove my nationalist credentials in some website chatroom. I’ve already done that in live operations for India.

Now on to the issue. Why don’t we need the DENEL-Arjun hybrid SP gun?

First: India hasn’t fought a war in thirty-three years and is unlikely to fight one again soon. What it urgently needs is not an expensive, heavy SP gun that is optimized for strike corps operations in desert terrain. Instead it needs larger numbers of towed 155mm artillery that can be used anywhere along the border, including for their most likely employment task : punitive fire assaults across the LOC. The Kargil conflict (not war, a limited skirmish involving less than two divisions is not a war) illustrated the value of dual-use, towed artillery that can support both strike corps thrusts as well as mountain division operations. So a heavy SP gun is a poor choice for India to begin with.

Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.

Third : JCage, you argued that I contradicted my own story in which some army officer “noted that the Arjun tank had cleared all trials”. Wrong. Some army guy saying it doesn’t mean that I am saying it. I have consistently argued that the Arjun tank has serious drawbacks; if you know someone in the armoured corps, ask him. The first few series production tanks handed over to the user unit have all been handed back. They all had serious problems.

Fourth : There are serious issues of strategic mobility that will dog any inter-theatre movement of the proposed SP gun. It’s not just about weight… though that will be a major problem in moving a 50-ton-plus gun across a country where many bridges are no stronger than class 40. The bigger issue is about size. The Arjun already sticks out on either side of a railway wagon which means that it cannot be taken on any line that has a platform on the side. After mating the Bhim turret, you will also have height problems, which means that the railways will have to give Over-dimension Clearance (ODC) each time the gun moves by rail.

Fifth : The DENEL gun, thanks to the single vendor situation that we have gotten ourselves into, is being sold to us at an exorbitant price. The cost of a single SP gun will be 20 crores plus. That’s a shocking price, in a country where the most modern MBT --- traditionally the most expensive platform --- comes for 9 crores. Why are we in this situation? I leave it to you.

Sixth : Your questions on artillery guns firing anti-tank rounds. Every artillery battery in the Indian army is trained to fire, with guns level, at tanks attacking their gun position. It’s called “firing through open sights”. The shell of an artillery gun has a far slower muzzle velocity than that of a tank gun (T-72, 1800 metres per second, the highest muzzle velocity in the world), but it’s considerably heavier. A 155 mm HE round ploughing into a tank at 1500 metres would send its turret flying. Even a 130 mm HE round would knock out the tank. OK, Nandai? And Singha… RAP is of no use in firing over open sights. The rocket would not kick in soon enough to make a difference to the muzzle velocity.

Seventh : Rajkatare, the Indian armed forces have a long and illustrious history of having unsuitable weaponry shoved down their throats. The Vijayanta tank is just one example. The Bofors scandal, for those old enough to have followed it, revealed that the selection can be manipulated without a problem. It was just our good fortune that it’s a great gun.

There’s more… but I shall leave it here for now. Watch NDTV; my news may not be politically correct, but at least it’ll be correct.

Best regards,

ajai

Does anyone have any comments? :smokingc: [/code]

gf0012-aust

October 23rd, 2004, 06:58 AM

I'd look at it in a different way perhaps.

Now on to the issue. Why donï¿½t we need the DENEL-Arjun hybrid SP gun?

First: India hasnï¿½t fought a war in thirty-three years and is unlikely to fight one again soon. What it urgently needs is not an expensive, heavy SP gun that is optimized for strike corps operations in desert terrain. Instead it needs larger numbers of towed 155mm artillery that can be used anywhere along the border, including for their most likely employment task : punitive fire assaults across the LOC. The Kargil conflict (not war, a limited skirmish involving less than two divisions is not a war) illustrated the value of dual-use, towed artillery that can support both strike corps thrusts as well as mountain division operations. So a heavy SP gun is a poor choice for India to begin with.

What is being contested then is appropriate doctrine. One assumes that static artillery is sited in an area where it is heavily defended from air strikes and can be relocated with relative rapidity in the event of the area of ops being threatened.

SP is used for issues of mobility. Static targets are easier to kill. Static artillery is vulnerable to MLRS responses and certainly vulnerable to airborne cavalry, anti-armour strikes. Mobile platforms have the advantage of being able to fire and move with less risk. If the fire control system is up to the mark, then shoot and scoot is not a problem.

Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.

Disagree strongly with this. There is clear documented history of US, British and Sth African SP artillery pieces having low maint rates and high availability rates. If you are building an SP as suggested, then I am not surprised that there are problems - that is a quality control, project management problem - not a platform problem per se. I would question whether he has seen a platform of the quality of the PZH 2000 for example. There is a quantum leap in quality control compared to that platform and a caesar or a K9 even.

Third : JCage, you argued that I contradicted my own story in which some army officer ï¿½noted that the Arjun tank had cleared all trialsï¿½. Wrong. Some army guy saying it doesnï¿½t mean that I am saying it. I have consistently argued that the Arjun tank has serious drawbacks; if you know someone in the armoured corps, ask him. The first few series production tanks handed over to the user unit have all been handed back. They all had serious problems.

Agree entirely

Fourth : There are serious issues of strategic mobility that will dog any inter-theatre movement of the proposed SP gun. Itï¿½s not just about weightï¿½ though that will be a major problem in moving a 50-ton-plus gun across a country where many bridges are no stronger than class 40. The bigger issue is about size. The Arjun already sticks out on either side of a railway wagon which means that it cannot be taken on any line that has a platform on the side. After mating the Bhim turret, you will also have height problems, which means that the railways will have to give Over-dimension Clearance (ODC) each time the gun moves by rail.

I question this on the basis that I would assume that India (because she has looked at poarticular weapons systems) knows that there are specific bridge clearance heights and logistics to meet. The numbers are there for anyone with the right access to see. The problem here is one of logistics and not defining structural engineering restrictions etc... One would assume that India has a logisitics map for each state that details bridge, culvert and access width issues for all its heavy vehicles. These issues are the reasons as to why some countries look at Ceasar rather than a K9, PZH2000, Bhim, etc... Thats not a platform problem. Thats a planning problem being confused with a tasking issue.

Fifth : The DENEL gun, thanks to the single vendor situation that we have gotten ourselves into, is being sold to us at an exorbitant price. The cost of a single SP gun will be 20 crores plus. Thatï¿½s a shocking price, in a country where the most modern MBT --- traditionally the most expensive platform --- comes for 9 crores. Why are we in this situation? I leave it to you.

Agree completely, again this is a planning and procurement process management problem - there are better platforms where a better price could be negotiated.

Sixth : Your questions on artillery guns firing anti-tank rounds. Every artillery battery in the Indian army is trained to fire, with guns level, at tanks attacking their gun position. Itï¿½s called ï¿½firing through open sightsï¿½. The shell of an artillery gun has a far slower muzzle velocity than that of a tank gun (T-72, 1800 metres per second, the highest muzzle velocity in the world), but itï¿½s considerably heavier. A 155 mm HE round ploughing into a tank at 1500 metres would send its turret flying. Even a 130 mm HE round would knock out the tank. OK, Nandai? And Singhaï¿½ RAP is of no use in firing over open sights. The rocket would not kick in soon enough to make a difference to the muzzle velocity.

Lets assume that the tank is engaging at beyond 4km (which is an effective engagement rate for german guns) The rate of fire of the tank will be higher and more accurate than the artillery. With a decent fire control system and stabiliser, the tank master gunner in the US army can only qualify by hitting a moving 1 sqm target at 4km and with a specific number of rounds fired off as well - that is way better than what modern manually fired artillery pieces can do. If a tank is travelling in a combined arms manner, then the artillery will be neutralised by assisting forces well before the tank comes into range. The enemy of a a tank since WW1 has been artillery, the enemy of artillery has been longer more accurate counter fire, airborne cavalry or infantry response teams working as autonomous units. In contemporary terms, new types of MLRS are better at grid killing an artillery sector than attempting to place your own towed artillery in place. The issue is tactics and interpretation of doctrine.

Seventh : Rajkatare, the Indian armed forces have a long and illustrious history of having unsuitable weaponry shoved down their throats. The Vijayanta tank is just one example. The Bofors scandal, for those old enough to have followed it, revealed that the selection can be manipulated without a problem. It was just our good fortune that itï¿½s a great gun.

Having dealt with Bofors, there is more to this scandal/incident than allowed to pass consumption in the press. The Indian Army also failed some fundamental processes as well in the assessments. eg they failed to provide benchmark ammo (clients problem - not the gun manufacturer as the client must provide the baseline and persistent data off of the ammo) They also failed miserably in communications across various levels.

There are reasons as to why howitzers come in different platform types - it all gets down to the theatre of likely ops, logistics, doctrine issues and integration of that tactical skillset into combined ops.

redsoulja

October 24th, 2004, 04:30 PM

gary i found a site that talks about RC tanks
what do u derive from it?
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001testing/adams.pdf
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/1948D6915CF48BFE85256DF10074E88E?opendocument

gf0012-aust

October 24th, 2004, 10:40 PM

gary i found a site that talks about RC tanks
what do u derive from it?
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001testing/adams.$$$$$$$
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/1948D6915CF48BFE85256DF10074E88E?opendocument

ok, they aren't tanks, but they are AFV's. But they are to test the concepts onlt (CTD's)

I think there is a firm limited future for RC tanks - but it will be very much a limited role until a number of outstanding issues are addressed. Data Integrity, range, bandwidth, autonomy issues etc... will all limit to some extent what the platform can do "outright" when compared to a manned MBT. Personally I think that there are other remote controlled combined arms opportunities which will develop and grow faster than the RC tank.

redsoulja

October 25th, 2004, 07:35 PM

gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep the people al