Iraqi Air Force wants F-15 and F-16s

[Izzy1]

Middle East News Line - Arms, Defence, Strategy Newsletter Vol.4 No.20
May 7 2007

IRAQ

The Iraq Air Force has drafted requirements for advanced U.S.-origin fighter-jets.

Officials said the air force envisions the procurement of the U.S.-origin F-15 and F-16 fighters over the next few years in a process meant to restore Iraq as a regional air power. They said the acquisition of advanced U.S. combat aircraft would replace Soviet-origin platforms in the Iraqi military.

http://www.menewsline.com/defense.html

Jane's World Airforces - Iraq, 18 May 2007

Long-Term Outlook

A 2003 study undertaken by the Coalition command in Iraq - the Combined Joint Task Force-7 (CJTF-7) - envisaged that in the longer term Iraq might again deploy fully-equipped armed forces with a strength of more than 225,000 personnel, including an air force and air defence force.

The CJTF-7 study envisaged a move away from Soviet-designed aircraft to Western designs, suggesting acquisition by a future Iraqi air arm of 40 F-15 Eagle and 160 F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft, on the premise that these are modern fighting aircraft, but by no means the most advanced US aircraft being flown in the region. Pointing out that neighbouring Saudi Arabia also deploys the F-15, the study suggested that the variant most likely to be sold or leased to Iraq would be the F-15C, which is optimised for air superiority missions.

The study perceived the Iraqi Air Force of the future having a strength of 25,000 personnel, significantly less than under Saddam Hussein, when it numbered about 30,000, augmented by an air defence command organisation that had an estimated 17,000 personnel.




Interesting news, have often wondered just how long it was until the rebuilding effort moved onto fighters. Boeing and Lockheed must be rubbing their hands gleefully at having access to what in my opinion will be a very closed market. For now anyways. But are such procurements and transfers wise given the instability?

Just for reference, Iraq's current air strength as per Jane's World Airforces

Type
Seabird SB7L 360 Seeker - 2 in the observation role.
JAI SAMA CH2000 MTSA - 8 in the observation role.
Aerocomp Comp Air 7SL - 5 in the observation role.
Lockheed C-130E Hercules - 3 in the transport role.

Mil Mi-17 - 4 in the transport role.
Mil Mi-17/1 - 4 in the transport role.
PZL W3 Sokol - 2 in the communications role.
Bell UH-1 Iroquis II - 16 under order for the transport role.
Bell 206B Jet Ranger - 4 in the communications role.

[merocaine]

The Americans would have to be insane to supply the Iraqi "army" with modern weapons.
The Iraqi Airforce can request all it wants.

1/ Would they be used against Turkey in a dispute over the North of Iraq

2/ Would they be flown to Iran at the earliest opertunity.

3/ Would they be turned on a peticular community in the case of civil war

4/ Would they be used against coalition forces in country.

As long as the Americans can't answer in the negitave to those questions there wont be any sales.
Well there should'ent be anyway;)

There's know way the Iraqi's would be able to afford to finance such a deal anyway, 200 modern fighters, restoring/building/converting airfields, training 300 plus pilots, rebuilding there radar net, training ground crews..... and thats just to get started!

[Izzy1]

I have to agree, Iraq is surely no where near stable enough to warrant such kit. If the country did fall into total civil-war and split into regions run by its ethnic factions, the Kurdish in the north could potentially end up with F-15s - something I'm certain Ankara would not be very pleased about.

And as you say, is the infrastructure there to even operate such advanced kit? I know the US has spent heavily redeveloping several Iraqi airbases but a lot more is needed. Surely more sensible options if they want new aircraft are transports and helicopters to support the counter-insurgency role, at the most maybe a Super Tucano-like COIN capability. Anything else seems happhazard at best.

[swerve]

I'd guess that they'll start with secondhand aircraft, initially F-16s. Costs a lot of money to rebuild an air force from scratch, & I think Iraqs oil is flowing too slowly to enable it to be extravagant, even with current high prices.

[T-95]

The Americans would have to be insane to supply the Iraqi "army" with modern weapons.
The Iraqi Airforce can request all it wants.

1/ Would they be used against Turkey in a dispute over the North of Iraq

2/ Would they be flown to Iran at the earliest opertunity.

3/ Would they be turned on a peticular community in the case of civil war

4/ Would they be used against coalition forces in country.

As long as the Americans can't answer in the negitave to those questions there wont be any sales.
Well there should'ent be anyway;)

There's know way the Iraqi's would be able to afford to finance such a deal anyway, 200 modern fighters, restoring/building/converting airfields, training 300 plus pilots, rebuilding there radar net, training ground crews..... and thats just to get started!

The current Iraqi leader ship is waaayyy to close to Iran for them to have those kinds of fighters. Is there any commonality between the F-15 and F-14 because if so then this would surely be a great place for the Iranians to buy spare parts to put their 79 F-14's back in service. Not to mention the possibility of Iraqi pilots defecting F-15's and F-16's to Shi'ite Iran.

[SABRE]

The current Iraqi leader ship is waaayyy to close to Iran for them to have those kinds of fighters. Is there any commonality between the F-15 and F-14 because if so then this would surely be a great place for the Iranians to buy spare parts to put their 79 F-14's back in service. Not to mention the possibility of Iraqi pilots defecting F-15's and F-16's to Shi'ite Iran.

I dont think F-15 spares would go withF-14 & only 26 or so F-14s are operational in IRIAF. Even if the pilots defect to Iran, what would Iranians do? They wont have weapon systems & wont get spare parts. By the time they rip off the the fighters, study them & make something out of them, the F-15 & F-16s would be obselete & will be no more importent than MiG-21, F-4 & F-5 (I suppose).

[T-95]

I dont think F-15 spares would go would F-14 & only 26 or so F-14s are operation in IRIAF. Even if the pilots defect to Iran, what would Iranians do? They wont have weapon systems & wont get spare parts. By the time they rip off the the fighters, study them & make something out of them, the F-15 & F-16s would be obselete & will be no more importent than MiG-21, F-4 & F-5 (I suppose).

They could easily steal the parts from the Iraqis because sooo many of them are loyal to Iran as demonstrated by the current situation in Iraq as well as Saddam's execution.

[SABRE]

They could easily steal the parts from the Iraqis because sooo many of them are loyal to Iran as demonstrated by the current situation in Iraq as well as Saddam's execution.

Its not that easy. US would stop the supply to Iraq itself. In the 1st place I dont think US would sell Iraq such aggressive weapons right now.

[LancerMc]

I completely agree, there is no way the USAF or it's allies will give the Iraqi AF anything like F-15 or F-16s. If Iraqi were to stabilize in the next few years, and when US forces left the country eventually Iraq may and I stress may get high performance jet aircraft.

With the the current situation in Iraq the military needs transports, helicopters, and observation aircraft for the foreseeable future. That's what exactly the U.S. is supplying their military currently with.

I wouldn't doubt some individual wrote down some memo saying if the Iraq AF could get combat aircraft, that the F-15 & 16 is what they would want. I could understand their want for such aircraft if the country was at peace. With Iran's new stance on being the dominate power in the Middle East, certain people are probably planning for the future of the country.

With the threat of civil war quite apparent, the US will not supply any heavy combat aircraft to the government for sometime until there are genuine progress in sectarian violence in Iraq.

[swerve]

... Is there any commonality between the F-15 and F-14 ....?

None at all.

[radiosilence]

Any deal valued at $50 million or more would require congressional approval which will be almost impossible.

[Izzy1]

I'm sure your right, but aren't we missing the point here?

This is not a plan devised by the Iraqis - the "Iraqi Air Force" is run by the United States. Thus it seems to me someone, somewhere in the Pentagon has come up with this plan and has reason to fancy their chances at pulling this off. I honestly hope I'm wrong, providing Baghdad with F-15 or F-16s is just madness given the current state-of-affairs.

As stated earlier, transports and helicopters are what is needed, not fast jets.

[merocaine]

This is not a plan devised by the Iraqis - the "Iraqi Air Force" is run by the United States. Thus it seems to me someone, somewhere in the Pentagon has come up with this plan and has reason to fancy their chances at pulling this off.

Good point, but this press release seems to be backing up its case with a report drafted in 2003, back when the Americans still thought that Iraq would make a usefull counter weight to Iran!
It looks like someone is chancing there arm here, my best guess is its a stalking horse, theres no chance of fast jets, but this might nudge the pentagon into looking at the airforce again.

[radiosilence]

I'm sure your right, but aren't we missing the point here?

This is not a plan devised by the Iraqis - the "Iraqi Air Force" is run by the United States. Thus it seems to me someone, somewhere in the Pentagon has come up with this plan and has reason to fancy their chances at pulling this off. I honestly hope I'm wrong, providing Baghdad with F-15 or F-16s is just madness given the current state-of-affairs.

.

I don't doubt that the idea of providing the Iraqi Air force with F16s and F15s might have been planned by some in the Pentagon however such big ticket items have no chance of being cleared by the Congress. Iraq is in Shambles and adding high tech fighters is like pour gasoline to the fire.

[T-95]

So dose this mean that Iraq may never get planes? Because right now it seems like the Americans want to leave and if that happens then the insurgency would be everywhere so it doesn't look like Iraq will ever stabilize, unless there is a pan-Arab peace keeping force deployed there after the Americans leave.

So much for an Iraqi Air Force.:(

[Izzy1]

So dose this mean that Iraq may never get planes?

As Iraq stands, stability wise, I honestly hope not.

unless there is a pan-Arab peace keeping force deployed there after the Americans leave.


Could the Arabs honestly do that in Iraq? Anything Sunni Saudi, Egypt or the rest put in will be met by Iran. Even if we could meet the obligation and demand.

[T-95]

As Iraq stands, stability wise, I honestly hope not.



Could the Arabs honestly do that in Iraq?

As i stated in your "Baxrain" thread the only forces that are capable of that are Egypt , SA and Iran but only if they all cooperate. Egypt could deploy 350,000 troops SA can deploy 75,000 and Iran can deploy 350,000. Egypt and SA have AF's big enough to deploy over 100 aircraft there to defend air space and have close air support. With existing security forces there should be nearly a million man army fighting insurgency which would dramatically quell after the Iranian deployment and support for the peacekeeping mission. Jordan could also play a small part as well.

[Izzy1]

That's a different thread Chief, but thanks.


In all honesty, they are very flattering numbers - who defends us in the meantime?!!

We could be there for 10+ years and the Shia and Kurds could still seperate, no?

Dare I propose another solution... Get in there now, whilst the US is there? Resolve the situation whilst still controllable and maybe build a democratic Shia powerbloc against Iran?

[T-95]

That's a different thread Chief, but thanks.


In all honesty, they are very flattering numbers - who defends us in the meantime?!!

We could be there for 10+ years and the Shia and Kurds could still seperate, no?

Dare I propose another solution... Get in there now, whilst the US is there? Resolve the situation whilst still controllable and maybe build a democratic Shia powerbloc against Iran?

Yes how would that look?! The Egyptian gov't is facing a lot of backlash right now from the population for letting the US Navy through the canal. The only time they can do that with out committing political suicide is after the Americans leave so they can say their helping Iraq and cleaning up the mess the Americans made which would make the presidents and kings of those countries look like absolute heroes.

[falcon2k7]

We learned our lesson about selling high tech military goods to others back with Iran. So there are a few safeguards in place now to make sure such weapons could not be turned around and used against us.

That being said, Iraq is a LONG way from having to worry about an Air Force. They got a lot more pressing matters. Still, if they want F-15's, better hurry because I think the production line is about to come to halt one of these days soon. (2007 or 2008). After Singapore, there hasn't been any other large foreign orders as the F-35 is on the horizon.

[contedicavour]

Iraq is operating some helicopters and transport aircraft (C130s if I recall correctly). They probably need even more helos to make their forces more mobile in the more rural areas.
In a few years the US will eventually reduce their strength in Iraq and then the country will need some COIN / light bombardment / recce aircrafts of their own. That's why I would see aircrafts such as SU25, MB339, AC130s, and armed Pilatus, etc.
However more powerful fighters won't be needed in years since control of the airspace will probably be the last thing the US will relinquish before quitting Iraq entirely in several years' time.

cheers

[vivtho]

Iraq is operating some helicopters and transport aircraft (C130s if I recall correctly). They probably need even more helos to make their forces more mobile in the more rural areas.
In a few years the US will eventually reduce their strength in Iraq and then the country will need some COIN / light bombardment / recce aircrafts of their own. That's why I would see aircrafts such as SU25, MB339, AC130s, and armed Pilatus, etc.
However more powerful fighters won't be needed in years since control of the airspace will probably be the last thing the US will relinquish before quitting Iraq entirely in several years' time.

cheers

I agree with this. A fleet of 200 modern jets is just a pipe dream. Even with the oil revenues, there is no way Iraq can pay for such a fleet. With the cheapest F-16C/Ds going for $47 million (sold to Taiwan in 2006) and F-15s for $80 million (sold to Singapore in 2005) such a fleet would cost 10.7 billion USD. The current need for the Iraqi AF (assuming the US pulls out immediately) is for light counter-insurgency and attack aircraft.

However, rather than selling new aircraft, I expect the US to donate some older F-16s from USAF stocks to Iraq before (if ever) they pull out.

[contedicavour]

The most useful assets USAF/USMC could hand over to Iraq would be IMHO the A-10, heavily armed versions of AH-1 Cobra, and earlier versions of the AC-130, and a lot of transport aircrafts (those that will be replaced by the C27J) and helos (old UH-1). Germany and France could hand over some Alphajets, and Italy some MB339s => all having in common good 30mm cannons that can really help in COIN missions.
In a few years eventually a couple of squadrons with 40-50 F16 ADF ex ANG would be enough to cover the airspace. But these would be useless against insurgents, so clearly carry a very low priority.

cheers

[USNavySEAL3310]

The U.S. Government would never let Iraq get the contract from Boeing/Lockheed/etc, nor would it willingly 'donate' the hardware over. As long as Iraq is as unstable as it is now, they won't be seeing any new hardware (certainly not air/naval equipment) for years to come. Loyalties shift easily over there.

I don't doubt this will become a political question in the near future: Should Americans supply the Iraq government with advanced hardware to sustain itself.

[vivtho]

The most useful assets USAF/USMC could hand over to Iraq would be IMHO the A-10, heavily armed versions of AH-1 Cobra, and earlier versions of the AC-130, and a lot of transport aircrafts (those that will be replaced by the C27J) and helos (old UH-1). Germany and France could hand over some Alphajets, and Italy some MB339s => all having in common good 30mm cannons that can really help in COIN missions.
In a few years eventually a couple of squadrons with 40-50 F16 ADF ex ANG would be enough to cover the airspace. But these would be useless against insurgents, so clearly carry a very low priority.

cheers

I doubt that the USAF will let go of any of it's stock of A-10s. It has found it a useful aircraft and there is no successor to it in the near future. I do agree that ex-ANG F-16s would most likely be donated.

[T-95]

I doubt that the USAF will let go of any of it's stock of A-10s. It has found it a useful aircraft and there is no successor to it in the near future. I do agree that ex-ANG F-16s would most likely be donated.

Isn't the A-10 a USAF exclusive??? I'm surprised no one asked to buy it. It's a hell of a plane!

[AegisFC]

It is a hell of a plane alright, but most countries would rather have a more multi-role plane instead.

[KevinB]

The U.S. Government would never let Iraq get the contract from Boeing/Lockheed/etc, nor would it willingly 'donate' the hardware over. As long as Iraq is as unstable as it is now, they won't be seeing any new hardware (certainly not air/naval equipment) for years to come. Loyalties shift easily over there.

I don't doubt this will become a political question in the near future: Should Americans supply the Iraq government with advanced hardware to sustain itself.

To answer your question, no. Any weapons sent to the "Iraqi Army" will either be used to commit genocide against Sunni Arabs and/or Kurds and/or will be turned over to the lunatics in Tehran.

[contedicavour]

To answer your question, no. Any weapons sent to the "Iraqi Army" will either be used to commit genocide against Sunni Arabs and/or Kurds and/or will be turned over to the lunatics in Tehran.

It's true there are huge risks involved, but if you don't start equipping those folks decently you can't expect them to replace eventually the US soldiers and marines...
Besides, the Iraqi army is the only asset we have to pacify the place and is a more trustable and unitary then the police (which is in thrall to sectarian militia leaders).
I'm not saying they should receive MBTs or recent F16/15s but firepower needs to be increased. Hence my point about COIN and armed helos.

cheers

[Waylander]

They already have MBTs. T-72s from former WarPac countries and possible from Jordan.

[eckherl]

They already have MBTs. T-72s from former WarPac countries and possible from Jordan.

Jordan has T-72s, I thought they have been quite fond of British main battle tanks.:D

[contedicavour]

They already have MBTs. T-72s from former WarPac countries and possible from Jordan.

They also had a lot ex USSR T55,62,72 but that was before the war. How many are expected to be still operational nowadays ? It would be interesting to see how the Iraqi army uses them. They should be the mainstay of heavy convoys in areas where the insurgents are very active.

cheers

[eckherl]

The hardware that Jordan has donated to Iraq at the present time is helicopters and BTR94s, maybe some cargo aircraft also.

[KevinB]

They also had a lot ex USSR T55,62,72 but that was before the war. How many are expected to be still operational nowadays ? It would be interesting to see how the Iraqi army uses them. They should be the mainstay of heavy convoys in areas where the insurgents are very active.

cheers

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the old Soviet tanks fell into the hands of the Kurds after the war.

[swerve]

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the old Soviet tanks fell into the hands of the Kurds after the war.

Many appear to have been spirited across the border to Iran, where they've been turned into scrap & fed into steel mills. Some are in service with the new Iraqi army. From what I've heard from US soldiers in Iraq, some are sitting around rusting.

[eckherl]

Many appear to have been spirited across the border to Iran, where they've been turned into scrap & fed into steel mills. Some are in service with the new Iraqi army. From what I've heard from US soldiers in Iraq, some are sitting around rusting.

Alot of it is being policed up and sold to Jordan as scrap also.

[beleg]

Turkey also melts lots of those old tanks. Some are said to be radioactive (guess why :P) posing risks to the workers who work with them. I also don't think that the US will want to hand over new planes. Even ones from old stock is highly debatable. Iraq is too instable to make huge military hardware transfers.

[kenhew7]

So dose this mean that Iraq may never get planes? Because right now it seems like the Americans want to leave and if that happens then the insurgency would be everywhere so it doesn't look like Iraq will ever stabilize, unless there is a pan-Arab peace keeping force deployed there after the Americans leave.

So much for an Iraqi Air Force.:(

i doubt so but such hi tech aircraft? i dun think Israel will stand by and watch another Arab power with such sophisticated weaponry at their backyard. furthermore if Iran and Iraq decides to teach Israel a lesson by painting those aircraft with Israeli markings, who knows what will happen then.as for pan-Arab peacekeeping force i doubt it will ever happen as it will pit Arabs against each other if something goes wrong as who? will side who? then.

[T-95]

i doubt so but such hi tech aircraft? i dun think Israel will stand by and watch another Arab power with such sophisticated weaponry at their backyard. furthermore if Iran and Iraq decides to teach Israel a lesson by painting those aircraft with Israeli markings, who knows what will happen then.as for pan-Arab peacekeeping force i doubt it will ever happen as it will pit Arabs against each other if something goes wrong as who? will side who? then.

Arabs never had these problems, only when the US came along to "secure oil interests".

[T-95]

They already have MBTs. T-72s from former WarPac countries and possible from Jordan.

Yes, they also had MiG-25's but, I'm not sure what happened to them. Did the US take them? I have never seen the Iraqi Security Forces with MBT's not even IFV's just HUMVEE's.

[Izzy1]

I have never seen the Iraqi Security Forces with MBT's not even IFV's just HUMVEE's.

They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.

[Izzy1]

i doubt so but such hi tech aircraft? i dun think Israel will stand by and watch another Arab power with such sophisticated weaponry at their backyard.

Oh please...

Why not Iraq, I agree, I hope not. But Israel has stood by already.

Inform yourself and back up such comments.

Come back to me and tell me what the Royal Saudi Air Force has in service now and what it will soon get.

Second, which Arab country currently operates the most advanced F-16 block variant?

Please.

[T-95]

Oh please...

Why not Iraq, I agree, I hope not. But Israel has stood by already.

Inform yourself and back up such comments.

Come back to me and tell me what the Royal Saudi Air Force has in service now and what it will soon get.

Second, which Arab country currently operates the most advanced F-16 block variant?

Please.

RSAF is probably the best equipped Arab air force. UAE's AF doesn't pose a threat to Israel because they're so far away. It's mainly for Iran. As for the RSAF after it gets the Typhoon it could probably achieve air-superiority over Israel,maybe, but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force and have 300+ modern war planes. It terms of equipment I think it maintains a qualitative edge over the IAF.

[eckherl]

They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.

Good post - they will also be picking up further orders of helicopters and BTR 94s from Jordon. Additional equipment is also being looked at from the Czech Republic, Poland and possibly Ukrainian hardware.

[swerve]

...As for the RSAF after it gets the Typhoon it could probably achieve air-superiority over Israel,maybe, but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force and have 300+ modern war planes. It terms of equipment I think it maintains a qualitative edge over the IAF.

But air superiority needs more than pilot skill (& flying hours isn't everything: the quality of each hour matters) & equipment. There's also command & control quality, situational awareness & how it's used, & other factors. The Israelis have proved adept at electronic warfare, for example.

[T-95]

But air superiority needs more than pilot skill (& flying hours isn't everything: the quality of each hour matters) & equipment. There's also command & control quality, situational awareness & how it's used, & other factors. The Israelis have proved adept at electronic warfare, for example.

I was saying maybe. I wouldn't say the RSAF couldn't do it and I don't think anyone can really say that. As for command and control quality and situational awareness I think the Saudis have comprehensive radar coverage over there territory and I know they have 5 E-3C AWACS planes (probably the best AWACS out there) and I believe that the Israelis ,or any ME country for that matter, have no equivalent. More over the RSAF have some of the best A2G platforms there are, the Tornado and F-15E variants (F-15S). They also have way more air-superiority version of the F-15 than Israel has and I don't think the Israeli F-16C can shoot down an F-15C unless in WVR combat.

[vivtho]

Isn't the A-10 a USAF exclusive??? I'm surprised no one asked to buy it. It's a hell of a plane!

The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.

[Izzy1]

The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.

I believe the Jordanians came very close also to buying second-hand A-10s from the USAF, however the deal attracted intense and ultimately successful pressure from the Israel-lobby and the proposed sale was cancelled. Jordan, which has always suffered problems achieving tank-parity with Israel, regarded the A-10 as the perfect solution.

but i think they get more flight time than the Israeli air force

I keep saying this here - yes, RSAF does achieve plenty of flying hours, the F-15 squadrons especially. But they don't do much productive flight training for those hours. Large-scale exercises are too few and rarely of any meaningful quality. Multi-squadron operations are unheard of, as is close air support training for ground units. Yes, the RSAF does practice plenty of ACM but very little dissimilar air combat training. Lastly co-operation with other GCC air forces can only be described as woeful - but to be fair this is changing.

Israel, Egypt and Jordan certainly in my opinion, put less hours to a lot greater use and benefit.

I think the Saudis have comprehensive radar coverage over there territory...

This is true, the 'Peace Shield' system is a state-of-the-art integrated air defence system finally developed for RSAF by ThalesRaytheon Systems. The program began in 1985, with the aim of bringing all of Saudi's fixed wing interceptors, land-based air defence and AWACS into one single networked entity backed up by a very comprhensive C3I system based in Riyadh.

Large delays were experienced introducing the system and it was only partially available for the First Gulf War. This renewed the urgency to get the system fully operational and lead-contractor Boeing was repleced in 1991 by Hughes Corporation (eventually to become ThalesRaytheon Systems). It would still take however another five years to get the system fully operational by which time 5.6 Billion US$ had been spent on the system. Prof. Kenneth Pollack describes the final product as the "The most comprehensive air defence network outside of NATO".

Given the need to provide coverage across the Gulf, along the southern borders with Yemen, across the Red Sea and protect the northen borders; five Sector Operations Centres (SOC) at Dhahran, Taif, Tabuk, Khamis Mushayt and Al Kharj feed into the network data from their respective regions.

17 x AN/FPS-117 long-range, solid-state 3D radars provide the backbone of the system. Each SOC has three AN/FPS-117 available, apart from Tabuk which has five AN/FPS-117 covering the sensitive Jordanian/Israeli/Iraqi border region.

A further 28 x AN/TPS-43 3D and 35 x AN/TPS-72 mobile tactical radars are available for short-to-medium range coverage and provide data to the Patriot SAM Batteries (numbering 20 units with 160 launchers) and the I-HAWK III SAM batteries (numbering 16 batteries with 120 launchers). A further 48 Crotale SAM systems and 16 independent-mobile acquisition units provide internal coverage over the vital oil production facilities in the Eastern Province. The system is also directly links the 5-strong RSAF E-3A AWACS fleet into the network.

Peace Sheid relies on a comprhensive communications network that includes HF radios, its own mobile telephone network, microwave line-of-sight radio systems, a store-and-forward message-switched network and a Kingdom-wide fibre optic grid. Links to the Royal Saudi Land Forces and the Royal Saudi Navy are also provided for. Further integration has seen the radar systems of GCC countries like Kuwait and Bahrain added to the system.

The RSAF currently has plans to further enhance the system with possible new SAM and ground-based radar acquistions, more AWACS and a new
C4I control network. Peace Shield would likely also provide the basis for any future Saudi ABM defence system.

[swerve]

...
I keep saying this here - yes, RSAF does achieve plenty of flying hours, the F-15 squadrons especially. But they don't do much productive flight training for those hours. ...
Israel, Egypt and Jordan certainly in my opinion, put less hours to a lot greater use and benefit. ....

They certainly aren't unique in that. F-16.net has lists of F-16 pilots with highest hours in various air forces, where known (the Israeli list is obviously incomplete, & others probably are). About half the top ten Venezuelan pilots are generals. Looks as if a lot of the flight hours they rack up are jollies for the top blokes, not serious training. A couple of other air forces are suspiciously top-heavy, though not quite as bad.

[contedicavour]

They have had armour for a while now.

Jane's World Armies

Iraqi Army - 2007

9th Division HQ - Taji: CO. Maj Gen Bashar Ayoub

1st Mechanised Brigade Formed 2004, initially equipped with refurbished Saddam-era T-55 MBT and various BTR-series APC.

2nd Armoured Brigade Formed 2005, equipped with T-72 MBT donated from Hungary as well as various BTR-series APC refurbished from former Saddam-era Iraqi stocks.

3rd Mechanised Brigade Under formation as of late-2006 with further ex-Saddam era MBT and APC.

This last brigade probably employs M-113 APC donated from various sources.

If eventually the US and UK forces leave, whoever controls this armoured division is likely to hold the key to power in Baghdad... sure, guerrillas can't be taken out by MBTs, but any government without support from this division is unlikely to survive long...

cheers

[Izzy1]

If eventually the US and UK forces leave, whoever controls this armoured division is likely to hold the key to power in Baghdad... sure, guerrillas can't be taken out by MBTs, but any government without support from this division is unlikely to survive long...


Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.

[Waylander]

20 Fuchs from us?
As if we wouldn't need them for ourselves... :rolleyes:

[contedicavour]

Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.

It definitively looks like the good old elite Republican Guard divisions. T72s and BMP1s. It's curious that the Shia dominated government in Baghdad isn't doing anything to have this division deployed farther away from the capital.
Just add some armed helos (old Cobras or well armed Hueys or refurbished Hind Mil 24) and this unit becomes unbeatable by other Iraqi (or even Iranian) units.

cheers

[T-95]

The only Air Force that seriously considered purchasing the A-10 was South Korea. For all the other AFs, it was simply too specialized an aircraft.

Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!

[Izzy1]

Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!

As I say Jordan deffinately wanted it but Tel Aviv protested the deal, possibly linked to what you say, the IDF wanted A-10 for itself. Formidable aircraft, I always wonder how the Su-25 would perform in similar combat environments that the A-10 has operated so far.

It definitively looks like the good old elite Republican Guard divisions. T72s and BMP1s. It's curious that the Shia dominated government in Baghdad isn't doing anything to have this division deployed farther away from the capital.

I suppose from a Shia perspective, better the 9th Division be Sunni than Kurd. Would not be surprised if this unit was tasked with rapidly moving north to Kirkuk if the situation there warranted a strong-show of force from the Government.

Good to see Jordan providing large quantities of kit and the UAE has done a considerable amount of work behind-the-scenes with regards training the new Iraqi Army. Shame a few other regional partners have not shared a similar burden - especially those neighbours who have the most to loose from an unstable Iraq.

[eckherl]

Agreed and especially relevant given that the 9th Division's base at Taji is just 12 miles north of Baghdad.

After some further reading on this unit, other equipment delivered to the Iraqi Army also includes:

BMP-1 MICVs (Saddam-era refurbs and 36 more donated by Greece)
MTLB APCs (all Saddam-era refurbs)
Spartan APC (100 donated from Jordan)
BTR-94 APC (50 donated from Jordan)
M-113A1 APC (100 donated from Jordan)
Panhard M3 (44 donated from the UAE)
Fuchs 6x6 APC (20 donated from Germany)

The 9th Division interestingly has the largest number of serving Sunni Muslims of any Iraqi Army unit and has recruited a fair number of Saddam-era Republican Guard.

Are sure about the M113s coming from Jordan, I thought they had given them to Lebanon.:)

[eckherl]

Didn't Israel also consider them?? It's getting upgrades by the way, as if it wasn't effective enough. I so wanna see one one day. Love it!

There are a number of countries out there that have shown a interest in the Warthog, the problem is that we will not sell it due to what is sticking out of the nose of it. Israel and South Korea showed a interest in purchasing them when the U.S Airforce wanted to disband them in the mid nineties but we told both of them the big NYET. The Airforce was told by the U.S Army that if they did not want to fly it any longer that they would be more than happy to take them over and train warrant officers on how to fly them for combat, we can see what happened with that.:D

As far as a comparision between a A-10 and SU25 Frogfoot.

The Frogfoot is more of a ground attack aircraft while the Warthog is a major tank buster with a secondary role of ground attack, it is that good even though it is slower than a P-51 Mustang.:)

[beleg]

A-10 were offered to Turkey during 91 Gulf War and refused by the Airforce :\

[eckherl]

A-10 were offered to Turkey during 91 Gulf War and refused by the Airforce :\

Hmm - this is the first time of me hearing this, I was told because of the gun system that we would not sell it to anyone including our allies, NATO members included, but I may be wrong.

[Waylander]

In the case of Turkey or any other ally who also uses DU-Ammo this would be no problem in my eyes.

[beleg]

Well it had hit the aviation mags in early 90s. It is said Airforce officers went to see the airframes. But there was a conflict about who should use the planes, air force or army aviation and this long debate ended with refusal of the platforms if i recall correctly.

During same period if i recall correctly there were F-15A transfer options too but that didn't materialize because the airframes were too old.

[orko_8]

Hmm - this is the first time of me hearing this, I was told because of the gun system that we would not sell it to anyone including our allies, NATO members included, but I may be wrong.

50 A-10A's were offered by US in 1994 and the sale was approved by the Congress. The aircraft were to be selected from AMARC reserves IIRC. The offer was surprisingly refused: Surprisingly, because mid 90's were the hottest times during the struggle against seperatist terrorist organization PKK in East and SouthEast Anatolia as well as Northern Iraq. Possible reasons for the refusal were:

1. Logistics plus cost to assimilate the aircraft into the squadron+operations+doctrine infrastructure
2. Army Aviation - Air Force disaggreement on which bracnh will operate the aircraft - similar to the one in USAF - US Army. AFAIK, US Army had planned to operate some A-10's.
3. Bad condition of the offered airframes.
4. Limited capability, especially inability to operate in night and adverse weather.

TuAF F-15 procurement, AFAIK, came to the agenda twice: First around 1998 when Greece announced plans to procure 40(?) F-15H's. The number was around 80 F-15E's.

The second case was during 2003, just before the OIF. During negotiations with the Turkish government for use of bases to conduct operations in Northern Iraq, USA offered Turkey a huge, repeat huge list of surplus and low-price weaponry of all scale: from LPD to HMMWV's. Among the list was at least two squadrons of F-15A/B's. There were rumors that Malatya MJB's infrastructure was modernized in order to accomodate the Eagle.

When the Turkish Parliament refused the bill for US troops' use of Turkish bases for jump point, the offer went to the garbage bin; so the plans to induct F-15A/B/C/D/E/XX.

[beleg]

Hmm.. Means i remember wrong. I was quite sure about the F-15 too though. I remember like read it in Ucanturk magazine during my late Junior high years.. Hehe since i am getting old memory malfunctions are normal :)

[eckherl]

50 A-10A's were offered by US in 1994 and the sale was approved by the Congress. The aircraft were to be selected from AMARC reserves IIRC. The offer was surprisingly refused: Surprisingly, because mid 90's were the hottest times during the struggle against seperatist terrorist organization PKK in East and SouthEast Anatolia as well as Northern Iraq. Possible reasons for the refusal were:

1. Logistics plus cost to assimilate the aircraft into the squadron+operations+doctrine infrastructure
2. Army Aviation - Air Force disaggreement on which bracnh will operate the aircraft - similar to the one in USAF - US Army. AFAIK, US Army had planned to operate some A-10's.
3. Bad condition of the offered airframes.
4. Limited capability, especially inability to operate in night and adverse weather.

TuAF F-15 procurement, AFAIK, came to the agenda twice: First around 1998 when Greece announced plans to procure 40(?) F-15H's. The number was around 80 F-15E's.

The second case was during 2003, just before the OIF. During negotiations with the Turkish government for use of bases to conduct operations in Northern Iraq, USA offered Turkey a huge, repeat huge list of surplus and low-price weaponry of all scale: from LPD to HMMWV's. Among the list was at least two squadrons of F-15A/B's. There were rumors that Malatya MJB's infrastructure was modernized in order to accomodate the Eagle.

When the Turkish Parliament refused the bill for US troops' use of Turkish bases for jump point, the offer went to the garbage bin; so the plans to induct F-15A/B/C/D/E/XX.

Good information - Thank you, to you and Beleg, sounds like we tried to give Turkey initial production air frames and no upgrades.

I remember when the U.S Army wanted the A-10 and what a scuttle that turned into. I wonder why we refused Israel, could it be that we offered it to Turkey because they are a NATO member.

[ahussains]

impossiable for the Iraqis now they lacks in many areas they didnt use and westren avionics and planes from last two dacades and above every thing US can not supply them F-15 or F16 impossiable

[BEN1]

There are a number of countries out there that have shown a interest in the Warthog, the problem is that we will not sell it due to what is sticking out of the nose of it.


The GAU-8 is used in the Dutch 30mm goalkeeper CIWS system so I doubt the US have any problems selling the A-10.

I dont think anyone realised just how effective the hog would be until ODS. I'd have thought the West Germans might have bought some. South Korea would be an ideal user, as is anyone wanting an aircraft that can kill tanks and do COIN as well

[eckherl]

The GAU-8 is used in the Dutch 30mm goalkeeper CIWS system so I doubt the US have any problems selling the A-10.

I dont think anyone realised just how effective the hog would be until ODS. I'd have thought the West Germans might have bought some. South Korea would be an ideal user, as is anyone wanting an aircraft that can kill tanks and do COIN as well

Thanks for the information.:)

[Eggy]

Thought the production line of the A10 was closed a while ago.

[eckherl]

Thought the production line of the A10 was closed a while ago.

Yes it is, after the life span of the thunderbolt 2 we most likely will not see this aircraft around any longer.