Nuclear Subs

[Jade]

Hi Guys,
Could someone pls tell me the difference between a Coastal Sub like the Scorpene Sub that France is building for India and Britains Nuclear Attack Sub the Astute ?

What other types of Subs are there in the nuclear arena ?


I hear the propulsion system for the Astute is unique - just how much ?

Any news on the India ATV ?

Thnx

[Khairul Alam]

Well, a coastal sub has a short endurance whereas a nuclear-powered sub can remain in the sea for long periods. The nuclear reactor can provide the energy for a long long submerged drive.
As for types of submarines, they are usually classified as SSKs, SSNs, and SSBNs. SSKs are diesel-electric submarines and have to surface to recharge their batteries by running their diesel engines. Coastal subs are all SSKs. SSNs are nuclear powered subs. Finally, SSBNs are nuclear powered subs that carry ballistic missiles.

[f-22fan12]

There are two types of non-nuclear submarines. First is regular old diesel-electric. The next however is new and is called AIP. Air Independent Propulsion. In this form of propulsion, energy is stored in fuel cells like the german type 212 or in other methods like on Sweden's Gotland class. The German AIP submarines are said to be some of, if not the quietiest submarines in the world. They can stay submerged for over 2 weeks. That is about the best you can get for a non-nuclear submarine. As far as the Astute, it is designed to take on long range missions. American Nuclear submarines comparable to the Astute can stay submerged for 90 days at most. The Astute can probobly do this as well. The great thing about the Astute however is that its nuclear reactor doesn't need to be refuelled for 30 years, its entire service life. Usually nuclear reactors have to be refueled once every 15 years of a 30 service life. These refuels take a long time and are very costly. The Astute class can be compared to the Virginia class subs of the U.S. Both subs carry about 38 torpedoes and missiles. The are launced from vertical launch tubes. The Virginia class however has been designed to conduct littoral operations, or operations near the coast, as well as blue water missions and power projection. The Astute however is not designed for littoral operations. The Virginia, Astute and Seawolf classes are my favorite in the world. They are the quietest and deadliest subs out there. Yet they are very expensive with the Virginia and Seawolf classes costing $2 billion per sub.

[Jade]

Thnx guys.

They say the Astute has the best sonar in the world. It can hear stuff in New York while still anchored in England !!

Don't the Russians have good sonars ?

How would you rate the Scorpene ?

How far from coastal waters could the Scorpene go ?

Thnx

[Ozzy Blizzard]

They say the Astute has the best sonar in the world. It can hear stuff in New York while still anchored in England !!

I'm affraid that one is total BS. The USN is a full generation ahead of the rest of the world in sonar capabilities. Astutes may indeed have very capable sonars but the're not going to be better than the best the USN has.

Don't the Russians have good sonars ?

The soviets allways suffered a technological deficit compared to the USN, IIRC the ASW tactics relied on active systems due to their lack of decent passive sysems. However due to the lack of funding for R&D in russia on SONAR's, both passive & active they have been stuck at 1990's level capability for the most part. So they lag behind for the most part.

[f-22fan12]

Ozzy Blizzard is certainly right. The USN is certainly the best when it comes to sonar capabilities. The Astute may not be that far behind however due to the fact that America and the U.K. are very close allies and probobly share technology.
About the Scorpene. They are coming out with a AIP version of the submarine. But the German AIP sub, the type 212, will still be better. The Scorpene is built in joint venture by a Spanish and a famous French sub builder. The AIP version will be a good submarine. I don't think it will be that good however.
How far off shore can it go? As far as the operators want, but its strength is operations in shallow waters.
The German type 212 Rules:cool:

[f-22fan12]

And yes, the Soviets were NEVER the ones with good electronics/sensors/sonar.
USN rules!:

[f-22fan12]

One last thing. The six Indian navy Scorpenes will be equipped with MESMA AIP systems.

[layer3]

How do u rate Agosta 90B with scorpenes???

[Khairul Alam]

I'm affraid that one is total BS.

I will differ on this one. In sea, sound waves can travel incredibly long distances. In his book "High-Tech Warfare", author Robert Jackson quoted an American anti-submarine warfare (ASW) specialist: "The first time the Soviets put pedal to the metal on an Alpha-class boat, the noise travelled all the way to Bermuda. The Russian submarine was in the Barents Sea at the time, 4000 miles away."

I hope he wasnt joking ;)

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I will differ on this one. In sea, sound waves can travel incredibly long distances. In his book "High-Tech Warfare", author Robert Jackson quoted an American anti-submarine warfare (ASW) specialist: "The first time the Soviets put pedal to the metal on an Alpha-class boat, the noise travelled all the way to Bermuda. The Russian submarine was in the Barents Sea at the time, 4000 miles away."

I hope he wasnt joking ;)

I didnt mean that the astute didnt detect something happening across the atlantic was BS, i've heard simmilar stories. What i meant was the claim it had the best SONAR in the world was BS.

[zetruz]

Ozzy Blizzard is certainly right. The USN is certainly the best when it comes to sonar capabilities.
I'll believe you in that the USN has got some pretty advanced sonars. However, how could a Chinese nuclear sub (I think) come as close as a mile away from an American carrier, half a year ago or so?:confused:

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'll believe you in that the USN has got some pretty advanced sonars. However, how could a Chinese nuclear sub (I think) come as close as a mile away from an American carrier, half a year ago or so?:confused:

It was sitting there and the CBG drove over it, pluss they wern't on an ASW fotting i.e. escorts doing sprints & drifts, protective boey lines and Helo's out hunting ect ect..... In a shooting war or even a high threat environment i wouldnt give it a chance of getting as close as 30 miles.

In general SSK's are quieter than SSN's due to the steam and pump noises on nuke boats. The collins class SSK is widely reguarded as one of the best and quietest conventional SSK's in the world. Reportedly it achieved a kill on a CVN during exercises when the CBG was in ASW mode, and that wasnt easy by any means. PLAN SSN's on the other hand are reffered to by USN boat drivers as car sterio's because they're so noisey, so how hard is it going to be for them???


Plus i dont seee what that has to do with USN's SSN's sonar systems....

[f-22fan12]

Once again Ozzy Blizard is right. The Chinese sub knew the U.S.N. would sail through the area. They submerged and went quiet. Then after the carrier passed a couple miles in front of them, they surfaced. They do this to brag about their "superior" submarines. Anyone could have done that. China's subs are not even comparable to the U.S.N.

[zetruz]

I believe you. After all, it was a question.:D

The collins class SSK is widely reguarded as one of the best and quietest conventional SSK's in the world. Reportedly it achieved a kill on a CVN during exercises when the CBG was in ASW mode, and that wasnt easy by any means.
As did a Gotland. I love that story.:p:

[mic of orion]

I believe you. After all, it was a question.:D


As did a Gotland. I love that story.:p:

Gotland one was cool, anyone knows the facts, I bet you it it was embarrassing for USN, lol. :D

[f-22fan12]

By the way, the sub that came close to the carrier was a song class diesel electric submarine, not a nuclear one.

[jaffo4011]

I'm affraid that one is total BS. The USN is a full generation ahead of the rest of the world in sonar capabilities. Astutes may indeed have very capable sonars but the're not going to be better than the best the USN has.



The soviets allways suffered a technological deficit compared to the USN, IIRC the ASW tactics relied on active systems due to their lack of decent passive sysems. However due to the lack of funding for R&D in russia on SONAR's, both passive & active they have been stuck at 1990's level capability for the most part. So they lag behind for the most part.

ozzy,

is this another statement based around the 'america is best' theme or do we have some data to back it up?

for instance...why is an american sub sonar superior to the british astutes,when i presume that the astute is a newer design with later equipment fitted?

[f-22fan12]

ozzy,

is this another statement based around the 'america is best' theme or do we have some data to back it up?

for instance...why is an american sub sonar superior to the british astutes,when i presume that the astute is a newer design with later equipment fitted?

The Atute is a newer design. Correct. Yet it is only a few years newer than the Virginia class subs. And as I said before. The U.S. and U.K. are good allies/friends. There is no need for competition between these too great nations. I am sure they share alot of technology. But whent the newer Virginia's come out there sonar could be better that Astute's. But Overall, the two submarine classes have similiar technology in them.

[f-22fan12]

ozzy,

is this another statement based around the 'america is best' theme or do we have some data to back it up?

for instance...why is an american sub sonar superior to the british astutes,when i presume that the astute is a newer design with later equipment fitted?

And no, its not an "America is the best theme":rolleyes:

[f-22fan12]

The Atute is a newer design. Correct. Yet it is only a few years newer than the Virginia class subs. And as I said before. The U.S. and U.K. are good allies/friends. There is no need for competition between these too great nations. I am sure they share alot of technology. But whent the newer Virginia's come out there sonar could be better that Astute's. But Overall, the two submarine classes have similiar technology in them.

I ment Two great nations, sorry.:cool:

[mic of orion]

ozzy,

is this another statement based around the 'america is best' theme or do we have some data to back it up?

for instance...why is an american sub sonar superior to the british astutes,when i presume that the astute is a newer design with later equipment fitted?

Your arguments aren't convincing, as to latest sonars, You failed to recognize Europeans are technologically advanced as Americans and even better in many aspects.

I just have to look at new generation of warships laid down by various nations in Europe, and I am afraid US sucks major way.

I know Astute has few issues, mainly with the reactor and some optronic and vectronic equipment, but these are being worked on as we speak, still, from what I know of Virginia class, they are belated with issues and financial problems akin to sea wolf class.

Not saying US submarines are bad, but they' aren't best, I won't go in to argument who's d**k is bigger, and than say we are allies and all, to be honest, I do not care if we are allies or not,

If Americans for second thought how others think and feel when you start flag waving and we are the best s**t you'd realize sometimes if you are best it is not worth barging about, others already know that; barging about it won't make you look better, contrary it will make you look stupid, ignorant and very unpopular. BTW America is not the best in many fields, it is rather pathetic in many fields to be honest, in many aspects US is a 3rd world country.

Just to tell you, French sonar that Astute is using has been tested and proved to be the best sonar in the world, now I am not going to publicize Thales and there sonars after all sonars do harm dolphins and whales, so I am not keen on use of sonars, but if we really have to talk about it, lets be reasonable and offer some prof as to what, who, why and when.

This post is not trying to be confrontational, on contrary it tries to convey a sentiment many of us feel, stop barging, and make sensible and constructive argument which will convince us all of your claims.

\V/ Live long and prosper. :)

[Izzy1]

Didn't Tom Clancy get a lot of flak by once writting that in his opinion Royal Navy SSN skippers were better trained and prepared than their US counterparts?

I know the Aussies have their own 'Perisher' course, I assume the Canadians do too?

[f-22fan12]

I deleted it.

[f-22fan12]

I deleted it. I won't argue.

[f-22fan12]

mic of orion is also the one who called us flag waving...

[f-22fan12]

Won't Arugue

[zetruz]

To be honest, I agree with him, partly. It's true the US is the richest country in the world, and you also have the biggest army. The US armed forces had over $500 billion in 2006, whilst the UK, the next biggest defense country, had $50 billion. However, you're not the richest country in the world compared to your size, which is really what matters. Also, I think the US puts way too much money in the defense. There is so much slum and ghetto in the US compared to many other Western countries, you would be surprised. And on the Internet, many US citizens really are asshats. However, you don't seem like one of those. I just believe you should rethink a little, and criticize your government and your country a little. Then you'll see what it's really like.
Have a good day.

[f-22fan12]

To be honest, I agree with him, partly. It's true the US is the richest country in the world, and you also have the biggest army. The US armed forces had over $500 billion in 2006, whilst the UK, the next biggest defense country, had $50 billion. However, you're not the richest country in the world compared to your size, which is really what matters. Also, I think the US puts way too much money in the defense. There is so much slum and ghetto in the US compared to many other Western countries, you would be surprised. And on the Internet, many US citizens really are asshats. However, you don't seem like one of those. I just believe you should rethink a little, and criticize your government and your country a little. Then you'll see what it's really like.
Have a good day.
I certainly agree with you. Thank you for being supportive. I fully acknolgage that there are many poor people in the U.S. and that we have many problems.
By the way, I admire your country's Gotland class ( your swedish, right?)
Anyway have a good day to you as well.

[mic of orion]

mic of orion who do you think you are. 1. You call Americans ignorrant, arrogant, and self centered. I'm an American and I really value our allies around the world. I apreaciate organizations like NATO and want to help our allies. 2. Where are you from that you think so badly of the U.S. 3. The U.S. is certainly not a third world country. We have alot more money and we spend more than anyone else on roads, education, healthcare... I recently went to Italy and saw how people drive on the wrong sides of roads and pickpocket you. I saw crazy drivers on motorcycles. Yet I don't go around saying that Italy and other European nations are uncivilized. They're not. I'm not rude like you are. You're the one who's arrogant. Then you call us a bunch of flag waving... and say we make the world unsafe. We faced serious threats so we took action to defend ourselves. That doesn't mean anything is wrong about us. I don't support our president's plans but still. And about the submarines, American has a defense budget larger than the U.K.,France,Germany,Poland,Italy,Spain and alot of others combined. We have more money to spend on research. As a result, we get better equippment. You can't aruge with it. Why don't you name some goods that are "more advanced" than ours. Sure some of your stuff may be as good as ours(leopard 2, Type 45 Destroyers) but not that much better. And we do not lag behind in any field of defence devolpment, why we have money and brains. When the U.S. gets new equippment we share it with our friends and allies around the world. We actually care about our allies unlike you. mic of orion, its losers and arrogant people like you who come on a forum and have nothing to do but insult others and brag. I'm American, but you didn't see me going around calling other nations third world countries and insulting their people. If your aim is to cause trouble and insult people (which it is) do it somewhere else. Really

man chill out, I said exactly what I think and you are being attacked bc you constantly interfere in other nations affairs, saying you are bing attacked, total bs, you attack other nations and than you say "who me".

Stop that nonsense we are best, flash... YOU AIN'T, nowhere near, what US has done in past 6 years is example of utter stupidity, I am from UK, and I am not happy with our alliance with the US to be honest, sometimes I feel we are playing second fiddle to your imperialistic agenda.

Top 5 Wealthiest nations are in Europe, top 5 best to live countries in the world are in Europe, top 10 national health care systems are in Europe, top 5 living standard nations are in Europe, and list goes, when it comes to literacy, education, mortality rate, and number of many other things you guys are way at the back.

So when I see ppl saying things we got best this and that, I say prove it or shut the f**k up.

I want links and independent studies before you start flag waving, and no I do not hate America, after all my gf is American and I am there quite often, so I get to see perspective from both sides of the Atlantic.

In US I live in comfortable surrounding with good private health care and middle income behind me, but did you know, 65% of US population can't afford health care insurance, many lack social insurance and when you consider how many ppl are bragging about being greatest nation in the world, I say feed your ppl first.

As to how much you spend on defense, well, UK, Italy or France do not go and invade sovereign nations for its oil, I am sure if we did, we'd reconsider our defense spendings (well UK is helping you guys, I must admit I am one who opposed War in Iraq from day one and was very vocal about it).

Not to take over this thread wish suppose to be about submarines, so lets go back to the subject, as I said, prove to me with irrefutable evidence US submarines are best in the world, have best sonars and what not, I know US has great warships, but before you start flag waving you need to back up your claims.

[submerged]

Didn't Tom Clancy get a lot of flak by once writting that in his opinion Royal Navy SSN skippers were better trained and prepared than their US counterparts?

I know the Aussies have their own 'Perisher' course, I assume the Canadians do too?

AFAIK they only run pre-perisher courses or i must be mistaking


Just to tell you, French sonar that Astute is using has been tested and proved to be the best sonar in the world, now I am not going to publicize Thales and there sonars after all sonars do harm dolphins and whales, so I am not keen on use of sonars, but if we really have to talk about it, lets be reasonable and offer some prof as to what, who, why and when.


i really don't understand what your on about because the systems you're talking about on the astute's are passive sonars so there's no transmissions that can harm sealife..

[jaffo4011]

Your arguments aren't convincing, as to latest sonars, You failed to recognize Europeans are technologically advanced as Americans and even better in many aspects.

I just have to look at new generation of warships laid down by various nations in Europe, and I am afraid US sucks major way.

I know Astute has few issues, mainly with the reactor and some optronic and vectronic equipment, but these are being worked on as we speak, still, from what I know of Virginia class, they are belated with issues and financial problems akin to sea wolf class.

Not saying US submarines are bad, but they' aren't best, I won't go in to argument who's d**k is bigger, and than say we are allies and all, to be honest, I do not care if we are allies or not, the fact Americans are so ignorant, arrogant and self centered flag waving bunch of d*****ds makes this world unsafe, and other countries think less of America and Americans.

If Americans for second thought how others think and feel when you start flag waving and we are the best s**t you'd realize sometimes if you are best it is not worth barging about, others already know that; barging about it won't make you look better, contrary it will make you look stupid, ignorant and very unpopular. BTW America is not the best in many fields, it is rather pathetic in many fields to be honest, in many aspects US is a 3rd world country.

Just to tell you, French sonar that Astute is using has been tested and proved to be the best sonar in the world, now I am not going to publicize Thales and there sonars after all sonars do harm dolphins and whales, so I am not keen on use of sonars, but if we really have to talk about it, lets be reasonable and offer some prof as to what, who, why and when.

This post is not trying to be confrontational, on contrary it tries to convey a sentiment many of us feel, stop barging, and make sensible and constructive argument which will convince us all of your claims.

\V/ Live long and prosper. :)

ive got to say that i dont think that blizzard or 22 deserved this abuse.(and believe me that ozzy and i most often dont agree on things!)

its one thing to state your opinions on the best equipment but not to trash an entire nation and its people with what are really nothing more than bigoted views.

if all nations think of others in this way then that is what leads men to fight sometimes unnecessary wars in the first place.

i may agree with some of your views on the sonar and equipment but lets keep it non nationalistic and friendly.its a lot more pleasant.(and that was part of my point in my original post..)

[eckherl]

mic of orion is also the one who called us flag waving...

f-22 - dont go there with this guy, it is not worth it.:)

[mic of orion]

ive got to say that i dont think that blizzard or 22 deserved this abuse.(and believe me that ozzy and i most often dont agree on things!)

its one thing to state your opinions on the best equipment but not to trash an entire nation and its people with what are really nothing more than bigoted views.

if all nations think of others in this way then that is what leads men to fight sometimes unnecessary wars in the first place.

i may agree with some of your views on the sonar and equipment but lets keep it non nationalistic and friendly.its a lot more pleasant.(and that was part of my point in my original post..)

Well, you come to these forums, and if there is a argument about something, especially which country has what, yanks somehow always show with we are best and thats that. I am sick and tiered reading such trash, if they are saying they are best at this fine, prove it, this is all I am saying, btw I am not insulting anyone here, what I said is more or less a fact, I am saying sort your welfare, education and health care and than come telling us what's what.

The fact one tiny gotalnd submarine managed to sneak in to middle of US carrier battle group in the middle of naval training proves my point, clearly they aren't he best if tiny Sweden can do that, I wonder what others can do.

Just bc someone has money to spend does not mean they are best, you know expression, quality over quantity.

BTW, UK's DDG program cost for first 6 ships is estimated at 5.8 billion pounds, in USD = 11.5 billion USD. Astute Submarines - program for first 4 boats = 3.72 billion pounds = 7.44 billion USD.

German F124 Program = 2.8 billion Euro for 4 frigates = 3.8 billion USD.

[gf0012-aust]

Some of you need to settle down a bit and pull in your patriotic horns.

Rather than suspend people for unseemly behaviour, I'm going to let some of you go back and self moderate (as in edit your own threads).

Those that don't will get them edited at our discretion.

In addition - can we stop with the oneliner comments and follow on posts? Don't waste bandwidth, edit and merge please - better still, leave the simple oneliners out altogether.

[mic of orion]

f-22 - dont go there with this guy, it is not worth it.:)

Admin: Text deleted. See my previous. The comments deleted only helped in reinforcing a continuing counter response and foster more defensive comments.

I know F22 is one of the best fighters out there, and it should be, it is true 5th generation fighter, in a fight no other comes even close, I am just sad Europeans couldn't get together and get something similar, instead they went with 3-4 programs which I must admit aren't that great.

my apologies if some of you got offended,.. :beer:

[AegisFC]

The problem with the whole "X country has the best equipment" arguement is (other than being assinine) that anything specific about these systems is classified and what is available on public domain isn't always accurate and those memebers on this forum who do have that knowledge won't go into specifics either (and they shouldn't over a public forum).

The fact one tiny gotalnd submarine managed to sneak in to middle of US carrier battle group in the middle of naval training proves my point, clearly they aren't he best if tiny Sweden can do that, I wonder what others can do.

You've never seen or been a part of a naval excercise have you? Most of the time one side or the other has artificial rules in place (the ship has to be in X box, or transit Y false straights that only exist on a map) or capibilities are limited, do we know if some of these rules were in place during this excerscise?
Besides this was TRAINING and training makes you better and shows were you need to improve on. So what that the Gottland snuck up on a CVN, how many high value ships have the US or British subs snuck up on? The important thing is that the USN (and our allies) have learned from it during this TRAINING and is developing ways to make sure it does not happen in the future during a conflict.

BTW, UK's DDG program cost for first 6 ships is estimated at 5.8 billion pounds, in USD = 11.5 billion USD.

And they seem to carry too few missiles for their main role, let alone any secondary role they may wish for them in the future. Other than that it seems to be a very good design and I wish the RN the best of luck with them!
What does these prices you are listing have to do with anything, price does not always reflect capibility.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

ozzy,

is this another statement based around the 'america is best' theme or do we have some data to back it up?

for instance...why is an american sub sonar superior to the british astutes,when i presume that the astute is a newer design with later equipment fitted?


Its not "america is the best" its just the facts bud. The astute is a fearsome platform, and dont think for a second that i am discounting its capabilities, i would love one for the RAN. But the fact of the matter is that the USN has the most sophisticated sonar systems in the world. Thats not that hard to believe given the huge ammount of funding going into R&D for the USN's SSN programe. Just because the Astute has a newer hull doesent automaticaly mean that it has superior systems to advanced USN boats like the Sea Wolf or Virginia.

Some data to back it up....

I don't know why alarm bells would go off in the pentagon. the USN and NAVSEA were called in to assist in Astutes development. The UK sub industry has degraded so much that they called in the cousins for assistance.

the USN and NAVSEA did a report to congress on the degradation of the UK ship building industry as a warning to how bad things had become. That same report was made available to Australia as we have undergone similar degradation

This is common knowledge within the sub community - and has appeared in internal community publications such as Periscope and the NSL Journals.

I have no idea why you think US sub building is falling by the "waste" (sic) side - the US is a generation ahead of anyone else at the systems and package level.

Post #691



I've been to a "couple" of UDT sessions on the development and capability of Seawolf and Virginias compared to their comtemps. Astute is a fine boat - but she's no Seawolf

at an acoustic level, they (USN current gen) are a golden mile ahead of anyone else. to be blunt, the RN (as good as they are) do not have the same degree and level of sympathetic systems in place.

where the RN excels in is in trg, but since the cancellation of their diesels, even that has taken a hammering as they have lost Perisher skills.

Post #693

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5679&page=47&highlight=astute


This is from someone who actually works in the field concerned and has dealt with collins class SSK systems and signature managment. So his oppinions on this subject tend to hold some weight.

And boys please dont get into a pissing contest, its not worth having annother thread closed down over. So the largest economy on earth can afford the largest R&D budget, and therefore has the most sophistocated systems, thats not hard to work out and it shouldn't prick anyones national pride to achnowlage it.

Jaffo i remeber you got pretty defenceive when someone stated that the F22 is half a generation ahead of the Typhoon, which it is, and now your getting defenceive over sonar capabilities. Mate its no black mark against the RN or RAF to admit that their platforms are behind the largest military and R&D infestructure on earth. If your going to get defenceive every time someone outlines the US's superiority in a particular field your going to be getting your knickers in a twist quite a bit.

[Jade]

Thnx for the excellent participation.

Now, here's my assessment:

Castro said the "marvelous submarine would bring about either (the end of Britain) or the holocaust of the human race."

Castro, is absolutely right by making that statement about a holocaust.

How does any nation know whose missile is being fired ?

UK, France, Russia, US, China, and very soon India have nuclear subs with ICBM's.

The UK could bring it's sub close to India and fire an ICBM at China.
Then China thinking India has launched an attack will destroy India.

If India has a 2nd strike, then it will also destroy China.

Meanwhile, China will attack US as it will gain from a destroyed China.

Russia too might start firing it's missile's.

And, that would be the end of the world in a matter of a few minutes.

You might set off for work and the world could be destroyed before you could even reach your office !!!

The biggest threat to mankind is Nuclear powered and armed subs.

[f-22fan12]

I won't argue anymore

[f-22fan12]

Ozzy couldn't have said it better. Thats what I've been trying to say all along. Whichever country has the most cash and enough brains and experience, will come out on top. Right now the U.S. has brains experience and most importantly billions and billions of dollars for R&D. I'm also sure the U.S. shares this tech. with NATO allies like the U.K. France and others if they want it. But really, its OK the F-22 is half a generation ahead of the Eurofighter, why its about TWICE as much $. Same thing with about every other piece of American defense equippment, it costs alot more $ to get.

[f-22fan12]

Thnx for the excellent participation.

Now, here's my assessment:

Castro said the "marvelous submarine would bring about either (the end of Britain) or the holocaust of the human race."

Castro, is absolutely right by making that statement about a holocaust.

How does any nation know whose missile is being fired ?

UK, France, Russia, US, China, and very soon India have nuclear subs with ICBM's.

The UK could bring it's sub close to India and fire an ICBM at China.
Then China thinking India has launched an attack will destroy India.

If India has a 2nd strike, then it will also destroy China.

Meanwhile, China will attack US as it will gain from a destroyed China.

Russia too might start firing it's missile's.

And, that would be the end of the world in a matter of a few minutes.

You might set off for work and the world could be destroyed before you could even reach your office !!!

The biggest threat to mankind is Nuclear powered and armed subs.

I agree with you partially. I agree that submarines will certainly be the things that destroy our world. HOWEVER, I'm sure they have ways of knowing which country fired what missiles. But again SSBN's will oneday destroy us all if there is a war.:)

[f-22fan12]

f-22 - dont go there with this guy, it is not worth it.:)
Thank you for understading. Sorry, I didn't see this comment before I posted my second arguement but I'll stop now for sure.
I deleted it though.
Back to Submarines, thnx for understanding.:)

[f-22fan12]

ive got to say that i dont think that blizzard or 22 deserved this abuse.(and believe me that ozzy and i most often dont agree on things!)

its one thing to state your opinions on the best equipment but not to trash an entire nation and its people with what are really nothing more than bigoted views.

if all nations think of others in this way then that is what leads men to fight sometimes unnecessary wars in the first place.

i may agree with some of your views on the sonar and equipment but lets keep it non nationalistic and friendly.its a lot more pleasant.(and that was part of my point in my original post..)

jaffo4011, thank you for standing up for me. I appreciate it.
I will stop posting comments against mic of orion now.
Thnx for support+understanding once again.:)

[f-22fan12]

Some of you need to settle down a bit and pull in your patriotic horns.

Rather than suspend people for unseemly behaviour, I'm going to let some of you go back and self moderate (as in edit your own threads).

Those that don't will get them edited at our discretion.

In addition - can we stop with the oneliner comments and follow on posts? Don't waste bandwidth, edit and merge please - better still, leave the simple oneliners out altogether.

Will do. I wont argue anymore.

[DoC_FouALieR]

How do u rate Agosta 90B with scorpenes???
Scorpene are a generation ahead of Agosta 90B, moreover Scorpene has AIP, that make it a more capable sub than the Agosta in all realms.

The USN is a full generation ahead of the rest of the world in sonar capabilities.
I would tempered this statement. I agree that USN is a generation ahead in passive sonar capability, but when it comes to active sonar, France's VDS technology is often stated to be a generation ahead.
It is often said that during joint exercises, the USN wants the French ASW ships to turn off their VDS because of their efficiency in detecting subs...

[f-22fan12]

I've always had one huge question about nuclear subs.
The Seawolf class carries 50 weapons to Virginia's 38. The Seawolf is faster than Virginia. Yet people say the Virginia is more advanced than the seawolf. Which do you think is better. The faster, deadlier seawolf or the less deadly slower and more advanced Virginia.
Thnx.

[Izzy1]

I've always had one huge question about nuclear subs.
The Seawolf class carries 50 weapons to Virginia's 38. The Seawolf is faster than Virginia. Yet people say the Virginia is more advanced than the seawolf. Which do you think is better. The faster, deadlier seawolf or the less deadly slower and more advanced Virginia.
Thnx.

Seawolf is to be fair a product of the Cold War - indeed I guess it was the last western SSN specifically designed to hunt and destroy Soviet subs.

Designed from the outset to restore and enhance the USN's acoustic advantage over a rapidly developing Soviet SSN fleet, the Seawolf program was blessed with massive funding and incorporated a lot of new technology. For instance, they were the first operational US SSN class to incorporate pumpjet propulsion. With sustained combat with the Soviet fleet in mind, a large magazine was fitted as standard.

They certainly weren't designed with littoral warfare in mind like the Virginia. The last Seawolf built, SSN-23 USS Carter had major modifications to give it a littoral capability, but the expense of Seawolf could no longer be justified. Seawolf is a hunter-killer, plain and simple and it without doubt does the job incredibly well.

The end of the Cold War meant that there was no longer a need for such a capable yet mission-specific platform like Seawolf. Virginia's design accepts the new need for a boat that could perform multi-role missions - especially supporting special forces and intelligence gathering. Given the lack of an enemy SSN threat, a large weapons magazine like that of Seawolf was a secondary consideration.

I think on a pure numbers versus development cost basis, Seawolf can still be judged more expensive than Virginia.

In conclusion, they simply were designed for different roles in an ever-changing world - yet without doubt both fantastic submarines.

[f-22fan12]

thanks. I would go for the seawolf though.

[riksavage]

Instead of comparing and contrasting Astute vs. Virginia etc. we should be looking at comparing potential adversaries. After all there is no way the UK and US will go head-to head!!!

If we look at both sub designs (Astute / Virginia) and expected life-cycle of 25 years, and assuming they benefit from ongoing technology inserts / upgrades, what other existing or up and coming nuclear or conventional subs are now or in the future capable of taking them on?

Future boat designs operated by the following countries for example:

Russia
China
Pakistan (Assuming a total melt-down and ‘Talibanization’ of the country)
Iran

[Izzy1]

I would add to this list, countries that possess European-sourced SSKs and have 'potential issues' with UK/US. Argentina and Venezuela spring to mind, not to mention the North Koreans, although their submarine fleet is in a pretty poor state.

[f-22fan12]

Instead of comparing and contrasting Astute vs. Virginia etc. we should be looking at comparing potential adversaries. After all there is no way the UK and US will go head-to head!!!

If we look at both sub designs (Astute / Virginia) and expected life-cycle of 25 years, and assuming they benefit from ongoing technology inserts / upgrades, what other existing or up and coming nuclear or conventional subs are now or in the future capable of taking them on?

Future boat designs operated by the following countries for example:

Russia
China
Pakistan (Assuming a total melt-down and ‘Talibanization’ of the country)
Iran

The Chinese PLAN type 636 improved Kilo will be probobly the first and toughest adversary the Virginias will come up against. Also the new AIP Russian sub. (I forgot its name) Iran still has the old Kilos and the U.S. want fight Pakistan because now they are our "ally"

[robsta83]

the U.S. want (sic) fight Pakistan because now they are our "ally"

Did you read the post?


Pakistan (Assuming a total melt-down and ‘Talibanization’ of the country)

[f-22fan12]

Did you read the post?

Sorry I thought it said something else. In that case Pakistan wouldn't be able to aquire submarines from the U.S., Germany,France,Spain,Italy and all the other Western nations. They would have to get their submarines from a country that doesn't care if your run by the Taliban. (don't know who would sell submarines in that case)

As for their current submarines, they would be the easiest of all. They only have a few Agosta 90Bs. No real threat at all.

[Izzy1]

They only have a few Agosta 90Bs. No real threat at all.

Maybe not, but THEY build those Agosta, thus they have the knowledge and ability to develop further. And once again, it isn't just about technology, its about the crews who use them.

[f-22fan12]

Maybe not, but THEY build those Agosta, thus they have the knowledge and ability to develop further. And once again, it isn't just about technology, its about the crews who use them.

So what they built a few Agosta 90Bs. They would need money WHICH THEY DO NOT HAVE to continue developing good submarines.

And their crews, whoever came up with the idea that the personall on Pakistan's submarines are good? :confused:

[DoC_FouALieR]

And their crews, whoever came up with the idea that the personall on Pakistan's submarines are good?
And the idea that they are not good? They've been trained by the French, that was part of the Agosta deal.

[ahussains]

What are the technicall diffrence between scorpene and Agusta in brief like the Size sonar diving depth etc ?

[f-22fan12]

Pakistani naval soldiers may have been trained by the French. Big deal, that doesn't mean they've maintained their standards. By the way, in all the wars Pakistan and India have fought, what is the kill ratio of the Pakistani submarines.

[Izzy1]

They would need money WHICH THEY DO NOT HAVE to continue developing good submarines.


One word, my obviously young friend - Saudi.

naval soldiers...

I hope you mean sailors.

[XaNDeR]

I've always had one huge question about nuclear subs.
The Seawolf class carries 50 weapons to Virginia's 38. The Seawolf is faster than Virginia. Yet people say the Virginia is more advanced than the seawolf. Which do you think is better. The faster, deadlier seawolf or the less deadly slower and more advanced Virginia.
Thnx.


I would put my money on Seawolf.
Virginia was designed as a cheaper alternative to Sea Wolf , infact Sea Wolf is faster , more equiped , and more quiet.

[jaffo4011]

Its not "america is the best" its just the facts bud. The astute is a fearsome platform, and dont think for a second that i am discounting its capabilities, i would love one for the RAN. But the fact of the matter is that the USN has the most sophisticated sonar systems in the world. Thats not that hard to believe given the huge ammount of funding going into R&D for the USN's SSN programe. Just because the Astute has a newer hull doesent automaticaly mean that it has superior systems to advanced USN boats like the Sea Wolf or Virginia.

Some data to back it up....



Post #691




Post #693

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5679&page=47&highlight=astute


This is from someone who actually works in the field concerned and has dealt with collins class SSK systems and signature managment. So his oppinions on this subject tend to hold some weight.

And boys please dont get into a pissing contest, its not worth having annother thread closed down over. So the largest economy on earth can afford the largest R&D budget, and therefore has the most sophistocated systems, thats not hard to work out and it shouldn't prick anyones national pride to achnowlage it.

Jaffo i remeber you got pretty defenceive when someone stated that the F22 is half a generation ahead of the Typhoon, which it is, and now your getting defenceive over sonar capabilities. Mate its no black mark against the RN or RAF to admit that their platforms are behind the largest military and R&D infestructure on earth. If your going to get defenceive every time someone outlines the US's superiority in a particular field your going to be getting your knickers in a twist quite a bit.

im not at all defensive...its called objectivity.and having the highest budget doesnt automatically result in the best platform or design.sometimes money keeps being ploughed into a poor design just because its available instead of thinking laterally with less dosh!

and ozzy,i dont wish to be rude but could you utilise your spell checker as your spelling detracts from your obvious knowledge in your posts

cheers.

[f-22fan12]

One word, my obviously young friend - Saudi.



I hope you mean sailors.


I don't think that the Saudis would provide Pakistan funding if the Taliban took over there. That would be funding a terrorist state. The U.S. and others wouldn't just sit their and watch terrorists get hi-tech, expensive submarines. They would do something about it. The Saudis are close allies of the U.S. and I really don't think they would fund a terrorist state. If they did the U.S. and Europe would also put an arms embargo on them witch they wouldn't like either.

And by the way Izzy, I do know that the Saudis are the bank for Muslim countries that aren't that rich. But after all the U.S. has done to stop terrorists and extremists, I don't think the Saudis would fund Pakistan's new submarines.

[Izzy1]

If they did the U.S. and Europe would also put an arms embargo on them witch they wouldn't like either.

And Saudi stops the oil - who comes off worse?


I don't think the Saudis would fund Pakistan's new submarines.

Get real - Saudi funded their nuclear weapons program for God's sake!!!

[f-22fan12]

Seawolf is to be fair a product of the Cold War - indeed I guess it was the last western SSN specifically designed to hunt and destroy Soviet subs.

Designed from the outset to restore and enhance the USN's acoustic advantage over a rapidly developing Soviet SSN fleet, the Seawolf program was blessed with massive funding and incorporated a lot of new technology. For instance, they were the first operational US SSN class to incorporate pumpjet propulsion. With sustained combat with the Soviet fleet in mind, a large magazine was fitted as standard.

They certainly weren't designed with littoral warfare in mind like the Virginia. The last Seawolf built, SSN-23 USS Carter had major modifications to give it a littoral capability, but the expense of Seawolf could no longer be justified. Seawolf is a hunter-killer, plain and simple and it without doubt does the job incredibly well.

The end of the Cold War meant that there was no longer a need for such a capable yet mission-specific platform like Seawolf. Virginia's design accepts the new need for a boat that could perform multi-role missions - especially supporting special forces and intelligence gathering. Given the lack of an enemy SSN threat, a large weapons magazine like that of Seawolf was a secondary consideration.

I think on a pure numbers versus development cost basis, Seawolf can still be judged more expensive than Virginia.

In conclusion, they simply were designed for different roles in an ever-changing world - yet without doubt both fantastic submarines.

I know all that. I'm not a fool. My question was would you rather put your money on Seawolf or Virginia. :)

[Izzy1]

I know all that. I'm not a fool.

That's strange, you were thanking me for that in thread 49.


Grow up, fast.

[f-22fan12]

And Saudi stops the oil - who comes off worse?




Get real - Saudi funded their nuclear weapons program for God's sake!!!

They funded the nuclear weapons program when the country was run by a government or dictator. Not Taliban militants. There was already enough suspition about there nuke program under a stable government. I don't think they would let anyone fund a terrorist's NUCLEAR weapons.

Again, I really DO NOT THINK the Saudis would fund Pakistani weapons if the country was run by terrorists. They should have some sense in them, or do they not have any at all. I have full confidence that the will remember the terrorist strikes on their country and think differently. Pakistan's nuclear weapons don't help stability in an already dangerous part of the world. And the fact Pakistan has had how many military coups? does not make anyone feel good when they learn such an unstable country has nuclear weapons. Lets not even discuss the oil.

That's strange, you were thanking me for that in thread 49.


Grow up, fast.

I meant I knew one was designed for the cold war and the other was designed for the coastel regions to support operations against terrorists. I was just really trying to figure out how much more advanced Virginia was than Seawolf
I thanked you for your effort in resoponding. All you did was tell me how they were different and why they were built. Not which one you would think is better for a Hunter Killer Mission.

Anyways, lets stop argueing with each other so much. :)

[Izzy1]

I really DO NOT THINK the Saudis would fund Pakistani weapons if the country was run by terrorists.

What?!!! As opposed to a military Junta who is backed by a state intelligence organisation that actually nurtured the Taliban threat in the first place! Again, please get real.


And the fact the Saudis funded Pakistan's nuclear weapons IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF.

Don't even go there - for a start I'm British, not Saudi. READ and inform yourself before you assume - it's something you clearly need to do a lot of considering the amount of people you seem to p**s off here on DT.


Pakistan's nuclear weapons don't help stability in an already dangerous part of the world.

In all fairness, nuclear weapons and the threat of escalation stopped the last confrontation between India and Pakistan over Kashmire several years ago.

[Jade]

O.K.

1) I hear the Astute's propulsion makes it quieter than a baby Dolphin !!

So, how can you detect it ?

2) The Astute's speed is 20 knots, so for it's size it's the fastest sub as well !!!

3) So, if Subs are undetectable, then who is to say whose nuclear missile targeted this or that country ?
This could mean total confusion and total war - as Castro said !?

Can anyone answer that pls ?

[f-22fan12]

What?!!! As opposed to a military Junta who is backed by a state intelligence organisation that actually nurtured the Taliban threat in the first place! Again, please get real.
The military created the militancy to fight the Soviets in Afg. At this time everyone was helping them to stop the Soviets.



Don't even go there - for a start I'm British, not Saudi. READ and inform yourself before you assume - it's something you clearly need to do a lot of considering the amount of people you seem to p**s off here on DT.

I'm sorry about my comment and will take your advice.


In all fairness, nuclear weapons and the threat of escalation stopped the last confrontation between India and Pakistan over Kashmire several years ago.

I understand that nukes prevented India from attacking Pakistan but still. Thats a dangerous part of the world. And another countries acquiring of nukes doesn't help.

[f-22fan12]

Something messed up on that post.

[Izzy1]

I understand that nukes prevented India from attacking Pakistan but still. Thats a dangerous part of the world. And another countries acquiring of nukes doesn't help.

For once, I couldn't agree more :) .

[f-22fan12]

O.K.

1) I hear the Astute's propulsion makes it quieter than a baby Dolphin !!

So, how can you detect it ?

2) The Astute's speed is 20 knots, so for it's size it's the fastest sub as well !!!

3) So, if Subs are undetectable, then who is to say whose nuclear missile targeted this or that country ?
This could mean total confusion and total war - as Castro said !?

Can anyone answer that pls ?

1) Might be true not sure though
2) You could detect it the way you detect other subs. Dipping sonar from a helicopter, active or passive sonar as well. It would be harder to detect if it is that quiet though.
3) They're not "undetectable" but are hard to detect. People really don't know who targets their missiles at who. But you could kind of figure/guess. During the Cold War it would be obvious that the USSR and U.S. targeted missiles at each other. I wouldn't be surprised if China targeted its missiles at the U.S. and Taiwan. But anyhow it doesn't take long to retarget or target a missile. A few flicks of the switch and there you have it.
4) Its not that far fetched a war could start by complete accident. If a country was test launching another potential "enemy" of that country would think they were launching and launch back. :)

[f-22fan12]

For once, I couldn't agree more :) .

Glad we are in agreement. Once again, I'm sorry about my previous comment. I edited the comment. :)

[Izzy1]

I'm sorry about my previous comment. I edited the comment.

Don't worry about it, I've heard worse, especially in Arabic!

[f-22fan12]

Don't worry about it, I've heard worse, especially in Arabic!

Thank you for forgiving me. I will watch my tounge. ( I hate being offended in another language, especially when I don't understand!) :)

[f-22fan12]

By the way, Izzy1 do you know if Janes fighting ships has alot about submarines? If it doesn't could you tell me a book by Janes that does have alot about submarines.

[Izzy1]

Jane's Fighting Ships certainly contains details on all the World's current submarines. Yet, it does not go into detail very much - mainly given to the fact that it is such a large piece of work and there is only so much space available.

Personally, I don't think you can go far wrong with www.globalsecurity.org It may not be bang up-to-date, but its very close, well sourced and completely free.

[f-22fan12]

Izzy1, thank you. I've used global security and like you said it is not up to date. This becomes quite irritating.
Thank You. :)

[Izzy1]

No problem, maybe try gf0012-aust. I'm sure he could give you a few better sources than me.

[falcon2k7]

The main advantage of Virginia over Seawolf is the crew size and therefore cheaper to deploy over time. As far as silence, etc. I have no clue. I've not really followed the development that closely. The ship was designed mainly to keep the shipyards open producing nuclear powered ships from my understanding.

Still the new German 212 sub is quite nifty. Still they can remain submerged for a month where as the US/UK nuclear subs can remain underwater until the food runs out.

Someone was mentioning the French active sonar...well active sonar on a submarine is not a very good option. Takes away from the platform's best weapon: stealth.

All things being equal, I'm going to have to still say Seawolf. It maybe a relic of the Cold War, but as more countries build SSBN's, we could see it's old mission return: kill the enemy sub with the ballistic missiles.

[Todjaeger]

O.K.

1) I hear the Astute's propulsion makes it quieter than a baby Dolphin !!

So, how can you detect it ?

2) The Astute's speed is 20 knots, so for it's size it's the fastest sub as well !!!

3) So, if Subs are undetectable, then who is to say whose nuclear missile targeted this or that country ?
This could mean total confusion and total war - as Castro said !?

Can anyone answer that pls ?

Okay, here's my response.

1) :unknown Just don't know

2) I consider this number suspect at best. Soviet (and Russian) Alpha-class SSN with liquid-metal (bismuth IIRC) reactors were listed at times with max speeds of 45+ knts when dived. I've also heard unofficially that USN 688/Los Angeles-class SSNs could equal or exceed that. Another thing to remember is then when a sub is submerged, there is a limit to the max speed it can move at without causing cavitation. IIRC that limit is usually around 18 kts (could be off though, not ex-Navy or anything) anything past that causes the cavitation as mentioned which then increases the acoustic signature of the sub dramatically.

3) Subs might not be able to be detected prior to missile launch, depending on locations of enemy subs and/or ASW assets. That doesn't mean which nation fired the BM couldn't be identified though. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the BM flight profiles are known, things like overall size, rate of acceleration, thermal signature, etc. So even if there is an unexpected launch it might only be a matter of minutes before it is determined who did it, and where the missile is heading.

-Cheers

[Jade]

India yesterday anounced it was ready to deploy a Nuclear Capable Submarine missile called Sagarika.

What news of it anyone ?

Is it really good ?

What is it's range a payload ?

[Izzy1]

India yesterday anounced it was ready to deploy a Nuclear Capable Submarine missile called Sagarika.

What news of it anyone ?

Is it really good ?

What is it's range a payload ?


Development began around 1991, originally borrowing heavily from Prithvi I technology. Around 1996, the DRDO actually claimed the project terminated as India began concentrating on PJ-10 Brahmos development and explored the purchase of the SS-N-27 "Club".

However, it seems development did indeed continue with drastic increases in range being demanded (2,000 Km+), unclear if these have been achieved however. Janes Underwater Warfare Systems claims prototypes only had a 300km range - similar to the SS-N-27.

Warhead weight is estimated at 500kg conventional or a low-yield nuclear, with an accuracy CEP of 30 to 50 meters.

[zetruz]

Someone was mentioning the French active sonar...well active sonar on a submarine is not a very good option. Takes away from the platform's best weapon: stealth.
Yes, but it can be used very effectively as a last resort, especially against other subs.
Because if you have been found, and there's maybe even a torpedo in the water - and you still don't know where it came from - it's probably the best thing to do.

[Jade]

Development began around 1991, originally borrowing heavily from Prithvi I technology. Around 1996, the DRDO actually claimed the project terminated as India began concentrating on PJ-10 Brahmos development and explored the purchase of the SS-N-27 "Club".

However, it seems development did indeed continue with drastic increases in range being demanded (2,000 Km+), unclear if these have been achieved however. Janes Underwater Warfare Systems claims prototypes only had a 300km range - similar to the SS-N-27.

Warhead weight is estimated at 500kg conventional or a low-yield nuclear, with an accuracy CEP of 30 to 50 meters.

O.K.

What is the pecking order of Submarine Fleets in the world and in Asia ?

Submarines only.

The US may be the best Submarine builder and deployer in the world.

Next, Russia ?

3rd France ?

4th UK ?

5th ?

In Asia
------
1st China ?

2nd India ?


Who can answer that ?

[f-22fan12]

O.K.

What is the pecking order of Submarine Fleets in the world and in Asia ?

Submarines only.

The US may be the best Submarine builder and deployer in the world.

Next, Russia ?

3rd France ?

4th UK ?

5th ?

In Asia
------
1st China ?

2nd India ?


Who can answer that ?

The U.S. is first

2. U.K. They have great experience in submarines with great crews and ships. They have had many classes of great SSN's and used one to sink a ship in the Falklands war. The new Asutes are great as well.

3. Russians. great new AIP subs + Akulas and Typhoon. Suffer from lack of funding.

4. French. They have had only one class of SSN so they aren't that experienced. But good SSBNs.

ASIA.

1. China. Song, Yuan diesel-electric + Han and Xia class. Also Kilo including the improved Kilo versions AND new type 093+094 SSN and SSBN

2. Japan. Long line of good subs. Yushio, Harushio, and now Oyashio. All built in big numbers. Large amounts of high quality and high capability subs. Good crew training as well b/c cooperation exercises with the U.S.N.

3. India Kilo+ type 209s. New Scorpenes with AIP

4. Australia. Collins class are among the best diesel electric around.

[nero]

.

france is not far off from the U.S.A.

in a decade french SSNs will be as good as that of U.S.A



.

[Waylander]

Are you both talking about shipbuilding (subbuilding) capabilities?

If yes it is a little bit interesting to see India in the list with originally russian and german build subs.
Collins is as well not an indigineous design but swedish even if the Aussies cleared the flaws of the design on their own.
And when I look at commercial success the Brits don't look that impressive while others look much better.
Spain is entering the market and you left germany aside which has a long (and successfull) line of exporting and developing subs.

And one should differ between nuclear and non nuclear sub builders.

For example when it comes to nuclear subs the US for very good in R&D as well as building capacities.
But on the other side their current SSK building capabilities are near to zero.

[B.Smitty]

Hi Guys,
Could someone pls tell me the difference between a Coastal Sub like the Scorpene Sub that France is building for India and Britains Nuclear Attack Sub the Astute ?

What other types of Subs are there in the nuclear arena ?


I hear the propulsion system for the Astute is unique - just how much ?

Any news on the India ATV ?

Thnx

FYI, the author Joe Buff wrote an essay with thoughts on the drawbacks of SSKs vis-a-vis SSNs here,

"Diesel-AIPs: Low Displacement as a Weakness"

http://www.joebuff.com/essay01.htm

His site has a fair number of interesting submarine-related articles and is worth checking out, IMHO.

[zetruz]

Waylander:
I agree completely. Germany was known to be the submarine-building country. They have new AIP subs which should be about as good as Sweden's, right?:confused:

[Waylander]

The AIP is said to be better.
And Kockums now belongs to HDW. :D

[f-22fan12]

I thinks the Germans make the best conventional subs around. They are great at engineering.

[Chrom]

The AIP is said to be better.
And Kockums now belongs to HDW. :D
The hull itself (AIP, stealth) german sub is most likely the best or one of.
For SSK weapon package i'll say russians are still unmatched.

Besides, active sonar is very important addidion to any sub. They allow to imploy varios tactic to detect enemy subs. Some examples:

1. Your sub know what enemy sub is around and possible follow it. Active sonar can clear all the doubts and surprise the enemy.
2. SSN + SSBN composition when SSN or SSK guard SSBN. The SSN or SSK can use active sonar to make sure what enemy sub dont follow SSBN.
3. Seeking enemy sub when operating under friendly protection.
4. Seeking enemy sub what lie on the ground or just hang deep in water. In that case sub useally dont produce any sound and can be detected only by active sonar.

[DoC_FouALieR]

I'm very doubtful about the use of active sonar onboard submarine. If they are of any use, that would only be on extra fast submarine, like the alpha class, and certainly not on SSKs...

What's the strenght of SSK? Their silence and ability to operate in shallow water. Pinging will just give away the sub position to anyone in a great radius, and for a SSK unable to sustain high speed, that means death.

1. Certainly active sonar can surprise the ennemy, but that means that you have already catch the ennemy sub on passive array, so active is useless and reveal your position to other platform in the environment. Pinging away in a sub with no passive contact is suicide.

2.3.4.That is the job of surface ASW ships. The extremely low frequency VDS is much more desirable in that role because it can bring much more power at the ideal depth than any sub's active hull array.

[Todjaeger]

I'm very doubtful about the use of active sonar onboard submarine. If they are of any use, that would only be on extra fast submarine, like the alpha class, and certainly not on SSKs...

What's the strenght of SSK? Their silence and ability to operate in shallow water. Pinging will just give away the sub position to anyone in a great radius, and for a SSK unable to sustain high speed, that means death.

1. Certainly active sonar can surprise the ennemy, but that means that you have already catch the ennemy sub on passive array, so active is useless and reveal your position to other platform in the environment. Pinging away in a sub with no passive contact is suicide.

2.3.4.That is the job of surface ASW ships. The extremely low frequency VDS is much more desirable in that role because it can bring much more power at the ideal depth than any sub's active hull array.

I'd have to diagree, active sonar definately has it's place on subs. As indicated in point 1 though, it is in support of passive sonar arrays. It (or is becoming :unknown ) US practice to use active sonar on the attack subs to locate enemy subs. This I believe is being adopted as a result of the disemination of conventional sub technology, allowing more users to start operating very quiet diesels. My understanding is that some SSK designs, when operating on batteries or some AIP systems, make so little noise that even with the passive arrays, US sub crews are unaware of them. Hence the development of tactics to make more use of active sonar since that relies less upon acoustic emanations from the target.

-Cheers

[Jade]

Are you both talking about shipbuilding (subbuilding) capabilities?

If yes it is a little bit interesting to see India in the list with originally russian and german build subs.
Collins is as well not an indigineous design but swedish even if the Aussies cleared the flaws of the design on their own.
And when I look at commercial success the Brits don't look that impressive while others look much better.
Spain is entering the market and you left germany aside which has a long (and successfull) line of exporting and developing subs.

And one should differ between nuclear and non nuclear sub builders.

For example when it comes to nuclear subs the US for very good in R&D as well as building capacities.
But on the other side their current SSK building capabilities are near to zero.

Well, India is building an aircraft carrier called ATV.

It does build detroyers of world class - so they claim !!

In subs, they are building Scorpenes with French assistance.

And, they have a nuclear sub well on it's way to completion !!

Who can elaborate on that then ?

[kinggodzilla87]

The U.S. is first

2. U.K. They have great experience in submarines with great crews and ships. They have had many classes of great SSN's and used one to sink a ship in the Falklands war. The new Asutes are great as well.

3. Russians. great new AIP subs + Akulas and Typhoon. Suffer from lack of funding.

4. French. They have had only one class of SSN so they aren't that experienced. But good SSBNs.

ASIA.

1. China. Song, Yuan diesel-electric + Han and Xia class. Also Kilo including the improved Kilo versions AND new type 093+094 SSN and SSBN

2. Japan. Long line of good subs. Yushio, Harushio, and now Oyashio. All built in big numbers. Large amounts of high quality and high capability subs. Good crew training as well b/c cooperation exercises with the U.S.N.

3. India Kilo+ type 209s. New Scorpenes with AIP

4. Australia. Collins class are among the best diesel electric around.

What about Japans 2900t class submarine
This is a new class of diesel-electric submarine being built in Japan for use by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force. It is believed to be an evolved form of the Oyashio class submarine, currently the latest type of conventionally-powered submarine operated by the JMSDF, and it will have a larger displacement than any previous class of submarine used by Japan.

[DoC_FouALieR]

I'd have to diagree, active sonar definately has it's place on subs. As indicated in point 1 though, it is in support of passive sonar arrays. It (or is becoming ) US practice to use active sonar on the attack subs to locate enemy subs.
I was rather talking about active sonar on SSK that are unable to sustain high speed, but in the case of USN submarines, there speed and thus evading capability make them able to use active sonar.
But from a french viewpoint, I'm still doubtful about these tactics.

[f-22fan12]

What about Japans 2900t class submarine
This is a new class of diesel-electric submarine being built in Japan for use by the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force. It is believed to be an evolved form of the Oyashio class submarine, currently the latest type of conventionally-powered submarine operated by the JMSDF, and it will have a larger displacement than any previous class of submarine used by Japan.

The 2,900 ton class is not in service yet.