Arab Air Forces [Archive] - Defence Talk Forum

T-95

May 23rd, 2007, 05:03 PM

the new Saudi pilots being trained by Americans as well as by Pakistanis are very good. I would have to say its because of the new generation of pilots who are educated & passionate about defence. I think some of the princes have also joined the Saudi Air Force.

The UAE air force is however very much dependent on PAF. If Pakistanis pull out, most of their infrastructure might collapse. Their F-16E/F & Mirage2000-9 are usually headed by PAF pilots appointed on lease, contreact &/or completely purchased (meaning giving them UAE nationality & keeping them permanently).

Egyption Air Force has good equipment but no where near the UAE's. UAE Air Force can perhaps even counter Egypt's numerical superiority with its qualitative edge. Nevertheless Egyptions are good at many levels (their pilotd also serve in UAE).

I was thinking that too but keep in mind UAE is less experienced in operating their F-16's than the Egyptians. The EAF has at least 12 pilots that completed 1000 hrs. in their F-16's. Also the EAF has 220 F-16's (upgrading all of them to block 40/42 standards), 20 Mirage 2000's and are discussing the sale of 40 MiG-29 SMT's with the Russians. That brings that total to 240 modern warplanes and 280 if the Russian deal comes through.

Also consider manpower-the Egyptians have no shortage of skilled pilots, while the UAE has a difficult time finding any qualified personnel, although they are doing significantly better than the Saudis who have a really hard time flying anything. But your right there are some Saudi princes, who are highly educated, joining the RSAF the biggest example being Prince Bandar.

Taking into account man power, experienced pilots, infrastructure and equipment I'd still say Egypt's the closest thing the Arabs have to a potent air force.

contedicavour

May 25th, 2007, 09:15 AM

The EAF has at least 12 pilots that completed 1000 hrs. in their F-16's. Also the EAF has 220 F-16's (upgrading all of them to block 40/42 standards), 20 Mirage 2000's and are discussing the sale of 40 MiG-29 SMT's with the Russians. That brings that total to 240 modern warplanes and 280 if the Russian deal comes through.

.

I wasn't aware of this MIG29 SMT discussion between Russian and Egypt. Is the source reliable ? Such a deal would surprise me a lot since it has been quite some time that the Egyptian front line is 100% American (the dozen or so operational Mirage-2000s set aside).

cheers

T-95

May 25th, 2007, 09:59 AM

I wasn't aware of this MIG29 SMT discussion between Russian and Egypt. Is the source reliable ? Such a deal would surprise me a lot since it has been quite some time that the Egyptian front line is 100% American (the dozen or so operational Mirage-2000s set aside).

cheers

Yes, i think the Egyptians did it as "political retaliation" for the F-15E's they were denied. The Russians are giving it to them at severely slashed prices in a bid to restore ties that were severed after the Yom Kippur war. I don't understand their decision either the F-15E is almost strictly an deep strike fighter with an A2A capability to defend it self while the MiG-29SMT is a plane built for A2A combat.

Also doesn't this present a logistics and training problem?

Sorry I can't post links yet but look it up on Yahoo! and Google. You'll even find a link to the a state owned news paper stating it (Al-Ahram). Apparently Putin and Mubarak were talking about it when Mubarak was making visits to China and Russia for assistance for the revival of their nuclear energy program.

T-95

May 27th, 2007, 09:04 AM

Dose anyone know whether Egypt got tech transfers from America for their F-16 and whether their licensed to produce their own spare parts for the F-16?

SABRE

May 27th, 2007, 11:41 AM

Dose anyone know whether Egypt got tech transfers from America for their F-16 and whether their licensed to produce their own spare parts for the F-16?

I havent herd of any such news & my personal opinion is that chances are very grim.

T-95

May 27th, 2007, 11:46 AM

I havent herd of any such news & my personal opinion is that chances are very grim.

Thought so too. They could export such spare parts to Venezuela.

radiosilence

May 27th, 2007, 02:19 PM

They could export such spare parts to Venezuela.

Why would Egypt do that ? They still receive 1.7 billion in aid annually.

T-95

May 27th, 2007, 03:00 PM

Why would Egypt do that ? They still receive 1.7 billion in aid annually.

I didn't mean to say that they would. Of course they wouldn't but I'm saying its a possibility that might have led the US not to transfer such tech. Not to mention Israel probably objecting to it.

SaudiArabian

May 27th, 2007, 11:41 PM

i hear the Saudis have some of the best equipment(Eurofighters, EC3 sentry, 175 F-15's) but have Pakistanis operating most of them.

from where did you get such false information ?

there are no foreign fighter pilots in the RSAF since a long time , otherwise proove it (and you can't because there aren't any)

same is for the maintenance and training crews whom are Saudis as well

the last jet fighter in the RSAF ever flown by a Pakistani pilot was the Lightning jet fighter , at that time half of the RSAF lightnings and probably skymasters was flown by Saudis while the rest half was flown by British and Pakistani pilots and that was many decades ago in the 50's and 60's ..

no Pakistani pilot ever flew other than the lightning

unfortunately most of the information on RSAF on English internet websites are either false or outdated and needs an update

King Faisal Air Academy , which is built here 38 years ago have trained lots of fighter pilots and maintenance crews .. now its not only training Saudi nationals but also its training foriegners .. in the last students graduated from it there was several foriegn students , one of them is a Pakistani who was trained in the Saudi Academy to serve in the Pakistani Air Force

if you see a foriegner in the RSAF then he is no other than a contractor for a foriegn company (like Boeing and BAE and the others) or a trainer

Rich

May 28th, 2007, 06:50 PM

What is your connection with the RSAF?

from where did you get such false information ?

there are no foreign fighter pilots in the RSAF since a long time , otherwise proove it (and you can't because there aren't any)

same is for the maintenance and training crews whom are Saudis as well

the last jet fighter in the RSAF ever flown by a Pakistani pilot was the Lightning jet fighter , at that time half of the RSAF lightnings and probably skymasters was flown by Saudis while the rest half was flown by British and Pakistani pilots and that was many decades ago in the 50's and 60's ..

no Pakistani pilot ever flew other than the lightning

unfortunately most of the information on RSAF on English internet websites are either false or outdated and needs an update

King Faisal Air Academy , which is built here 38 years ago have trained lots of fighter pilots and maintenance crews .. now its not only training Saudi nationals but also its training foriegners .. in the last students graduated from it there was several foriegn students , one of them is a Pakistani who was trained in the Saudi Academy to serve in the Pakistani Air Force

if you see a foriegner in the RSAF then he is no other than a contractor for a foriegn company (like Boeing and BAE and the others) or a trainer

SaudiArabian

May 28th, 2007, 08:00 PM

What is your connection with the RSAF?

some of my relatives are in the RSAF and other branches in the Armed Forces

i have some videos for the RSAF that i'll put in the Military Photos and media section , soon .

:)

Khairul Alam

May 30th, 2007, 02:53 PM

why doesnt anyone mention the Jordanian Air Force? they may not have adequate modern fighter jets but i think their pilots are very well trained.

Khairul Alam

May 31st, 2007, 08:07 AM

Izzy1

June 4th, 2007, 05:33 PM

can anyone explain the acute lack of personnel in the armed forces of the Gulf states? small population bases might be one reason, but that surely isnt the problem in the case of Saudi Arabia. i had once read a jane's article regarding the Kuwaiti airforce. it mentioned that there werent even enough pilots to man the 40 or so F-18s Kuwait had procured in the mid 90's. it said that pampered Kuwaiti guys showed no interest of joining up at all.oh pity pity!!!

There are several reasons why all Arab nations suffer shortages of trained manpower - some of which are actually social in origin. Kenneth M Pollack's excellent book "Arabs at War - Military Effectiveness 1948-1991" describes the reasons in greater detail than I ever could.

But using Saudi as an example, population size is a factor - but the main point here is education. Technically qualified graduates would rather rapidly earn their fortunes in the petrochemical business than slogging it in the ranks - and who can blame them? Saudi, given all the expensive kit it buys suffers more than most on these terms. Further, retaining those technically qualified persons who do opt for military service is another problem. Saudi Arabian Airlines for example offers huge incentives to qualified RSAF officers to resign their commissions and work for them.

Saudi does not conscript either, it has an all volunteer military which makes matters worse. The military must compete for skilled individuals on an open and very competative job market.

A social problem that effects manpower throughout the Arab world is also the popular view of military service as 'unfashionable'. Princes flying around in F-15s is one thing, but military service and especially service in the Army is judged the very last option for anyone here. Things are changing, but very slowly and Arab nations like Saudi, Jordan and the UAE will have to continue to rely on foreign personell to fill their ranks.

swerve

June 5th, 2007, 06:37 AM

... Things are changing, but very slowly and Arab nations like Saudi, Jordan and the UAE will have to continue to rely on foreign personell to fill their ranks.

Surely Jordan is in a different category; a relatively poor (no oil!) Arab country which supplies relatively skilled manpower to the oil-rich but skill-poor Gulf states.

weasel1962

June 5th, 2007, 07:58 AM

Deleted

SABRE

June 5th, 2007, 10:00 AM

There are several reasons why all Arab nations suffer shortages of trained manpower - some of which are actually social in origin. Kenneth M Pollack's excellent book "Arabs at War - Military Effectiveness 1948-1991" describes the reasons in greater detail than I ever could.

But using Saudi as an example, population size is a factor - but the main point here is education. Technically qualified graduates would rather rapidly earn their fortunes in the petrochemical business than slogging it in the ranks - and who can blame them? Saudi, given all the expensive kit it buys suffers more than most on these terms. Further, retaining those technically qualified persons who do opt for military service is another problem. Saudi Arabian Airlines for example offers huge incentives to qualified RSAF officers to resign their commissions and work for them.

Saudi does not conscript either, it has an all volunteer military which makes matters worse. The military must compete for skilled individuals on an open and very competative job market.

A social problem that effects manpower throughout the Arab world is also the popular view of military service as 'unfashionable'. Princes flying around in F-15s is one thing, but military service and especially service in the Army is judged the very last option for anyone here. Things are changing, but very slowly and Arab nations like Saudi, Jordan and the UAE will have to continue to rely on foreign personell to fill their ranks.

Even before the book came out the PAF instructors & trainers assigned to RSAF had been complainig about this. They gave several points to their officials in PAF as well as in RSAF. According to them:

1. Majority cadits were tough to teach due to the level of education. Some had to be sent for special English courses (later RSAF started English classes in the forces it self).

2. They lack the "popular passion" for the armed forces.

3. Rich & educated are just too rich & educated to Join the army (that hints ur patrpchemical point).

4. Saudi leadership is passionate for technology but not for human resource.

5. The wealthy also consider the armed forces job as inferior (the famous incident was when RSAF official called aircraft maintainance as work of a mechanic --- I dont know if the RSAF official was a wealthy person or not but it proves the point).

However, there have been reforms & they have been affective. Saudis are joining RSAF & there seems to be a passion for armed forces [e.g: new Saudis Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good ... not as good as others have but still better than what they used to be]. Educated are also joining.

Some say people have gotten motivated seeing their princes join the armed forces. But the princes in armed forces is very questionable.

1. Do they really have passion for armed forces?

2. In time of war would they participate?

3. Is their joing armed forces out of sense of patriotism or a political move (to make sure that armed forces dont turn against them by joining them)?

Izzy1

June 5th, 2007, 12:06 PM

Surely Jordan is in a different category; a relatively poor (no oil!) Arab country which supplies relatively skilled manpower to the oil-rich but skill-poor Gulf states.

You do make a valid point Swerve, Jordan's manpower problems are probably a lot less severe than those of GCC military forces. Unusually for the Arab world, Jordan's military enjoy a high social standing - I believe King Abdullah is the only Arab Monarch who's military service didn't end on graduation day at Sandhurst. Jordan's education system also helps, for some years now it has been less 'religious-orientated' than those of other Arab nations - partly due to the fact as you say, it doesn't have oil funds available to attract foreign skills, so it must develop its own.

However, Jordan does also maintain the strongest working relationships with western militaries than nearly any other Arab nation. The RJAF for instance has long utilised long-term secondments of personnel from the USAF and the RAF. I would also argue that Jordan has been wise in the military equipment it has procured - buying systems it knows it can integrate and operate effectively rather than lavish kit which ends up only going into storage.

Taking the pilots from the non-religious school sector tends to conflict with the greater emphasis on religious studies so that's a vicious cycle.

Again, you are not wrong - more relevant, technical education is the only way the Arab world is ever going to be in a position to have the effective military manpower it needs to match the kit it buys. Indeed - Arab economies as a whole demand it. But the hurdle of religo-social traditions here may take some time to compromise with.

Rich

June 8th, 2007, 09:22 PM

Does anyone have any information on Jordans future fighter aircraft plans? I know they operate a small number of Falcons, F-5s, and Mirages. But does anyone know their future plans? Are they going to upgrade their Falcons or go for the Rafale, or EF?

The scuttlebutt Ive heard and read is that the Jordanian forces were probably the most respected of the Arab forces by the Israelis. And now? Like many Arab countries, western kit, western doctrine, western training. Is there really any doubt they have much improved?

Izzy1

June 9th, 2007, 06:44 AM

I honestly think Rafale and Typhoon are out of Jordan's budget range for the moment. I would tempt the guess that they may soon start looking at ex-French Mirage 2000s and they would like to snatch up more refurb Falcons if the US Congress were willing to authorise.

Jordan's funding prioirties however may delay any new aircraft purchases in favour of new armour for the Army and increased funding for internal security forces and the Border Guard.

Rich

June 9th, 2007, 10:24 AM

Thank you. I thought that would be the answer but I cant find any material on it.

I honestly think Rafale and Typhoon are out of Jordan's budget range for the moment. I would tempt the guess that they may soon start looking at ex-French Mirage 2000s and they would like to snatch up more refurb Falcons if the US Congress were willing to authorise.

Jordan's funding prioirties however may delay any new aircraft purchases in favour of new armour for the Army and increased funding for internal security forces and the Border Guard.

Izzy1

June 10th, 2007, 02:30 AM

The following is from Janes World Air Forces in regards Jordan's efforts to build up it's F-16 fleet. Must admit, I didn't realise just how much RJAF had turned to ex-Euro Falcon users as a source for more aircraft.

Janes World Air Forces, Royal Jordanian Air Force - updated 25/04/2007 ... In addition to the 16 F-16A/B aircraft delivered from the US in the late 1990s, Jordan began accepting a further batch of 17 F-16A/B Block 15 air defence aircraft from the US as excess defence articles in 2003. The latter are presently undergoing upgrade to MLU standard, featuring new radar, cockpit avionics and weapons capabilities. This work began in early 2006 and is being performed by Turkish Aerospace Industries at Ankara (12 aircraft) and in Jordan (five aircraft), with completion scheduled for October 2009.

In November 2005, Jordan signed an agreement to acquire three F-16BMs from the Netherlands for operational training, pending availability of additional upgraded aircraft. In the following April, it was announced that Jordan was to obtain an additional 22 surplus F-16AM and F-16BM fighters - eight from the Netherlands, comprising five F-16AMs and three F-16BMs and 14 from Belgium (12 F-16AMs and two F-16BMs). These are MLU-standard aircraft are expected to enter service in 2008, all being fully upgraded to MLU standard. When deliveries and upgrade work are completed, Jordan's air force should possess close to 60 F-16 aircraft, of which 42 will be to MLU standard.

eaf-f16

June 10th, 2007, 10:00 AM

swerve

June 10th, 2007, 05:35 PM

...
Another question is doesn't the RSAF pay ALOT of money for people to come work with them? because Prince Bandar was pilot in the RSAF and he was a millionaire when he joined in. I'm sure he wouldn't have joined if they didn't pay him enough money and would have probably went into some other job at Saudi ARAMCO or something.

I doubt Prince Bandar cared about the pay rates. He's a member of the royal family, & close to the group within the family who actually run things (e.g. his father, Prince Sultan). I think there are still some elements of noblesse oblige within that bunch.

Izzy1

June 10th, 2007, 06:21 PM

From all accounts, the Syrian Air Force is in trouble, last year the Isreali Chief of Defence Staff claimed that it was operating at a very low tempo due to lack of fuel and spares for its ageing fleet. I will have a look through my Air Forces Monthly for the exact report. Janes World Air Forces also points to the failiure to purchase the Su-27 and the current standard of training as further indicators of the problems the Syrian Air Force is facing.

In regards to Egypt and Jordan, I have no doubt that they are as qualified as their Gulf counterparts and in some ways better prepared. As I say, Jordan has gone to great lengths with limited resources to develop a relatively effective defensive air capability.

Egypt remains in my opinion, the premier Arab Air Force. It has very good operating and maintenance levels - more importantly, it can maintain its own aircraft without the need for large scale foreign-sourced expertise. The EAF's organisation is also very streamlined and efficient, the training programme especially is reputed to be very good. Egyptian pilots probably have more annual flight hours than any other Arab Air Force (apart from maybe the Saudi F-15 fleet, which apparently logs more flight time than even the USAF's F-15 squadrons). Yet, unlike RSAF, the EAF perhaps make their hours more relevant by regularly exercising more realistic scenarios and missions, they also particpate in more annual multi-national exercises than most of the Arab Air Forces combined.

Significantly, the EAF holds a very high social standing as I am sure you can testify. It is very western-orientated, a lot less politicised than the Egyptian Army, common Arab military problems like nepotism and "operational hermeticism" don't seem to effect the EAF and the force is rightly considered an elite and professional organisation. Most of crucially of all however, the EAF has the most combat experience of any Arab Air Force over the last 50 years and has learnt the lessons and accepted change when it needed to be implemented. The final and best measure perhaps of the EAF is the respect it holds among other Arab Air Forces and fact that even the Israeli Air Force speaks highly of its capabilities.

Another question is doesn't the RSAF pay ALOT of money for people to come work with them? because Prince Bandar was pilot in the RSAF and he was a millionaire when he joined in. I'm sure he wouldn't have joined if they didn't pay him enough money and would have probably went into some other job at Saudi ARAMCO or something.

Just to answer this one quickly, yes RSAF does have good pay scales, the best in the Saudi military. Non-Royalty however are still attracted to the civilian sector for numerous reasons. For the Princes, joining RSAF is more about the lifestyle/glamour it offers than money (what do you want after a Ferrari - an F-15 perhaps?) - you don't find many Princes in the Hercules squadrons. As Kenneth Pollack also describes, there is a certain "warrior" image that the House of Saud considers it has to be seen to meet, RSAF is seen as the most comfortable way of achieveing this. Finally, joining the military and the RSAF especially is an excellent way of developing political influence - Prince Bandar being an excellent case in point.

SaudiArabian

June 11th, 2007, 02:20 PM

Even before the book came out the PAF instructors & trainers assigned to RSAF had been complainig about this. They gave several points to their officials in PAF as well as in RSAF. According to them:

1. Majority cadits were tough to teach due to the level of education. Some had to be sent for special English courses (later RSAF started English classes in the forces it self).

many of the PAF personnel (or any other Pakistani scientist working in the Kingdom) speak English awefully and with the Urdo accent , this makes difficulty to communicate and i witnessed this alot in King Saud University

2. They lack the "popular passion" for the armed forces.

says who ? .. what is your source for that ?

joining the Armed Forces is a source of pride (similar to the pride given to a doctor) in the Saudi society

3. Rich & educated are just too rich & educated to Join the army (that hints ur patrpchemical point).

that is false , most Saudis are quite wealthy but not rich and it has nothing to do with joining the military

4. Saudi leadership is passionate for technology but not for human resource.

that is also untrue . Saudi Arabia isn't only training many national personnel but also foriegners from fellow Arab and Muslim countries get training in the Kingdom

in the recent graduated pilots from King Faisal Air Academy , there was a Pakistani pilot graduated with them

5. The wealthy also consider the armed forces job as inferior (the famous incident was when RSAF official called aircraft maintainance as work of a mechanic --- I dont know if the RSAF official was a wealthy person or not but it proves the point).

that is extremely false ! as i said earlier , the work in the Armed Forces , National Guard and the Security Forces is a high source of pride in the Kingdom

you will witness that if you are in any 'Majlis' at a party and listen to the men hailing a person and congratulating him for joining the Military (especially if he becomes a personnel in the RSAF)

However, there have been reforms & they have been affective. Saudis are joining RSAF & there seems to be a passion for armed forces [e.g: new Saudis Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good ... not as good as others have but still better than what they used to be]. Educated are also joining.

Some say people have gotten motivated seeing their princes join the armed forces. But the princes in armed forces is very questionable.

Saudis were joining the RSAF since the time when its name was "the Hijazi Najdi Air Force"

1. Do they really have passion for armed forces?

i get sad every day that i didn't admit to King Faisal Air Academy instead of the college of medicine at KSU

2. In time of war would they participate?

there is something about the Saudi military capability that most military specialists do not realize

the Saudi Society is one of the most well Armed Societies in the whole world (with many peices of weapons per capita) and in many houses there is an 'armory' where weapons are stored

this is what explains how come tens of thousands of Saudi nationals were trained for very few months and fought very effectively in Afghanistan in the war against the Soviets , these tens of thousands were all non-military personnel . the same thing was repeated in Chechenya and Bosnia

3. Is their joing armed forces out of sense of patriotism or a political move (to make sure that armed forces dont turn against them by joining them)?

yes somehow for patriotism but no political . its mainly religious/Jihadic sense because we , Saudi Society , consider joining the military as "Jihad" and now its more jihadic specially joining the Security Forces is a "Jihad for Allah" against the "Khawarej" aka Al Qaida organisation of the Arabian Peninsulla

eaf-f16

June 11th, 2007, 04:10 PM

that is also untrue . Saudi Arabia isn't only training many national personnel but also foriegners from fellow Arab and Muslim countries get training in the Kingdom

in the recent graduated pilots from King Faisal Air Academy , there was a Pakistani pilot graduated with them

Who exactly dose Saudi Arabia train besides the couple of Pakistanis every year that get trained to use Tornados and F-15's to serve the RSAF as private defense contractors?

Do Egyptians and Jordanians get trained there? And how can they train fighter pilots from other Arab and Muslim countries if they are the only operators of F-15's and Tornadoes in both the Muslim and the Arab world?

I think you need to tone down the patriotism a bit and present factual statements.

Izzy1

June 11th, 2007, 04:26 PM

Who exactly dose Saudi Arabia train besides the couple of Pakistanis every year that get trained to use Tornados and F-15's to serve the RSAF as private defense contractors?

Do Egyptians and Jordanians get trained there? And how can they train fighter pilots from other Arab and Muslim countries if they are the only operators of F-15's and Tornadoes in both the Muslim and the Arab world?

I think you need to tone down the patriotism a bit and present factual statements.

I'm sorry but I do have to step in and point out to you that King Faisal Air Academy has a long record of training pilots from most Arab nations - Egypt included. Saudi like all Arab nations has exchange programs that see students study at other participating nation's air academies. Its nothing at all to do with patriotism - its a fact of life! Every modern air force in the World does it.

Pilots there are not trained to fly specific platforms - they are trained simply to fly. First they receive basic flight instruction on the Cessna 172 or Super Mushshak and then progress if successful, onto the PC-9. If they make the grade, they then go on elsewhere for more advanced training.

SaudiArabian

June 11th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Who exactly dose Saudi Arabia train besides the couple of Pakistanis every year that get trained to use Tornados and F-15's to serve the RSAF as private defense contractors?

Do Egyptians and Jordanians get trained there? And how can they train fighter pilots from other Arab and Muslim countries if they are the only operators of F-15's and Tornadoes in both the Muslim and the Arab world?

I think you need to tone down the patriotism a bit and present factual statements.

i believe Izzy has ellaborated enough :)

and by the way my reply is not based on "patriotism tone" but on facts

two days ago , there was a ceremony in King Faisal Air Academy of the 72nd batch of students , two of the graduates are from Bahrain and Jordan

as for what i mentioned in my previous reply , i can't provide you directly with the link because my posts are less than 15

to find it , check Riyadh Newspaper website and search in the archieve for edition #13698 in the National news and you'll find it in the headlines

every 6 months , the Air Academy graduates new batch of pilots

Izzy1

June 11th, 2007, 05:54 PM

...two of the graduates are from Bahrain and Jordan.

It's interesting you should mention Bahrain. I am trying to get more information in regards to the success of their new pilot training programme.

It is I believe, quite unique in the fact that their student pilots go straight from the T-67 Firefly Basic Trainer onto the Hawk 129. With no advanced turboprop training in-between (eg. PC-9, Tucano, Harvard II etc) - that must be quite a step up for anyone to make.

eaf-f16

June 12th, 2007, 08:11 AM

I'm sorry but I do have to step in and point out to you that King Faisal Air Academy has a long record of training pilots from most Arab nations - Egypt included. Saudi like all Arab nations has exchange programs that see students study at other participating nation's air academies. Its nothing at all to do with patriotism - its a fact of life! Every modern air force in the World does it.

Pilots there are not trained to fly specific platforms - they are trained simply to fly. First they receive basic flight instruction on the Cessna 172 or Super Mushshak and then progress if successful, onto the PC-9. If they make the grade, they then go on elsewhere for more advanced training.

Sorry, I wasn't aware of this. I stand corrected. But dose that really mean anything?

I knew that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries participate in a biannual Egypt-US military exercise called Operation Bright Star but I didn't know we had connections beyond that (other than the few gulf Arabs that come to Egypt to get some training).

But I think this is mainly a co-operative thing to "boost moderation and stability in the region" and shouldn't be used to say the Saudis have amazing training (but they do have amazing training than most in some cases better than Israel) or have an amazing army.

SaudiArabian

June 12th, 2007, 08:35 AM

It's interesting you should mention Bahrain. I am trying to get more information in regards to the success of their new pilot training programme.

It is I believe, quite unique in the fact that their student pilots go straight from the T-67 Firefly Basic Trainer onto the Hawk 129. With no advanced turboprop training in-between (eg. PC-9, Tucano, Harvard II etc) - that must be quite a step up for anyone to make.

as far as i know , there are PC-9's in Riyadh Air Base (its the old airport in Riyadh where King Faisal Air Academy basic training occurs) , i see them flying every day especially on day time

for example if you are near King Abdulaziz road in the Area of the military hospital then you may see these PC-9's flying on low altitude and probably even have the chance to take a picture if you have a good camera (not mobile phone camera) :)

I knew that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries participate in a biannual Egypt-US military exercise called Operation Bright Star but I didn't know we had connections beyond that (other than the few gulf Arabs that come to Egypt to get some training).

there is an air exercise between EAF and RSAF where Egyptian F-16's and Saudi F-15's have participated , i was told that Saudi pilots flew the Egyptian F-16's while the Egyptian pilots flew the Saudi F-15's inorder to exchange experience and know the differences . i don't remember when that exercise occured but its more than a year ago .

eaf-f16

June 12th, 2007, 08:39 AM

there is an air exercise between EAF and RSAF where Egyptian F-16's and Saudi F-15's have participated , i was told that Saudi pilots flew the Egyptian F-16's while the Egyptian pilots flew the Saudi F-15's inorder to exchange experience and know the differences . i don't remember when that exercise occured but its more than a year ago .

Cool. Was this in Saudi or in Egypt?

Izzy1

June 12th, 2007, 11:08 AM

as far as i know , there are PC-9's in Riyadh Air Base (its the old airport in Riyadh where King Faisal Air Academy basic training occurs) , i see them flying every day especially on day time

for example if you are near King Abdulaziz road in the Area of the military hospital then you may see these PC-9's flying on low altitude and probably even have the chance to take a picture if you have a good camera (not mobile phone camera)

Sorry I meant the Bahraini's don't currently operate any advanced turboprops of their own.

I always look up when I hear RSAF's PC-9s over Riyadh - they fly awfully close to Kingdom Tower sometimes! I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of paintings of RSAF PC-9s painted by an Aussie here who helps maintain them.

SaudiArabian

June 12th, 2007, 11:24 AM

Cool. Was this in Saudi or in Egypt?

i don't know exactly

these joint Air exercises name is "Faisal" and are practiced every summer since the year 2000

the 1st joint exercist is named Faisal-1 and was in June 2000

Faisal-2 was in April~May 2001 in KSA

Faisal-3 in the summer of 2002

Faisal-4 was in May~June 2003 in King Fahd Air Base in Taif

Faisal-5 in the summer of 2004

Faisal-6 from 4th to 20th of April 2005

i don't have further info on these joint exercises more than what i mentioned above

SABRE

June 12th, 2007, 01:51 PM

many of the PAF personnel (or any other Pakistani scientist working in the Kingdom) speak English awefully and with the Urdo accent , this makes difficulty to communicate and i witnessed this alot in King Saud University

The best were called back to Pakistan after a short period. Only those were left in KSA who were suppose to train on RSAF fighter aircrafts. The few best that were left in KSA were also called back recently as Pakistan is going through force modernization. So I can understand what you really came across. I deal with such people everyday.

You should see the PAF pilots assigned to the UAE. I just visited some of them along with few Egyption pilots. Now they are high caliber pilots. Guess UAE pays more & gives better incentives

says who ? .. what is your source for that ?

joining the Armed Forces is a source of pride (similar to the pride given to a doctor) in the Saudi society

From what I know this is the recent phenomina. I dont know how old are you, but do u remember or ever herd of the Makka (Kabba) take over by the terrorists? (I'll answer rest to this when you reply to it)

that is false , most Saudis are quite wealthy but not rich and it has nothing to do with joining the military

It actually does. This is not just a Saudi problem or of a state. This is a problem at the individual level. Not many wealthy or rich prefer to join forces. This I have seen in Pakistan as well, but at least not every one is wealthy or rich.

that is also untrue . Saudi Arabia isn't only training many national personnel but also foriegners from fellow Arab and Muslim countries get training in the Kingdom

in the recent graduated pilots from King Faisal Air Academy , there was a Pakistani pilot graduated with them.

Pakistani pilots graduate from world over, mostly from Turkey. In the beggining it was Iran but relations just drifted away. As for Saudis institutions training foreigners, I wont challenge that. But I would ask who is teaching there? Local Saudis or Foreigners are being tought by Foreigners? (This is really a question not a sarcasm)

that is extremely false ! as i said earlier , the work in the Armed Forces , National Guard and the Security Forces is a high source of pride in the Kingdom

you will witness that if you are in any 'Majlis' at a party and listen to the men hailing a person and congratulating him for joining the Military (especially if he becomes a personnel in the RSAF)

The artical/report in which all this was stated is from late 1980s & early 1990s. It was an unofficial Memoirs of top PAF pilots who have served abroad. Since that time I have no doubt that Saudi passion has changed. In fact I also mentioned somewhere that new Saudi Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good & a committed force.

& btw, I am a frequent visiter to Saudi Arabi (Jeddah, Makka & Madina). May be we'll meet someday & I'll have a sit in ur Majlis.

there is something about the Saudi military capability that most military specialists do not realize

the Saudi Society is one of the most well Armed Societies in the whole world (with many peices of weapons per capita) and in many houses there is an 'armory' where weapons are stored

this is what explains how come tens of thousands of Saudi nationals were trained for very few months and fought very effectively in Afghanistan in the war against the Soviets , these tens of thousands were all non-military personnel . the same thing was repeated in Chechenya and Bosnia

Well ... there are various dimensions to the fight in Afghanistan, which made the Jihad effective. Talking abt would take ages.

yes somehow for patriotism but no political . its mainly religious/Jihadic sense because we , Saudi Society , consider joining the military as "Jihad" and now its more jihadic specially joining the Security Forces is a "Jihad for Allah" against the "Khawarej" aka Al Qaida organisation of the Arabian Peninsulla

I was refering here to the princes joining the forces not the people.

Anyways, the points I gave are over decade old & much of it is not true today. As I myself said that Saudi Armed forces have improved, but there is always room for further improvement.

SaudiArabian

June 12th, 2007, 02:42 PM

The best were called back to Pakistan after a short period. Only those were left in KSA who were suppose to train on RSAF fighter aircrafts. The few best that were left in KSA were also called back recently as Pakistan is going through force modernization. So I can understand what you really came across. I deal with such people everyday.

well bro untill today , i have never seen any PAF fighter pilot in KSA not even a maintenance personnel

what i do see is many dedicated scientists in universities (whom there only weakness point is the accent as i mentioned to you , very few of them speak English perfectly and those are excellent doctors)

a retired captain of the RSAF (relative of mine ; an excellent well experienced maintenance engineer not fighter pilot) said only some of the very old Saudi Lightning fighters were flown by Pakistani pilots in the 60's because KSA urgently aquired British-made jet fighters to face the problems with the Egyptian military on the Saudi-Yemeni Boarder. PAF pilots haven't flew any other jet fighter

the only second Pakistani Military Deployment to the Kingdom was a small military deployment (few thousands ground troops) during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait . this military deployment ended shortly by the end of the war

there has been no Pakistani military presence ever since (the reports of Pak deployment to the Kingdom in 2003 "to protect the royal family because they don't trust the Saudi people" is untrue and was spreaded by anti-KSAgov movements in Europe

You should see the PAF pilots assigned to the UAE. I just visited some of them along with few Egyption pilots. Now they are high caliber pilots. Guess UAE pays more & gives better incentives

maybe i would but i haven't seen any of them in here

From what I know this is the recent phenomina. I dont know how old are you, but do u remember or ever herd of the Makka (Kabba) take over by the terrorists? (I'll answer rest to this when you reply to it)

It actually does. This is not just a Saudi problem or of a state. This is a problem at the individual level. Not many wealthy or rich prefer to join forces. This I have seen in Pakistan as well, but at least not every one is wealthy or rich.

its still false and untrue , maybe you would know more if you monitored the Saudi newspapers and find something like this : "few hundreds accepted in the Military colleges while other thousands were unaccepted"

there are tens of thousands of Saudi recently-graduated students from high schools admit to the Saudi Armed Forces , the National Guard and the Security Forces but only few hundreds are accepted because the chairs are full

this is happening since a very long time , you'll wonder why . i'll tell you there are many reasons and wealth is one of the reasons why many Saudis admit to the Armed Forces and the National Guard ..

its because military personnel are granted high salaries (yes high salaries!) that make them wealthy plust the other benifits like having a free house during the time of service , special healthcare and (if the military personnel wants advanced training then he gets) free advanced education mostly abroad in the US , Europe and Pakistan

as for the seizure of Makkah in 1400 AH , i have a video of more than 40 minutes about that incident plus photos and many information on what happened as well as detailed information about Juhaiman's ideology and how they all surrendered after its been proven to them that their ideology is false (its why he looks so shocked in the video) because their claimed (undefeatable) Mahdi was killed by SANG's infront of them

i am 21 years old . however , my parents , uncles and my grandparents have lived the days of that incident and also know alot of it

and that video is on Google Video website while the information i have is in Arabic , i may translate them if its possible to put a thread about that incident on DefenceTalk.com

Pakistani pilots graduate from world over, mostly from Turkey. In the beggining it was Iran but relations just drifted away. As for Saudis institutions training foreigners, I wont challenge that. But I would ask who is teaching there? Local Saudis or Foreigners are being tought by Foreigners? (This is really a question not a sarcasm)

i asked a Saudi pilot in the 92nd squadron (with few hundreds of flight hours on F-15S) if he saw any Pakistani pilots or trained by them and he said to me no there aren't any , all the trainers/instructors and maintenance are Saudis

The artical/report in which all this was stated is from late 1980s & early 1990s. It was an unofficial Memoirs of top PAF pilots who have served abroad. Since that time I have no doubt that Saudi passion has changed. In fact I also mentioned somewhere that new Saudi Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good & a committed force.

& btw, I am a frequent visiter to Saudi Arabi (Jeddah, Makka & Madina). May be we'll meet someday & I'll have a sit in ur Majlis.

these PAF pilots are wrong in their view

i was a very young boy during the late 80's and early 90's . at that time everyone i know in my age wants to be a soldier and buys military clothes from the shops

i personnaly begun using a light hunting rifle when i was 9 years old , i don't even know what was that rifle's name lol

I was refering here to the princes joining the forces not the people.

royals in the armed forces and national guards could be counted on fingers , they are so few and very rare

Anyways, the points I gave are over decade old & much of it is not true today. As I myself said that Saudi Armed forces have improved, but there is always room for further improvement.

maybe 4~5 decades old :D , no offence bro but things here are way different than the misinformation on some internet websites

take a look at the military videos section in here , its been updated with my videos on YouTube on the RSAF :)

if you have any evident of any PAF personnel flew or maintained Saudi Jet Fighters (other than the Lightning & probably Strikemasters) then please provide it in the RSAF thread and i'll be thankful :)

SABRE

June 12th, 2007, 03:53 PM

if you have any evident of any PAF personnel flew or maintained Saudi Jet Fighters (other than the Lightning & probably Strikemasters) then please provide it in the RSAF thread and i'll be thankful :)

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit & an F-15 flying (supposetly by PAF pilot) ... but those pics were at my friends house (long time ago). The man who was in the cockpit is his uncle. He has flew F-15 (RSAF's) , F-16, MiG-29, UAE's Mirage2k9 & various other fighter aircrafts. I'll c if they are still available.

SaudiArabian

June 12th, 2007, 04:13 PM

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit

it will be good to provide them :) , but also please provide the date and what was the occupation of the PAF pilot (i expect him to be instructor)

& an F-15 flying (supposetly by PAF pilot)

:rolleyes: it isn't an evident

... but those pics were at my friends house (long time ago). The man who was in the cockpit is his uncle.

that could mean he is an instructor and the picture belongs to the early 80's when the F-15C's were delivered , please provide what was the event of the picture and why was he in the F-15 cockpit (training ? mission ? testing ?) , also please tell whats the version of the F-15 is it single seated (C version) or the twin seated (D version)

He has flew F-15 (RSAF's) , F-16, MiG-29, UAE's Mirage2k9 & various other fighter aircrafts. I'll c if they are still available.

how did he have training on both aircrafts ?? :confused:

the systems of the MIG-29 are so different than the F-15

one point i may forgot to mention earlier in the past reply. there are few Pakistani Military personnel serving in the Royal Saudi Naval Force.

Izzy1

June 12th, 2007, 05:16 PM

I did see a pictures of PAF pilots posing near the RSAF F-15, a PAF pilot in ful gear in the F-15 cockpit

I don't doubt it, but I would not read too much into it. It was almost certainly a secondment posting Sabre - as you know, PAF and RSAF have a very close relationship and short-term pilot exchange programmes are common. Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

The days of all-Pakistani crewed RSAF fighter squadrons are long over and went out with the Ligthning - and as Saudi Arabian says, that was prompted by emergency measures (Yemen Civil War).

Just to say by the way, whenever I am in Dhahran, I still get a gulp in my throat when I see the RSAF Lightning 'gate guard' mounted on display open-air there. Awesome.

DragonKing786

June 12th, 2007, 11:19 PM

Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

Sorry,. to bust your bubble, but that never happened, and I don't think it will happen. PAF since day 1 was able to maintain her AF and pilots.

eaf-f16

June 13th, 2007, 06:44 AM

Sorry,. to bust your bubble, but that never happened, and I don't think it will happen. PAF since day 1 was able to maintain her AF and pilots.

He didn't mean RSAF manning PAF F-16, I think he meant in training exercises with PAF F-16's and RSAF F-15's. Apparently Egypt dose that kind of stuff with SA every year so it wouldn't be unusual.

SABRE

June 13th, 2007, 06:50 AM

I don't doubt it, but I would not read too much into it. It was almost certainly a secondment posting Sabre - as you know, PAF and RSAF have a very close relationship and short-term pilot exchange programmes are common. Somewhere, there is probably a picture of an RSAF pilot sitting in a PAF F-16.

The days of all-Pakistani crewed RSAF fighter squadrons are long over and went out with the Ligthning - and as Saudi Arabian says, that was prompted by emergency measures (Yemen Civil War).

Just to say by the way, whenever I am in Dhahran, I still get a gulp in my throat when I see the RSAF Lightning 'gate guard' mounted on display open-air there. Awesome.

The picture was from 1980s & it is in PAF's charter to train its pilots on different aircrafts from friendly nations, especially on those aircrafts that are not in PAF inventory.

The PAF pilots in RSAF, as I mentioned before, returned to Pakistan long time ago. Some were sent to UAE & the top cream stayed home as PAF went into modernization phase.

eaf-f16

June 13th, 2007, 07:29 AM

We are starting to get off topic. The subject of the thread is what the best Arab Air Force. Of course seeing that I'm Egyptian I'm going to say that the EAF is the best, but recently I have seen how the RSAF could be the most powerful ,even when compared to the IAF. They no longer have PAF pilots ,although I'm still unsure if they have enough pilots to fly all of their planes.

Khairul Alam

June 13th, 2007, 02:18 PM

A Center for Strategic and Internation Studies (CSIS) report on the RSAF dated October 30, 2002 said the following about RSAF's readiness:

"Nevertheless, the overall warfighting capability of Saudi Air Force has deteriorated since the mid-1990s, and the RSAF now faces a crisis in readiness. Saudi Arabia has not been able to keep up with its force expansion, and even the lead elements in its F-15 force have lost readiness, reduced training standards, and experienced growing accident rates. Saudi Arabia now has only 0.9 aircrews and 0.5 ground crews per plane, something like one-third to two-thirds of its requirement for intense, “24-hour a day,” sustained combat against a major Iraqi invasion. Its pilots fly an average of 3.5-5 hours of training per month versus a NATO standard of 20. This is roughly the same number of flight hours as a low performance air force like Syria. Accident rates have been high, and at least nine fatal accidents – five in 1999-2000 – can be attributed to training and readiness problems. Proficiency levels have dropped from moderate to low, with particular problems in joint warfare and offensive missions."

Some may say this report is too old to be valid now but i think 4.5 years isnt an awfully long time. Besides i cudnt get any latest assessments. I wud only be too glad if anyone refuted these points.

SaudiArabian

June 13th, 2007, 02:38 PM

although I'm still unsure if they have enough pilots to fly all of their planes.

be sure that there is more than enough

A Center for Strategic and Internation Studies (CSIS) report on the RSAF dated October 30, 2002 said the following about RSAF's readiness:

"Nevertheless, the overall warfighting capability of Saudi Air Force has deteriorated since the mid-1990s, and the RSAF now faces a crisis in readiness. Saudi Arabia has not been able to keep up with its force expansion, and even the lead elements in its F-15 force have lost readiness, reduced training standards, and experienced growing accident rates. Saudi Arabia now has only 0.9 aircrews and 0.5 ground crews per plane, something like one-third to two-thirds of its requirement for intense, “24-hour a day,” sustained combat against a major Iraqi invasion. Its pilots fly an average of 3.5-5 hours of training per month versus a NATO standard of 20. This is roughly the same number of flight hours as a low performance air force like Syria. Accident rates have been high, and at least nine fatal accidents – five in 1999-2000 – can be attributed to training and readiness problems. Proficiency levels have dropped from moderate to low, with particular problems in joint warfare and offensive missions."

Some may say this report is too old to be valid now but i think 4.5 years isnt an awfully long time. Besides i cudnt get any latest assessments. I wud only be too glad if anyone refuted these points.

thats old

this is the latest one (been release on 28/7/2006) , you can download it from this page

http://www.csis.org/burke/mb/me/

and this is the direct link about the Saudi military

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060728_gulf_saudi.pdf

eaf-f16

June 13th, 2007, 05:26 PM

Did you know that MiG-25 was undergoing tests with Egyptian Air Force before it went into production or given the name MiG-25?

It arrived in Egypt 1971 and taken before the Yom Kippur War.

4 of them even had Egyptian markings and violated Israeli air space 20 times to perform reconnaissance missions with Israelis not shooting down a single one .We were on the verge of buying them and using them against Israel but the Soviets refused.

May I remind you that at the time the MiG-25 was equal to what the F-22 is now. Of course I'm not saying it's equal to the F-22 but when compared to the fighters of the time it was like it.We would have killed the Israeli Air Force.

Damn Shame!!!

Rich

June 13th, 2007, 06:30 PM

May I remind you that at the time the MiG-25 was equal to what the F-22 is now. Of course I'm not saying it's equal to the F-22 but when compared to the fighters of the time it was like it.We would have killed the Israeli Air Force.

How was it "equal to the F-22"? In what way? The MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for Gods sake.;)

The MIG-25 was one of the biggest boondoggles in aviation history. I remember when it was finally fielded, and Yank doctrine had changed to low level attack, and cruise missiles, the Russians had quite a surprise to find the MIG-25s radar was useless for anything flying under 2,000':onfloorl: They were frantic at the thought of big lumbering B-52s flying in at 200'.

The F-22 is not an interceptor it is a pure ATA fighter that can dominate and win air superiority against any other fighter. It is not only all aspect stealth its also highly manueverable. Best of all it can supercruise and unlike the MIG-25 we dont have to replace its engine every time it runs a little hot.

The Foxbat was a one dimensional aircraft designed to fight a one dimensional super-sonic bomber which we never built and deployed. I guess as a recce aircraft it had some value, and it sparkled as a "run away from the fight" airplane, [Not per the rules in an otherwise excellent post. Deleted]

Other attributes the Foxbat had. 1 It was built without transistor circuitry. 2, Its welding was done by hand, 3, Pilot vision was highly obstructed and rivet heads were exposed on the airframe, 4,The combat radius was 186 miles, 5, It was so heavy the Soviets had to remove the pilot ejection system, 6, The airplane was unable to intercept the SR-71 because it flew to high, to fast, 7, The MIG 25 was so unmaneuverable a F-4 could easily out-turn it. 8, The Foxbat was designed to climb fast, make on pass at an enemy, shoot its missiles when control told him to, and then go home.

It had nothing in common with the F-22, in fact you can call the Foxbat the exact opposite of the Raptor in design, doctrine, and capabilities.

Ive generally been more positive towards Russian aviation then many are here in the west. Not towards this aircraft however, which was greatly feared during my own in service days. As it turned out we wasted our time fearing the Foxbat. Being "so fast that no-one can catch you" is not a doctrine designed to win an air war, especially if what your doing is running away.

eaf-f16

June 13th, 2007, 07:10 PM

How was it "equal to the F-22"? In what way? The MIG-25 used vacuum tubes for Gods sake.;)

The MIG-25 was one of the biggest boondoggles in aviation history. I remember when it was finally fielded, and Yank doctrine had changed to low level attack, and cruise missiles, the Russians had quite a surprise to find the MIG-25s radar was useless for anything flying under 2,000':onfloorl: They were frantic at the thought of big lumbering B-52s flying in at 200'.

The F-22 is not an interceptor it is a pure ATA fighter that can dominate and win air superiority against any other fighter. It is not only all aspect stealth its also highly manueverable. Best of all it can supercruise and unlike the MIG-25 we dont have to replace its engine every time it runs a little hot.

The Foxbat was a one dimensional aircraft designed to fight a one dimensional super-sonic bomber which we never built and deployed. I guess as a recce aircraft it had some value, and it sparkled as a "run away from the fight" airplane, "which is why, no doubt, it appealed to the Arabs".

Other attributes the Foxbat had. 1 It was built without transistor circuitry. 2, Its welding was done by hand, 3, Pilot vision was highly obstructed and rivet heads were exposed on the airframe, 4,The combat radius was 186 miles, 5, It was so heavy the Soviets had to remove the pilot ejection system, 6, The airplane was unable to intercept the SR-71 because it flew to high, to fast, 7, The MIG 25 was so unmaneuverable a F-4 could easily out-turn it. 8, The Foxbat was designed to climb fast, make on pass at an enemy, shoot its missiles when control told him to, and then go home.

It had nothing in common with the F-22, in fact you can call the Foxbat the exact opposite of the Raptor in design, doctrine, and capabilities.

Ive generally been more positive towards Russian aviation then many are here in the west. Not towards this aircraft however, which was greatly feared during my own in service days. As it turned out we wasted our time fearing the Foxbat. Being "so fast that no-one can catch you" is not a doctrine designed to win an air war, especially if what your doing is running away.

You're clearly illiterate. After I stated specifically that I didn't mean that the MiG-25 was equal to the F-22 but the performance gap was as wide with the MiG-25 and fighters of the time as it is now with the F-22 and fighters of our time you still twist this and make it seem like i said the MiG-25 is equal to the F-22.

The MiG-25 with its powerful radar (thanks to vacum tubes) could shoot down the F-4 before the F-4's radar could even detect the MiG-25. It could have shot F-4's from a distance of over 300km away, so the pilot doesn't even need to have a frame-less cockpit or bubble canopy.

The MiG-25 didn't even need to maneuver because all a pilot had to do to evade missiles was to "hit the gas".

[Off topic, not very constructive to throw insults, please read the rules. Deleted]

And tell me if the F-4 is sooo much more superior to MiG-25 why were the Israelis unable to intercept it after it violated their airspace 20 times, even after they had intelligence telling them the route of the planes and when the flight were going to take place?

rabs

June 13th, 2007, 08:45 PM

Grand Danois

June 13th, 2007, 08:58 PM

Reopened.

Play nice.

eaf-f16

June 13th, 2007, 09:00 PM

Wasn't the kill ratio between Israeli phantoms and Arab Mig-25s very favorable towards the F4.

I personally feel that the Mig-25 was not really a generation leap as the F-22 is, and really proved no soviet superiority in any field of aerospace technology except for possibly deception.

Also I believe Rich's comments about Arabs running was testament to their less than spectacular air warfare doctrines. Not necessarily their courage which as has been proven time and time again is quite sizable.

You must have mistaken the MiG-25 for the MiG-21. The MiG-25 was never used by the Egyptian Air Force in air-air combat. 4 experimental prototypes of the MiG-25 were sent to the EAF for recon missions on Israel and returned to Russia after 2 years. The MiG-21 was the EAF's front line fighter at the time of the war.

They did however use it to spy on the Israelis and this scared the hell out of both the Americans (because it meant the MiG-25 was nearing production status) and the Israelis (because they thought the EAF was going to be the first air force in the world to receive such a fighter because they were the first to really use it).

After more than 20 violations of Israeli air force they were unable to intercept it (sometimes they didn't even wanna try) even after they had intelligence telling them the flight routes and the time of the flights.

The MiG-25 greatly out classed the F-4. In the Gulf War an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a USAF F-18 so you can forget about an Israeli F-4 shooting one down. It has "first sight- first shot- first kill" on the F-4 because of it's powerful radar.

metro

June 14th, 2007, 06:16 AM

You must have mistaken the MiG-25 for the MiG-21. The MiG-25 was never used by the Egyptian Air Force in air-air combat. 4 experimental prototypes of the MiG-25 were sent to the EAF for recon missions on Israel and returned to Russia after 2 years. The MiG-21 was the EAF's front line fighter at the time of the war.

They did however use it to spy on the Israelis and this scared the hell out of both the Americans (because it meant the MiG-25 was nearing production status) and the Israelis (because they thought the EAF was going to be the first air force in the world to receive such a fighter because they were the first to really use it).

After more than 20 violations of Israeli air force they were unable to intercept it (sometimes they didn't even wanna try) even after they had intelligence telling them the flight routes and the time of the flights.

The MiG-25 greatly out classed the F-4. In the Gulf War an Iraqi MiG-25 shot down a USAF F-18 so you can forget about an Israeli F-4 shooting one down. It has "first sight- first shot- first kill" on the F-4 because of it's powerful radar.

you're talking about '67 right?
I don't know about the MIG-25 flying over Israel 20 times, I'll leave in the hands of historians.
I do know that Israel getting the Iraqi to defect in his MIG-21 was huge for Israel (examinning it, mock doq-fights-etc...) and the US, as it was the first time we got to see the Russian technology in that plane. That has been marked as the point (by many) at which we started supporting Israel.

As to Rich's point, I don't think you (collective) can compare the F-22 Pele/MJ of all fighters ever (yes, i too would like to see it fight and the tactics involved to make it work as advertised) to the MIG-25 of it's ERA. It's almost like comparing any country's Aircrft Carrier of WWII (in it's era) to and american Aircraft carrier of today... As it was said, "If I had this Carrier for WWII, there would not have been a WWII." I just don't know that the MIG-25 Dominated anything in a way the F22 "Could."

Rich

June 14th, 2007, 06:41 AM

You're clearly illiterate. After I stated specifically that I didn't mean that the MiG-25 was equal to the F-22 but the performance gap was as wide with the MiG-25 and fighters of the time as it is now with the F-22 and fighters of our time you still twist this and make it seem like i said the MiG-25 is equal to the F-22.

Admin: Text deleted. You need to avoid getting personal. eaf-f16's comments were clearly beyond the pale and a clear blatant violation - but you haven't helped.

The F-22 is no faster then any other fighter, and since the Foxbat couldn't super-cruise, explain this "performance gap"?

The MiG-25 with its powerful radar (thanks to vacum tubes) could shoot down the F-4 before the F-4's radar could even detect the MiG-25. It could have shot F-4's from a distance of over 300km away, so the pilot doesn't even need to have a frame-less cockpit or bubble canopy.

The radar of the Foxbat had a range of 55 miles.http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html How does that translate to 300 kms? My benchmark is the 1976 MIG that Belenchko flew to Japan.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-25.htm
NATO had its first detailed look at the MiG-25 when a Soviet pilot defected to Japan with one in September 1976. This exposed its 1950s-era radar and other features that dispelled much of the mythology built up by some Western analysts since the first sighting of the 'Foxbat' in 1967.

And tell me if the F-4 is sooo much more superior to MiG-25 why were the Israelis unable to intercept it after it violated their airspace 20 times, even after they had intelligence telling them the route of the planes and when the flight were going to take place?

I never said the F-4 was "superior". I said it could easily out-turn a Foxbat. And if the MIG-25 is so "superior" then why did the Arabs get slaughtered by the IAF in every air conflict they ever had?

You dont win wars by over-flying an enemy at mach 2.5. You win wars by destroying an enemies air force. A task the MIG-25 was clearly not up to, nor was it up to CAS. It was strictly a one dimensional airplane.

eaf-f16

June 14th, 2007, 07:49 AM

And your clearly an idiot. The F-22 is no faster then any other fighter, and since the Foxbat couldn't super-cruise, explain this "performance gap"?

The radar of the Foxbat had a range of 55 miles.http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/mig25.html How does that translate to 300 kms? My benchmark is the 1976 MIG that Belenchko flew to Japan.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-25.htm

I never said the F-4 was "superior". I said it could easily out-turn a Foxbat. And if the MIG-25 is so "superior" then why did the Arabs get slaughtered by the IAF in every air conflict they ever had?

You dont win wars by over-flying an enemy at mach 2.5. You win wars by destroying an enemies air force. A task the MIG-25 was clearly not up to, nor was it up to CAS. It was strictly a one dimensional airplane.

Becuase the Arabs only used it when the F-15 came along which is infinitly better than the MiG-25. If they used it in Yom Kippur war they would have removed Israel.

Admin text deleted. learn the rules before posting again. you've just earnt yourself a one week ban

SaudiArabian

June 14th, 2007, 08:29 AM

i came over this sad news lately

Algerian military plane crashes

2007-06-13

An Algerian Mig-29 military plane belonging to the country's air force crashed Monday in Oran, western Algeria, the local press reported Tuesday.

Before the plane crashed, the pilot tried as much as possible to fly the plane away from inhabited areas, thus avoiding possible loss of human life, according to the Oran Daily, which added that the pilot himself escaped unhurt from the accident after ejecting successfully and on time.

The plane crashed in a wheat farm burning all the surrounding vegetation before the fire was finally brought under control by rescue teams, according to the same source.

The causes of the accident are not yet known.

People's Daily Online (http://english.people.com.cn/200706/13/eng20070613_383508.html)

:(

Rich

June 14th, 2007, 07:31 PM

Admin: Text deleted. You need to avoid getting personal. eaf-f16's comments were clearly beyond the pale and a clear blatant violation - but you haven't helped.

My apologies to the group. From now on I will simply ignore, or put on ignore, someone who insults me as this guy did. I'll let the Mods deal with it.

gf0012-aust

June 14th, 2007, 11:34 PM

Thanks.

gf

My apologies to the group. From now on I will simply ignore, or put on ignore, someone who insults me as this guy did. I'll let the Mods deal with it.

eaf-f16

June 22nd, 2007, 02:50 PM

Thanks.

gf

He called me an idiot and didn't get a ban.

yess

June 22nd, 2007, 04:41 PM

yess

June 22nd, 2007, 04:43 PM

He called me an idiot and didn't get a ban.

we all know how some people can be treated unfairly by some one;)

Grand Danois

June 22nd, 2007, 07:50 PM

we all know how some people can be treated unfairly by some one;)

Here is the process. I edited two posts, one of which contained potential flame bait and a second with a patently obscene insult.

Expecting the posters to take the hint I didn't attach a warning to the edit, and notified the other mods to keep an eye on it.

Next, Rich posted the "idiot" post in response to eaf-f16's insult..

eaf-f16 then persisted in posting another post with an obscene insult, way beyond what is allowed.

Later GF skimmed the thread, being in transit in an airport, he only caught the obscene insult, which earned eaf-f16 the ban.

Later again, I read the thread and called attention to the "idiot" post. Before we came down with a decision, Rich posted his apology. This made us not to take further action on the topic.

Case closed and no further discussion on this issue will be tolerated.

Izzy1

June 23rd, 2007, 02:31 AM

metro

June 23rd, 2007, 07:18 AM

Some interesting developments in regards to the Syrian Air Force and potential Iranian acquisitions.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/06/syria-buying-mig31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php#more

Yeah, I read something very similar on worldtribune.com

It's getting a little "scary," as I saw that MI-6 broke up a plot where an Iranian front company, operating in Britain, was actually able to buy weapons grade uranium from the "black market" in Russia. The article said that MI-6 foiled the plot before it was sent to the Sudan and then onto Iran. Craziness!

yess

June 23rd, 2007, 08:16 AM

Yeah, I read something very similar on worldtribune.com

It's getting a little "scary," as I saw that MI-6 broke up a plot where an Iranian front company, operating in Britain, was actually able to buy weapons grade uranium from the "black market" in Russia. The article said that MI-6 foiled the plot before it was sent to the Sudan and then onto Iran. Craziness!

but lets stay to the air force topic rather then slowly drifting towards off topic.

metro

June 23rd, 2007, 10:57 AM

but lets stay to the air force topic rather then slowly drifting towards off topic.

yep, you're right!;)

Izzy1

June 23rd, 2007, 12:35 PM

In regards to Syria, they desperately need new fast jets - their last new-build fighters were Mig-29 Fulcrum As and Mig-29UBs delivered in 1987. Further Mig-29 procurements since then have been second-hand models after a potential deal for the Su-27 fell through due to lack of funds.

yess

June 23rd, 2007, 12:53 PM

i would recommend middle estern countries to come up with a plan of like one country spends all of their defense budget on only air force while the other army and the 3rd one on navy! :nutkick

eaf-f16

June 24th, 2007, 08:46 AM

at the end of the day Israel air force is still the best air force in middle east this is due to and they are not in order.
1. 24/7 full alert
2. better intelligence as proven in 6 day war.
3. better training
4. better aircraft/ Surveillance systems
5. better strategy
5. and full time american support with unlimited amo!lol:onfloorl:

next RSA/UAE
hopefully every thing tilts towards the RSA and UAE's favor.
with the purchase of some 80 EF-2000 the RSA should have technological advantage over IAF new f-16s and F-35 but with only if RSA buys some anti stealth radars such as czech and russian radars.
and is it possible to data link anti stealth radar with other sours?
the only customers for new F-16 block 60 and if not better but equivalent to IAF new f-16.
and i dont get one thing.. why is UAE's F-16 cost higher then IAF purposed 100 F-35?? the UAE is buying only 80 at the cost of 6.5$ billion where as IAF 100 f-35 for 5 billion?:unknown

then comes the Palestine air force:D

UAE is second best? Out of the 20 something F-16 they received I think only 3 are piloted by Emeratis the rest Egyptian and Pakistani pilots. Again this is a case of good equipment but no staff to operate them and EVERY Mirage 2000-9 the UAE has is in STORAGE because they don't have enough pilots.

The rankings for Arab air forces is, in my opinion:

1.RSAF (if they have enough pilots to fly EVERYTHING they have if not then they switch places with number 2)

2.EAF

3.RJAF (small number of F-16's but all of which are manned wth Jordanians only)

4.UAE-AF (nothing compared to the first 2 AF's if they don't have ALL planes manned and with Emeratis ONLY!)

5.KAF (as above; good amount of F-18's; pilots shortage)

Izzy1

June 24th, 2007, 09:49 AM

Just out of interest, why do they have to have pilots from their own nations? I'm sure a USAF F-16 fighter pilot can perform just as well in a Jordanian F-16 when on secondment. Indeed, dare I say it - if not better?

From what I have seen of the Block 60s, the UAEAF isn't exactly suffering with their foreign-sourced crews either. Do you have any information in regards to the Mirage storage?

contedicavour

June 24th, 2007, 02:33 PM

Some interesting developments in regards to the Syrian Air Force and potential Iranian acquisitions.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2007/06/syria-buying-mig31s-mig35s-for-1-billion/index.php#more

I don't understand what interest Syria could have in MIG31, sort of updated MIG25s which are useless for air to air combat with modern F15s and F16s. Besides I'm not even sure MIG31s carry AA12 BVR missiles. Without those, Amraam-C equipped fighters can easily shoot them down.
Why not just concentrate on MIG29SMT (I wasn't aware that modernized MIG29s were also called MIG35s by the way - unless the journalist was inaccurate ?)

cheers

eaf-f16

June 24th, 2007, 02:43 PM

gf0012-aust

June 25th, 2007, 09:11 PM

I don't understand what interest Syria could have in MIG31, sort of updated MIG25s which are useless for air to air combat with modern F15s and F16s. Besides I'm not even sure MIG31s carry AA12 BVR missiles. Without those, Amraam-C equipped fighters can easily shoot them down.
Why not just concentrate on MIG29SMT (I wasn't aware that modernized MIG29s were also called MIG35s by the way - unless the journalist was inaccurate ?)

cheers

The original article was from the russian military journalist Pavel Felgenhauer

The strange story of MiG-31s for Syria
By Pavel Felgenhauer

Moscow's respected business daily Kommersant reported that Russia's arms-trading monopoly Rosoboronexport has begun to fulfill an arms deal it secretly signed with Syria this year to sell five MiG-31E jet fighters, considered among the best in the world, and an additional unspecified number of the newest MiG-29M/M2 fighter-bombers.

The paper reported the total price to be about US$1 billion. MiG-31s were produced at the Sokol aviation factory in Nizhniy

Novgorod from 1981-94 (some 500 planes overall). Since production has been terminated, Syria, according to Kommersant, will get the jets from the Russian Defense Ministry stockpile after a refurbishing at Sokol.

Kommersant suggested that Iran is partially or even fully covering the purchase bill, and that the jets may partially or fully end up as part of the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force. Commenting on the Kommersant report, Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamiynin last week told reporters, "All Russian arms deals comply with international law and Russia's obligations under international treaties and UN Security Council resolutions."

This vague statement was widely taken as indirect conformation of the Kommersant story, but it later turned out not to be the case. By last Tuesday evening, Rosoboronexport head Sergei Chemizov, speaking in Paris at Le Bourget Air Show, had denied the existence of any jet fighter deal with Syria.

This is not the first time Kommersant has published a page 1 "scoop" on breaking arms-trade news that later turned out to be not fully accurate. Last month it reported that Libya and Russia were close to finalizing a $2.2 billion arms deal. Neither Moscow nor Tripoli confirmed the report.

This month Kommersant reported that Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez might buy nine Russian submarines, reportedly worth $2 billion, when he visits Moscow in June to meet President Vladimir Putin. This deal seemed fishy from the start, since it clearly exceeded the present capacity of Russian shipbuilders to make new subs and the Venezuelan navy's capacity to run so many new ships.

Kommersant reported that Venezuela had chosen Russian subs over others offered by Germany and France, which also sounded odd, because Russian conventional attack subs, including the latest models, are outdated and significantly inferior to German and French ones. Venezuelan Defense Minister Raul Isaias Baduel promptly denied that his government was planning to buy submarines from Russia.

Kommersant claims the MiG-29M/M2 is more or less the same jet Russia is peddling to India as the MiG-35. The MiG-35 is still only a flying prototype - not a real fighter - and the Russian Air Force does not have any such planes. If India chooses a European or US fighter instead, the MiG-35 as well as the MiG-29M/M2 may never enter serial production.

The MiG-31, in turn, is a real fighting jet. Russia today has some 280 MiG-31s. Before delivering the aircraft to buyers, arms traders and producers first remove secret Russian military equipment. Then the jets are repainted and sold as "modernized" for high prices, creating sky-high profits that do not seem to ever reach state coffers.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Moscow has been trying to sell the MiG-31. The plane has been displayed at air shows, but no customers have come forward. The MiG-31 is a highly specialized jet - not a fighter per se, but an interceptor specifically designed to kill long-range US cruise missiles. The MiG-31 is a bulky two-seater that can carry up to eight air-to-air guided missiles with a range of up to 120 kilometers.

The MiG-31 can fly supersonic near the Earth's surface as well as high up. It is a purely defensive fighter, designed to be used over friendly territory to defend against massive air assaults. The MiG-31 has sophisticated and powerful radar that can track 24 different targets simultaneously and exchange information with other MiG-31s and ground control centers.

Any country that is seriously preparing to meet the US military on the battlefield, as Iran seems to be, would want to have such a jet to meet an air assault complemented with hundreds or thousands of cruise missiles, as happened in 1999 in Yugoslavia and in 1991 and 2003 in Iraq. Syria could also want several such jets, if Washington were to decide to attack, say, terrorist-connected targets on its territory. The MiG-31 deal with Syria, as reported by Kommersant, seems more plausible than stories about, say, nine subs for Venezuela.

Chemizov has denied the MiG-31 contract, but Kamiynin was deliberately noncommittal. Kommersant may have received confidential information about the possible deal and the leak could have been deliberate. The arms-trade stories Kommersant has been printing may be tests of Western (US) reactions, to see what would happen if imaginary arms contracts suddenly turned out to be real.

These leaks also may be a signal to the West to understand what woe to expect if the Russo-US summit this coming weekend in Maine goes awry.

*ttp://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IF26Ak05.html

T-95

June 27th, 2007, 09:03 PM

Egypt stopped evaluating the MiG-29 in May and is in the process of negotiating a contract with the Russians and I think the Saudis signed the contract for the British front line fighter ,the Typhoon, at the Paris Air Show. Has the US got any new contracts from Arab countries that are as big as the Russian and British deals or are they just not concerned about arms deals with ME's countries anymore? Dose this mean a policy change from both sides or am I just reading too much in this?

Izzy1

June 29th, 2007, 08:36 AM

Has the US got any new contracts from Arab countries that are as big as the Russian and British deals or are they just not concerned about arms deals with ME's countries anymore? Dose this mean a policy change from both sides or am I just reading too much in this?

The US has offered a very large deal that would effectively double the size of the RSAF and is believed to involve F-15S and F-16 Block 60. The stumbling block is apparently the ITAR and technology access issue. Any deal will also involve greater industrial offsets to Saudi - something that will take time to negotiate and agree. Unlike in the past, the Saudi Government is now keen to see such offsets - the latest General Dynamics Abrahms and BAE Typhoon deals being cases in point.

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 09:27 AM

The US has offered a very large deal that would effectively double the size of the RSAF and is believed to involve F-15S and F-16 Block 60. The stumbling block is apparently the ITAR and technology access issue. Any deal will also involve greater industrial offsets to Saudi - something that will take time to negotiate and agree. Unlike in the past, the Saudi Government is now keen to see such offsets - the latest General Dynamics Abrahms and BAE Typhoon deals being cases in point.

Th F-16 Block 60/62 deal got rejected in the early stages of the UAE contract didn't it? If the Saudis even buy 100 of those (and they were planing something like 150) they would be more than match to the Israel's 300 lower quality F-16's (not mention the chances of SA just joining an Arab coalition that would include the likes of Egypt and such). The Americans rejected because of these reasons and the Israel's armed forces are equipped to deal with a whole coalition of Arab states plus the addition of Iran and possibly Pakistan so an arms offer to Saudi must be matched with an even larger offer to the Israeli's which would cost the US HUGE amounts of money because they pay for any major US arms purchases made by the Israeli's. So why not just save money and not offer anything at all and keep the balance of power in the region the same? This I believe is the logic of the Americans.

Please provide a link to the offer if you can find it. Thanks.

Izzy1

June 29th, 2007, 11:56 AM

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 12:04 PM

UAE is second best? Out of the 20 something F-16 they received I think only 3 are piloted by Emeratis the rest Egyptian and Pakistani pilots. Again this is a case of good equipment but no staff to operate them and EVERY Mirage 2000-9 the UAE has is in STORAGE because they don't have enough pilots.

The rankings for Arab air forces is, in my opinion:

1.RSAF (if they have enough pilots to fly EVERYTHING they have if not then they switch places with number 2)

2.EAF

3.RJAF (small number of F-16's but all of which are manned wth Jordanians only)

4.UAE-AF (nothing compared to the first 2 AF's if they don't have ALL planes manned and with Emeratis ONLY!)

5.KAF (as above; good amount of F-18's; pilots shortage)

Why is Jordan above the UAE-AF??? The UAE-AF might not be as good as the EAF or RSAF but they are pretty high up there and the gap between the UAE and the EAF and the RSAF is small. Plus didn't they just make a request for their pilots to have training in the US. If the deal is approved would the UAE be better than the EAF in terms of readiness.

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 12:13 PM

http://www.debka.com/article.php?font_size=big&aid=1273

This article actually mentions F-16C/D but talk here is that it is Block 60. It also mentions Raptor - lets set the record straight on that one right now. The F-22 is a very long way away for Saudi - if ever. I think that can be put down to bad journalism!

As I have said before on another thread, F-16 would in my opinion be a doubtful choice for the RSAF. Current doctrine favours twin-engine jets, the last single engine fighter in RSAF service was the F-86 Sabre. However, I have little doubt that the F-35 will eventually be procurred by Saudi in time, so who knows.

Your right in underlining any Israeli fears about Block 60, but as we have seen with the UAE, the US will restrict what weapons it can carry. The UAE can not operate for example its Black Shaheen/Storm Shadows on their F-16s, the US refused to integrate them. I'm sure the same restrictions would apply to Riyadh and thus instantly degrades the capabilities of the aircraft. I'm also sure the usual basing restrictions would apply, but just speculating - isn't the F-15S already more capable than the F-16 Block 60? Surely they are what the IDF would counter the most as opposed to Block 60.

I doubt the Saudis will buy the F-35. Egypt and Jordan probably because of their relations with Israel. In "the F-22 export study" it said the Saudis are possible candidates for the F-22 along with Australia, Japan and Israel. It's a likely that 15 to 20 years from now the will be available for export to the nations mentioned above because America can only afforded 183 F-22's and Russia is planning more than 1000 PAK-FA's. I find it pretty likely that they will eventually be available for export even though some people disagree.

Izzy1

June 29th, 2007, 01:32 PM

15 to 20 years from now the will be available ...

Maybe, as I said its a very long way off, certainly not before the IDF ever get it and even then, it will no doubt be a downgraded model.

F-35 is almost a certainty for the RSAF in my opinion, the lobbying from Lockheed and BAE will be immense for one. RSAF by 2020 will be looking at replacements for their Tornado and F-15C/D fleets. Typhoon should be able to cover these roles, Prince Sultan has alredy expressed his view that the eventual deal could be for as many 200. But I doubt RSAF will want to rely on just one platform and F-35 is probably the most realistic and capable option available.

In the meantime, I anticipate some news soon in regards a new advanced trainer to begin replacing the Hawk T.60s. T.120 series Hawk is probably a cert here as part of the Typhoon package. RSAF will also watch with interest the delivery of the PC-21 turboprop to the UAEAF, Riyadh's PC-9s are very heavily tasked. Finally, its almost certain now Saudi signed deals with Eurocopter and Airbus at last week's Paris Air Show, I believe this will involve over 150 helicopters (including Tiger) and at least 2 A330 MRTTs.

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 04:43 PM

Maybe, as I said its a very long way off, certainly not before the IDF ever get it and even then, it will no doubt be a downgraded model.

F-35 is almost a certainty for the RSAF in my opinion, the lobbying from Lockheed and BAE will be immense for one. RSAF by 2020 will be looking at replacements for their Tornado and F-15C/D fleets. Typhoon should be able to cover these roles, Prince Sultan has alredy expressed his view that the eventual deal could be for as many 200. But I doubt RSAF will want to rely on just one platform and F-35 is probably the most realistic and capable option available.

In the meantime, I anticipate some news soon in regards a new advanced trainer to begin replacing the Hawk T.60s. T.120 series Hawk is probably a cert here as part of the Typhoon package. RSAF will also watch with interest the delivery of the PC-21 turboprop to the UAEAF, Riyadh's PC-9s are very heavily tasked. Finally, its almost certain now Saudi signed deals with Eurocopter and Airbus at last week's Paris Air Show, I believe this will involve over 150 helicopters (including Tiger) and at least 2 A330 MRTTs.

Sure but the RSAF will look for more capable aircraft than the F-35 and Israel officially said it has intentions to buy 24 F-22's (I have no idea where they plan to get the money, USAID of course). The RSAF cannot and should not replace platform like the F-15 with the F-35, they are used for completely different roles. When I first heard of the Typhoon deal I thought it was a replacement for the F-15 but then I read that they were meant to replace the Tornado. Maybe they will buy the F-35 to use as an air-ground platform with the Eurofighter Typhoon as their new air superiority fighter. The ME air forces that in my eyes seem to be almost certainly headed for the F-35 are the RJAF, the EAF, the TuAF and the IAF and possibly the UAE-AF or any other heavy F-16 users. And possible candidates for the F-22 should be heavy F-15 users and with all the financial troubles the US should look to sell the F-22 to the RSAF and Japanese Air Force first (as they have the money to buy the largest amount) but should also give the IAF the small number of F-22's they asked for. We could possible have the same thing that happened with F-15 being in service with the RSAF and the IAF. The RSAF could possibly maintain 100 or so with IAF buying a smaller number.

swerve

June 29th, 2007, 04:48 PM

...When I first heard of the Typhoon deal I thought it was a replacement for the F-15 but then I read that they were meant to replace the Tornado. ....

The first 24 Typhoons are to replace the Tornado ADV, i.e. the interceptors. Not sure about the rest, but the Tornado IDS (ground attack) are being modernised & having new weapons integrated, so they aren't going to be retired soon.

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 04:56 PM

Izzy1

June 29th, 2007, 06:07 PM

The first 24 Typhoons are to replace the Tornado ADV, i.e. the interceptors. Not sure about the rest, but the Tornado IDS (ground attack) are being modernised & having new weapons integrated, so they aren't going to be retired soon.

TSP, Tornado Sustainment Program will keep 11 Wings Tornado IDS operating till 2020. Storm Shadow, Brimstone and ASRAAM will come as part of the deal. More importantly, the vast majority of the refurb work will soon be handled in-Kingdom.

Are the Saudis going to make a follow up deal with 72 Typhoons????

Prince Sultan has been quoted in the Arab News as stating there is a need for as many as 200 Typhoons. I will search for a link. In the meantime, some info in regards the Typhoon program from Saudi's leading english-newspaper.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=15&section=0&article=89606&d=6&m=12&y=2006

T-95

June 29th, 2007, 08:09 PM

TSP, Tornado Sustainment Program will keep 11 Wings Tornado IDS operating till 2020. Storm Shadow, Brimstone and ASRAAM will come as part of the deal. More importantly, the vast majority of the refurb work will soon be handled in-Kingdom.

Prince Sultan has been quoted in the Arab News as stating there is a need for as many as 200 Typhoons. I will search for a link. In the meantime, some info in regards the Typhoon program from Saudi's leading english-newspaper.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=15&section=0&article=89606&d=6&m=12&y=2006

No wonder the Israelis want to buy F-22's, the Egyptians are slowly being replaced as the most powerful Arab army. But they are buying Tor M-1, Buk M-1 and MiG-29's from Russia and probably the F-35 sometime in the future but as far as being "the leader of the Arab world" :rolleyes: I think it's time for someone else to take the throne as the Egyptians don't do anything major with it.

T-95

June 30th, 2007, 04:25 PM

Dose the Algerian Su-30 MKA have TVC engines???

Izzy1

July 1st, 2007, 02:16 AM

Dose the Algerian Su-30 MKA have TVC engines???

According to Jane's 'All the World's Aircraft', the Su-30 MKA is broadly similar to the Su-30 MKI but without the Israeli-sourced components. Thus, I guess the MKA does have AL-37FP engines with single-axis thrust-vectoring.

T-95

July 1st, 2007, 01:41 PM

According to Jane's 'All the World's Aircraft', the Su-30 MKA is broadly similar to the Su-30 MKI but without the Israeli-sourced components. Thus, I guess the MKA does have AL-37FP engines with single-axis thrust-vectoring.

But they do have western sourced displays, HMS and avionics right(I think from Thales)?

The Israeli sourced components are basically a result of American tech transfers with the biggest example being the Israeli targeting pod on the MKI. I think the only true innovation are in Israeli HMS's(and there are European equivalents) and short range missiles(also has European equivalents). F-16I is not an upgrade from a 52+ F-16 if anything it's a downgrade.

Izzy1

July 2nd, 2007, 03:41 AM

metro

July 3rd, 2007, 03:15 AM

But they do have western sourced displays, HMS and avionics right(I think from Thales)?

The Israeli sourced components are basically a result of American tech transfers with the biggest example being the Israeli targeting pod on the MKI. I think the only true innovation are in Israeli HMS's(and there are European equivalents) and short range missiles(also has European equivalents). F-16I is not an upgrade from a 52+ F-16 if anything it's a downgrade.

How do you figure that the F-16I is a downgrade from the block 52+ (putting the skill of those flying the planes aside)? Israel has put their own systems (which they feel are better suited to their needs--in many ways) in the F-16I which integrate with all their other weapon systems.
The targeting pod on the MK1 as well as the HMSs used, are not the exact same technology used on/in Israeli aircraft.

e.g. the JSF will not have the same "stealth" technology as the F-22.

Sansei442/100

July 3rd, 2007, 04:24 AM

I agree with you totally.

If I was the IAF and my big bro (the US) had just decided to sell the fighter that made up most of my fleet to the Egyptians down the coast I'd be pretty pissed off-after all, the decadent pyramid builders are the only ones to have participated in all the wars Israel has been involved in up to 1973 and the only ones that have managed to catch the Israeli Armed Forces off guard during Yom Kippur in 1973. A natural response would be to customise and design my own superior equipment which the Egyptians don't have.

The F-16I in question has classifed Elta or IMI defense suites which are second to none and better than anything the Arabs have-even India decided to purchase Elta EW suites for their Su-30MKI given the large RCS which would be a liabilty in dogfights. The F-16I is customised for special strike and features AMRAAM capability as well as the Derby and Python 5 missile-currently the only missile to acheive a 90 degree offboresight capability-far better than the AIM-9X (in fact the USAF bought 20 Python 5) or any comparable EU short range AAM including IRIS-T and ASRAAM if you compare publicy available stats. Other goodies are classified but I can tell you that since the IAF depends on preemptive stirkes to offset Arab numbers they require only the best aircraft-and if the F-1652+ was really better than they would have bought 102 52+ instead of 102 F-16I.
In contrast, the Egyptian F-16 B40s only have Aim-9 and Aim-7 AAMs as their armarant.

metro

July 3rd, 2007, 06:07 AM

Sansei442- who are you agreeing with?

No wonder the Israelis want to buy F-22's, the Egyptians are slowly being replaced as the most powerful Arab army. But they are buying Tor M-1, Buk M-1 and MiG-29's from Russia and probably the F-35 sometime in the future but as far as being "the leader of the Arab world" :rolleyes: I think it's time for someone else to take the throne as the Egyptians don't do anything major with it.

-I doubt the F-35 will go to egypt. It would be a gift to Russia.:rolleyes:

-I don't know what they mean, but strange statements came out after Olmert met with Bush and the USAF held exercises with the IAF in the Negev about the US and Israel sharing any and all information on new technology, developments, equipment, purchases, sales, etc...

Something slightly similar (statement) has come out of Japan.

IMO, the US is moving Africom from Germany to probably Morocco (I posted a link a couple weeks ago). This doesn't hurt Europe (European opinion?), but provides the US with not only bases directly in Africa (next to oil), but is an added counterweight to Iran on the other side of the ME. Allows quicker strikes in Africa and strengthens Israel by our placement. Israel still acts as a forward base for us and permits us to enter Gaza/Lebanon/Syria... (out of those talks, I wouldn't be surprised to see, PERHAPS, Israel, Japan, and maybe Australia get permission to buy the F-22) except moving equipment around doesn't require the eye's of several other countries.:unknown

The US is definitely worried about the weapons we've sold Egypt, and the stability of the country--namely succession (also linked this a couple of weeks ago... i can look for it if people want).

metro

July 3rd, 2007, 06:34 AM

Sure but the RSAF will look for more capable aircraft than the F-35 and Israel officially said it has intentions to buy 24 F-22's (I have no idea where they plan to get the money, USAID of course). The RSAF cannot and should not replace platform like the F-15 with the F-35, they are used for completely different roles. When I first heard of the Typhoon deal I thought it was a replacement for the F-15 but then I read that they were meant to replace the Tornado. Maybe they will buy the F-35 to use as an air-ground platform with the Eurofighter Typhoon as their new air superiority fighter. The ME air forces that in my eyes seem to be almost certainly headed for the F-35 are the RJAF, the EAF, the TuAF and the IAF and possibly the UAE-AF or any other heavy F-16 users. And possible candidates for the F-22 should be heavy F-15 users and with all the financial troubles the US should look to sell the F-22 to the RSAF and Japanese Air Force first (as they have the money to buy the largest amount) but should also give the IAF the small number of F-22's they asked for. We could possible have the same thing that happened with F-15 being in service with the RSAF and the IAF. The RSAF could possibly maintain 100 or so with IAF buying a smaller number.

Sorry, I read page 4 before seeing your post here:(

The US is looking to offset production costs of the F-22 by doing a couple things: keep buying american (down-priced F16s, F15s) and the F-35 is a far closer option than the F-22. Buying foreign front line fighters, will open permission for "sales" to Israel right away for the F-22.

The F-35 will make good money on it's own (despite it's setbacks), and down the road, probably be the "F-16" of today.

The Defense Industry is a business.

T-95

July 3rd, 2007, 08:58 AM

Sansei442- who are you agreeing with?

-I doubt the F-35 will go to egypt. It would be a gift to Russia.:rolleyes:

-I don't know what they mean, but strange statements came out after Olmert met with Bush and the USAF held exercises with the IAF in the Negev about the US and Israel sharing any and all information on new technology, developments, equipment, purchases, sales, etc...

Something slightly similar (statement) has come out of Japan.

IMO, the US is moving Africom from Germany to probably Morocco (I posted a link a couple weeks ago). This doesn't hurt Europe (European opinion?), but provides the US with not only bases directly in Africa (next to oil), but is an added counterweight to Iran on the other side of the ME. Allows quicker strikes in Africa and strengthens Israel by our placement. Israel still acts as a forward base for us and permits us to enter Gaza/Lebanon/Syria... (out of those talks, I wouldn't be surprised to see, PERHAPS, Israel, Japan, and maybe Australia get permission to buy the F-22) except moving equipment around doesn't require the eye's of several other countries.:unknown

The US is definitely worried about the weapons we've sold Egypt, and the stability of the country--namely succession (also linked this a couple of weeks ago... i can look for it if people want).

Why would it be a gift to the Russians?!?!?! Have we even let them any where NEAR our F-16's before??? The Israelis on the other hand let the Chinese do what ever they want with Block50/52 F-16's for their J-10.

Sorry, I read page 4 before seeing your post here:(

The US is looking to offset production costs of the F-22 by doing a couple things: keep buying american (down-priced F16s, F15s) and the F-35 is a far closer option than the F-22. Buying foreign front line fighters, will open permission for "sales" to Israel right away for the F-22.

The F-35 will make good money on it's own (despite it's setbacks), and down the road, probably be the "F-16" of today.

The Defense Industry is a business.

I doubt any one will keep buying the F-16's and F-15's after the current outstanding orders are delivered. The F-16's production line is closing at the end of 2008 when Israel gets it's F-16I's and UAE/AF(I think) gets their Block 60/62's. The F-15's production line closes when all outstanding orders are delivered. So I doubt Egypt would buy any more F-16's and would probably go for the F-35. If not there is always Russia.