Eurofighter Typhoon's First flight with caesar AESA Radar

[jaffo4011]

hopefully,this will keep the f18 s.h geeks quiet for a while.....will this be the most advanced radar in existance in a next gen fighter or are there any developments in the pipeline for the us aesa?


MANCHING, Germany: With the successful first flight of an E-Scan radar on board a Eurofighter aircraft at EADS Defence & Security's (DS) Military Air Systems Flight Test Centre in Manching/Germany, new capabilities of next-generation radar as well as the feasibility of its insertion into the Eurofighter weapon system have been demonstrated.

Eurofighter Development Aircraft 5 made the first flight with the CAESAR (CAPTOR Active Electronically Scanning Array Radar) demonstrator system.

CAESAR is based on the CAPTOR radar developed by the EuroRadar consortium which is in service on Eurofighter production aircraft. The consortium comprises the European radar system companies EADS (Germany), SELEX Sensors and Airborne Systems (UK), Galileo Avionica (Italy) and INDRA (Spain).

The new generation of radar introduces Active Electronically Scanning Array (AESA) technology which replaces mechanically steered antennas and high-power transmitters with an electronically steered array on the basis of transmit/receive modules. This array is made up of more than 1,000 transmit/receive modules which give the radar unprecedented versatility and reliability. This enables new mission capabilities for combat aircraft such as simultaneous radar functionalities, air surveillance, air-to-ground and weapon control.

[Falstaff]

Under a demonstration programme funded by the German Ministry of Defence, CAESAR was integrated on the Eurofighter Development Aircraft by Military Air Systems in less than a year's time from initial contract award – including avionics ground rig testing, extensive analysis and clearance work. These efforts also involved Eurofighter Partner Companies and German National Airworthiness Authorities.

YES! We paid for it! Go Germany, go!

More info:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/First_Test_Flight_of_E-Scan_Radar_System_Aboard_Eurofighter100011799.php

Please Use other/alternative links to the article when possible instead of directing users to go through extra steps. - Thanks

will this be the most advanced radar in existance in a next gen fighter or are there any developments in the pipeline for the us aesa?

It hurts to say that but nothing is said about operational deployment yet. Perhaps with the 3. tranche? However, we're some years behind, the US have already deployed quite a few AESA fighter radars.

[BKNO]

From Air&Cosmos...
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1552&stc=1&d=1178893944
US DoD is into GaN (As is DGA BTW) and DARPA/Raython simulated 80.000 h/9years of exploitation of GaN integrated circuits recently.

The contract is for $100 m and was launched in 2003 for developement of Band X GaN T/R modules (at <> the same time than DGA own GaN program)...

These European (or US for that matter) Last generation Band X radars based on GaAs TRs are born-dead in the mid-term but it is a start as well as a risk-redution measure to go ahead with these new GaAs radars...

Falstaff It hurts to say that but nothing is said about operational deployment yet. Perhaps with the 3. tranche?

I dont think you should be in such a hurry, Eurofighter have got a LOT of upgrading to do due to the large number of aircraft which will be in service when this radar is made available.

If the european GaN technology is mature enough at the time, it promesses to outperform GaAs based radar by a factor of up to 10 X.

So i personally think that this is also (!) a PR exercise aimed at securing the funding for the next tranches as well as further developement which up to now was done by the industrials in collaboration with other European countries... GaAs is ont its way OUT.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7566/cshig20106dr0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Falstaff]

I dont think you should be in such a hurry, Eurofighter have got a LOT of upgrading to do due to the large number of aircraft which will be in service when this radar is made available.


The intriguing thing about the CAESAR antenna is that it can be retrofitted to earlier aircraft without too much difficulties.

From today's Eurofighter press release:
The new antenna emphasises and demonstrates the policy of continuous capability enhancement in the Eurofighter programme, and production embodiment of this feature could be available for Tranche 3 or as a retrofit in Tranche 2 aircraft. While maintaining the excellent performance features of the CAPTOR radar, the new antenna provides a significant reduction in operating costs as well as certain performance enhancements, and can be readily fitted as a replacement for the current antenna with no significant aircraft modification.

This represents the industry viewpoint.
I think this AESA antenna is a very important step actually as it shows where the Eurofighter will go. There has to be a consistent development plan and rumor goes that the participating nations are about to elaborate a 30 year plan for upgrades and further development.

See this DefenseNews-article (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2735311&C=airwar).

For me personally it would be very disppointing if a AESA radar wouldn't be part of a third tranche.

However:
The Italian defense official said the Caesar active electronically scanned array radar now being developed is “not an option for Tranche 3. It’s not technically feasible.”

Confusing, eh?

[Grand Danois]

GaAs is ont its way OUT.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/7566/cshig20106dr0.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Nonetheless, the Rafale will (might) have a GaAs AESA in 2012 and *not* a GaN. Such a dead end apparently... 2012 is the same year that CAESAR might be fielded.

KORRIGAN is an European project on GaN.

[Falstaff]

Besides the hardware issue does anyone know if the EuroRadar members are developing the approbriate software skills to fully exploit the potential benefits of a AESA radar? GrandDanois?
Same question for the Rafale-Team? BKNO?

[swerve]

Besides the hardware issue does anyone know if the EuroRadar members are developing the approbriate software skills to fully exploit the potential benefits of a AESA radar? GrandDanois?
Same question for the Rafale-Team? BKNO?

I think they probably have the software skills already, though I couldn't say to what extent they've already written software to use the features of AESA.

Both Thales & one member of Euroradar have AESA radars (though not fighter radars) already in service. Been working on them for years.

[Todjaeger]

Any word on the UK trial of AESA on Tornado GR4? The contract was granted to Qinetic in March of 2006 for trial by 2007.

Here's the article.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/03/aesa-radar-to-be-trialed-on-uks-gr4-tornados-by-2007/index.php

From what I understand, it was intended that this AESA would be used to provide targeting data for ground attack/strike missions.

-Cheers

[BKNO]

Grand Danois Nonetheless, the Rafale will (might) have a GaAs AESA in 2012 and *not* a GaN. Such a dead end apparently... 2012 is the same year that CAESAR might be fielded.

First of all you're affirmative weither even DGA and Thales are not, second, an upgrade to EASA is already funded and decided as part of the roadmap (among other systems) weither it is still a "might" in Eurofighter case.

There have been several different DGA contracts for the AESA programs and more than one for this particular aerial, i doubt very much that you know more than Thales or the French gouvernement themself which technology it will use in 2010.

The GaAs technology doesn't make much sense when 4.7 million Eus are spent by DGA in the GaN program and results are said to be nothing short of astonishing (10 X to 20 X power output)...

The goal of the GaN program is to be able to field production ready GaN TRs comes 2010 and they already are developed in 6 inches diameter, it comes later than the production ready European optimised GaAs TR modules but it is there for them to test.

"Samples for customers are now available in 3” and 4” diameters. Because the fabrication process is not limited by the small diameters of bulk SiC, the process is scalable to the larger wafer sizes standard for silicon—a 6” version is currently in development."
http://www.soitec.com/en/news/pr136.htm

As for Korrigan if it IS a European venture it is also predominantly a DGA/Thales program.

Grand Danois Such a dead end apparently

Sure!!! I guess now France and the rest of Europe have as much dollars to pour into dead-ended programs than the US.

I think perhaps you have a small information gap.

[Grand Danois]

First of all you're affirmative weither even DGA and Thales are not,...

???

second, an upgrade to EASA is already funded and decided as part of the roadmap (among other systems) weither it is still a "might" in Eurofighter case.

Yes. I used "will" and "might" appropiately. Yes, GaN promises to be much superior to GaAs. We don't disagree on that. What we disagree on is the time it will take to go from lab, to mature actual systems. Another point was that Eurofighter and Rafale seem to have pretty much the same path wrt AESA. However, Rafale is in a more urgent need of a new radar, than the EF, which can rely on the CAPTOR longer, perhaps even skip fielding the GaAs AESA?

Anyway, maturing the technology itself doesn't require you to actually field it, yet the Rafale and likely the EF will.

Perhaps the GaN tech as fielded systems is farther away, than what your quotes suggest.

There have been several different DGA contracts for the AESA programs and more than one for this particular aerial, i doubt very much that you know more than Thales or the French gouvernement themself which technology it will use in 2010.

And you do?

The GaAs technology doesn't make much sense when 4.7 million Eus are spent by DGA in the GaN program and results are said to be nothing short of astonishing (10 X to 20 X power output)...

There are other obvious advantages as well, like reistance to radiation, reliability etc. How much of this potential that will actually translate to the systems level and be an actual capability/performance is to be seen.

The goal of the GaN program is to be able to field production ready GaN TRs comes 2010 and they already are developed in 6 inches diameter, it comes later than the production ready European optimised GaAs TR modules but it is there for them to test.

"Samples for customers are now available in 3” and 4” diameters. Because the fabrication process is not limited by the small diameters of bulk SiC, the process is scalable to the larger wafer sizes standard for silicon—a 6” version is currently in development."
http://www.soitec.com/en/news/pr136.htm

Commented on above.

As for Korrigan if it IS a European venture it is also predominantly a DGA/Thales program.

Yup. It is about establishing a fully independent, European production line for GaN T/R modules. I.e. also available for, say the EF.

Sure!!! I guess now France and the rest of Europe have as much dollars to pour into dead-ended programs than the US.

I think perhaps you have a small information gap.

Nah.. It is more a matter of perspective methinks. Of course most technologies are made obsolote by newer and better ditto. It is a matter of the relative timescales involved.

[BKNO]

Grand Danois "What we disagree on is the time it will take to go from lab, to mature actual systems."

Considering that there is less than three years in developement between the latest optimised gallium arsenide T/R modules, and the developed 6 In GaNs i dont really SEE where it is going to be a problem to field them in competition in trial with the GaAs aerial before 2010.

Grand Danois Another point was that Eurofighter and Rafale seem to have pretty much the same path wrt AESA.

Actually from where they are both concerned, RBE 2 is the only one conceived from day one for a plug and play solution.

More to the point the Roadmap is fully funded by DGA weither the Typhoon upgrade is still not in the program partner's MoDs budgets yet.

Grand Danois "However, Rafale is in a more urgent need of a new radar, than the EF, which can rely on the CAPTOR longer, perhaps even skip fielding the GaAs AESA?"

Say WHO? What exactly give you this impression? Forum legends on the actual RBE2?

If you could read French (and the comment of the French head of Staff at the Assemblee Nationale on the subject) you'd have figured this one long ago...

This AESDArada is NOT a French forces requierement bu EXPORT...

Within the actual doctrine of use of MN/AdA, RBE2 PESA performances are MORE THAN SUFFISCIENT.

It have FAR BETTER LPI and target descrimination performances than the Raptor and an equivalent range to the 2000's RDY in this modes...

Grand Danois "Anyway, maturing the technology itself doesn't require you to actually field it, yet the Rafale and likely the EF will."

So far the only certainty is that Rafale WILL be equiped with an AESA radar and that the GaN technology is already matured enough to be used with military applications.

The only difference between the two is the developements of 6-inch GaN which is far from being a technical issue.

Grand Danois "Perhaps the GaN tech as fielded systems is farther away, than what your quotes suggest."

Perhaps you still should take care of this information gap...

RF Micro lands first GaN HEMT purchase order
25 January 2007

http://compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/news/11/1/24/1

http://compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/news/11/1/24/1/rfgan

[Scorpion82]

This AESDArada is NOT a French forces requierement bu EXPORT...

Ehm, and why they fund AESA and want to field it ~2012 for AdA/MN Rafales? Export is for sure one argument, but using it your self is not wrong either.

It have FAR BETTER LPI and target descrimination performances than the Raptor and an equivalent range to the 2000's RDY in this modes...


Do you mean Eurofighter's Captor or really the Raptors radar (APG-77)?

[BKNO]

Scorpion82 Ehm, and why they fund AESA and want to field it ~2012 for AdA/MN Rafales? Export is for sure one argument, but using it your self is not wrong either.

Of course it makes sense to field what you propopse for export and it wouldn't be commercially viable to do otherwise simply because export customers generally requiers this.

AGAIN it never was an AdA/MN requierement.

The whole thing was brought up by politicians and the GIE mostly after the export bid failures the AdA and MN regards the actual AESA performances are quiet satisfying and THIS after pitting the M/F1 and AdA F2 vs virtually everything NATO have in its European inventory.

End of the AESA legend.

[Grand Danois]

BKNO is correct. Ada/MN doctrine doesn't require a radar of CAPTOR quality, as French fighters are supposed to work with E-2/E-3 support, compensating for the nearsightedness of the Raffy radar.

This also explains the answer to the parliament that the current rather is adequate as it fits doctrine. It's company speak.

Also, the lack of AESA or performance is a hindrance for export, that production of Raffy airframes was deleted to fund the development of the GaAs AESA. Not all customers have AEW&C.

This indirectly makes it a requirement for the AdA/MN, as they need other customers in order to fund the development of what is currently an orphan platfrom.

As I said: The Raffy is in a much more urgent need of an radar upgrade. And the physical evidence is, that it will actually get fielded by the Ada/MN.

NOW, this begs the question: Why do they do not skip the "dead end" GaAs tech, if GaN is just around the corner and the back-end technology is similar?

[Waylander]

Isn't E3 support also part of the rest of NATO? I thought because of this there are the NATO AWACS in Geilenkirchen.

[Grand Danois]

Isn't E3 support also part of the rest of NATO? I thought because of this there are the NATO AWACS in Geilenkirchen.

Both UK and France have their own Sentry sqns. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_Sentry#Operators

[Waylander]

Jup I know.
But saying that the Rafale is supposed to work together with E2/3s is also right for the EF and so is not a valid argument in my eyes. :)

[jaffo4011]

and dont forget that france doesnt get automatic use of nato e.3's as its not officially part of nato.de gaulle didnt approve of membership back in the 60's,so although the french do paricipate in some nato exercises they arent full members....

britain has its oen fleet of e.3's which are marked with raf insignia not nato.

[Scorpion82]

and dont forget that france doesnt get automatic use of nato e.3's as its not officially part of nato.de gaulle didnt approve of membership back in the 60's,so although the french do paricipate in some nato exercises they arent full members....

britain has its oen fleet of e.3's which are marked with raf insignia not nato.


And France has its own fleet too. This comprises 4 E-3F for the AdA and some (I think 3 or 4) E-2C for the MN.

[Grand Danois]

Jup I know.
But saying that the Rafale is supposed to work together with E2/3s is also right for the EF and so is not a valid argument in my eyes. :)

It depends more on it.

[Waylander]

Aaaaah, now I understand. :)

I should read more carefully the next time. :o

[Grand Danois]

Aaaaah, now I understand. :)

I should read more carefully the next time. :o

Not really. Could easily be me not typing everything out. ;)

[swerve]

and dont forget that france doesnt get automatic use of nato e.3's as its not officially part of nato.de gaulle didnt approve of membership back in the 60's,so although the french do paricipate in some nato exercises they arent full members....

britain has its oen fleet of e.3's which are marked with raf insignia not nato.

Oh god, not that hoary old myth again . . . :(

France is a full member of NATO, & has been since NATO began. It pulled out of the integrated military command (not a requirement of membership) in 1966, but remained a member of NATO & all its other structures. It kept liaison officers in the integrated command, & carefully co-ordinated its forces deployments & plans with the integrated command & other NATO members. There were formal agreements about how French units would operate with the integrated command.

In 1993, France rejoined the integrated command.

[BKNO]

Grand Danois It's company speak.

Not really, never eared or read anything from Dassault or the GIE on the subject, they just do what the gouv and the DGA are requiering, they do not conduct the procurement policies in France....

I'ts political and mainly tactical from our head of staffs who assesed their performances and gave the results to the Assemblee Nationale earings.

Also, the lack of AESA or performance is a hindrance for export, that production of Raffy airframes was deleted to fund the development of the GaAs AESA. Not all customers have AEW&C.

That's the whole point and there were NO deletions, only funding shift from one batch to the other to free the necessary Euros for the Roadmap.

Further more there were more than the absence of AESA against the Rafale perhaps a diferent SPECTRA (or different defense suite all together) as well as the absence of OSF. The performances of the RBE" PESA weren't the main problem.

This indirectly makes it a requirement for the AdA/MN, as they need other customers in order to fund the development of what is currently an orphan platfrom.


This is NOT the Eurofighter program, the post F-4 standard is already FULLY funded.

Grand Danois As I said: The Raffy is in a much more urgent need of an radar upgrade. And the physical evidence is, that it will actually get fielded by the Ada/MN.

You r analysis is wrong and couterdict that of our AdA special;ists as well as that of the Industry.

Grand Danois NOW, this begs the question: Why do they do not skip the "dead end" GaAs tech, if GaN is just around the corner and the back-end technology is similar?

Since they conducted the R&D for both technologies in parralel, why should they take the risk of loosing one opportunity to develop the GaAs when it is actually the second (or first) option they already invested in?

It is obvious that GaN offers a far greater developement and growth potential than GaAs and if the technology is ready they will use it, for the time being there have been TWO different R&D programs and they are pursuing BOTH solutions, wisely.

[Grand Danois]

I'ts political and mainly tactical from our head of staffs who assesed their performances and gave the results to the Assemblee Nationale earings.

That's what I mean when I say company speak.

[BKNO]

Grand Danois That's what I mean when I say company speak.

In this case i concur.

But you know the Assemblee twend to grill the Industrial quiet BAD, they cant really dictate their will or spin their way around, it's a crime and corruption (as far as where national weapon procurements goes) is a no go, it would be regarded as anti-national if you see what i mean...

[Grand Danois]

Not really, never eared or read anything from Dassault or the GIE on the subject, they just do what the gouv and the DGA are requiering, they do not conduct the procurement policies in France....

Further more there were more than the absence of AESA against the Rafale perhaps a diferent SPECTRA (or different defense suite all together) as well as the absence of OSF. The performances of the RBE" PESA weren't the main problem.

Since they conducted the R&D for both technologies in parralel, why should they take the risk of loosing one opportunity to develop the GaAs when it is actually the second (or first) option they already invested in?

It is obvious that GaN offers a far greater developement and growth potential than GaAs and if the technology is ready they will use it, for the time being there have been TWO different R&D programs and they are pursuing BOTH solutions, wisely.

Didn't have time to comment on the rest... Again. Two solutions have according to you been developed and will be ready for production at roughly the same time. Yet the sub-optimal solution is to be fielded - why? Because it is the "first thing they invested in, so that's what has to be fielded first...?"

[Falstaff]

Didn't have time to comment on the rest... Again. Two solutions have according to you been developed and will be ready for production at roughly the same time. Yet the sub-optimal solution is to be fielded - why? Because it is the "first thing they invested in, so that's what has to be fielded first...?"

That would be exactly my question... I don't understand this either.

[BKNO]

Grand Danois that production of Raffy airframes was deleted to fund the development of the GaAs AESA.

No deletion took place, the total number of Rafale is still the same, only the tranche in order was "amputated" of 8 airframes and these reported to the following tranche.

Grand Danois This indirectly makes it a requirement for the AdA/MN, as they need other customers in order to fund the development of what is currently an orphan platfrom.

YOU insist into interpreting our head of STAFF comments...

EXTRACT: Ainsi, un radar air-air à plus long rayon d'action est destiné à pallier pour certaines aviations l'absence d'Awacs, ou encore une furtivité moindre du fait de l'absence de capteurs OSF ou de systèmes d'autoprotection comme le Spectra.

Audition du général Richard Wolsztynski, chef d'état-major de l'armée de l'air, sur le projet de loi de finances pour 2006 (n° 2540)

CONSTITUTION DU 4 OCTOBRE 1958

ONZIÈME LÉGISLATURE

Enregistré à la Présidence de l'Assemblée nationale le 11 octobre 2000.

AVIS

PRÉSENTÉ

AU NOM DE LA COMMISSION DE LA DÉFENSE NATIONALE ET DES FORCES ARMÉES(1),

SUR LE PROJET DE loi de finances pour 2001 (n° 2585)

TANSLATION: So a longer ranged air-to-air radar is meant to compensate for the absence of AWACS in the case of some Air Forces, or even a lower stealthiness due to the absence of OSF or the auroprotection system like SPECTRA.

-----It is taken within the contest of the failure in the export of Rafale and these comments were made by général Richard Wolsztynski, AdA Head of Staff...

Quote: Waylander "If a customer needs to spend extra money for final integration of weapons like AIM-120, AIM-9, several bombs, etc. this could be part of the reasons for the export problems."

Another quote: "_ Par ailleurs, certains des développements proposés pourraient profiter un jour aux appareils français."

TANSLATION: By the way, many of the proposed developpement MIGHT beneficiate one day to the French (in French service) aircrafts.

Grand Danois Quote:
Originally Posted by BKNO
Not really, never eared or read anything from Dassault or the GIE on the subject, they just do what the gouv and the DGA are requiering, they do not conduct the procurement policies in France....

Further more there were more than the absence of AESA against the Rafale perhaps a diferent SPECTRA (or different defense suite all together) as well as the absence of OSF. The performances of the RBE" PESA weren't the main problem.

Since they conducted the R&D for both technologies in parralel, why should they take the risk of loosing one opportunity to develop the GaAs when it is actually the second (or first) option they already invested in?

It is obvious that GaN offers a far greater developement and growth potential than GaAs and if the technology is ready they will use it, for the time being there have been TWO different R&D programs and they are pursuing BOTH solutions, wisely.

Grand Danois Didn't have time to comment on the rest... Again. Two solutions have according to you been developed and will be ready for production at roughly the same time.

Not exactly at the same time.

Thales have been working at GaAs for ages, the first contract for such a radar was passed by DGA At F'borough airshow in 2002 or so and a demondtrator was flown two years later, its technology was based on US GaAs.

The GaN program is schedule to provide with industrialy viable GaN componnents by 2010, weither the optimised European GaAs tecnology is already been flight tested and is industrialisable from today.

The goal for the GaAs was production ready at least two/three years earlier than what the GaN would allow for s othere is a time gap but it doesnt mean that in 2012 the GaN aerial wouldn't be a viable solution.

Thales have the choice and it will be made on the basis of the results, there is NO point in investing into an expensive upgrade if what DGA is paying for is becoming outdated after 5 years of service...

I think the Eurofighter consortium are more than aware of this and will eventually act upon these facts come decision time...

[Onkel]

Now that Gripen flies with an AESA Radar- what about Caesar? Something new?

O.k., found it myself: "Moreover, a study to fit an active electronically scanned array radar on the fighter is due to be completed this year. That will help define a suitable upgrade roadmap. Although Casolini says “the technology is mature,” he suggests that fielding such a radar before 2013 would be difficult"

source: Aviationweek 2009

[jaffo4011]

do you realise that you are replying to a 2 year old post?

[Onkel]

do you realise that you are replying to a 2 year old post?

I do, mate. Two years have passed and while Saab is offering its Gripen with an Aesa Radar, having its maiden flight a few days ago, Typhoon needs 3 more years, having its maiden flight two years ago. Intereting, isn´t it?

[swerve]

Wrong comparison, mate. The Typhoon date is deliveries of production aircraft to squadrons, if a decision to proceed is made now. In the case of Gripen, the decision to proceed was made some time ago, & deliveries of production aircraft to squadrons are still a few years away. The differences are due to different political environments.

Note that the main (with different partners) radar supplier is the same in both cases: Selex.

[Onkel]

Wrong comparison, mate. The Typhoon date is deliveries of production aircraft to squadrons, if a decision to proceed is made now. In the case of Gripen, the decision to proceed was made some time ago, & deliveries of production aircraft to squadrons are still a few years away.

O.k.: That means, technically could Typhon be delivered AESA-equipped as soon as Gripen if the customer so wished....

[Scorpion82]

O.k.: That means, technically could Typhon be delivered AESA-equipped as soon as Gripen if the customer so wished....

If there is some consistency beside the partner nations yes. A decision on that is yet awaited and representives say that if a decision is made this year they will be able to deliver an AESA solution on time of the start of T3A deliveries.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Damn it seems these old Eurocanard threads have been popping up plenty lately!

[Vivendi]

Damn it seems these old Eurocanard threads have been popping up plenty lately!
yes, it's worse than weed :rolleyes:

[jaffo4011]

yes,there really should be dedicated forums for less advanced 'non eurocarnard' or less manoueverable'american' aircraft types ozzy....just to keep you happy:D

[Ozzy Blizzard]

yes,there really should be dedicated forums for less advanced 'non eurocarnard' or less manoueverable'american' aircraft types ozzy....just to keep you happy:D

Old habits die hard hey mate? :D