Problems with new Indian Sukhois

[gf0012-aust]

"The Indian Air Force (IAF) has refused to accept a batch of Sukhoi jets from military ally Russia after engine problems in a previous consignment, a report said Sunday.

The air force has told the defence ministry to stop further payments to the Russian manufacturers Rosvoorouzhenie until they can rectify the glitches in the SU-30 MKIs, the Indian Express newspaper said.

Rosvoorouzhenie sent a team to New Delhi Thursday to hold talks with top defence and air force officials including IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S. Krishnaswamy, the report said."

Russian quality control has always been a problem with aircraft. This appears to be one of the reasons as to why India has taken so long settling on the Gorshkov, Akulas, and the SU27s (marinised flankers)

[Aussie Digger]

I wonder if this will convince India to go ahead with it's mooted purchase of 125 Mirage 2000-5's? I'm sure Pakistan will be hoping it doesn't. The 125 Mirages would be a massive threat to their air defence capabilities, in addition to that already posed.

[gf0012-aust]

I wonder if this will convince India to go ahead with it's mooted purchase of 125 Mirage 2000-5's? I'm sure Pakistan will be hoping it doesn't. The 125 Mirages would be a massive threat to their air defence capabilities, in addition to that already posed.

Its hard to say, but when I was involved with some projects we had a common understanding that the french would sell to nearly everyone. Thats is why the longevity of the EU is interesting. Sales of arms to "undesirable" nations can be limited by the EU. That means that France would be morally obliged to abide by an edict if and when it was issued.

That hasn't stopped them in the past (or the germans, or the english, italians, spanish etc...)

I don't actually see that happening as India would take issue with France selling similar capability to Pakistan.

India is/or has established hardware links to the US, Russia, UK and Israel. If the curent politic climate continues they will also have a greater role with China. In purely hardware strategic terms that is a close fit. China has russian aircraft that India is able to substantially improve upon.
Israel is modifying Russian, Indian and Chinese aircraft.

That is an extensive technical capability bloc. China knows that Indian influences into the SU-3x series have made the platform more robust and effective - at the end of the day thats what the chinese will want.

They are already rumoured to have built more than their licenses permitted.

:roll

[Londo Molari]

India has made the Su-30 series more robust?

the Indian Su-30s have had more problems than any other Flanker variant out there. And I'm pretty sure China won't be sellin or buying any arms from India any time soon, or vice versa. But relations ARE improving, and thats a good thing.

As for the Mirage 2000-5, the chances of India getting them are about the same as Pakistan getting them. If the Indians fix their Su-30 problems, they have no reason to go for the Mirage 2000-5. The Su-30MKI is a bigger threat to Pakistan than the Mirage 2000-5. And if they can somehow deal with the Su-30, the mirage will be irrelevant.

[gf0012-aust]

India has made the Su-30 series more robust?

the Indian Su-30s have had more problems than any other Flanker variant out there. And I'm pretty sure China won't be sellin or buying any arms from India any time soon, or vice versa. But relations ARE improving, and thats a good thing.

As for the Mirage 2000-5, the chances of India getting them are about the same as Pakistan getting them. If the Indians fix their Su-30 problems, they have no reason to go for the Mirage 2000-5. The Su-30MKI is a bigger threat to Pakistan than the Mirage 2000-5. And if they can somehow deal with the Su-30, the mirage will be irrelevant.

The indians have made changes to non avionics components, The quality of the airframe is still an issue. that can be changed by India as it has a more vigorous quality control process at the military product level.

What I am saying is that Sino-Indian relations may well travel down a path of greater co-operation out of necessity. Pragmatism makes it more likely.

I cannot see the Indians seriously contemplating buying French kit as it will add another layer of force mix incompatability into the force structure. They have also seen that France will turn off supply if required under its existing alliances (eg argentina, after 1999 Iraq)

And I agree, In a modern theatre with competent EAD the Mirage is a dinosaur relegated to follow up only if dominance in theatre is assured. A modern opfor would have little trouble neutralising them.

The Sukhois when fixed will be a lethal force projection footprint. That really leaves the Chinese LAVI ( :roll ) as the best solution - ASSUMING that the Chinese get it right.

addendum

the biggest bug bear with russian aircraft is maint down time. it is excessive compared to western aircraft. as I've said before, it is irrelevant arguing that you can get two engines for the price of one western equivalent. If you have less sortie time, if you have less pilot confidence, then your airforce can only fight at the requisite level.

I for one would have been curious about how a SU-30 or Mig-29 would perform with twin Pratt & Whitney TF-30P-414A turbofans, twin Pratt & Whitney F100 turbofans or twin F119-PW-100's ;)

[Awang se]

I've been thinking on the same line for quite some time now. A western made engine mounted on the russian build airframe. The US do have some migs in store, i wonder if they will try it. They could be a compatibility issue but i think it will not be much of a problems. Maybe they have to make several changes in the airframe and the question is, can this modified airframe maintain the performance of the original design? They will be a changes in airframe drag and weight.

[gf0012-aust]

I've been thinking on the same line for quite some time now. A western made engine mounted on the russian build airframe. The US do have some migs in store, i wonder if they will try it. They could be a compatibility issue but i think it will not be much of a problems. Maybe they have to make several changes in the airframe and the question is, can this modified airframe maintain the performance of the original design? They will be a changes in airframe drag and weight.

Awang se, australia modified its F-86 Sabres many years ago. We replaced the engine for a Rolls Royce Avon, replaced the machine guns with Aden Canon etc.. it was a far superior version.

The americans have in excess of 30 Mig29's, they have Mig25's, Mig21's Su-24's. I'm not sure whether they would bother. The ones who are more likely to do it are the Israelis or a company like SAGEM

[Awang se]

I know, we do have some of the Australian F-86 on our inventory.

[Londo Molari]

China has its pwn Su-27s, Su-30s, and the J-10. They don't need to fear the Su-30MKI.

As for India not getting French things, they already demanded that Russia incorporate multiple Isreali and French systems in the SU-30MKIs. Its a total mix of things. Although it does seems to have worked out. But anyone get order those things and have them put together. They haven't created anything new.

I do see China and India co-operating in the far future... as they could be the major international players apart from the U.S. But definitely not a technical level.

[The Watcher]

IAF refused Russian Jets:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_981.shtml

:o

[corsair7772]

I dont think it was those poor sukhois. The indians bungled up their maintenance and now there blamin it on the aircraft. If India ditches its sukhois Pakistan shud get them from China.

[ullu]

I dont think it was those poor sukhois. The indians bungled up their maintenance and now there blamin it on the aircraft. If India ditches its sukhois Pakistan shud get them from China.How is Pakistan going to buy from China related to Indian's refusing jets from Russians??? :lolol

[corsair7772]

Cuz they wont be buyin the Sukhoi type anymore DUH

[gf0012-aust]

South African technicians did a re-engine of some of their F-1AZ's with MiG-29 engines. The internal gearing was redesigned to produce a very reliable engine.

This development and knowledge was passed on to the Russians which IIRC was used it to create the 33k model.

The russians have had recent help with these engines from the west. It would be interesting to see what SAGEM could do with a russian engine.

[Mukesh Patel]

This would be a good time for Pakistan to attack India or for another kargil? :lol

No, just kidding guys.

Well, so the problem isn't India's generated but Russian quality control? Russian economy is so hungry for money that they are not checking if equipment is good or bad. I think, its about time for India to look for another partner for defence equipment and work on its own defense related projects like LCA, MCA and other stealthy fighters and war ships. After all we are one of the world's largest economies and we can afford that.

[Londo Molari]

I think its a mix of two things.

First, theres a definite quality-control problem with the Russian aircraft which are supplied to India... Mig-21s crash a lot, Mig-29s have very high maintenance costs, and Su-30s are having engine problems for thr second time. Russian aircraft exported to other countries do not have problems anywhere near this much.

Second, recently the Indian air force has been spending a LOT of money to try to get itself modernized recently... and when even the slightest problems arise, they get agitated because they spent so much. So they start making drastic threats like discontinueing payment for the Su-30 series, to get thr Russians to fix the problem, and to make sure it doesnt happen again.

[gf0012-aust]

I think its a mix of two things.

First, theres a definite quality-control problem with the Russian aircraft which are supplied to India... Mig-21s crash a lot, Mig-29s have very high maintenance costs, and Su-30s are having engine problems for thr second time. Russian aircraft exported to other countries do not have problems anywhere near this much.

Second, recently the Indian air force has been spending a LOT of money to try to get itself modernized recently... and when even the slightest problems arise, they get agitated because they spent so much. So they start making drastic threats like discontinueing payment for the Su-30 series, to get thr Russians to fix the problem, and to make sure it doesnt happen again.

It could be an engine issue though. Certainly the tests the Americans did with the 21 Mig-29's they purchased showed poor engine build quality etc.. poor airframe fit etc... The Germans also found that the Mig 29's they inherited were high maintenance compared to their core fleet. The 29's required more loving care than the F4's

The IAF has been flogging their aircraft quite a bit. I was in India about 6 months ago and they were heavily sortie'ing their Jaguars so I imagine the Migs would have also been getting a bit of a flogging (no pun intended) ;)

Its the same prob with the Mig 25's. They have had a hard time getting parts for these aircraft and are reducing flying time. The Russians even have problems sourcing parts.

I know of several countries using 25's who have had approaches trying to get parts or even the purchase of complete aircraft.

Even Saddams buried fleet would probably have Indian buyers if they could get access to them

[corsair7772]

Its not the Russian Equipment thats faulty its the Bad maintenance prevailing in the Indian Armed Forces.

[umair]

gf is right about the Russian & Chinese planes having low build quality & lots of maintainence downtime.I had a chat with my uncle on this topic & he agreed on what gf was saying.However he also told me that PAF's Chinese fighters differ radically from their Russian & Chinese counterparts,reason being:1)PAF is a stickler for quality, the chinese jets build for us are constructed according to our quality control specs which are(according to him) better than chinese.2)When delivered each chinese or secondhand jet is thoroughly scrutinised and parts found not upto the mark are immediatly replaced by our techs.He also said that PAF jets have quite less maintainence downtime when compared with similar jets of Russian make.

[Awang se]

there is also another issues of Russia dump the used spare-parts as new.