U-214 for Pakistan

[Falstaff]

According to BITS (http://www.bits.de) (see news) and GeoPowers.com (http://www.geopowers.com/News/News_II_2007/news_ii_2007.html#PakUBoote) citing the newspaper "Neues Deutschland (http://http://www.nd-online.de/artikel.asp?AID=108541&IDC=16)" (all sources german) the budgetary commission of the German "Bundestag" (parliament) finally has been presented with a request by the German government to guarantee for about 1 billion € (total value about 1.2 bln €) for the sale of 3 U-214 class submarines to Pakistan. This is seen as a sign that the German government supports the sale and that negotioations have entered an advanced state. It is speculated that pre-assembled submarine sections will be delivered from 2011 for final assembly in Pakistan.
Concerns regarding the integration of a navalized "Barbur" cruise missile in the future and the unstable Pakistan government are expressed, culminating in speculations that after a possible take-over by muslim extremists these submarines would be a very threatening asset.

Basic information about the U-214 can be found here (http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/type_212/) and in the (this time ;)) accurate Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-214).

[EnigmaNZ]

It is a worry I have as well, it could be another Iran, blk 52 F-16s, Orions P3Cs, Type 214s, etc, all of which will find their way to China to copy the technology if that scenerio comes to fruition.

[Waylander]

I also don't like the idea of Chinese scientists crawling around in the U-214s.

I hope our government and HDW know what they are doing.

[BilalK]

I think certain conditions will be placed on the access to the submarines.

[SABRE]

I also don't like the idea of Chinese scientists crawling around in the U-214s.

I hope our government and HDW know what they are doing.

If deal goes through, U-214s would be placed at Karachi Dockyards - right where Agosta-90B facility is. There are no Chinese scientists there, just French & Pakistanis. Plus your engineers would be there.

It is a worry I have as well, it could be another Iran, blk 52 F-16s, Orions P3Cs, Type 214s, etc, all of which will find their way to China to copy the technology if that scenerio comes to fruition.

No F-16, No P3C Orion, no C-130, no Agosta-90B has ever made its way to China from Pakistan. & I dont think the U-214 would either. The German deal makers arnt dumb, if they worried abt this security concern they wudnt have put the deal on the table at 1st place.

Concerns regarding the integration of a navalized "Barbur" cruise missile in the future and the unstable Pakistan government are expressed, culminating in speculations that after a possible take-over by muslim extremists these submarines would be a very threatening asset.

This is just a regular BS ... The extremists may have significant number but they are limited to certain areas. I.e.: they might win from NWFP province but dont have any chance of winning from Punjab, Sindh & Balochistan. You need majority in at least 3 provinces (Punjab out of which is must) to make it to the government.

The basic requirement of the new submarine deal is that it should be able to launch cruise missile. Work on this would also take place on Agosta-90B & the naval version is kind of on the shelf.

[radiosilence]

The concerns express by some members is hypocritical. The "bogeyman" aka extremist take over of certain countries is overhype. The Germans have sold their subs to areas of conflicts and country A is using their subs to deploy nuclear cruise missiles. Yet, the Germans continue to sell their subs to country A knowing this. If the Germans don't sell others will. The French are lobbying to win this deal. At the end of the day money talks and bullshit walks.

[umair]

And the French are not out of the game yet. Total requirement is for 6 new submarines, so who knows?

[BilalK]

Looks like the PN is actually looking for 4 new submarines, not 3.
==============================

Australia, Pakistan, Bulgaria: DCN hopes to obtain two contracts out of three

t the time of the presentation of the results of the company, last Friday, Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, president of DCN, indicated that its group intended to currently gain at least two of the three contracts being negotiated. In Australia, DCN, combined with ADI (subsidiary of Thales) is in competition with Navantia for the construction of two helicopter carriers attack (1 billion dollar). The French proposes an increased version of the building of projection and Mistral command, with a displacement increased to 27.000 tons. Opposite, Spain aligns its Buque de Proyección Estratégica (BPE), of which the first specimen, Juan Carlos I, is in the course of construction for Armada. After the handing-over of the commercial offers at the end of 2006, Australia must choose the prize winner this year.

To Pakistan, DCN fights a savage battle with German TKMS in order to modernize the underwater fleet of the country with buildings of the type Scorpène or Marlin. Islamabad wishes to acquire four new submarines to replace the Daphne, now disarmed. Currently carrying out for this country the program Agosta 90B, DCN seems to have charts to play, the more so as the third submarine of the series, first to being equipped with the system with anaerobic propulsion MESMA, will begin its tests sea this year. The German commercial pressure remains nevertheless very strong

Lastly, the French group hopes for a good news on the side of Bulgaria. The country could buy four corvettes of the Gowind type, to which possibly two units for Georgia would be added. The ordering of these buildings, if it is concretized, will be done nevertheless in exchange of an industrial partnership. With this occasion, DCN could sub-contract with the Bulgarian building sites the realization of sections intended for the frigates multi-missions (FREMM).

BilalK! When you are copying and posting from another forum, you can atleast give proper credit to the one who reported this news in the first place. And I can bet you will not be able to find the link as well.

[Tasman]

==============================

Australia, Pakistan, Bulgaria: DCN hopes to obtain two contracts out of three

t the time of the presentation of the results of the company, last Friday, Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, president of DCN, indicated that its group intended to currently gain at least two of the three contracts being negotiated. In Australia, DCN, combined with ADI (subsidiary of Thales) is in competition with Navantia for the construction of two helicopter carriers attack (1 billion dollar). The French proposes an increased version of the building of projection and Mistral command, with a displacement increased to 27.000 tons. Opposite, Spain aligns its Buque de Proyección Estratégica (BPE), of which the first specimen, Juan Carlos I, is in the course of construction for Armada. After the handing-over of the commercial offers at the end of 2006, Australia must choose the prize winner this year.



That is interesting to hear a report that DCN now plans to offer an enlarged Mistral to Australia. Up until now reports have suggested that the Mistral offered to Australia would be the standard sized vessel.

Do you have a link for this BilalK? If so it would be good if you could post it in the Australian LHDs? thread.

Cheers

[Musashi_kenshin]

I think certain conditions will be placed on the access to the submarines.

A "condition" is only useful if it is respected. First of all, Pakistan and China might be crafty enough to ensure no one finds out (at least until it was too late). Second, even if it were discovered, what could Germany do?

That said there are probably no real grounds for believing Pakistan would do that, as it relies on foreign weapons imports. If it helped China in such a blatant way today, it wouldn't be able to get its arms from anywhere except China. Given their level of technology isn't that high, Pakistan's options would be limited. Plus it would allow China to charge whatever they liked.

[Rich]

The concerns express by some members is hypocritical. The "bogeyman" aka extremist take over of certain countries is overhype. The Germans have sold their subs to areas of conflicts and country A is using their subs to deploy nuclear cruise missiles. Yet, the Germans continue to sell their subs to country A knowing this. If the Germans don't sell others will. The French are lobbying to win this deal. At the end of the day money talks and bullshit walks.

The real ones who hold the power in Pakistan are the Generals. Without their support there's no way Musharraf could stay in power . And sending all this military hardware, America sends most of it, is a stratagem to keep the Generals pacified.
In the great game of strategy this nation is a linchpin, which is why the Chinese are playing in Pakistan as well.

So there are two dynamics at work here with money being the least important one. Why else would China have helped them so much in their nuclear program? I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan even If Musharraf isn't involved because theres plenty that goes on outside his control.

All that help with the nukes, missilery, targeting systems...ect I'd say the Chinese have a big card to call in.

[Musashi_kenshin]

I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan

Rich, re-read my post. If there was even the suggestion Pakistan was doing that, every other country around the world bar China would stop selling it stuff. It would also stop getting spare parts, technical assistance, missiles, etc for those systems it had - their purchases would fall out of service very quickly. There's no way China could replace such platforms in the foreseeable future, let alone now.

If you were Pakistan, would you want to be so reliant on a power that couldn't even replace the high-tech packages you'd spent billions on, with a powerful neighbour like India?

[Schumacher]

....If there was even the suggestion Pakistan was doing that, every other country around the world bar China would stop selling it stuff...........

Suggestion ? :lol2 Such suggestions of Pakistan-China 'close cooperation' have been around for ages. Guess what ? Foreign arms sales to Pakistan are still going on, that's why we have this discussion thread now.

[BilalK]

Well from a lot of the reports of Pakistan illegally sending Western technology to China, the time-lines of such transactions have taken place during times of Western embargo. When spare-parts and additional models cannot be sold, the fact of keeping them in service does come to mind. IMO I do not think Pakistan has transferred anything major - such as F-16, Agosta-90B, etc - to China, the reports should consider the possible "whys". Besides the black market, Pakistan may transfer certain technology to China for possible replication or technology extract.

Whether it happened or not, one thing is clear that most the transfers have been (allegedly) happened when Pakistan was under a Western & U.S arms embargo. Perhaps maintaining those relations and regulating the access of the F-16 Block 52+, U214, etc, could be placed.

[tphuang]

If you were Pakistan, would you want to be so reliant on a power that couldn't even replace the high-tech packages you'd spent billions on, with a powerful neighbour like India?
just exactly which which high-tech packages are you talking about here? Seems to me like Pakistan is purchasing more and more Chinese stuff as the time goes on.

but having said that, the Chinese espionage effort is not restricted to just Pakistan.

[radiosilence]

The real ones who hold the power in Pakistan are the Generals. Without their support there's no way Musharraf could stay in power . And sending all this military hardware, America sends most of it, is a stratagem to keep the Generals pacified.
In the great game of strategy this nation is a linchpin, which is why the Chinese are playing in Pakistan as well.

So there are two dynamics at work here with money being the least important one. Why else would China have helped them so much in their nuclear program? I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan even If Musharraf isn't involved because theres plenty that goes on outside his control.

All that help with the nukes, missilery, targeting systems...ect I'd say the Chinese have a big card to call in.


I don't want to get off-topic but i was replying to a few members (mostly germans) expressing concerns about their govt. selling their subs to pakistan. We can discuss "The Great Game" and US military sales in another thread.

[Musashi_kenshin]

just exactly which which high-tech packages are you talking about here?

Something like the P-3C Orion? Last time I looked, China couldn't build anything like that for Pakistan. Equally I would say F-16 Block 52 is superior to the JF-17.

Such suggestions of Pakistan-China 'close cooperation' have been around for ages.

And that happened whilst the US and European countries were selling weapons to Pakistan - or was that when the embargoes were placed on it, as BilalK suggested? Because I doubt the restrictions on arms sales would have been lifted unless countries like the US and Germany were completely confident those items were safe in Pakistani hands.

[pshamim]

Israel has transferred more technology to China than Pakistan ever has. But I guess pointing finger at Israel is not kosher. Levy, developed with US money and technology is an example.

Also, China has a trillion dollars reserve and it can purchase it through the most unthinkable sources like Indians being caught in US recently selling it to China.

[Musashi_kenshin]

Israel has transferred more technology to China than Pakistan ever has. But I guess pointing finger at Israel is not kosher.

There were consequences for Israel, though. Restrictions were only lifted when Israel promised that Washington would have a veto over future exchanges.

Also, China has a trillion dollars reserve and it can purchase it through the most unthinkable sources like Indians being caught in US recently selling it to China.

I don't think that reserve is used for such things. It's the banks' money, not the government's. Even though the biggest are state-owned, I don't think that means they can use their money as they please. Plus they are lending a lot, so they need money to support those debts.

If it was government money, I would have thought they'd be using it doing something like building a long-term social welfare network for the ageing population.

[pshamim]

Well! This was just to state that Pakistan is not the only aaleged source of technology for China. Israelis, Americans including some Chinese and Indian Americans are the source too. Money talks.

What is quite evident that when there is a news of Pakistan getting something from somewhere, you see the frogs come out ribitting against Pakistan. You will find this quite common on many forums.

[Musashi_kenshin]

Israelis, Americans including some Chinese and Indian Americans are the source too. Money talks.

Sure, but it's always a risk. What you need to know is whether you can trust the government to keep a lid on things. If they do their best then the risk is the one you have all the time, that of individual greed.

What is quite evident that when there is a news of Pakistan getting something from somewhere, you see the frogs come out ribitting against Pakistan. You will find this quite common on many forums.

I think part of it is a combination of letting the past influencing ones' thinking now and also some people having a fairly low opinion of Pakistan. As I said, I don't think the US would have been that eager to sell Orions to Islamabad if there was any belief they couldn't/wouldn't keep its secrets confidential.

[pshamim]

I think part of it is a combination of letting the past influencing ones' thinking now and also some people having a fairly low opinion of Pakistan. As I said, I don't think the US would have been that eager to sell Orions to Islamabad if there was any belief they couldn't/wouldn't keep its secrets confidential.

This is a result of unending propaganda against Pakistan by certain quarters. Many of these stories are fabricated. I worked on F-16s marketing team for General Dynamics. We never had any evidence todate that there was ever a F-16 transferred to China by Pakistan. But this rumor was fabricated any way. People who acused Pakistan of transferring F-16 to China claimed the technology was used to develop the JF-17 by Chine. Same people now claim that JF-17 is based on Mig-21 to claim that it is an inferior machine. Unfortunately, many are quite culpable in believing this stories because of their bias towards Pakistan.

[pshamim]

According to a French Press report, Pakistan is supposed to make a decision by the end of June and pick the German or the French Marlin. Competition between the two has been quite intense. No fear on their part if Pakistan will transfer their technology to China. .

Please see some never seen underwater pictures of Marlin as claimed by French:


We propose this morning to discover, ahead first, Marlin to you, new underwater of attack conceived by DCN. Drawing its name from a fish of the Indian Ocean, this ship, derived from Scorpène, studied in common with the Navantia Spaniard, will be exclusively intended for the market export. Paris and Madrid, which have for the moment sold 10 Scorpène in Chile, Malaysia and India, indeed decided to propose, each one on their side, a purely national product. After the S 80 Spanish, DCN thus puts on line Marlin. Of a 75 meters length for a displacement of 1850 tons in diving, Marlin is proposed directly with the system of propulsion in closed loop (AIP) MESMA, developed by DCN propulsion and installed for the first time on Hamza, third Pakistani Agosta 90B, launched this summer in Karachi. Compared to this building, whose MESMA runs on ethanol, the AIP of Marlin will run on the gas oil, which will make it possible to have only one type of reserve fuel, feeding at the same time this system, but also the diesel engines. Compared to the traditional propulsion, the AIP increases considerably the autonomy of the submerged submarine, passing from four to five days, with nearly three weeks. But, although representing a technological jump some, the system of propulsion in closed loop have to him also its limits. Usable for the patrols, it can only be with difficulty put in Suvre for the transits, especially when they are long: “with the AIP, once the reserves with oxygen or hydrogen emptied, it is finished. Thus if the ship is not basiquement a good submarine, one does not go well far”, underlines a specialist.

Heir to Triumphing and predecessor over the Barracuda

In addition to the MESMA, the building was thus equipped with a powerful motorization. For the transits in traditional mode of propulsion, the power of its diesels enables him more quickly to reload its batteries, which is presented by DCN as a true commercial advantage compared to its competitors, like type 212/214 German. Outside, the principal difference of Marlin compared to Scorpène will lie in the adoption of diving ruders in the shape of cross of Saint Andre. This device, which will be taken again on the nuclear submarines of attack of the Barracuda type, allows a better maneuverability. Although resembling SNA of the type Amethyst, Scorpène, which is used as a basis for Marlin, “must more with Triumphing than with the Ruby from the point of view structures and technology. Its capacities of detection are exceptional, it is fast and quiet at raised speed”, explains a close relation of the file. Equipped with a system with combat SUBTICS and new very effective bases sonar, even at high speed, Scorpène, like Marlin, constitute, according to DCN, a technological jump ergonomics data processing. The innovations installed on Scorpène, in particular as regards piping or wiring, will be taken again on Marlin, as the Barracuda. Oceanic ship, Marlin will be equipped with anti-ship missiles Exocet SM 39, heavy torpedes and, possibly, mines. For DCN, this new product is not a substitute of Scorpène. “This last must remain in the offered line of goods”, ensures one at the industrialist. A first contract with Pakistan is hoped. Islamabad must make its decision at the end of the first six-month period 2007.

[tphuang]

Something like the P-3C Orion? Last time I looked, China couldn't build anything like that for Pakistan. Equally I would say F-16 Block 52 is superior to the JF-17.

P-3C, that's actually a pretty good one. But I would say PN can do without something like that. Although interestingly enough, they are creating an ASW version of Y-8X that's similar to P-3C. Not sure how far it is from joining PLAN though. As for F-16, PAF is already picking J-10 ahead of it from what I can see.

[Rich]

This is a result of unending propaganda against Pakistan by certain quarters. Many of these stories are fabricated. I worked on F-16s marketing team for General Dynamics. We never had any evidence todate that there was ever a F-16 transferred to China by Pakistan. But this rumor was fabricated any way. People who acused Pakistan of transferring F-16 to China claimed the technology was used to develop the JF-17 by Chine. Same people now claim that JF-17 is based on Mig-21 to claim that it is an inferior machine. Unfortunately, many are quite culpable in believing this stories because of their bias towards Pakistan.

Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.

[cheetah]

Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.

In your responce i didnt see any facts.all i see is a bias.
So your whole answer is based on whole lot of NOTHING.but your prejudice.:unknown

[Schumacher]

Instead of looking at how hard Pakistan will prevent any transfer to China, maybe it's good to look at just how upset Germany will really be anyway if it really happens. Remember France & Germany, under Schroder at least, were the strongest proponents of lifting the arms ban to China.
I'd say it's not nearly as fearful of any transfer to China as the US is.

[Schumacher]

......
And that happened whilst the US and European countries were selling weapons to Pakistan - or was that when the embargoes were placed on it, as BilalK suggested? Because I doubt the restrictions on arms sales would have been lifted unless countries like the US and Germany were completely confident those items were safe in Pakistani hands.

Fu, the embargo was there due mainly to the BM & nuclear issues in that part of the world.
One can never be sure of espionage, in any countries, one way or the other.
That's why there's still plenty of 'suggestion' of possible transfer to China & the point is Germany is still proceeding with the deal.
If there's as real a fear of possible transfer as you suggest, the deal wouldn't have gone ahead. It's as simple as that.

[radiosilence]

Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.

The thread is U-214 for Pakistan ! I hope this thread don't get close because of rich's bs posts like some other threads did in the past.

[radiosilence]

The German govt. are vouching 1 billion € for this deal so they don't seem too "concern" as some people here are.

[pshamim]

French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.

[radiosilence]

French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.

Will the U-214s have the same design and capabilities as the Greek and South Korean ones have?

[BilalK]

French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.
It depends how you look at it. Not a lot of information has been released on the Marlin except that it is based off Scorpene and uses some Barracuda technology. However what are its weapon-systems? Will they be the same as the ones used on Agosta-90B - i.e SM39, F17, BlackShark - or is there something else?

On the other hand the U214 would be equipped with Harpoon Block II, DM2A4 and IDAS missile. Marlin is based off the Scorpene and would potentially give IN a good simulator to train with for battle against the core SSK of the PN. The U214 is a different design and could potentially be cheaper than the Marlin.

There is no news about France offering a submarine launch LACM with Marlin - so it would mean that Pakistan's Babur program would have to continue. Basically the local industry would be charged with making the PN's SSKs LACM capable.

I think we're looking at a total of at least 6 new SSKs to replace the Daphne and Agosta-70 by 2019. IMO the winner of the current 3 SSK tender will also win the next one by default. Procure the same type in good number (6+), reduce the unit costs, and standardize as much as possible to ease maintenance and operation costs.

[uaf]

Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.

Its not the first time you spoke against Pakistan, Islam ,China or Russia without any concrete prove on the other hand its very easy for us to talk about Vietnam ( Hundreds of thousands killed unnecessarily) , IRAQ ( thousands killed and hundreds being killed everyday only for oil) and Abu Ghaaraib prison (a grand trophy) with ground realities of atrocities that were made and still going on and on ………..

This is not a thread for your filthy politics don’t try to flame it and what ever you have in your mind or happened with you in past try to get it out or rather visit a ……….. Yea

I am still surprised like I said in past how you didn’t get any warning from any moderator or even banned from this forum you have done a lot than those who were banned for flaming few threads.

[Rich]

"Edited, even tho I'm right it doesnt belong in the thread".

[kato]

On the other hand the U214 would be equipped with Harpoon Block II, DM2A4 and IDAS missile.
uh, no IDAS. no 214 or 212A will be able to use IDAS. Germany is _considering_ it for the future 212B.

[Systems Adict]

To dilute the topic slightly, but to generate further discussion,I have a question.


...Why is Pakistan not looking at 3/6 Kilo's from Russia ??


These boats have been popular exports to other nations in Asia & the Middle East (Including China & Iran), and are supposedly amongst the quietest around at this time.


Your comments please.

Systems Adict

[Schumacher]

To dilute the topic slightly, but to generate further discussion,I have a question.

...Why is Pakistan not looking at 3/6 Kilo's from Russia ??

These boats have been popular exports to other nations in Asia & the Middle East (Including China & Iran), and are supposedly amongst the quietest around at this time.

Your comments please.

Systems Adict

I think it's simply because that the 'talk' that Kilos are among the quietest has little truth, i.e. the French & German boats are much better.
China & Iran had no other choice but the Kilos.

[ahussains]

I think it's simply because that the 'talk' that Kilos are among the quietest has little truth, i.e. the French & German boats are much better.
China & Iran had no other choice but the Kilos.

Going towards the russians make some difficult to PN they are not familiar with the russian technology while westren systems are widley used By the PN.. But i also suggest at least pick some medium or samll size equipments from russia and start it for the Futures BIGGER systems..

:cool:

[BilalK]

Not sure if the Russians would be ready for that kind of relationship. Also, doesn't India also operate Kilo submarines? For the reason I think Marlin will lose against U214...I think the fact that India has Kilo would pull PN away from it.

[WebMaster]

Rich and others, please get back to the TOPIC at hand. Who gave what technology to whom is not the concern in this thread.

As someone already mentioned, countries are selling weapons to Pakistan because of confidence and knowledge that none of their technologies would make it outside of Pakistan, let alone to China. If large defense firms and governments can make that decision, assuming they know what they are doing, then someone's babbling about F-16 technology to china or some other technology for that matter holds no credibility.

There is no solid evidence that any western technology from Pakistan went to China, not a single thread. Instead of following the fantasies cooked in news rooms, why don't you follow the news that has been coming out regarding non-pakistanis (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/defence/US_Engineer_Faces_Trial_for_Smuggling_Military_Sec rets_to_China30011103.php) acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why Indian-US nuclear (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wmd/US_says_nuclear_deal_with_India_at_risk170011470.p hp) deal is at risk?

China bought bomber secrets (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/airforce/China_bought_bomber_secrets10009155.php)
Military Aviation
China obtained secret stealth technology used on B-2 bomber engines from a Hawaii-based spy ring in a compromise US officials say will allow Beijing to copy or counter a key weapon in the Pentagon's new strategy against China. Read More... (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/airforce/China_bought_bomber_secrets10009155.php)

Expatriates in Canada Pressured To Spy: Report (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/defence/Expatriates_in_Canada_Pressured_To_Spy__Report__65 693006569.php)
Defence & Security
Foreign countries are seeking to manipulate Canada’s large immigrant populations to obtain intelligence and technological secrets, according to the latest annual report by Canada’s spy service. Read More... (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/defence/Expatriates_in_Canada_Pressured_To_Spy__Report__65 693006569.php)

Nov 8, 2005
Four Charged with Stealing US Military Secrets, Spying for China (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/defence/Four_Charged_with_Stealing_US_Military_Secrets__Sp _40463004046.php)
Defence & Security
LOS ANGELES: A judge in California has ordered two Chinese nationals held without bail on charges of stealing U.S. warship technology. Authorities say the suspects are part of a scheme involving two brothers and their wives, and all four face criminal charges. Read More... (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/../news/publish/defence/Four_Charged_with_Stealing_US_Military_Secrets__Sp _40463004046.php)

Of course, there are more news stories.

Now get back to the topic, please!

[Rich]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

I mean this isn't rocket science here. You dont need a house to fall on your head to figure out Chinese scientists are going to get access to this stuff.

It just so happens I agree with your assessment that others are as big, or bigger, a risk of giving the Chinese our technology. The biggest threat being within our own borders.

[WebMaster]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny.

What was the main source of Khan network supplies and support? Companies based in Europe and US. Khan's network was part of a black market which is still in business... because snakes tail was chopped off(khan) not its head (the companies that support it).

But that is not the topic here, is it? So, let's move along.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

And links above in my post show that its Pakistanis who are stealing submarine, bomber and aerospace secrets from US or are these non-pakistanis who are doing it?

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

No body owes nothing to anybody. It is matter of research and KNOWLEDGE which khan brought with him from Europe, not china. The world works that way... countries form and break alliances as they see fit because it favors their national security. Many people would like to make similar assumptions about US-Israel, US-Iraq of 80s, US-Iran of 60s and 70s....

Even if we take these assumptions about Pakistan seriously, why are western companies and governments today still selling (even ToT in certain cases) weapons and defense technology to Pakistan? If they didn't have confidence in Pakistan, they would not be doing it. The fact that westernt governments/defence companies are selling weapons to Pakistan to this day proves that assumptions are nothing but lies and fabrications cooked against Pakistan and China.

PS: If western governments and companies today come out and say we are not going to sell anything to Pakistan because of such and such reason, I would be the first one to condemn Pakistan and China for hurting international defence community's trust.

End of the story, PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC of U-214 for Pakistan navy.

[pshamim]

Wonder why such upsetting posts? US, France, and China show no concern and have not expressed any fear. I can understand if these posts come from the countries who are never happy and start a propaganda war anytime Pakistan is going to acquire defence equipment.

Any how, if others want to discuss the U-214 and its capabilities verses other platforms, they are most welcome.

This forum will not be allowed to deteriorate through such ranting and frivolous postings, no matter who it is.

Leave your anti India/anti Pakistan bias when you come to this forum and if you cannot control yourself, go somewhere else.

[Rich]

.

What was the main source of Khan network supplies and support? Companies based in Europe and US. Khan's network was part of a black market which is still in business... because snakes tail was chopped off(khan) not its head (the companies that support it).

But that is not the topic here, is it? So, let's move along.



And links above in my post show that its Pakistanis who are stealing submarine, bomber and aerospace secrets from US or are these non-pakistanis who are doing it?



No body owes nothing to anybody. It is matter of research and KNOWLEDGE which khan brought with him from Europe, not china. The world works that way... countries form and break alliances as they see fit because it favors their national security. Many people would like to make similar assumptions about US-Israel, US-Iraq of 80s, US-Iran of 60s and 70s....

Even if we take these assumptions about Pakistan seriously, why are western companies and governments today still selling (even ToT in certain cases) weapons and defense technology to Pakistan? If they didn't have confidence in Pakistan, they would not be doing it. The fact that westernt governments/defence companies are selling weapons to Pakistan to this day proves that assumptions are nothing but lies and fabrications cooked against Pakistan and China.

PS: If western governments and companies today come out and say we are not going to sell anything to Pakistan because of such and such reason, I would be the first one to condemn Pakistan and China for hurting international defence community's trust.

End of the story, PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC of U-214 for Pakistan navy.


You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

[pshamim]

You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

Rich, How old this picture is? Daphne class submarines have already been decomissioned by Pakistan Navy in 2006

[SABRE]

You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

So whats the big deal??? Its in Pakistani waters. However, for your knowldge; there is no Naval Base at Gwadar, hence Submarines cant dock there. The work on Naval Base in Gwadar is still under planning & not a brick has been layed.

The picture its from 2007 but as Pshamim puts it & everyone with even a minor knowledge of PN will put it; the Daphne class subs have been decomissioned in 2006.

[contedicavour]

One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s, but are apparently not even considering buying Chinese SSKs. The latest Yuan type may not be in the same league as the Marlin or the U214, but could be a good value for money acquisition. Besides, China would probably be willing to help out the PN in installing cruise missiles aboard. This choice would be all the more acceptable if the PN has in mind for their SSKs a primary role against Indian surface naval assets (vs a secondary role of countering Indian SSKs).

cheers

[Falstaff]

One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s, but are apparently not even considering buying Chinese SSKs. The latest Yuan type may not be in the same league as the Marlin or the U214, but could be a good value for money acquisition.

I can imagine a few points:
1. As far as the submarines are concerned, AFAIK the Chinese can't offer a working AIP-system which the Pakistanis are keen on;
2. They diversify their equipment sources which makes sense in political as well as financial terms: they buy western high tech as far as they can afford, boosting their capabilities, building ties with the west; at the same time they buy cheaper Chinese equipment, remaining their strong ties with China and using these ties to gain technological capabilities. I think it's a very interesting mix... e.g. the F-16 Block 52/ JF-17 hi/lo fighter acquisition strategy.

My understanding of the expressed concerns is that France and Germany aren't that much concerned about technology theft at this point- at least I didn't read about it. I don't know much about the Marlin, but I know that in some respects the U-214 is not as advanced as the U-212 which is only offered to our closest allies (e.g. Italy) and the U-214 for Pakistan incorporates many OTS solutions.
However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern (see BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6503477.stm) or GlobalSecurity (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/03/mil-070301-voa04.htm)), some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.
In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".
BTW, in this weeks "Der Spiegel" there is an article that says that the Pakistani military prefers the German submarines but France constantly improves their offer regarding offsets, backed by the French government.

[uaf]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

I mean this isn't rocket science here. You dont need a house to fall on your head to figure out Chinese scientists are going to get access to this stuff.

It just so happens I agree with your assessment that others are as big, or bigger, a risk of giving the Chinese our technology. The biggest threat being within our own borders.


 Don’t you know how America and Russia was fighting for German Technology during WW II ( Missiles and Aircraft)

 How Israel did got the hands on nuclear technology?? Who was supporting them?? (and do until now)

 Who was the main supplier of Chemical weapons to Iraq (during Iran Iraq War)?? And than came back to destroy it.

And the list goes on and on ……

You posts don’t make sense at all let me give an advice get out of your shell there is a whole big world around you rather than bashing China or Pakistan in every thread.

End Of discussion from my side

Back to the Topic U-214 for PN ………………………………

[BilalK]

contedicavour
One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s
Personally I think the overall PN strategy involves the Milgem and F-22P working as defensive surface combatants in greater numbers - directly replacing the 6 Type-21s. Beyond that there are still 4 larger frigates under requirement - and before that, PN wants 6 OHPs.
However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern (see BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6503477.stm) or GlobalSecurity (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/03/mil-070301-voa04.htm)), some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.
In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".
Well Pakistan does have a naval Babur LACM in development, and I imagine the first of this series would be a submarine launched missile. Although potentially nuclear armed, I doubt Muslim extremists would gain power in Pakistan - there are simply too many barriers and lines, starting with the moderate military.
BTW, in this weeks "Der Spiegel" there is an article that says that the Pakistani military prefers the German submarines but France constantly improves their offer regarding offsets, backed by the French government.
That's interesting, however I thought Germany also offers some attractive offsets?

[Falstaff]

That's interesting, however I thought Germany also offers some attractive offsets?

Of course, but traditionally the French government is much more involved in such matters. In the "Spiegel" they say France offers several hotel complexes as well as a car factory. And in february Monsieur Chirac wrote a letter to Musharraf to convince him.

[powerslavenegi]

There is no solid evidence that any western technology from Pakistan went to China, not a single thread.
Instead of following the fantasies cooked in news rooms, why don't you follow the news that has been coming out regarding non-pakistanis (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/defence/US_Engineer_Faces_Trial_for_Smuggling_Military_Sec rets_to_China30011103.php)acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why Indian-US nuclear (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wmd/US_says_nuclear_deal_with_India_at_risk170011470.p hp) deal is at risk?

Just a net pick while webmasters are quick to rebut anyone coming up with the espionage issues relating to Pakistan and China,they do not even refarin from making false claims,its ok if people over here are uncomfortable with discussing some issues but abusing mod powers and pointing fingers which cannot be substantiated is uncalled for.

If DT community wishes we shall have a discussion with appropriate proofs and evidence and shall separate the chaff from wheat,its not the first time mods in DT have shown their personal biases while policing a thread.

In this case Mod has something to say about espionage Indians, Taiwanese and others[/URL] (non-pakistanis) acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why

Ok let us consider these sources to be true ,now why not use the same yard stick and make a catalogue of all the news in the world dailies about the espionage and clandestine ops being pursued by various nations ,we can have a nice DT awards ceremony for the winners.:vamp

[Rich]

Rich, How old this picture is? Daphne class submarines have already been decomissioned by Pakistan Navy in 2006

No doubt its about 3 years old. For gosh sakes I was trying to lighten up the mood so I posted a picture from Google Earth. There's no question its a Daphne because its exactly 57 meters long.

I dont know what they call the place but its a small naval dock at the coordinates of Gwadar.

There is no "big deal". There is no "deal" of any kind. Sheesh!

Here's a pic of what looks like a U-212 and a U-206 at dock in Kiel Germany. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/Keil%20subs.jpg I had a pic of one of Israels new German subs but cant find it.

The 214s are going to be a lovely addition to the PN, which has come a long ways in a short time. Submarines are the way to go, because boats like the 214 would tie up an inordinate number of Indian navy platforms in the simple act of trying to find them.

And thats the ticket to a naval victory, or at least survival by the PN. Use maritime strike and boats to prevent your enemy from getting his groove on. Add those speedy little missile boats to the mix and you can bring the war to his home shores. Like the PN once did with a gunboat attack on an Indian port.

Get a technological edge, fight smart, fight at night, and make your enemy fight your battle. The Aussies have a similar game plan, as do the Singaporeans. The navy with the lesser platforms can win, or at least survive.

The last thing the PN wants is for the IN to get organized for a successful blockade and bombing campaign. These new boats are a smart move.

[WebMaster]

Just a net pick while webmasters are quick to rebut anyone coming up with the espionage issues relating to Pakistan and China,they do not even refarin from making false claims,its ok if people over here are uncomfortable with discussing some issues but abusing mod powers and pointing fingers which cannot be substantiated is uncalled for.

If DT community wishes we shall have a discussion with appropriate proofs and evidence and shall separate the chaff from wheat,its not the first time mods in DT have shown their personal biases while policing a thread.

In this case Mod has something to say about espionage

Thanks for bringing it up. I don't believe, I abused any power... mods/admins are entitled to their opinion as much as anybody else.

My response is purely based on news stories from the world media and the fact that western governemnts/companies are still selling technology to Pakistan. It doesn't take "personal bias" to realize that. Anyhow, I've edited the sensitive parts of my response, that should help settle the issue.

As far as bias and other allegations... well, Rich has had issues with taking stabs at Pakistan and I don't like getting nasty complaints from our South Asian friends either just like I don't like receiving complaints about user comments from Indian, Aussies, Germans, United States.

Ok let us consider these sources to be true ,now why not use the same yard stick and make a catalogue of all the news in the world dailies about the espionage and clandestine ops being pursued by various nations ,we can have a nice DT awards ceremony for the winners.:vamp

Sure, why not? But keep in mind, one rule applies:

If a country is involved in espionage and passing on sensitive defence technology then no western government or company should be selling them anymore weapons. If we can go with that rule, the race is on, go get 'em.

Thanks and enjoy!

[radiosilence]

However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern , some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.
Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".
I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently. Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

[Waylander]

There were several articles in the german tv news, newspapers and magazines about this topic and wether we should "sell" them (Or make them a gift :mad: ).

[umair]

Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

[pshamim]

Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?

[SABRE]

Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

No, the extemist - whom I prefer to call conservatives (as not all of them are anti-Americans & pro-Taliban, although they sound like it ... & what so even if they are?) are not taking over Pakistan. In fact its now almost certain that the next government would be formed by Pakistan People's Party Parlimentarians (PPPP) the most secular party in Pakistan.


I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently.

Its complicated. Both Pakistan & Israel dont consider each other threats, well at least not direct military threats, but they do hold suspicions. Pakistan has reached out to Israel on several occasions for sure, the most recent was last week. But as far as I know, both countries would turn defensive (not in war like sense) when considering each other.

Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Read Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy. Germans wont appear least bit hippocratic compared to USA after that.

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?

France is going through election phase. I wouldnt bet on the out going French President's words. One reason for Pakistan prolonging the decision is the elections.

We also have to consider that we are near our election phase as well & as far as our scenario is concerned it seems PPPP is going to make the government; & we all know that they like to cut down on military budgets (this may put addition submarines out of the scene, unless Musharaf signs the deal before PPPP forms its government).

[powerslavenegi]

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?
That should not be a problem ,if the political will is there and French are really keen on selling the SCALP then they can always tailor the missile's range (<300 km) in accordance to MTCR.

Btw it is very intriguing that PN is keen on procuring three different subs (Agosta's are still being inducted / just been inducted) ,U-214's and then the Marlin's .Btw like Agosta's and U-214's would there be a TOT and licensed production of Marlins too ?

[pshamim]

Pakistan is supposed to make the decision by June 30th. If that happens, the deal should be signed shortly after that.

[Falstaff]

Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

To be honest I'm not much into Pakistani politics apart from what I read in newspapers. As far as I know and Sabre confirmed this there is no precedence.
But I guess one can say that since the 1980's (since Mohammed Zia ul-Haq) muslim extremists (and I would like to call them extremists to seperate them from conservatives) become more and more influential. The BBC-article I posted above describes one aspect of that. AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.
I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.
Again I must say the articles I referred to in the first place don't represent the position of the German government, but concerns that were raised mainly in the press and by the leftist opposition.

Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Hold it! The Israelis don't have nukes. That's the official position :D
However, Germany has a very special relationship to Israel because of WW II and Israel is very good in reminding us. So you won't have an uproar no matter what they do. Did you know they didn't have to pay a single Dollar for the first three subs and we'll give them the next two for 1/3 of the price? We call it military aid...


Germans wont appear least bit hippocratic compared to USA after that.

I don't really understand what you mean with "hippocratic", sorry. Could you explain?


Its complicated. Both Pakistan & Israel dont consider each other threats, well at least not direct military threats, but they do hold suspicions. Pakistan has reached out to Israel on several occasions for sure, the most recent was last week. But as far as I know, both countries would turn defensive (not in war like sense) when considering each other.

I agree. However, in case one day this changes and Pakistan enters the "Crush Israel Association" the nuclear Barbur armed submarines would by far be the most fearsome threat to Israel and prob. the whole western world.


Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

That's very interesting. Can you provide any further readings on that? However I think the Pakistanis would prefer their Barbur cruise missile...

[SATAN]

To be honest I'm not much into Pakistani politics apart from what I read in newspapers. As far as I know and Sabre confirmed this there is no precedence.
But I guess one can say that since the 1980's (since Mohammed Zia ul-Haq) muslim extremists (and I would like to call them extremists to seperate them from conservatives) become more and more influential. The BBC-article I posted above describes one aspect of that. AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.
I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.
Again I must say the articles I referred to in the first place don't represent the position of the German government, but concerns that were raised mainly in the press and by the leftist opposition.



I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind. Yeah there are some nutcases in the north western part of the country thanks to the Anti-Soviet CIA sponsored war in the 80's. They are now being taken out in the new "War on Terror"...in which Pakistan is again a front line ally .

The U214 deal might look interesting to the Pakistan navy as they want to diversify their fleet of subs. I dont know how reliable Germany is going to be in this regard. HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998... so the threat of sanctions always remains.As far as having Nuclear tipped Cruise missiles...so what? Pakistan is a Nuclear power, it exploded 6 devices in 98 of which 3 were miniaturized devices in the sub-kiloton range. If it wants to Nuclearize its sub fleet like Israel....then it will do so. I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. [Admin. Complaint lodged about inflammatory comments. Please exercise some prudence as we all know that it doesn't take much for the anti-pakistani, anti-indian complainst to start flooding the Mods as Reported Posts]What can germany do to stop them? So please....lets leave out you issues with {{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

[SATAN]

I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently. Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Israel is not seen as a threat by Pakistan and there is a huge desire to befriend Israel. Israel is a defacto Superpower in the middle east and the premier American Ally today.

Israel's newer Dolphins were financed by USAID and some of the technology in the Dolphins came from Lockheed Martin. Its Subs form an essential part of Israel's second strike capability. The newer two Dolphins will be fitted with AIP.

[Waylander]

I always knew it.

deleted
That is auncalled for and demeaning comment. Stay away from such comments.

[Falstaff]

I always knew it.
Deleted. SAY THE TRUTH!!!!! :D ;)

Dammit. Now you got me...:D

[gf0012-aust]

Before anyone goes any further.

I will automatically delete entire posts if I see anti-pakistani, anti-indian, anti-israeli, anti-chinese, anti-american, anti-australian, anti-french comments lodged. In other words, anything that is deemed to be racially insensitive and a trigger for friction.

stay within the spirit of the argument and debate.

I get really tired of editing and deleting posts when more restraint could be exercised.

[Falstaff]

I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind.

SATAN, there is no reason to go mad and offending other religions isn't tolerated in this forum.
As you can see in my profile I'm German, so no propaganda here. I stated above I'm not much into it. Just trying to be objective and repeating what I read about Pakistan.
Perhaps you can elaborate your post a bit more so I (and others) can learn from your point of view.


The U214 deal might look interesting to the Pakistan navy as they want to diversify their fleet of subs. I dont know how reliable Germany is going to be in this regard. HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998...


Now you're misinformed. Big deal a few years ago, but solved in the meantime. No american influence.


As far as having Nuclear tipped Cruise missiles...so what? Pakistan is a Nuclear power, it exploded 6 devices in 98 of which 3 were miniaturized devices in the sub-kiloton range. If it wants to Nuclearize its sub fleet like Israel....then it will do so.


Can you imagine there are some here who don't think nukes are a great idea?


I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. They pose a threat to the entrie indian ocean region and could aim their Bra-mice at EU states. If extemist hindus can carry tridents and burn down nuns and churches....they could also take their issues to the mediterranean sea. What can germany do to stop them? So please....lets leave out you issues with {{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

Wrong again, pal. Please stick with facts and don't try to construct absurd scenarios like that. Doesn't help your reasoning.


Israel's newer Dolphins were financed by USAID


Only partially true. 2/3 were financed by Germany, only the remaining 1/3 by the US.

[gf0012-aust]

HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998...

They were never taken over by the americans. The americans are minor shareholders. IIRC, 20% maximum due to national security legislation issues.

waylander will no doubt correct me if i'm wrong :)

[SABRE]

AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.

Most of them have been closed. Many remain because of their association with mainstream politics. The government, as I believe, isnt scared to crack down on them but is scared of political exploitation that might follow. But lets keep such talkout.

I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.

May be you have herd of the term "Strategic Culture." It is collectivity of norms, believes, attitudes & historical experiences of the dominent (ruling elite. & it shapes the response to the security issues.

Pakistan's Strategic Culture, especially on historical experience, terms USA is exploitive, advantage-taker & some one who calls you a friend & allie but runs away on the time of need. This has followed into the people or public. Majority isnt anti-West however, but tends to be reluctent of USA. If USA hasnt realized, when calling Pakistan its friend & ally its making fool out of no one but it self. The people no longer take Amerian words seriously. What people here support is that Pakistan should have independent Foreign Policy & USA should keep out of Pakistani politics & should limit it self to trade, defence & technology dealings.

But USA isnt the only one in the West. For the rest common people dont really care off, hack they dont even give a hack if you are an American walking on the streets of Islamabad.

To explain common people's attitude towards West is bit complicated. It will take a long long time to explain & discuss it; & this is getting off topic.

I don't really understand what you mean with "hippocratic", sorry. Could you explain?

Dont pay attention to it. I was quoting the other guy who was potrayin Germans (on the forum) as hypocratical towards Pakistan, while dealing with Israel.

I agree. However, in case one day this changes and Pakistan enters the "Crush Israel Association" the nuclear Barbur armed submarines would by far be the most fearsome threat to Israel and prob. the whole western world.

Pakistan dropped out of anti-Israel team long ago. Thanks to certain Middle Eastern countries who want to solve Arab-Israel problem not on the humanitarian basis but to develop their own power in the region. Pakistan navy rarely ventures into waters near Egypt, Syria, Libya, Lebanon & Israel.

Again, this is some what off topic.

That's very interesting. Can you provide any further readings on that? However I think the Pakistanis would prefer their Barbur cruise missile...

In the quote it says my nick, but I dint write it. You are quoting someone else.

[powerslavenegi]

I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind.

Hey if you are so cranked with Falstaff's post why dont you tackle it on merit instead of resorting to blame game.

Hey btw you seem to have a nice sense of humour here for for other members to enjoy
Yeah there are some nutcases in the north western part of the country thanks to the Anti-Soviet CIA sponsored war in the 80's. They are now being taken out in the new "War on Terror"...in which Pakistan is again a front line ally .
I assume 'They' refer to Taliban,and who created em .... go figure ? ;)

I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. They pose a threat to the entrie indian ocean region and could aim their Bra-mice at EU states. If extemist hindus can carry tridents and burn down nuns and churches....{{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

That post sums it up what has U-214 got to do with Indian sub continent ,why your posts have to be so India centric if you find anyones comments about Pakistan or related issues offensive or out of the place why you need cry foul about Indian military assets.:unknown .

[gf0012-aust]

This thread is closed for a short while the merits of it re-opening are discussed with Web and the other Mods.

[WebMaster]

Okay, I am going to re-open this thread, please follow these guidelines if you want to stick around DefenceTalk:

THE DOs

Discuss U-214 (its a naval SUBMARINE weapon system... so post accordingly) capabilities
Why Pakistan Navy needs this capability?
How it can alter the strategic naval and military balance in Pakistan's favor?
What other weapons systems can increase or decrease its capability?
What other options are available for Pakistan navy as alternative to U-214 naval submarine weapon system?The DON'Ts (lets see if I can put these in nice words, if anybody is caught making comments on points below, they will face a direct ban - no questions, ifs or buts.)

NO yip yapping about "what if Pakistan is taken over by extremists..." It's stupid, really. Discuss that here (http://www.worldaffairstalk.com/forums/)!

For Pakistan, it is a strategic military and naval decision... not political. I don't think anybody in Pakistan is going to use U-214 purchase for or against their political standings, why comment on it!!!??? Discuss that here (http://www.worldaffairstalk.com/forums/)!
There will be NO mention of such and such technology going from Pakistan to other countries. Open a different thread if you feel so strongly about that.
DO NOT make any comments or quote any comments that could potentially lead to 3 DON'Ts mentioned above and your ban! :D
Don't disappoint the DT mod team... :)

Thanks and enjoy!

[ahussains]

Nice post Webby ...

So u start it what advantages Pakistan got by having U-214 Technically or Stratigically as compare to Marlin, Scorpean, or Agusta 90 B

[BilalK]

Agosta-90B is of an older generation than U214 & Marlin. If the PN is looking towards the 2010 and 2020s, it'd be better if it looks at the newer generation - i.e U214, Scorpene, Marlin, etc.

At this point the U214 is a tangible item whereas Marlin is a concept, design or at best a blueprint for construction. The PN can evaluate the U214 and get a good idea of the submarine's performance as well as see physical weakenesses and work to solve them. Note if the PN chose Marlin, the first PN Marlin would be the first Marlin ever. Potential problems, technical faults, etc, will arise and it can become a headache for the navy.

[aaaditya]

Agosta-90B is of an older generation than U214 & Marlin. If the PN is looking towards the 2010 and 2020s, it'd be better if it looks at the newer generation - i.e U214, Scorpene, Marlin, etc.

At this point the U214 is a tangible item whereas Marlin is a concept, design or at best a blueprint for construction. The PN can evaluate the U214 and get a good idea of the submarine's performance as well as see physical weakenesses and work to solve them. Note if the PN chose Marlin, the first PN Marlin would be the first Marlin ever. Potential problems, technical faults, etc, will arise and it can become a headache for the navy.

not necessarily,particularly if the marlin is an evolutionary design based on the scorpene.

[Waylander]

Every first design has its flaws. That's the problem with having the first vessel of every class.

[EnigmaNZ]

I think whatever submarine type you buy, it is going to be good at it's purpose, if simply due to the intence competition. So it comes down to delivery times, price, offsets, rules attacted (such as whether you are free to build additional platforms for yourself and/or others) etc.
I am not sure about the french aip system. I'd be happier if it used diesel rather than ethanol, it's just one more fuel type. Same for the current fuel cells, unless the hydrogen was created onboard by reforming diesel.

[radiosilence]

Touching on Waylander's point, it will also take longer for Marlin to be inducted into service. A lot of testing needs to be done on a new design before its ready which is one of the reasons why the U-214 will be more attractive for a potential buyer right now.

[ahussains]

Marlins and the scorpions are the same versions ?

[Falstaff]

Marlins and the scorpions are the same versions ?

It seems the Marlin is an evolved Scorpene incorporating some innovations from the Barracuda-program, notably the X-rudder.
What I found about the Marlin class you can read in the Marlin-class thread (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6202).


I am not sure about the french aip system. I'd be happier if it used diesel rather than ethanol, it's just one more fuel type. Same for the current fuel cells, unless the hydrogen was created onboard by reforming diesel.

It seems they will in the near future, which is quite a step forward I think. During my research on the Marlin however I had the impression the MESMA system will be a dead end (see link above, bottom of page 1).
As for the fuel cells the problem is you deal easier handling for efficiency... Probably depends on the country you sell it to, if they have the logistics and technical abilities to handle pure hydrogen it probably is the better choice. But I think they should develop an alternative version using diesel or ethanol so the potential customer can chose.