New Generation western fighters plague with failures?

[Awang se]

I've read in the net that several Advance Fighter of western design was haunted with a lot of problems. For examples, in the mock fight between the MIG-31 and an EF-2000, the MIGs were able to outmaneuver the EF-2000 easily. and not to mention the F-22 that was said already overbudget and the performance is not as good as it's hope. also we can look at JSF. the cost to maintain the aircraft is very high, yet they cannot defeat the SU-30MK in the dogfight.

[gf0012-aust]

I've read in the net that several Advance Fighter of western design was haunted with a lot of problems. For examples, in the mock fight between the MIG-31 and an EF-2000, the MIGs were able to outmaneuver the EF-2000 easily. and not to mention the F-22 that was said already overbudget and the performance is not as good as it's hope. also we can look at JSF. the cost to maintain the aircraft is very high, yet they cannot defeat the SU-30MK in the dogfight.

I don't know where you get your intel. But here is mine, Based on contact with German Pilots, Indians and US aggressor pilots, and my work in the defence industry.

The su27's and all assoc family members have terrible maint schedules, it doesn't matter if the engine is half the price of a comparable euro or US platform if it on ratio is going to be down 2.5 times more often and thus is compromising your sortie capability. Ditto for the Mig 2x series.

I'd be curious to know where you got your fantastic info on a 30mk outflying a JSF. Its news to me, and its new to people on the project.
Seeing that development and operations is not available for release, then all comments about its capability are bull and fantasy.

The thing that a lot of "teenage flyers" forget is that the platform is only 1 element in the combat mix.

On that basis, at a south east asian level, you really need to look at Singapore. It has a balanced capability and is able to mix it up and win against any airforce in the region except Australia.

Don't get me wrong, they are fine aircraft, excellent basic platforms, but if it was possible I would take a SU-2x, SU-3x, Mig 3x and give it to the Israelis for a year for a re-craft of its entire electronics packages, EW systems, ordinance etc... - then, and only then, would you have an airfrane that would be of absolute lethality.

As for the engines, let the germans build them, at least they'd run to acceptable maint schedules. The aircraft were designed as part of the soviet/CIS military doctrine. Understand that, and then you understand why the build quality of the majority of russian major capital assets is not acceptable to a substantial number of modern militaries.

Finally, I was part of a procurement assessment team that looked at evaluating SU-30's when they were offered to a regional airforce. They were in the first group of aircraft eliminated as not being suitable for a variety of reasons.

You really need to speak to pilots and techs rather than look at magazines and google..

[Winter]

Quite right gf0012....

Awang se, every development program or piece of military equipment has its problems....As does everything. I do not think you are doing the 'western' fighter aircraft any justice.

:frosty

[gf0012-aust]

Quite right gf0012....

Awang se, every development program or piece of military equipment has its problems....As does everything. I do not think you are doing the 'western' fighter aircraft any justice.

:frosty

Thats ok.

My point also is that people who are looking at 4th or 5th generation fighters as dogfighters demonstrate little knowledge about modern warfare.

Why would any current platform seek to close up for a gunfight when they can shoot the other bogie down from up to 120 kms away?
You have a full AWAC's suite, C4i intel telling you where the enemy aircraft are at every flight point.

In real terms, they're at risk and will be shot down unless they have effective countermeasures. That in the current scenario is highly unlikely as no one in the south eastern region has effective EW measures in place.

Australia has OTH horizon radar that is able to detect stealth aircraft. Singapore has AWACs, Australia's AWACs will be in service within 3 years.
Both of these countries are the strongest militaries in the region because of their force MIX.

A single platform in isolation of an effective integrated mix is a moving target. I would not like to be an SU-30mk pilot in the South East Asian region, there are significant other assets in the theatre that can kill it before it can do anything.

Sth East Asia is fortunate that nobody wants to go to war over some perceived wrongdoings. It would be a whole lot smarter to forget their nationalist egos and try to get along with each other.

Crapping on the US or the Europeans demonstrates a poor comprehension of how far behind some militaries are in this region about issues such as doctrine and mix. It also demonstrates a completely inadequate knowledge of the technical capabilities and quality of military equipment.
I'd suggest that the next time that someone goes to an airshow that they look at a Mig29, or an SU-3x that they look at the difference in build quality to a Rafale, Typhoon etc.. its like comparing bamboo to teak when you're about to build a house.

[Awang se]

That's why i put it here, so i will get feedback, and at last i will know the truth. thanks anyway for the comment. now i know it's not entirely true. sorry for anyone who feel offended. i didn't mean it.

One more thing, is it true that the Aussie is going to acquire JSF, and they canceling it because of the high maintainance and operational cost? if someone care to enlightent me?

[Londo Molari]

Flankers (Su-27/Su-30) can outfly ANYTHING.

So obviously they are more manouverable than the JSF, EF-2000 and even the F-22.

but these other aircrafts are a whole generation ahead. They have better avionics, electronic warfare, counter measures, jamming, radars, weapons.

So they would probably beat the Russian aircraft 9 times out of 10 in beyond visual range combat, and not give the Russian aircraft a chance to get into a dogfight.

Dogfights are less and less relevant among the major powers today. Though non-BVR airforces train to corner enemies into dogfights.

[gf0012-aust]

the australians will bet getting the JSF. the "expense" to maintain it is not even costed yet. its not even considered to be a reason to NOT buy them.

the Su30mk is just as vulnerable to an all aspect air to air missile as a
Mig-29. thrust vectoring engines (as in the 30mk) were rendered neutral by the AA AAM. We aren't talking air combat from 10 years ago, we're in a new air combat paradigm shift altogether.

i'd love to know where you think that an Su-30mk can oufly a JSF, Eurofighter etc...

There is no information in the public domain about ANY JSF, E2000, Rafale or F22 flight characteristics.

[Aussie Digger]

In the most recent decision of Australia's review of it's defence capability plan the Australian Defence Minister confirmed that the Joint Strike Fighter (F35) will remain Australia's replacement for it's FA/18 and F/RF - 111 fleet and that Australia expects to have it's F35's delivered from 2012 and onwards. He also stated that they remained firmly committed to replacing our 106 strong FA/18/F111 fleet with 100 F35's, thus ensuring that Australia retains a "strong Air Combat and Strike Capability". In addition they're continuing to upgrade our Hornets with the new Joint Helmet Cueing System, a new Electronic Warfare System, a new targeting pod, a new standoff land attack weapon (the Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missile, AGM158 - JASSM), JDAM's, upgraded Laser guided bombs, a new anti radiation missle (most likely upgraded HARM's) and a new "Littoral attack weapon" (possibly Maverick or Brimstone or some such weapon). In addition to this our F111's are going to continue their upgrades with the new AGM 142 standoff missile being fully integrated, plus JDAM's will more than likely be integrated as well. With all of this, plus our new AWACS (A30 - Wedgetails), new air to air refuelling tankers, new Global Hawk UAV's, plus a 'short range' UAV, everything is looking peachy for our Air Force.

[Aussie Digger]

Sorry, forget who it was that was bagging Western Fighters but I think you forget one thing. The American 'Teen Series' of fighters (F/14, F15. F16 and F18) have NEVER been beaten in actual air to air combat. Why would the next generation be any worse? It takes more than simply a technically better platform to win in any type of combat. What you need to look at is the 'whole picture' everything from pilot training, to logistical support and aircraft maintenance, to pilot ability and experienc ,to the support available to the actual warfighters in terms of C4ISREW. This means your Command and Control, Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance and Electronic Warfare capabilities. It's a REALLY high tech area Air Combat and to simplify it by stating that SU30MKI etc, can fly a 'Cobra' manoevre and can therefore destroy anything else in combat is a bit ridiculous. Iraq and Serbia had Mig29's, which according to numerous "experts" were far superior to F15's and yet they were defeated time and time again in Air to Air combat. I'm not syaing SU27 - 30 aren't good planes, it's just that there's a lot more to it than a simple comparison between publicly available unclassified statistics. Cheers.

[umair]

Actually one of the TEENS (an F/A18) was shot down by an Iraqi Mig25 during the opening hours of Gulf War 1.Also one PAF F16 was shot down in the 80s but that was a "Blue On Blue" incident which happened as two Falcons from no14 squadron were engaged with4 Su 22 fitters of the Afghan/ Soviet airforce.

[gf0012-aust]

Actually one of the TEENS (an F/A18) was shot down by an Iraqi Mig25 during the opening hours of Gulf War 1.Also one PAF F16 was shot down in the 80s but that was a "Blue On Blue" incident which happened as two Falcons from no14 squadron were engaged with4 Su 22 fitters of the Afghan/ Soviet airforce.

AFAIK Not ONE Iraqi jet got off the ground to do combat, IIRC they were all bolting over to Iran to try and save themselves,

Much like the 1999 war where Australian SAS captured over 70 migs, mils and Sukhois on the ground. Another 30 were found buried.

The iraqi air force is or was not a patch on even the Libyans. AT least the Libyans were willing to try and fight rather than run,,

[Aussie Digger]

Really? I wasn't aware of the F/18 being shot down. Well the US teen fighters have still got a better success record than any rival aircraft.

[gf0012-aust]

Actually one of the TEENS (an F/A18) was shot down by an Iraqi Mig25 during the opening hours of Gulf War 1.Also one PAF F16 was shot down in the 80s but that was a "Blue On Blue" incident which happened as two Falcons from no14 squadron were engaged with4 Su 22 fitters of the Afghan/ Soviet airforce.

The following stats are Declassified results of the Gulf War

Coalition Aircraft Losses: 75 (63 U.S., 12 Allied)

Fixed wing, 37 combat, 15 noncombat

U.S. losses, 28 combat, 12 noncombat

No U.S. losses in air-to-air engagements

Helicopters, 23 (all U.S.): 5 combat, 18 noncombat

[gf0012-aust]

Declassified Iraqi losses

Estimated Iraqi Losses: (Reported by U.S. Central Command, March 7, 1991)

36 fixed-wing aircraft in air-to-air engagements

6 helicopters in air-to-air engagements

68 fixed- and 13 rotary-wing aircraft destroyed on the ground

137 Iraqi aircraft flown to Iran

3,700 of 4,280 battle tanks

2,400 of 2,870 assorted other armored vehicles

2,600 of 3,110 assorted artillery pieces

19 naval ships sunk, 6 damaged

42 divisions made combat-ineffective

Enemy prisoners of war captured: U.S. forces released 71,204 to Saudi control.

[Red aRRow]

A Turkish F-16 was also shot down in 1996 (I think) by a Greek Mirage-2000 with an Air to Air missile in an engagement over International waters. The Turkish pilot was killed and the wreckage was found in International waters.
This ended the F-16s perfect record.

[gf0012-aust]

A Turkish F-16 was also shot down in 1996 (I think) by a Greek Mirage-2000 with an Air to Air missile in an engagement over International waters. The Turkish pilot was killed and the wreckage was found in International waters.
This ended the F-16s perfect record.

I have no record of any air to air losses in any of my records, but however have found the following. AFAIK no F-16's have been lost to air to air combat.

HOSTILE ACTIONS" IN AEGEAN BY TURKISH AIR FORCE
Macedonian Press Agency ^ | WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY 2003


Posted on 05/14/2003 1:59:13 PM PDT by Phatheon


HOSTILE ACTIONS" IN AEGEAN BY TURKISH AIR FORCE Athens, 14 May 2003 (11:19 UTC+2)

New violations of Athens FIR and Greek airspace were committed by the Turkish Air Force yesterday, with a climax of harassing Greek fighter jets during scheduled maneuvers. Such an incident of clear and direct obstruction of Greek military exercises has never before been recorded.

This action was characterized as “hostile” by circles of the Ministry of Defense, because it violates all rules of international law and there is a great chance of an accident occurring. The incident was noted at 11am yesterday, when two armed Turkish F-16 fighters illegally entered the Athens FIR and harassed three Phantom aircrafts participating in small scale aeronautic military drill codenamed “Triena” (trident).

The Turkish F-16s followed the Greek F-4s to a very low altitude of 1000ft, obstructing the procedure of attacking a target in the sea. The specific target had been towed by the “Doxa” gunboat, while the shots fired by the Greek F-4s were carried out with training ammo.

The specific region within the Athens FIR had been committed in time with a NOTAM issued by the Air Force. The Turkish fighters, equipped with air-to-air missiles, were intercepted by Greek fighters. The Ministry of National Defense will send an electronic depiction of the incident to NATO, while the Foreign Ministry has been informed, so that the Greek Ambassador to Ankara can carry out an official diplomatic protest.

Yesterday, approximately 34 Turkish fighters in 14 formations carried out 15 violations of the Athens FIR and 44 violations of Greek national air space.

In nine cases there were intense dogfights, since the Turkish pilots refused to leave the Athens FIR, even though they had been “intercepted”.

Meanwhile, in the framework of the discussion of the Measures for the Construction of Trust (MOE) in the Aegean, Athens and Ankara, there has been an agreement on only one point: Both sides informing each other on military exercises, so that there are no problems in the area and the time during which war games are carried out. In harassing the Greek fighters, the Turkish military leadership directly violated that agreement, while discussions for the materialization of the MOE have frozen.

[Awang se]

You know what i think is the cause of overbudget in F-22 program. They meddling with the whole new concept in aerodynamics. so when there is a problem they don't have any previous reference to refer to. so they resolve to trial and error. they modified, test, fail and modified, test, fail again and again until the fail word turn to success. that's why it took so long and costly. anyway is it true that f-22 is a fully stealth aircraft? from what i know, when u resolved to stealth design that means aerodynamic performance will decrease.

[gf0012-aust]

You know what i think is the cause of overbudget in F-22 program. They meddling with the whole new concept in aerodynamics. so when there is a problem they don't have any previous reference to refer to. so they resolve to trial and error. they modified, test, fail and modified, test, fail again and again until the fail word turn to success. that's why it took so long and costly. anyway is it true that f-22 is a fully stealth aircraft? from what i know, when u resolved to stealth design that means aerodynamic performance will decrease.

Modern aircraft can be proof of concept developed completely via a computer. The Americans have a somewhat consistent history of "blowing out" their military budgets.

the 22 is not a fully stealth aircraft. the deck performance of this aircraft is superior to any current known platforms.

the f22, rafale, and f117, f-16's are all aircraft that "fly" due to computers. in a conventional aerodynamic sense they are not "flyable". because of the computer control systems, they are without doubt, the most sophisticated plane in service.

stealthy aircraft are not tasked to act as raiders and shooters, their role is completely different to conventional fighters. the f22 is not meant to act like a f117.

afaik, there is a full squadron of these planes in service.

[Awang se]

I think all. modern 4th+ generation fighter is a "fly by wire" aircraft. Aircraft tend to loose their maneuverability by increase in speed. So the design of the aircraft was made aerodynamicaly unstable. and then they put a flight control computer to make the aircraft fly. Take example of the MIG-25. that is the fastest combat fighter in the world and no other fighter yet to challenge it. but still, it has a very low maneuverability and it was never intended to get in close for Close quarters combat.

[Red aRRow]

I have no record of any air to air losses in any of my records, but however have found the following. AFAIK no F-16's have been lost to air to air combat.


Sorry for being a weeeeeee bit off topic but i found these links. The Turkish F-16 was being piloted by Nail Erdogan. It happened in October 1996 and was kept secret by both Greece and Turkey. Apparently two days later the Turkish shot down a Mirage-2000 as reprisal. I also read this story on Janes website.

LINK HERE (http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/05_30_03/for.htm#f10)

[gf0012-aust]

Sorry for being a weeeeeee bit off topic but i found these links. The Turkish F-16 was being piloted by Nail Erdogan. It happened in October 1996 and was kept secret by both Greece and Turkey. Apparently two days later the Turkish shot down a Mirage-2000 as reprisal. I also read this story on Janes website.

LINK HERE (http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/05_30_03/for.htm#f10)[/url]

Thanks Shamayel

I had it listed as a training loss. :eek

[umair]

Tha makes the F16's kill ratio 61:1 still pretty good :roll

[Awang se]

It's a miracle that this incident didn't trigger a full scale war.

[Awang se]

I just got a look at the video about the world aircraft recently, and saw something that i thought impossible till now. What i saw is a SU-30MK doing a double 360 degrees summersault for few second with 0 forward speed and without losing altitude. Is that a real thing or just a camera trick.

[gf0012-aust]

what air show? i have been to bregeut for the last 3 years and have not seen any dble somersaults...

are you saying that it forward rolled on axis with no drop in altitude?

[Gremlin29]

It's possible, the maneuver would most likey be performed at the termination of a vertical or near vertical climb. I reiterate what's been said in the past however that these types of maneuvers, as impressive as they are have very little applicability in aerial combat today.

[Awang se]

what air show? i have been to bregeut for the last 3 years and have not seen any dble somersaults...

are you saying that it forward rolled on axis with no drop in altitude?

Have u go to the currently held LIMA 2003 in Langkawi? I heard they do that in there too.

[Awang se]

It's possible, the maneuver would most likey be performed at the termination of a vertical or near vertical climb. I reiterate what's been said in the past however that these types of maneuvers, as impressive as they are have very little applicability in aerial combat today.

Fom what i heard, they not doing it on the climb or near climb. it was on a perfect forward horizontal move when the Flanker nose suddenly climb up and make a complete summersault while maintaining forward move and current altitude. at least that what i heard. i kind of puzzled either.

[gf0012-aust]

what air show? i have been to bregeut for the last 3 years and have not seen any dble somersaults...

are you saying that it forward rolled on axis with no drop in altitude?

Have u go to the currently held LIMA 2003 in Langkawi? I heard they do that in there too.

I did, and I don't recall it being performed. I've seen the cobra done though. They are impressive "show moves" but are tactically useless. :)

[Awang se]

I think i've been misinformed. But i still have the Video though. you should Try to find a video CD about the world military aircraft. maybe you can see it yourself and give your judgement.

[gf0012-aust]

I think i've been misinformed. But i still have the Video though. you should Try to find a video CD about the world military aircraft. maybe you can see it yourself and give your judgement.

Would you mind giving me the CD details? I'll see if I can find it then.

[Awang se]

I think it sound quite like "the weapons of Destruction of the 21st century". they have many series though about the air, sea and land weapons.