Houston: I think we have a problem!

[Ths]

I think we have a problem with thread destruction any time we even remotely approach the subject of China:

1. I think some have a problem with distinguishing between evaluation of intend and capability. The least doubt of Chinese equipment not being the worlds best is met by an intense flaming of being anti-chinese (well I for one is getting there) if we not wholeheartedly support China talking over other countries.

2. Interesting threads are being closed because the threads are overflowing with more or less prepostereous claims, which are treated with respect in so far as the dubious claims are countered. I've tried to cut such inane arguments short - with very little success - and gotten a request to try to get my point across in another way. Not entirely fair in my view - on the other hand who cares about a broken nail in the heat of battle.

3. I find it serious that the freedom of debate is being seriously curbed by people that don't have the first notion of free debate. Sort of "Muhammed cartoon" responses to anything that can be construed as critisism of chinese paranoia and dreams. Example: My critisism of the exagerated claims for the J-10 was flooded with hurt feelings - quite drowning my assesment that the plane is probably quite good at what it is designed to do: Shoot down cruise missiles. This contention is supported by the hint involuntarily spilled: The basing of the J-10.

4. The problem is by no means unique: StrategyPage has had its fair share, though there it has mostly been muslim flamers. It is not a problem of debate with people that don't want debate - that is a lost cause anyhow - but that the rest of us are cut off and curbed: The responses of Waylander, Gf-0012, Grand Danois, Galrahn, swerve and others are simplly drowned and the time they can devote is used refudiating bogus claims instead of correcting misconception made in good faith and enlighten the rest of us.

5. I don't have a solution, but we need to preserve this breating space for a direct and productive defence debate that is sorely needed as the media are out to sell copies (that's their business) and the majority of the population is more impressed with Dolly Parton's chest size than the range of the F-22. Not knocking Dolly Parton and her outstanding assets; but ...

[Waylander]

Well said. :)

[Tasman]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Ths has said.

As an example of my concerns the China thread, Is China capable of crippling US CSF's in Chinese ses?, has had some very interesting discussion but it is, IMO, getting bogged down by outlandish claims with little or no supporting evidence that then sends members off in a frenzy trying to counteract them. Also the discussions quickly turn political - one statement leads to a response, which leads to another response, etc, and the thread is suddenly in danger of being closed. This has just happened in the Another new fighter jet for Korea in Military Aviation thead which has (correctly I believe) been locked for a few days because a discussion about an aircraft for South Korea turned into, to quote our Webmaster, "nationalistic rhetoric, China and its borders".

I don't have an answer other than dealing with regular offenders in some way. I don't like seeing members banned unless they blatantly ignore the rules, but perhaps people whose responses show they are regularly getting hot under the collar (I think we can all be excused occasionally) or whose responses consistently disrupt the flow of threads, could be suspended from that particular thread for a period of time (a few days might be enough). I don't know if this is technically possible but it would be something in between a warning and a complete membership ban.

Cheers :(

[merocaine]

come on freedom of expression is'ent been curbed on this forum, I for one can tell when a post becomes wishful thinking, the best thing to do is ignore the post unless you really feel it needs to be rebutted.
Since most posters are western I think those kind of threads are not the norm, but when when they do occur sometimes I feel some of the posters can be little dismissive of the opposing points of view....a little diplomancy goes a long way, we're not all defence professionals!

[Todjaeger]

come on freedom of expression is'ent been curbed on this forum, I for one can tell when a post becomes wishful thinking, the best thing to do is ignore the post unless you really feel it needs to be rebutted.
Since most posters are western I think those kind of threads are not the norm, but when when they do occur sometimes I feel some of the posters can be little dismissive of the opposing points of view....a little diplomancy goes a long way, we're not all defence professionals!

I agree with freedom of expression, but I think the concern is more about how some threads have been hijacked and/or devolved into "my country Brainania can beat your country Pinkieland" arguments.:D Such arguments are long on emotion and nationalism while being short on facts and rational discussion, and as such tend not to serve or enrich the readers or participants.

As for being dismissive of the opposing view, yes, that can happen. Particularly when the view is an unsupported assertion which can/is rebutted and then repeated after the rebuttal, again without support. The fix for that which comes to mind, and has been employed before, would be for posts to be edited or deleted when something is asserted but unsupported. Not sure if the mods would go for that though.

Fortunately the spat of attempts at political discussions has died down. Last month it seemed there were a number of attempts to get threads going that had little or nothing to do with defence issues.

-Cheers

[Tasman]

I agree with freedom of expression, but I think the concern is more about how some threads have been hijacked and/or devolved into "my country Brainania can beat your country Pinkieland" arguments.:D Such arguments are long on emotion and nationalism while being short on facts and rational discussion, and as such tend not to serve or enrich the readers or participants.

-Cheers

I think you have put this well.

As for being dismissive of the opposing view, yes, that can happen. Particularly when the view is an unsupported assertion which can/is rebutted and then repeated after the rebuttal, again without support. The fix for that which comes to mind, and has been employed before, would be for posts to be edited or deleted when something is asserted but unsupported. Not sure if the mods would go for that though.



It would be good if the deletion of unsupported comments could be done but this would be a difficult and time consuming task for the mods. I'd hate to see them spending all their time doing this rather than contributing their knowledge and expertise to the discussions.

Fortunately the spat of attempts at political discussions has died down. Last month it seemed there were a number of attempts to get threads going that had little or nothing to do with defence issues.


Let's hope this positive trend continues. :)

Cheers

[gf0012-aust]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Ths has said.



Ditto.

I have to confess to being absolutely frustrated at having to try and have reasonable debate when its apparent that the other party is driven by jingoism (fueled usually by internet information at the expense of real world knowledge).

quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time than spend it arguing with some people motivated purely by issues of national pride rather than rational debate. Often those people in here with actual experience are trying to steer these debates towards more balanced discussions are just frustrated and "bullied by association" out of further participation. Thats a shame as there are some very very competent members in here - and I not only refer to the Def Professionals Group.

I find it doubly frustrating when its apparent that some of the more nationalistic posters don't understand basic concepts, and yet feel the need to argue against people who actually have direct operational experience (in a lot of cases).

I can always tell when its school holidays (unfortunately).

Thankfully, the volume of adversarial threads has lessened.

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

[Grand Danois]

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

And you had the luck to do some planespotting? :D

[Tasman]

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

Welcome back gf. I've missed you contributions during the last week.

Cheers

[gf0012-aust]

And you had the luck to do some planespotting? :D

News travels fast! I certainly did. I was lucky enough to see a large flight (7) of F-22's, (2) KC-10's and (2) C-17's roll into Honolulu.

Plus there was a B-52 rotating out, and which I'm guessing was going for a run over to afghanistan.

[Waylander]

Ah you lucky one.

Especially the F-22 would be lovely to see in real. :)

[Ths]

Well I have none of them under my belt - to old I guess: Somewhere in between the Sopwith Camel and the F-22.

Wellcome back Gary. I generally look first at your posts - and conclude by the vituperence if the other are worth reading.

[cheetah]

I think we have a problem with thread destruction any time we even remotely approach the subject of China:
let me ask u a question.how would u like it when people started saying the same about American tech as u like to annalyze the chinese.
1. I think some have a problem with distinguishing between evaluation of intend and capability. The least doubt of Chinese equipment not being the worlds best is met by an intense flaming of being anti-chinese (well I for one is getting there) if we not wholeheartedly support China talking over other countries.
just as some one is starting these threads to say Americans equipment is better and Chinese is bad i guess other sides didn't share your view.i don't see any thing wrong with having confidence in your own technology.but don't expect others to not to have the same .
2. Interesting threads are being closed because the threads are overflowing with more or less prepostereous claims, which are treated with respect in so far as the dubious claims are countered. I've tried to cut such inane arguments short - with very little success - and gotten a request to try to get my point across in another way. Not entirely fair in my view - on the other hand who cares about a broken nail in the heat of battle.
again what you are saying is you are with us or against us.my way or the highway.
3. I find it serious that the freedom of debate is being seriously curbed by people that don't have the first notion of free debate. Sort of "Muhammad cartoon" responses to anything that can be construed as criticism of Chinese paranoia and dreams. Example: My criticism of the exaggerated claims for the J-10 was flooded with hurt feelings - quite drowning my assessment that the plane is probably quite good at what it is designed to do: Shoot down cruise missiles. This contention is supported by the hint involuntarily spilled: The basing of the J-10.

Its so funny in the west how it is OK for the Westerners to talk about Muslims.and call all sorts of names yet even i person who dares to say any thing against Jews is crucified with in minutes double slandered is it.or freedom of speech only exist as long as Jews are of the table.but jewish media can go nuts in the name of freedom.:onfloorl:
your criticism for j-10.just a question why do u criticize others.Americans didn't get to raptors from the day 1 it took them some time do u agree.yet Chinese are new in this field considering that i say -j 10 is hell of a jump for them.And they should be proud.i mean i look at it this way in USA most people prefer to buy foreign cars yet when you go on line forums Americans are bragging about how superior they are in there technology.:onfloorl:
4. The problem is by no means unique: StrategyPage has had its fair share, though there it has mostly been muslim flamers. It is not a problem of debate with people that don't want debate - that is a lost cause anyhow - but that the rest of us are cut off and curbed: The responses of Waylander, Gf-0012, Grand Danois, Galrahn, swerve and others are simplly drowned and the time they can devote is used refudiating bogus claims instead of correcting misconception made in good faith and enlighten the rest of us.
Yet again you are crying same over and over again Muslims are bad you are good Muslims are flamers yet you are calm.you are good with technology they are bad you can handle any situation as long as every body do as u say .u can say bad about Muslims and they should counter ya without taking offense to it. you have the right to do as u please others should ask permission. if they can or cant.fixing bogus claims u said how is one to achieve that when the other side is totally close minded.what ever fox and CNN said is it.yet Al-jazeera wanted to operate in USA license was denied.Muslims are captured and put in jail without any charges for months some time years.what have the Americans done against that have you shown any concern or every time u see a Muslim u call police as he looked at ya.go look in your own country and do tell us all if that so called freedom of speech is for every body of just 1 segment of the society enjoys that.
i will ask u a question answer that (i no u will not answer it)
if i wanna send more then 1000 dollars out side of USA. iam not allowed.and i get no tax receipt for that money while u can send as much as u like to Israel and its all tax deductible).

5. I don't have a solution, but we need to preserve this breating space for a direct and productive defence debate that is sorely needed as the media are out to sell copies (that's their business) and the majority of the population is more impressed with Dolly Parton's chest size than the range of the F-22. Not knocking Dolly Parton and her outstanding assets; but .
solution is simple treat every body same.look at every body with the same eye.every body has the right to fair trial.(as long as its a Muslim its behind bars and no need for a trial)Most of the big companies that have taken (senior citizens and other people that are about to retire)to the cleaners are given a slap on the wrist.while a guy driving a cab is put in jail with key thrown at the bottom of the sea.cause he is Muslim.
Any Muslim fighting to defend his or her own country is a terrorist.yet the invading army is there to give them freedom:onfloorl: .cause the Americans said so.oh we must not also forget elections in Muslim countries only count if American supported idiot come in power.other wise it wasn't fair so it doesn't count.but you are right Muslims have no right to be angry.they should welcome Americans and take all insults as they come.while the Americans take out there countries resources in the name of freedom:nutkick.
wake and and smell the coffee just cause most in USA cant see it cause of media Base doesn't mean the rest of the world is blind.and Muslims will keep putting up with this double slandered. give me a break.

[Waylander]

You are not aware of the fact that he (And others here) is not an american aren't you?

Despite this I think most people here have no problems with critics of systems/tactics/capabilities of any country as long as it is done in a reasonable and logic way backed up by facts and experience.

I am totally against any kind of baseless flaming against someones country totally unimportant if it is against China, the US, France or Ivory Coast.

But I agree that it looks like that special themes here tend to turn into a flame war faster than others.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

There are new threads running right now if you care to look were preople are critisising thier OWN systems. ie the Australian sea sprite problems. The rest of us can critisize ourselvs or each other, but not chinise under any sercemstances? why?

[Schumacher]

News travels fast! I certainly did. I was lucky enough to see a large flight (7) of F-22's, (2) KC-10's and (2) C-17's roll into Honolulu.

Plus there was a B-52 rotating out, and which I'm guessing was going for a run over to afghanistan.

Those F-22 are the ones on their way to Japan ? Just read their deployment there has been postponed for the 2nd time, no reasons given though.

[gf0012-aust]

Those F-22 are the ones on their way to Japan ? Just read their deployment there has been postponed for the 2nd time, no reasons given though.

I haven't heard of delays. In fact of the ones I saw, a flight was on its way out.

[Schumacher]

I haven't heard of delays. In fact of the ones I saw, a flight was on its way out.

http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/national/news/20070212p2a00m0na017000c.html

[Rich]

Actually I just dont know how to discuss terrorism without some peoples feelings getting hurt thinking Muslims are getting flamed. If you remember many months ago I pointed out how terrorist elements in Afghanistan were getting , shelter, rest, and support in the tribal areas of Pakistan and I thought some people here, including Mods, were going to bust a gut. I was accused of being a "flamer" and what not.

Recent events have proved I was right, tho many of you no doubt already knew that. I was also right when I posted Iran was supporting factions of the Iraq insurgency.

So what? When supported by facts when we post in this forum is there some Politically correct litmus test we must follow? Dont get me wrong, this forum is better then most.

I know I dont need to explain this to anyone but Waylander but I make reference to culture and history because such understanding is critical to understanding and anticipating strategy. Thats why I would talk about the capacity for patience in Asian culture, or the revered place the Army has in Turkish society, the ability of Americans to tolerate waste in military spending...ect But most of you knew that right?

I'm going to put this waylander guy on ignore because I'm sick of him following me around, butting in on threads hes not involved in, and insulting me. Apparently he thinks hes a Mod. and frankly I have no stomach for pro-longed flames or little politically correct games.

I value the forum to much. And its easy to avoid flames. All you have to do is not open the thread again. Anyway, have a good day everyone.:)

[radiosilence]

^Some of your comments about Muslims and the Muslim World comes off as being Bigoted.

[Waylander]

It is not as if I am blaming everybody and everything about being bigot when it comes to certain areas in the ME all the time.

We talked in this thread about the problem that often when the topic is a little bit wide and about China or the ME we have flame wars going on.

But it is not very helpfull that you often enough have little (Or bigger) statements in your posts about Arabs being inferior or at least could be missinterpreted this way.

But if you are fine with igoring me it is ok.

Nevertheless I hope that the mods are looking at both sides and I am confident that they decide in the right way and I accept their decisions.

[merocaine]

It is not as if I am blaming everybody and everything about being bigot when it comes to certain areas in the ME all the time.

We talked in this thread about the problem that often when the topic is a little bit wide and about China or the ME we have flame wars going on.

But it is not very helpfull that you often enough have little (Or bigger) statements in your posts about Arabs being inferior or at least could be missinterpreted this way.

But if you are fine with igoring me it is ok.

Nevertheless I hope that the mods are looking at both sides and I am confident that they decide in the right way and I accept their decisions.

just be thankful your not being accused of being French!:)

[cheetah]

Actually I just dont know how to discuss terrorism without some peoples feelings getting hurt thinking Muslims are getting flamed. If you remember many months ago I pointed out how terrorist elements in Afghanistan were getting , shelter, rest, and support in the tribal areas of Pakistan and I thought some people here, including Mods, were going to bust a gut. I was accused of being a "flamer" and what not.

Recent events have proved I was right, tho many of you no doubt already knew that. I was also right when I posted Iran was supporting factions of the Iraq insurgency.

So what? When supported by facts when we post in this forum is there some Politically correct litmus test we must follow? Dont get me wrong, this forum is better then most.

I know I dont need to explain this to anyone but Waylander but I make reference to culture and history because such understanding is critical to understanding and anticipating strategy. Thats why I would talk about the capacity for patience in Asian culture, or the revered place the Army has in Turkish society, the ability of Americans to tolerate waste in military spending...ect But most of you knew that right?

I'm going to put this waylander guy on ignore because I'm sick of him following me around, butting in on threads hes not involved in, and insulting me. Apparently he thinks hes a Mod. and frankly I have no stomach for pro-longed flames or little politically correct games.

I value the forum to much. And its easy to avoid flames. All you have to do is not open the thread again. Anyway, have a good day everyone.:)

The funniest thing in USA is these so called Terrorism experts.last i checked in order to become the so called expert you have to work in the field to become an expert.i mean i have flown all kinds of jets on Microsoft flight simulator as far as iam concerned iam an expert question is would any military in there right mind give me a plane to fly.this is little deeper for you rich.Rich when was the last time you left usa.u seems to have nothing but hatered towards Muslims.yet you talk about nothing but CNN OR FOX.every 1 of your posts so far is been nothing but flamatory.it is almost impossible for any body not to see that.
let me explain iraq iran 2 you.pay attention to it very very clearly.it will never be on CNN OR FOX.

Iran is a shia country.insurgency in Iraq is all wahabies and are supported by Saudi and other USA allied wahabi states.shia and wahabies don't get a long.want and example all bomb blasts and suicide bombings during shias holiest month MUharam is carried out by Al-qaeda or wahabies.now you do the math 70% of Iraqis are shias only 20% of Iraqis are wahabies and sunnies mix.there is no freaking way in hell Iran would support wahabies.(goggle it if u don't believe me about the difference).Recent visits by tony Blair and con-rice.is all been about sectarian lines.Almost all the victims of these so called bombings have been shias.it would be stupid for shias to support people that wanna kill shias.Americans cant have it both ways.if they don't wanna say nothing to there friends in Arab world as all of them are American installed puppets.That isn't Iran's fault.Deal with it.as once bugs bunny said its captains mess let captain clean it up.I remmeber one very smart and intelligent American general said .u can start a war on you own you cant finish it on your own.i believe he was retired after these comments.
cheers

[WebMaster]

Cheetah, Al-Qaeda doesn't follow "wahhabi" thought. They follow Qutb-ud-din imam from Egypt and his ideology.

And if you are following recent news about Iran supplying weapons to the Shia militias and insurgents, you wouldn't be saying it is all wahhabi/saudi. Every country that borders Iraq wants to influence the outcome in Iraq and support the groups they feel would deliver maximum strategic benefit to them in the long run when Iraq is stable.

If Saudis are supporting Sunni fighters, they are doing it for the same reasons Iranians might be for Shia fighters... same goes for Syrians and Turkish.

Anyway, let's not discuss politics in this thread. The problems being discussed here exist on all forums and each forum has different approach as to how they deal with it. We like to avoid pure political topics but would allow critical comments only if all parties consider and uphold the idea of mutual respect.

[Waylander]

just be thankful your not being accused of being French!:)

In the end he didn't call you British. :D

[Rich]

^Some of your comments about Muslims and the Muslim World comes off as being Bigoted.

For instance? I'm listening.

The funniest thing in USA is these so called Terrorism experts.last i checked in order to become the so called expert you have to work in the field to become an expert.i mean i have flown all kinds of jets on Microsoft flight simulator as far as iam concerned iam an expert question is would any military in there right mind give me a plane to fly.this is little deeper for you rich.Rich when was the last time you left usa.u seems to have nothing but hatered towards Muslims.yet you talk about nothing but CNN OR FOX.every 1 of your posts so far is been nothing but flamatory.it is almost impossible for any body not to see that.
let me explain iraq iran 2 you.pay attention to it very very clearly.it will never be on CNN OR FOX.

In order to answer something I first have to understand it. The only thing I can get out of this is "how long since you've left USA"? The answer is two years ago, which is the last time I was in Africa.

Then you accuse me of "hating Muslims". No I do not, but I will swoon with the politically correct, and obligatory, session of America guilt anyways. As for the rest of it either learn the English language or get an interpreter.

I probably both understand, and like, Muslims better then most westerners. As a young G.I. I was stationed in a Muslim country and saw firsthand the power of kindness, discipline, and unselfishness in the religion. I also remember losing friends to terrorists, of which there are many supporters, state sponsors, and sympathetic people in the Muslim world. I was an 18yo with an M16 over my shoulder, dealing with terrorist threats, before a lot of you were born. So my eyes are open my friend, and I believe in this war we had better accept the full truth behind this threat and deal with it whatever the cost.

Want to hear one of my Muslim stories? We were hitchhiking down to the coast one day, oh probably before some of you were born, and we stopped in a little village for lunch. We had sat at the table for 20 mins while the owner and workers made a point of ignoring us. There was a dirt poor Muslim family sitting nearby, you could tell they were poor by their dress and they motioned for us to sit back down after we got up to leave. The waiter came with their food, a big meal, and they picked it all up and put it down in front of us to eat. They refused money, paid their bill and left while we profusely thanked them.

Understanding Islam I knew they were ashamed how "guests" were treated and they gave us their food, and went hungry themselves, in order to "improve themselves in the eyes of God". To this day I am touched by that kindness and there have been many times when Ive seen people in need that Ive remembered that poor family and what they did for me. God does work in strange ways indeed.

So anyone that tells me I "hate all Muslims" can stick it in their ear. Ive worn a uniform most of my life and have protected others regardless of their faith or race, at times even putting my own life at risk. And my eyes are still open the next time some Prince, or General, wants to flim-flam my country, or put our soldiers at risk.

[cheetah]

Cheetah, Al-Qaeda doesn't follow "wahhabi" thought. They follow Qutb-ud-din imam from Egypt and his ideology.

And if you are following recent news about Iran supplying weapons to the Shia militias and insurgents, you wouldn't be saying it is all wahhabi/saudi. Every country that borders Iraq wants to influence the outcome in Iraq and support the groups they feel would deliver maximum strategic benefit to them in the long run when Iraq is stable.

If Saudis are supporting Sunni fighters, they are doing it for the same reasons Iranians might be for Shia fighters... same goes for Syrians and Turkish.

Anyway, let's not discuss politics in this thread. The problems being discussed here exist on all forums and each forum has different approach as to how they deal with it. We like to avoid pure political topics but would allow critical comments only if all parties consider and uphold the idea of mutual respect.

webby i wasn't trying to turn this into a political discussion.i was simply trying to explain that just cause what ever CNN AND Fox put on TV doesn't mean thats all 2 it.but you are absolutely correct we have left the topic behind and moved into a different direction.plus thank you i always thought osama was a wAhabi.but u live you learn.

[WebMaster]

Not a problem.

On a side note, the current suicidal approach that some "muslims" have towards the west and their tactics, it is ideology which was brain child of Qutb-ud-Din from Egypt, his followers also known as Muslim Brotherhood (much of the top ranks in Al-Qaeda are those that were jailed in Eqypt during the 60s and 70s and then were free to join the war in Afghanistan in 80s). For him, killing anybody from west is "okay" in Islam and thats what most of the groups and rag tag militias follow today and base their approach on extreme and out of context interpretation of the Quran.

As far as Wahhabis are concerned, their position on such matters is pretty clear. From suicide bombings to killing of innocent from anywhere - very wrong and big sin.

You can probably find more on that issue here (Thanks Ahmed for links)
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/scholars/albaani/suicide_bombing.htm
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/JIHAAD/dont_abuse_the_concept_of_jihad.htm


I do apologize for taking the topic further into more controversial issues. I guess, since everybody has had their say, we can close this one.

Thanks and enjoy!

[Gollevainen]

Ditto.

I have to confess to being absolutely frustrated at having to try and have reasonable debate when its apparent that the other party is driven by jingoism (fueled usually by internet information at the expense of real world knowledge).

quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time than spend it arguing with some people motivated purely by issues of national pride rather than rational debate. Often those people in here with actual experience are trying to steer these debates towards more balanced discussions are just frustrated and "bullied by association" out of further participation. Thats a shame as there are some very very competent members in here - and I not only refer to the Def Professionals Group.

I find it doubly frustrating when its apparent that some of the more nationalistic posters don't understand basic concepts, and yet feel the need to argue against people who actually have direct operational experience (in a lot of cases).

I can always tell when its school holidays (unfortunately).

Thankfully, the volume of adversarial threads has lessened.

On another note, I've just got back from 5 days in Seattle and 3 in Vancouver. Even though it was work, I enjoyed myself immensely!

I know exactly how you feel. If its hard in here, an international forum, try imagine doing the same in a forum that contains only Chinese issues.

During my career as a moderator in Sinodefence forum (a subsider of DT), I have came cross all the mentioned phenomenoes that THS post presented and I have really tested my limits by trying to cut the BS out of our discussion and during this I have been labeled as racist, fasist, anti-china, unprofessional....and yeas, their biggest crook, an Indian:nutkick

But thanks to Webmasters strickt zero-tolerance policy, I can proudly advertize that we in Sinodefence forum have reached at least one step away from the typical level of nationalism driven flaming that fils other forums in the internet (apparently also in here), Despite the allegations that we are pro-US and anti-chinese forum, that the nationalists, banned from SDF claim in other forums.

But during that I have also noticed, that the nationalism isent solely related to the certain nationalities, More often we now deal with US kids doing the exact the same with same faltered logic. And I have noticed also that the worst kind of stubbornes comes from western 'professionalist' that believes their own superiority and uses the profesionalist title as the final stamp to figth their own nationalist driven arguments. Thankfully, there isent many of those around, but No one isent saint and most proplems related to this issue can be solved by good moderation work.

Gollevainen.

[radiosilence]

Didn't want to start a new thread. I was wondering, how are moderators selected? Whats the criteria and who is doing the selecting?

[Rich]

You can probably find more on that issue here (Thanks Ahmed for links)
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/scholars...de_bombing.htm
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/JIHAAD/d...t_of_jihad.htm

Sorry, but the opinions of two scholars doesn't hold much water. I wouldn't expect two high profile established men to come out and scream "Death to America", as there has been far less of those people ever since we started blowing them up. I must tell you however including a Saudi Wahhabi was a nice touch. I wonder how many Lies we have gotten from such Saudis thru the years, the entire time Saudi Wahhabi's funded and fueled what turned out to be a vast world wide terror network.

Then again these may be two good, humane, sincere men speaking their piece. Of course there are many good men like that in Islam, nobody has to tell me that. Al Qaeda has targeted the House of Saud, so every high profile person in the kingdom has had to choose side. At least publicly. Hell, the Pope tell Catholics they cant divorce or live together outside marriage. You see how much weight one man can carry? Not much.

As far as Wahhabis are concerned, their position on such matters is pretty clear. From suicide bombings to killing of innocent from anywhere - very wrong and big sin.

But there is no way you can say Wahhabism was/is not the ideological fuel behind Islamic Fundamentalist terror. Theres no way you can say Wahhabis, their schools, and their fundraising machine, has not supported IF terror. Wahhabis are knee deep in terror and it doesn't matter who actually figured out the tactic of strapping a bomb onto a kid and sending them toddling off to murder others.

These are not "rag tag groups" either. They are well funded and organized networks with world wide reach.

Of course there is a ongoing battle for the soul of Islam. There actually has been ever since the time of Wahhab, who was himself denounced by many scholars of the day.http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-schwartz102501.shtml But the denouncement by a few men didn't stop the exportation of the Ideology. Most of all in modern times when it was funded by the vast resources of Saudi Arabia, and into many regions which were ripe for recruitment.

Its interesting you make reference to the beginnings of modern fundamentalist terror groups in the 60's and 70's and how they manifested out of anti-Government extremism in Arabic countries. You fail however to make the connection that said groups embraced Wahhabi teachings, or themselves were created as a by product of Wahhabi exportation. hasan al Banna, the founder of the Muslim brotherhood, was influenced by the Wahhabis. In fact when the brotherhood was being prosecuted in Muslim countries it was Saudi Arabia that gave many sanctuary where their movement influenced a young man named Osama Bin Laden.


http://english.russ.ru/politics/20011228.html
http://www.islamistwatch.org/intro/wahhabism/wahhabism_3.html
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/terror/article16.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5270

[Rich]

^Some of your comments about Muslims and the Muslim World comes off as being Bigoted.

Still waiting.

[radiosilence]

Still waiting.

Since you insist.
Your camel land comment as well as other comments.........

[Aussie Digger]

Didn't want to start a new thread. I was wondering, how are moderators selected? Whats the criteria and who is doing the selecting?

Webs is THE authority here (it's his website afterall). He chooses the moderators, based on our posting history, our professional qualifications (if any) and our attitude and willingness to undertake the job in as fair a manner as possible.

For new moderators "promoted" he or one of us usually proposes the person, we all discuss it and Webs makes it happen. How? I'm not savvy enough to know, but he does it.

With some pride I suppose, no moderator has yet been "removed" from the "office", either voluntarily or otherwise to date, AFAIK. I guess we're all doing a good enough job...

[WebMaster]

Thanks AD. That's pretty much the route we take when selecting a moderator.

Rich, I am not sure where you want to take this discussion. We can go all day digging up dirt on wahhabism from western sources... but all I know is that Al-Qaeda and this extremist/suicidal approach is ideology of Qutb-ud-Din scholar who was from Egypt. As far as I know, there is no relation between house of saud and abdul wahab nor is there any evidence from "wahhabi" sources that suggest such actions as suicide bombing, killing of innocent, etc. If you know, naming his book or some reference would be good at this time. There is also no evidence to suggest that Qutb-ud-din and Abdul Wahab are somehow related in intellect or ideology.

If you want to just bash Islam and Muslims, maybe we can do that on some other forum.

The links given by one of the members make it pretty clear as far as jihad, suicide bombing and their link with Islam is concerned but if you still have beef with that, then there is something wrong with you and information that you like to feed yourself with... information based on subjectivity is not the sole truth that you know.