Report: Canada without armed forces???

[The Watcher]

I haven't read all of it but talks about how Canadian armed forces capabilities are declining. And good guess is that canada's military wil disappear in next 10-15 years! :eek

Canada Without Armed Forces? (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4.html)

Introduction A National Crisis for the Next Government (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LIntro.pdf)

Chapter 1 The Fundamental of National Defence Policy Are Not Sound (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap1.pdf)

Chapter 2The Capital and the Future Force Crisis (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap2.pdf)

Chapter 3 The Personnel Crisis (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap3.pdf)

Chapter 4 The Gathering Defence Policy Crisis (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap4.pdf)

Chapter 5 A Summary of Major Findings (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap5.pdf)

Chapter 6 An Alternative Future (http://www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4/LChap6.pdf)

Not that it makes any difference as far as World security and Peace is concerned but still imagine if Canada's military goes HOW much military hardware will become available for countries who really want it. ;) :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

Canada is rapidly becoming the northern hemispheres version of New Zealand.

[umair]

Canada is rapidly becoming the northern hemispheres version of New Zealand.

Agreed! and this would ceartianly not be prudent in my opinion.

[gf0012-aust]

To partially paraphrase a proverb... we are living in an interesting time.

Its interesting for me as I believe that any future conflicts will start in Europe, and not in the middle east or asia minor.

Anybody with half a brain would be horrified at the prospect of having to go to war, the theoreticals are interesting, heaven forbid if it turns real.

Having seen people blown up and people die is not something that I care to see again.

To partially paraphrase another proverb, a gentleman keeps his sword visible. New Zealand is down to the empty scabbard stage - if they are not careful they will sell that too and end up as vulnerable as an unarmed traveller in a forest full of bears and other potentially hungry animals

[Winter]

Its interesting for me as I believe that any future conflicts will start in Europe, and not in the middle east or asia minor.

Hmm...I would've thought Eastern Europe for me....Specifically, that's where the US and NATO's rolling....

Anybody with half a brain would be horrified at the prospect of gaving to go to war, the theoreticals are intersting, heaven forbid if it turns real.

A very relevent quotation for these forums.

To partially paraphrase another proverb, a gentleman keeps his sword visible. New Zealand is down to the empty scabbard stage - if they are not careful they will sell that too and end up as vulnerable as an unarmed traveller in a forest full of bears and other potentially hungry animals

Yes...I believe they went crazy over the phrase 'benign strategic environment' apparently...Or something like that....For lack of the big picture I suppose... :roll

[Londo Molari]

Canada doesnt need an armed forces.

The presence of a force only results in the U.S. dragging us into wars we don't wish to participate in.

So without an armed force, we don't have to deal with such an issue.

Realistically, chances of Canada getting attacked conventionally are low... considering its proximity to the U.S.

Although it IS cool to have an armed force... something to be proud of...someone to shovel downtown toronto when it snows a lot :D

And Canada has a large defence R&D industry... so that encourages our military to stay alive.

[mysterious]

hey! where r u from dude? I know where u're hinting that thing at...lol 1999 Snow Storm that hit Toronto. I hope you know why the army was called in to clear out the snow. On a more serious note, Canada does need armed forces, specially now as it is emerging as a very strong economic force and is just alongside the US. Dont u think the US will start shoving its military shoulder into Canada and getting things done in its favor once Canada achieves a better position than US economically which I see wont take long.

[Winter]

hey! where r u from dude? I know where u're hinting that thing at...lol 1999 Snow Storm that hit Toronto. I hope you know why the army was called in to clear out the snow. On a more serious note, Canada does need armed forces, specially now as it is emerging as a very strong economic force and is just alongside the US. Dont u think the US will start shoving its military shoulder into Canada and getting things done in its favor once Canada achieves a better position than US economically which I see wont take long.

I do not think Canada will become economically dominant over the US just yet, Mysterious...The next superpower, if any, will arise on the other side of the world...I also wouldn't think the United States will 'start shoving it's military shoulder into Canada.' There is such a thing of diplomatic cooperation and friendship. ;)

[mysterious]

oh please man! dont tel me US doesnt shove its pride n eveything in to Canada's face. Mad-cow, US blames Canada. Black out, US blames Canada and there r soo many other things. As someone said "in politics, there are NO permanent friends, ONLY permanent interests". And obviously Canada has a good way to go to reach US economical status but its headed in the right direction.

[Winter]

oh please man! dont tel me US doesnt shove its pride n eveything in to Canada's face. Mad-cow, US blames Canada. Black out, US blames Canada and there r soo many other things. As someone said "in politics, there are NO permanent friends, ONLY permanent interests". And obviously Canada has a good way to go to reach US economical status but its headed in the right direction.

Mysterious...They're friends...Not enemies. Relatives live across the border, they share the same political ideals, a common defence system...And you're painting the relationships between the two as potentially bitter and hostile. But let's go layman's terms here. When is a country with scarcely 35 million people going to achieve and maintain an economy larger than that of the United States? 100 years? 200 years? They're not even aspiring to. There is no need. You're faking a scenario here.

[mysterious]

I'm just giving u my view man! wat is WRONG with you dude??? I thought people had a right to express their views n opinions on this forum. are u sleeping or something? :cop :cop

[Winter]

I'm just giving u my view man! wat is WRONG with you dude??? I thought people had a right to express their views n opinions on this forum. are u sleeping or something? :cop :cop

It's a discussion board, an international forum, mysterious. Opinions and ideals are debated. No, I'm not sleeping.

[mysterious]

true. no hard feelings. chill :smokingc:

[Revival_786]

btw, Canada has a very high GDP per capita (higher than UK, France, Japan, etc).

The extra money that would have gone to the military is going to health-care :)

[joker]

Its interesting for me as I believe that any future conflicts will start in Europe, and not in the middle east or asia minor.

Now that is interesting... GF could you pls. expand on the above. Thanks.

[Aussie Digger]

Canada won't completely get rid of it's armed forces, I shouldn't think. It will still probably maintain capabilities to take part in International peace keeping operations (as does New Zealand) and probably also a basic capability to evacuate foreign nationals from countries with a less "benign strategic situation" (which New Zealand doesn't really have). I doubt Canada would maintain much beyond this though, given that they are downsizing their warfighting capabilties (ie: reducing the number of CF-18's, getting rid of tanks completely etc).

[Aussie Digger]

I don't know where the next war will start. I can't see a war happening in Western Europe. Maybe Eastern Europe, though I dount the West would become involved immediately beyond a humanitarian crisis developing. They might evacuate foreign nationals, but unless a form of "ethinic cleansing" started I can't see any reason why Western nations would become involved. Africa is my tip for the next war. I can see a "commonwealth force" undertaking operations in Zimbabwe quite honestly. I think a bloodbath will occur when Mugabe leaves (or dies) and I think a Commonwealth force (UK, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada and maybe India as well) might be the force that sorts it out. The UN has proven time and time again that it is utterly useless in solving civil wars. Unfortunate as it may seem, unilateral action may become the catch phrase of the future as far as wars are concerned...

[mysterious]

To speak unbiasedly or frankly! In my opinion, (dont want to sound like an extremist or anything) the ONLY war I see coming is the clash of civilizations between Islam and the West!! I dont see people of any other race, religion, etc being humiliated, killed, plotted against, conspired against, their lands captured, etc other than Muslims. I think its all coming down to where its gona be a face off between Islam and the rest of the world. I just HOPE that it doesnt get to that as it will lead to nothing but chaos and devastation!! I just HOPE the neo-cons realize where they're leading the world. I just HOPE the WEST can hold back a little on trying to enforce its culture and society values up on the Muslim world which is VERY different. I've come to Canada from the subcontinent and I've noted as an individual without thinking that I'm a Muslim, Christian or whatever that there is NO way you can create a WEST in the Muslim world (even though Canada is still better than the US in terms of Moral behaviour and all I've noted)!! In the west, the latest religion is capitalism (and with it MONEY) and I dont think ANY Muslim state is willing to let that happen to themselves!

This is just an opinion so I hope I dont get aggravated replies to this! :smokingc:

[Gremlin29]

If there's a face off between the Muslim world and the west, the Muslim world will be hurtin for certain.

I was attached to the Canadian Air Force a few years back and I have much love and respect for the Canadian Armed Forces. Good people, highly motivated and so forth. That being said, Canada hasn't got much of a military to begin with. My aviation brigade had more aircraft than all of Canadian Armed Forces combined! They have no capabilities to project a military presence of consequence anywhere on their own. No disrespect inferred or intended, it's a simple fact.

Canada is unique anyway, it's proximity to the US, small population and large land mass preclude them from actually requiring a military force for national defense. So Canada is quite literally attached to the economic/social/national defense hip of the US wether Canadians like it or not. A day may come when Canada and the US unite, perhaps even with Mexico. !! The United State of North America!!

[joker]

AD I doubt the Commonwealth actually will launch an overt military intervention. If so then you can count out South Africa and India immediately. Canada and NZ will probably only provide their diplomatic and moral support. Which only leaves the Brits and you guys to bear the brunt of an invasion and with the state of British forces what with Afghanistan and Iraq I doubt the top brass will be in the mood for another adventure in the near future.

The most likely course of action would probably be to instigate a coup and have peace enforcers from Australia, UK (and probably a small contingent from SA) move in to fill in the vacuum and then hand over the security detail to the UN after 3 months. But this will only happen if and when both countries can sustain low intensity peace enforcement operations in yet in another zone of conflict. Until then Mugabe is not top of the priority list.

[umair]

I somehow feel that the worst problem the CW is facing nowadays is Zimbabwe and by default Mugabe.
This needs to be tackeled with and pronto.His regime's policies not now but in the future will severely affect the domestic situation of Zimbabwe's neighbours,most of whom are CW members.
I find my self agreeing with joker here AD.Many CW nations don't have the kind of force structure required for an intervention in Zimbabwe at present.Exceptions being GB,Australia,SA, Pakistan and India(both of whom have eachother's fish to fry for the moment) and of the rest ,Australia and GB are frying the Iraq fish right now whereas SA will in all probability refrain from such action.

[Aussie Digger]

I wouldn't be so sure about that Joker. They might if the UN became rather indecisive about a bloodbath taking place. A precedent has been set and I think you'll find more "unilateral" actions taking place in future. A peace enforcement role is precisely the type of operation I envisage occurring, perhaps after the mode of East Timor? The forces required for such an operation would mostly comprise light motorised infantry, with perhaps a vanguard of more capable mechanised troops to deal with any "real" fighting. Most Commonwealth Countries possess significant amounts of these types of forces and most have significant historical ties to Zimbabwe. In addition, the UK and India have already worked together in a similar operation in Sierra Lione and I can't see any reason why either country wouldn't take part in another should the need arise. I doubt Commonwealth countries would be willing to stand by and watch another "Rwanda" take place these days. A full infantry Company from my old battalion (2/4 RAR) was ordered not to become involved in a massacre which occurred in Kibeho in 1994 when roughly 10,000 people were shot and macheted to death in a single day. That infantry company could have saved thousands of lives, but was ordered not to by "UN commanders" as they were there as a "peace-keeping force". Friends of mine have nightmares to this day about that and other similar incidents. I don't think such a thing would be allowed to happen these days. Certainly not if any Australian Commanders were in a position to do something about it, and I would guess that would go for most Commonwealth forces...