New Report Concludes Defence Logistics 'Too Prone to Failure'

[Ths]

I have a question:

Has the world progressed between 1 level inventory modelling?

In my day day the way to handle multilevel inventories was to simulate; but that is 25 years ago. Has the world progressed?

[Aussie Digger]

I have a question:

Has the world progressed between 1 level inventory modelling?

In my day day the way to handle multilevel inventories was to simulate; but that is 25 years ago. Has the world progressed?

Yes I believe they have a machine that counts blankets now in Australia, rather than the old way of doing it by hand... :onfloorl:

Only joking, sorry.

Cheers

AD.

[rickshaw]

Yes I believe they have a machine that counts blankets now in Australia, rather than the old way of doing it by hand... :onfloorl:

Only joking, sorry.

Cheers

AD.

Counting is only half the task. Do they yet have a machine that fold, stack and tie bundles? It would have saved me a lot of work as a young digger! ;)

There doesn't appear to be much push for logistics simulation in the miltiary sphere that I've discovered. I became interested in it when I saw a Log officer and a Truckie's officer on one CPX pushing their kids' toy trucks around a hand-drawn diagram spread on a table to try and figure out what was going where and when it would arrive/depart. Personally, I suspect it would be a bit of a "killer-app" as we say in the IT business if someone was to write a good little database system to simulate such matters.

[Ths]

It is a constant source of wonder to me, why military logistics hasn't progressed further.

All generals scream that it is the most important thing - and yet they use transport btn's as a garbage bin for officers they don't trust with an infantry company.

I seem to have read somewhere that the Maersk 17 crewed super shoe-box mover do actually sort the boxes underway. If civilian logistics has improved to that point - why is the military still stuck with what they've got?

Case in point:
1. The Falklands war way a logistic disaster - among other things putting the rapiers in the bottom of the ship.
2. The US Army - which perhaps has the best logistic - was still critisised for failure to get the right parts there on time.
3. The "new" accounting and inventory system of the Danish forces had old depot staff turning in their resignation.

Simulation is one thing - and it goes some way; but it should be an obvious target for research grants for some math genious to make a multilevel inventory model. I'm not searching for the optimum solution - I just want to get out of the present misery.

[Mick73]

Yes, I agree with your point on the Falklands war. Logistics certainly were a problem. My thoughts on that case are, there seemed to be a large amount of friction between unit (hat badge rivalry). Considering the the threat to the task force was, at first was a possible naval encounter. Until the sinking of the Argentinians ship Bel Grano (spelling). The next treat was going to be from the air. Extra Air Defence provided to the troop ships were crew served GPMG's and Manpads. Of coarse the RN did have SAM's on there fighting ships, but they proved to not really suitable for the Sth Atlantic sea's.
So why would you place a vital pieces of your limited AD that close to back of the stack (so to speak).
I believe that confilct showed the problems with logistics in the UK Military.
I myself was part of Op Lagoon in 94, the failed peacekeeping op in Bougainville. Where we to had similar problems of logistic support. Besides the political issue that made the Op fail was the lack of logistics to force to warring sides to join the peace table.
Transport was very limited for the Op and what we had is what we took with us.
Tac Air assets included:
4 S70A-9's
3 Seaking's
2 DHC-4's
Ground assets included
a Troop from 9 Tpt Sqn.
a small fleet of Landcrusier.
And some sub unit vehicles form Landrover GS to 6x6 troop carriers.

The problem with this was that most if not all ground transport assets stayed in Arawa. The air assets were the only link to the 3 Platoon groups that went out to the remote locations.
A lose of one of these aircraft would of been a major problem for the deployed platoons as the BRA had a large number of troops in those three areas as it was air lifting my platoon at the end of the deployment required two lifts. If the attacks planned had been done we would of been in big trouble. As the BRA did have HMG's and 40mm Bofars (I saw two of these towed units) in which the take out the air support.
As this was deemed a low risk operation, this later proved to almost be a bloody balls up in large doses. At the same time we had deployed troops the Rwanda. Logistics were one factor that made this Op fail.
A case study was written on this operation and it did detail the gaps in ship to shore operations. This was over 10 years ago and still we will be waiting another 8-10 years before this problem is addressed.
In my last years in the ADF I heard all of these fancy words like, Matrix, Risk assesments etc. It truely suprises me that nothing really has changed.
In todays high operation tempo world in which we live, you would think logictics would improving.
Rant over!

[rickshaw]

Part of the problem is that the ADF has basically allowed its logistics to go to pot. With the massive out-sourcing of roles in the mid-1990s, a lot of logistics people were basically sacked. Today, there are simply not sufficient people in the system to make it work. They are scrabbling to find any spare bods each time a new deployment occurs. They've been drawing on the ARes for some time and even now they are finding it difficult. Civvie contractors won't go where the shooting is and that is where you need the loggies to work. Perhaps instead of recruiting a new infantry battalion they should consider building a supply battalion?

I understand the Poms are doing some interesting work with RFID systems - basically to help them determine what is where in the LOC. Each "item" has an RFID button attached. This is scanned by a handheld scanner and packed into a container. The container in turn has another RFID button attached. The containers move past "gateways" along the LOC and this data is then transmitted to a central repository. It should then be able to determine exactly where the parts for x, y and z are at any given point in time.

[Mick73]

Maybe bringing back the idea that broken arms corps members who can still do a job can go to RAAOC/RACT units. Seeing that log units are been attacked just as line units are, having ex inf etc would give those units a bit of punch if a situation came about.
I know this won't go over well with RAINF blokes but drawing on the idea of bringing RAAOC members into RAINF units, thus bringing the two elements together for a smooth logistic approach. Using FE/CAT1 members of RAAOC units and giving them the chance to work with line units for more expirence.
Maybe merging RAAOC and RACT together for a similar smooth running of logistics. One member been Driver qualified and ordance qualified would mean having the storeman/driver capable of dealing with many problems at one time. Thus doubling the manpowers when one is needed more than another.
I guess a corps of old "RASC" would be a good base model to look at but multi-trained from the ground up.
So sub units form a support bn could basicly be jack of all trades and have other skills to draw on. Break it down into different areas i.e. Pet ops, ammo techs and stores type areas. then break those sub unit into levels 1,2,3,4 and 5 would be Civvies Contractors.
Level 1 would be Coy/Sqn/Bty support
Level 2 would be Bn/Regt support
Level 3 would be Bde support
Level 4 could be the link between RAN/RAAF unit and the army
Level 5 could be civvy line support between suppliers and ADF
Using new and old vehicles plus a COTS parcel tracking systems (with a few mil mods for labeling). Have a similar level for the RAN/RAAF with user end mods per service. Could be a useful way of improving logistics.

Let the baggings of this idea begin!!:D

[Ths]

We have the same problem in Denmark:

After the engagements in ex-Yugoslavia, where there appears to have been a royal mess, it was decided that the transport units from the cold war wasn't really up to the job - they are in charge of the Military Police units as well!!!
Then they got the money and facilities for setting up a bataillion explicitly for the logistic for international ops.

Officers in Afghanistan have to write to their mums to get warm underwear! (source confidential) Mummy then approach her good aquaintance - a member of parliament, that give the secretary of defence hell - then- and only then - do they get their standard issue warm underwear.
Ok they might have survived having their private parts in the freezer; but if such a simple thing goes wrong, what will happen to chopper spare parts????

When you buy a four poster bed from IKEA for your own assembly, they get all the annoying little fastners in the little plastic bag, because otherwise a very infuriated husband - having been thoroughly rediculed by wife - will show up with very limited sense of humour.

What really bothers me is the continued lack of interest - nothing in this is difficult, any teenage producemanager in a supermarket can do it - dispite the official rant - as you say.

[rickshaw]

Maybe bringing back the idea that broken arms corps members who can still do a job can go to RAAOC/RACT units. Seeing that log units are been attacked just as line units are, having ex inf etc would give those units a bit of punch if a situation came about.
I know this won't go over well with RAINF blokes but drawing on the idea of bringing RAAOC members into RAINF units, thus bringing the two elements together for a smooth logistic approach. Using FE/CAT1 members of RAAOC units and giving them the chance to work with line units for more expirence.


I was Inf who went to Ord. I did it basically 'cause I found Inf. boring as batshit. Ord. was much more challenging and I'd also say rewarding. In Inf. once you learn the basics, thats it, you just practice them over and over. In Ord. once you learn the basics, you learn the intermediates and then the advanced. You get bored, you change streams.

However, I have to admit, being Inf. gave me a considerable advantage over my Ord. fellow members.


Maybe merging RAAOC and RACT together for a similar smooth running of logistics.


Heresy! Heresy! Burn the heretic! :lol: This was what was lamented when RAASC was broken up and made into RACT and the rest given to RAAOC. It makes good sense and its interesting to see that the Poms have realised it and abolished most of their logistic-type corps and make them into one corps the Royal Logistics Corps. The divide between transport and supply functions is artificial and it tells against the smooth running of the LOC IMO.


One member been Driver qualified and ordance qualified would mean having the storeman/driver capable of dealing with many problems at one time. Thus doubling the manpowers when one is needed more than another.


Actually, this isn't so much of a problem. The problem lies in empire building - particularly amongst the truckies in my experience - and the difficulties of having split lines of authority for essentially the one function. It makes the tasking of transport difficult, more difficult than it needs to be. AIUI from discussion with old diggers, they had few of the problems that are usually encountered with dealing with the truckies union (RACT) when it was all RAASC.


I guess a corps of old "RASC" would be a good base model to look at but multi-trained from the ground up.


Exactly. They've made the attempt of a creating a pseudo one with the BASBies. However its been a half-hearted attempt and not terribly successful apparently because of intercorps rivalries.


So sub units form a support bn could basicly be jack of all trades and have other skills to draw on. Break it down into different areas i.e. Pet ops, ammo techs and stores type areas. then break those sub unit into levels 1,2,3,4 and 5 would be Civvies Contractors.
Level 1 would be Coy/Sqn/Bty support
Level 2 would be Bn/Regt support
Level 3 would be Bde support
Level 4 could be the link between RAN/RAAF unit and the army
Level 5 could be civvy line support between suppliers and ADF


This basically already exists with the concept of "lines" - 1st line, 2nd line, etc. Has for as long as I can remember. However the lines of support are:

1st line - within a given unit
2nd line - next highest formation
3rd line - next highest formation again
4th line - next highest formation again

There is basically nothing beyond 4th line which is usually at the national level as far as Oz is concerned.


Using new and old vehicles plus a COTS parcel tracking systems (with a few mil mods for labeling). Have a similar level for the RAN/RAAF with user end mods per service. Could be a useful way of improving logistics.

Let the baggings of this idea begin!!:D

Not baggings, so much as correcting. You've basically hit upon what is already being done. The problem is basically the lack of uniformed personnel to support it. Its all gone out to civvie contractor, which is fine in peacetime but pointless in wartime. Just before Timor, they were seriously talking about making the military logistics system all civvie contractor. :roll:

[Mick73]

My idea was for RAASC storeman to in each unit at Coy level, then at Bn level and so on up the line to the next major RAASC unit. Supply is what they do and having them in place right up the line would bring smoother supply disribution, Same with the truckies. Having them in the same corp might upset some but ego's will change in time. Medic's have done this for years with Bn's etc and you be surprised when dealing with your own kind, what you can get done just by having the same corps badge. Exp'd Medic go to Bn's and it gives the jubes something to what for. Same could work for RAAOC and RACT. This in house inf approach witha token RAAOC offircer in the main Q doesn't work. I tneeds to be from the ground up.
When I was in 2RAR it was easier to get things from other Q stores when dealing with mates or blokes from ya own corps.
I think the main problem with our system is as you said intercorps rivalries. The first step for fixing the system would be learning from the people at the bottom end of the chain what the problems are, using that info for short term fixes, spit balling of ideas and sitting down the solve the problems , before introducing a longer term fix. But it has to be done from the bottom up, higher level changes don't mean shit to the bottom of the chain. There are a lot of smart digs out there who have great ideas that never get heard.
It surprises me that some of the higher level officers can even organise a trip down to the shops on a Thursday night with the wife.
It shouldn't be that hard to get something changed, if it isn't done by some numb nut in government trying to get the glory.
Rant over

[Mick73]

Example of an idea is coming for a Inf Bn and use what I call Level/Line 1 and 2.
Basicly using Admin Coy and BHQ. Leaving a small Bn Tac HQ plus the 3 Rifle Coys + Spt Coy as RAINF.It would do a few things:
1. Reduce the emought of different badges running around a given Bn.
2. Make it possible for females to deploy with a Bn (let face it women think better outside the box).
3. Give the non combat members something the work for as a postition in a Bn or Regt would be regarded as a choice posting.
4. Gives broken or bored Infantry guys somewhere else to go. When the time comes (A little old school thinking here).

My idea would be able to be applied to other units such as Cav, Arty or Engineers etc.
Using the ALTC/BASB concept but doing it all the way through to the units.
RAAOC,RAADC,RACT,RAEME,RAAMC could possibly be all put into a Royal Australian Army Logistics Corps. Trades stay the same but hat badge changes (add a cloth patch to the arm for history aspects). Gives members of the new RAALC a chance for stream changes and not corps tranfer.
Next step would be find out what a given unit needs in the way of Log support and take it from there.
Some would be opposed to this merge but it has to change. We might have a small Army but there is no reason why we couldn't have first class logitics to make the most of our combat strengh by supplying them well.
Oh and goodbye to the civvies....Level 5 support only, keep them at home.