Iraqs pre-war euipment

[Big-E]

Is there anything left of Iraqs old equipment. We couldn't have destroyed everything could we?

[mysterious]

The last I heard, some Migs survived. They were being made operational if I remember correctly, though not sure about it. Tanks? Not too sure if anything apart from a handful T-72s survived?

[contedicavour]

It is also very likely that whatever heavy material that survived (from MBTs to MIGs) was sabotaged or left without any maintenance for long enough to make it beyond economically viable repair...

cheers

[Boolag]

Is there anything left of Iraqs old equipment. We couldn't have destroyed everything could we?

I gather the U.S. military was quite efficient at using anthing with wings + Iraqi insignia for target practice..Even rare Hawker fury piston engined fighters recieved "special attention" from bored U.S. troops..What a waste.:(

[contedicavour]

I gather the U.S. military was quite efficient at using anthing with wings + Iraqi insignia for target practice..Even rare Hawker fury piston engined fighters recieved "special attention" from bored U.S. troops..What a waste.:(

What you say reminds me that in recent missions (from Somalia to Afghanistan to Lebanon...) Italian personnel have come across real museum pieces that should have been preserved. I'll just give one example : in Kabul airport troops found 1930s RO-37 biplane fighters/reconnaissance planes still in good condition. These birds were used for recon purposes aboard Italian WW2 cruisers and battleships.
A bit off-topic, sorry, but when it comes to preserving historical assets there isn't only Mesopotamian archeology ;)

cheers

[PlasmaKrab]

I've seen numerous pics of post-war (the latest) Irraqi troops on fully-functional T-72s and such. They had good quantities of decent equipment left after ODS, so my guess is that they could refurbish and upgrade their old stuff first thing.
Come to think about it, those T-72s and BMPs they were showing off could just as well have been donated by some Eastern-Europe coalition country... Go figure.

[swerve]

A lot of stuff survived the war intact, but when the old Iraqi army was dissolved, much of what was in their depots went missing. Small arms, ammo, explosives, RPGs - well, we know what happened to them :sick . A lot of heavy stuff was transported over the border & sold as scrap, & has since been fed into Iranian steel mills. The wrecked stuff, of course, but also quite a lot of runners. Quantities? Who knows?

[robsta83]

Come to think about it, those T-72s and BMPs they were showing off could just as well have been donated by some Eastern-Europe coalition country... Go figure.

According to wikipedia, in this case which I think is credible enough alot of them were, 77 T-72's and a couple of hundred APCs were donated or sold new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Iraqi_Army#Equipment

[robsta83]

Is there anything left of Iraqs old equipment. We couldn't have destroyed everything could we?

According to wiki they found 4 t-55's which suggest it couldn't of been much as that is all they mention,

And the Aussie SAS found a half dozen buried aircraft as well Mig 25's IIRC on top of the other mentioned aircraft

[Manfred]

I for one think that the Iraqi Army should be partly equiped with US vehicles and weapons, for a variety of reasons.
1) morale and prestige
2) the forst Iraq war was where we showed the world how 2nd rate Soviet equipmnet was
3) we want then to win

That was off topic, so its breif.

the trouble with the big stuff (planes, tanks and ships) is that you just can't park it and walk away, the stuff needs regular maintenance and it just was not getting it, even before we invaded. They had thousands of tanks when I was there in 1991, I doubt that more than a few dozen reamain in operational condition.

[PlasmaKrab]

[off-topic]To go on slightly on the off-topic road, I'd say that predominantly, visibly US hardware in Iraqi Security hands would add to the argument that they are 'lackeys of the imperialists' or whatever (sorry for the odd cold war jargon, I'm three wars late...). For that reason (OK, that's spurious and possibly counter-productive), getting f.e. Jordanian from-the-box surplus as they did sounds a better idea.[/off-topic]

Now about T-72s and stuff, I guess that refurbishing and upgrading their own surplus would have been a better option if they hadn't had all these coalition countries happy to hand over heaps of cold war surplus for free.

[contedicavour]

I've just read on an Italian defense review that Iraq has ordered more than 1,500 light vehicles from Turkey and the US (Hummer-type vehicles).
Their navy has ordered some big patrol ships from Italian shipyards.

I guess there will be several new build deals, besides the donations of surplus Cold War era material. Besides, what use would this material have against urban guerrillas ? Roadblocks or heavy fire, yes, but you can't just delete entire blocks with gunfire to get guerrillas out, as Coalition troops are unfortunately realizing... :(

[Aussie Digger]

According to wiki they found 4 t-55's which suggest it couldn't of been much as that is all they mention,

And the Aussie SAS found a half dozen buried aircraft as well Mig 23's IIRC on top of the other mentioned aircraft

The Australian SASR found 50 buried aircraft in Iraq, including MiG-25's, it was by far the largest cache of arms located in Iraq. They tried to bring one of the wrecked MiG-25's home for the Australian War Memorial, but Foreign Affairs wouldn't allow it.

Pity. The aircraft was wrecked and will never fly again, but would have made a tremendous static exhibit...

[robsta83]

The Australian SASR found 50 buried aircraft in Iraq, including MiG-25's, it was by far the largest cache of arms located in Iraq. They tried to bring one of the wrecked MiG-25's home for the Australian War Memorial, but Foreign Affairs wouldn't allow it.

Pity. The aircraft was wrecked and will never fly again, but would have made a tremendous static exhibit...

Mig 25 doh! Thanks for the correction, and wow I had no idea it was fifty, nice work by our lads indeed. Yeah the whole sovenir issue comes into play I guess, still the Iraqi gov could still give us one now if we asked maybe :)

[Manfred]

I am just a little surprised that the Iraqi Army is buying so many Humvees, considering how badly they keep getting shot-up in ambushes.

if memory serves me right, South Africa developed some excellent anti-ambush vehicles and weapons, particularly lightly armored APCs that were safe to me inside and east to fix after driving over mines.

I'm sure one of you gentlemen can point me the right way here...

[Waylander]

We don't know which kind of Humvees.
And every army needs light and cheap off road vehicles you should just not use them for patrols.
I would also prefer some Dingos over Humvees every time for patrol duties. This year one of them rolled over an anti tank mine in Afghanistan and no one inside was even scratched.

[PlasmaKrab]

There are chances that the Humvees involved are uparmored, since a regular Humvee is nothing but soft-skin and a deathtrap in case of shoot-out.
It is true that a vehicle better suited to resist mines and IEDs may be something to consider.
Manfred, you were probably thinking about vehicles from Reumech (http://www.baesystemsomc.co.za/Default.aspx?tabid=651) or such? They are part of BAe Land Systems now, so it shouldn't be too much of a political problem.

[contedicavour]

Mig 25 doh! Thanks for the correction, and wow I had no idea it was fifty, nice work by our lads indeed. Yeah the whole sovenir issue comes into play I guess, still the Iraqi gov could still give us one now if we asked maybe :)

The Foxbat's manoeuvrability was so limited (only priority was speed at Mach 3) that against large numbers of USAF, USN and USMC Super Hornets and Eagles it was just useless. I understand why Iraq didn't use it after all...
Besides, its main weapon was the AA6 Acrid, with a range inferior to AIM120, and semi-active guidance.
Though sure it belongs more in a museum than buried under the sand, what a waste :D

cheers

[contedicavour]

We don't know which kind of Humvees.
And every army needs light and cheap off road vehicles you should just not use them for patrols.
I would also prefer some Dingos over Humvees every time for patrol duties. This year one of them rolled over an anti tank mine in Afghanistan and no one inside was even scratched.

Honestly I wonder what vehicle is really safe from mines and anti-tank missiles guerrillas have... In Iraq and Afghanistan even MBTs ended up badly hit, and our troops weren't necessarily safer in armoured 6x6 Puma AIFVs than in our brand new VTLM (a IVECO vechile developed on the same philosophy as the later versions of the Humvee)

cheers

[Waylander]

Fore sure there is no safe vehicle if you just use enough explosives.
But in the end special designed vehicles like the anti mine/IED versions of some tanks and IFVs and the special vehicles like Dingos are for sure safer than other vehicles.

[PlasmaKrab]

Apparently mine-resisting designs like the Mamba or even the Canadian Piranhas have actually saved lives in several peacekeeping operations. Try to find out more about the Canadians' operations in Somalia, you should see what they think about V-shaped hulls and wheeled vehicles!